NFL rules / officials

[RiverDog]

Judgement calls will always mean someone is felt to be wronged. It's the nature of us humans to think like that.

In my mind, it's not the judgement that's in question. My question/complaint is about the administration of the replay process. The rules are that it's only supposed to take 60 seconds to come to a decision. Why did it take so long, and why didn't someone pull the plug on the sets and say "That's enough. Time to chit or get off the toilet."

[NorthHawk]

Maybe New York was in on the call and extended the time, but does it really matter other than slowing the game down?

[Hawktawk]

Maybe New York was in on the call and extended the time, but does it really matter other than slowing the game down?

New York is on every replay . It’s a huge problem . Some dude 4 k miles away overrules 2 guys standing right on top of the play . If it takes 4 minutes it’s not clear . If it takes 1 minute it’s not clear . If no angle clearly shows a reason to change you stay with the call . Some dudes in New York broke their own rules to take the ball away from Seattle . Biased down the stretch . Zero trust with a game on the line .

[RiverDog]

Maybe New York was in on the call and extended the time, but does it really matter other than slowing the game down?

It's a rule. If it "doesn't really matter", then they need to get rid of it. But they've shortened the review time from 90 seconds to the current 60 seconds, so I assume that the league thinks that it does matter, or at least they did at one time.

[RiverDog]

Judgement calls will always mean someone is felt to be wronged. It's the nature of us humans to think like that.

A lot of things didn't go our way and I wasn't happy with the officiating, either. But the bottom line is that we were in a position to win the game and didn't get it done. You're not going to win a lot of games in a run first offense when your feature running back gains less than 2 yards a carry.

[c_hawkbob]

A lot of things didn't go our way and I wasn't happy with the officiating, either. But the bottom line is that we were in a position to win the game and didn't get it done. You're not going tor win a lot of games in a run first offense when your feature running back gains less than 2 yards a carry.

Your bottom line is OK but in the end our primary reason for losing was our run defense, not our run offense. Our run defense was atrocious (again) and I really don't think it's a personnel issue as much as a coaching issue. Our gap responsibility is our greatest problem (and our tackling is second). If you're going to run a 3-4 there is nothing more important to your stopping the run than gap responsibility. Both that and poor tackling are coaching issues.

[Aseahawkfan]

Your bottom line is OK but in the end our primary reason for losing was our run defense, not our run offense. Our run defense was atrocious (again) and I really don't think it's a personnel issue as much as a coaching issue. Our gap responsibility is our greatest problem (and our tackling is second). If you're going to run a 3-4 there is nothing more important to your stopping the run than gap responsibility. Both that and poor tackling are coaching issues.

I don't know how many years of bad run defense have to continue to occur before the fans realize that we have personnel weaknesses on the D-line leading to the bad run defense and the lack of a pass rush. How long can we keep blaming the coaching when it has been multiple years of bad D-line play? We need better D-line personnel. You can't coach average talent to greatness. You can maybe coach them to shore up a game or two or do well against weak teams. But if you want to be great on the D-line, draft some great personnel that when coached up can handle everything thrown at them and win their gap battles and their pass rushing matchups.

[RiverDog]

A lot of things didn't go our way and I wasn't happy with the officiating, either. But the bottom line is that we were in a position to win the game and didn't get it done. You're not going tor win a lot of games in a run first offense when your feature running back gains less than 2 yards a carry.

Your bottom line is OK but in the end our primary reason for losing was our run defense, not our run offense. Our run defense was atrocious (again) and I really don't think it's a personnel issue as much as a coaching issue. Our gap responsibility is our greatest problem (and our tackling is second). If you're going to run a 3-4 there is nothing more important to your stopping the run than gap responsibility. Both that and poor tackling are coaching issues.

I didn't say that our lack of a running offense was the primary reason for our loss. What I said was that you're not going to win a lot of games in a run first offense when your feature running back gains less than 2 yards a carry, and I'm pretty sure that's a true statement.

If I had to weight the reasons for our losses, I would agree with you that our run defense would get the lion's share of the blame. After all, the last play of the game was an 85 yard TD run.

[Hawktawk]

Your bottom line is OK but in the end our primary reason for losing was our run defense, not our run offense. Our run defense was atrocious (again) and I really don't think it's a personnel issue as much as a coaching issue. Our gap responsibility is our greatest problem (and our tackling is second). If you're going to run a 3-4 there is nothing more important to your stopping the run than gap responsibility. Both that and poor tackling are coaching issues.

I didn't say that our lack of a running offense was the primary reason for our loss. What I said was that you're not going to win a lot of games in a run first offense when your feature running back gains less than 2 yards a carry, and I'm pretty sure that's a true statement.

If I had to weight the reasons for our losses, I would agree with you that our run defense would get the lion's share of the blame. After all, the last play of the game was an 85 yard TD run.

There was no primary reason we lost. We couldn't stop the run but we couldn't stop the pass either despite keying on it in preparations for the game. Ive been as big a defender of Pete the coach as anyone but weve been outcoached the last 2 games. And we have a bigger problem at safety than any other position. Diggs got the picks but cant erase. Neal cant stay on the field and its a completely different defense without him. That Jones guy is awful and cant be put back on the field. Jacobs smoked him on that last run. As KJ said pre season safety play will determine our defense. We have no Adams and Diggs isn't right and neither is Neal.

The run game, specifically K9 has collapsed. And he was trending down, held to just over 50 vs NY, battled to get to 100 vs Cards then nowhere last 2 other than 2 TDs which is huge of course but its not a good tradeoff. Not sure what happened on the red zone fumble but it looked like Walker wasn't even expecting the ball there. Hes run the wrong way on handoffs at least 3 times thins season as well. The run on the OT possession was an absolute critical waste of a down on a guy who had not done a god damn thing outside the 10 all day. His win rate is dead last among qualifying backs.

We turned it over twice, that weird pick I dont even know what happened. Not sure anyone did.

And then we had the ball twice to win. Got a progress stopped call as well but they called it. First possession to win is on Geno Smith. Nice start then bounce it to Lockett. Then the big throw to DK that was low and forced him to dig it out. I think we got Fed on the call but Oh well. Geno said he doesn't blame the refs, said he should have thrown a better ball. Stand up guy but when you're always having to be a stand up guy your losing games.
Our much maligned D GETS A STOP IN OT AND HANDS US THE BALL AT MIDFIELD. That's where hindsight is 2020. second and 5 play action boot run or pass or maybe that out and up to Lockett and your in FG range. Instead hand it off to K9 the dog .Zero gain .3rd and 5 they know what's coming and Crosby smokes Lucas. I've noticed a pattern in these late game losses. The sacks come late in the games as these rooks get worn down. Not sure we dont need more check down valves for Geno but sacked 3 times and HIT 10 more as Carr was sacked once and pressured 4 times.

In the end Geno was good but not great and hes going to need to go to that great level if this inconsistent defense is going to be this bad. We could lose them all.

[NorthHawk]

34 points is good enough to win. You shouldn’t have to score 42.
The Defensive game plan was wrong if Pete accurately depicted it as them trying to stop Adams and not concerning
themselves as much about the run. After being gouged by the Bucs they should have worked to shore that
part up. It was what caused us to lose, not Geno or the Offense even if we couldn’t effectively run.

[Hawktawk]

34 points is good enough to win. You shouldn’t have to score 42.
The Defensive game plan was wrong if Pete accurately depicted it as them trying to stop Adams and not concerning
themselves as much about the run. After being gouged by the Bucs they should have worked to shore that
part up. It was what caused us to lose, not Geno or the Offense even if we couldn’t effectively run.

What you mean is it SHOULD be enough to win . I wasn’t happy with losing to Atlanta at home scoring 23. Furious losing to the saints scoring 32 . Nauseated by last Sunday . But sometimes even great teams , great defenses have a rough day and offense has to bail them out to be great , to be a team that can make noise . You win no matter what . I love Geno . I don’t think he can’t get it done in the end . But he didn’t last Sunday with it on a silver platter for him no matter how bad he got his ass beat. He needed 20 yards or less . Love him but he needs to check that box .

[RiverDog]

34 points is good enough to win. You shouldn’t have to score 42.
The Defensive game plan was wrong if Pete accurately depicted it as them trying to stop Adams and not concerning
themselves as much about the run. After being gouged by the Bucs they should have worked to shore that
part up. It was what caused us to lose, not Geno or the Offense even if we couldn’t effectively run.

I agree. If you can't win a game in the NFL by scoring 34 points, then you have a problem with your defense. Like I said, I'd give the lion's share of the blame to our run defense.

It's just that Pete Ball is dependent on a good running game to eat up clock and dominate TOP so that the defense isn't exposed. 65 yards of rushing, and just 26 yards from your featured back, combined with a suspect defense that can't stop the run, is a recipe for disaster.

[NorthHawk]

We’re not playing Peteball as we’ve known it this year.
It’s not just a run first Offense, it’s a very conservative non imaginative Offense with limited deception
and pre snap motion along with limiting runs to mostly between the Tackles amongst other themes from the
70’s and 80’s.

This year we are actually varying our sets and uses of TE’s instead of making them inline blockers along with
pressuring the edges of the Defenses we’re facing. Plus other different looks.

[RiverDog]

We’re not playing Peteball as we’ve known it this year.
It’s not just a run first Offense, it’s a very conservative non imaginative Offense with limited deception
and pre snap motion along with limiting runs to mostly between the Tackles amongst other themes from the
70’s and 80’s.

This year we are actually varying our sets and uses of TE’s instead of making them inline blockers along with
pressuring the edges of the Defenses we’re facing. Plus other different looks.

OK, call it what you like. My point is that you're not going to win very many NFL games when your feature running back gains 26 yards. Do you disagree?

It's a huge concern, especially when you couple it with a weak defense. We had been doing a very good job in the running game whether it was Penny or Walker packing the rock. Now, we've gone two straight games getting completely shut down by teams with defenses that aren't that strong against the run. What's wrong? Have teams figured us out? One game is an anomaly, two is a trend.

[Hawktawk]

This year we are actually varying our sets and uses of TE’s instead of making them inline blockers along with
pressuring the edges of the Defenses we’re facing. Plus other different looks.

OK, call it what you like. My point is that you're not going to win very many NFL games when your feature running back gains 26 yards. Do you disagree?

It's a huge concern, especially when you couple it with a weak defense. We had been doing a very good job in the running game whether it was Penny or Walker packing the rock. Now, we've gone two straight games getting completely shut down by teams with defenses that aren't that strong against the run. What's wrong? Have teams figured us out? One game is an anomaly, two is a trend.[/quote]


We lost our mojo in the mudhole at 6 AM.................
JK
sort of
I discount Munich as it pertains to Walker. Its not a bad field style that he plays. Too much lateral movement .As Carroll pointed out he fell down cutting at least 3 times.

Teams are learning to be disciplined and not provide cutback lanes. He had a number of plays Sunday that were close to breakaway runs but close doesn't count. As I say he is currently dead last among qualifying backs in win rate. Worn down? beat up? Blythe isn't the run blocker we need and got railed a few times along with the entire line. Ken is patient to a fault waiting for this hole to magically appear and at some point you have to put your head down and just go. But its a problem if you cant run. Its remarkable we couldn't run, turned it over twice, couldn't control the clock by getting stops and we still scored 34 points. The offense has 40 point potential on a weekly basis if we can run and hold on to the damn ball.

We obviously miss Penny. in his 11 starts his worst game was 40 yards vs the Rams splitting carries with Dee Jay. He was over 100 8 times and averaged over 6 YPC.

Walker isn't Penny yet. I hope he can get somewhere close. But if Penny recovers I want to give him another look next year.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think Penny would make a difference.
When the holes aren't there, he wouldn't get much, either.
If anything, Walker should do better because he's quicker and has better lateral skills, but without good blocking up front, no RB will do particularly well.

[NorthHawk]

OK, call it what you like. My point is that you're not going to win very many NFL games when your feature running back gains 26 yards. Do you disagree?

Of course not. A good run game is part of a balanced Offense. It's not as if we are now embracing a Coryell throw it into triple coverage Offense and damn the run,
but it is a much more imaginative Offense that has elements of deception and varied options for both the run game and pass game. Teams can no longer look at a
particular formation and know what we are going to do as they could with Peteball.

[Hawktawk]

I don't think Penny would make a difference.
When the holes aren't there, he wouldn't get much, either.
If anything, Walker should do better because he's quicker and has better lateral skills, but without good blocking up front, no RB will do particularly well.

It’s a moot point because Penny is gone . I just saw a couple weeks ago we were thinking Walker was better . Pennys CAREER ypc when getting it 10 or more times is 6.1 . Speaks for itself . His style was slippery , get skinny and explode north and south . No juking to speak of . Shifty , not juking around chopping his feet . It’s not all on the line . They didn’t protect Geno either and he had a pretty good game . K 9 is living up to his namesake in a bad way right now .I was leaning towards the belief Walker might be an improvement but no way , not yet . Not after the last 2 games . Bad timing . No Aaron Donald so no excuses . I didn’t see last week as a trap game . I saw it as a tough game and sure enough . Rams is a trap game . Everyone’s hurt . They aren’t sure who is starting at QB. 3 wins. Referees darlings at Sofi .

This is a must win or forget 2022.

[NorthHawk]

For me, anything more than a development year is a bonus this year.
I know the players don't look at it like that, but young players have to experience a lot before they can reach their true potential, so we are well on our way.
Unfortunately, we still have some areas of concern including the interior of the OL - specifically Center and RG and deciding what personnel we need to play
a 3-4 Defense. I'm not sure we have the right mix of players along the DL to fit the scheme they want to play. We also need a #3 WR. Someone who maybe
in the future could become a #2 WR when Lockett decides it's time to retire. As well, we have to decide what we are going to do at QB for the long term.

So there's still a lot to do and personnel changes to make before we can really be serious about contending.

[RiverDog]

I don't think Penny would make a difference.
When the holes aren't there, he wouldn't get much, either.
If anything, Walker should do better because he's quicker and has better lateral skills, but without good blocking up front, no RB will do particularly well.

It’s a moot point because Penny is gone . I just saw a couple weeks ago we were thinking Walker was better . Pennys CAREER ypc when getting it 10 or more times is 6.1 . Speaks for itself . His style was slippery , get skinny and explode north and south . No juking to speak of . Shifty , not juking around chopping his feet . It’s not all on the line . They didn’t protect Geno either and he had a pretty good game . K 9 is living up to his namesake in a bad way right now .I was leaning towards the belief Walker might be an improvement but no way , not yet . Not after the last 2 games . Bad timing . No Aaron Donald so no excuses . I didn’t see last week as a trap game . I saw it as a tough game and sure enough . Rams is a trap game . Everyone’s hurt . They aren’t sure who is starting at QB. 3 wins. Referees darlings at Sofi .

This is a must win or forget 2022.

It's not exactly a moot point. If we think that Penny would have done better under the circumstances of the past two games, then let's give DJ Dallas some more carries.

I've been calling for Dallas to get more carries all season. He looked really good in the preseason. He's a hard, north/south runner that rarely fumbles, a better 3rd down option than any of our backs even when Penny was healthy, and it would take some of the load off Walker and not expose him to injury.

[NorthHawk]

He's one of those types who's a solid player and deserves more playing time at RB than he's getting.

[Hawktawk]

I’m all for giving other backs touches if the guy is averaging under 2 yards . Never said I wasn’t . Homer is a nice little back too . K9 has that extra gear but sometimes you need 3 yard 3 yards 4 yards . Not zero zero looking for a home run .

[RiverDog]

It seems like the trend with a lot of teams is to use more of a running back by committee approach. Zeke Elliott is sharing carries with Tony Pollard, Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt at Cleveland, the Chiefs have 3 RB's with 150 carries, etc. Even if there wasn't a production issue with Walker, I'd be for splitting up the load a little more, but now, with two straight games with historically low production out of our feature running back, it seems more of a necessity. I'm not saying that Walker is the problem, but sometimes, just a change of pace can throw a defense for a bit of a loop. It's worth a try.

[Hawktawk]

It seems like the trend with a lot of teams is to use more of a running back by committee approach. Zeke Elliott is sharing carries with Tony Pollard, Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt at Cleveland, the Chiefs have 3 RB's with 150 carries, etc. Even if there wasn't a production issue with Walker, I'd be for splitting up the load a little more, but now, with two straight games with historically low production out of our feature running back, it seems more of a necessity. I'm not saying that Walker is the problem, but sometimes, just a change of pace can throw a defense for a bit of a loop. It's worth a try.

As Geno said in his post game mea culpa “ we are the hunted now “
I think we got to 6-3 and rookie of the month on O and D and #1 defense for 4 weeks and people took notice . It’s not an easy league , even harder this year . Walker is gonna have more big plays. It just needs to start now .

[RiverDog]

As Geno said in his post game mea culpa “ we are the hunted now “
I think we got to 6-3 and rookie of the month on O and D and #1 defense for 4 weeks and people took notice . It’s not an easy league , even harder this year . Walker is gonna have more big plays. It just needs to start now .

I wouldn't say that we're the hunted. Coming into this game with the Raiders, we were 6-4 having just gotten manhandled by the Bucs and in 2nd place in our division. That's not exactly a team that everyone aims for. I think Geno is being overly generous in his assessment of our reputation.

I really like Walker and think he's going to be a big plus for us going down the road. But right now, we need to throttle him back a little and let DJ Dallas show us what he can do. We need to do something to try to kick start our running game.

[Hawktawk]

At 6-3 we were being talked about as a dark horse super bowl contestant around the league . Then Tampa which was a cluster and which I discounted as a fd up poorly arranged stupid trap game on jello in front of German retards . It was a trip game it turned out but we still entered Sunday as a favorite and despite tone of mistakes it was right there . We’re not as good as the 4 week stretch but not as bad as Sunday ( on defense ) it’s the key to the stretch run .

[NorthHawk]

We're not catching any team by surprise now. We will benefit from the bad health of the Rams, but everyone who had penciled in a win at the beginning of the year is
taking another look and having to seriously game plan for us.

[Hawktawk]

We're not catching any team by surprise now. We will benefit from the bad health of the Rams, but everyone who had penciled in a win at the beginning of the year is
taking another look and having to seriously game plan for us.

We’ve been outschemed badly last 2 games . And yeah you are correct . Everyone who saw Seattle on the schedule said yeah buddy till they hit 6-3 scoring at least 20 all but twice over the next 7 games , over 30 several times . As Geno says absolutely correctly we became the hunted , a good quality win for our opponents .

Tampa destroyed us schematically along with all the other junk we dealt with , crap field . Lousy refs .

Worth noting Tompon crashed and lost to Cleveland and Jacoby Brissett on a dry field in the good old USA with no picked up flags on his team .

Raiders were a super talented team that was sleepwalking . Now let’s see. Everyone knows what we want to do on offense and they haven’t stopped us much . Even unable to run we move the ball.
It’s about our defense .

[NorthHawk]

The game planning has been atrocious the last 2 games.
I expect every team to use the same formula until we stop it. That's how the NFL works - see a weakness on a team and exploit it.

[Hawktawk]

The game planning has been atrocious the last 2 games.
I expect every team to use the same formula until we stop it. That's how the NFL works - see a weakness on a team and exploit it.

Especially the run . It’s easy to play offense if they can’t stop the run . But as I’ve said repeatedly safety play is critical on the back end in run support as much as pass. To put Jacob’s performance in perspective of his 225 yards 140 came in regulation and 1 posession in overtime in which the D got us the ball near midfield . It was Josh Jones in for Neal that’d was out of position and didn’t get a finger on him .

I’m hoping Lucas playing sick was the problem because he had by far his worst outing of the year . Let’s see