NFL rules / officials

[Hawktawk]

This is always a hot topic including on a couple threads here . But once more for the discussion .
Nobody’s perfect . Refs and the league shouldn’t be held to that standard . But there’s games it’s seemingly watching 2 games depending on which team it is .

XL is the gold standard . But sometimes stuff happens that’s hard to explain. It seems to blur the line between sport and wwf. Here is what I’d like to see .

A spotter in the booth buzzing down any bad or missed call ie facemask that affected 2 prime time games this week alone . I’d like to have the ability to video review and correct any egregious error throughout the game . It’s one of few sports that has such limited review . I mistrust the mother ship in New York that controls replay in every stadium every week. Too much control
Especially when there’s reviews that don’t pass the eyeball test .

I’d like to know what’s said in these conferences post play where decisions are made to throw or pick up flags like Tampa . Mike them up .
Last I’d love to know how well vetted these guys are . Are there a few gamblers calling games ? Any have ties to owners or players ? What’s the rules to be an NFL ref in terms of conduct off the field ?

Do you think among hundreds of guys and now gals there isn’t any bad apple ? An NBA ref already did time for points shaving and the NFL is a league where a penalty could be called every play . I’ve heard it many times . In a league where billions is at stake , careers , in our case a Lombardi I think we need to know all about the people who play god on Sunday . I welcome thoughts pro or con .

[NorthHawk]

We've talked about having a referee in the skybox to do just as you suggested.
I think it would be very important to have that ref to be a part of a rotation so nobody on the refereeing team would get stale from sitting on the bench.
That ref could also be an extra referee in the event of an injury to one of the on field refs.
This isn't rocket science but the NFL doesn't seem to want to improve its game time officiating.

[RiverDog]

This is always a hot topic including on a couple threads here . But once more for the discussion .
Nobody’s perfect . Refs and the league shouldn’t be held to that standard . But there’s games it’s seemingly watching 2 games depending on which team it is .

XL is the gold standard . But sometimes stuff happens that’s hard to explain. It seems to blur the line between sport and wwf. Here is what I’d like to see .

A spotter in the booth buzzing down any bad or missed call ie facemask that affected 2 prime time games this week alone . I’d like to have the ability to video review and correct any egregious error throughout the game . It’s one of few sports that has such limited review . I mistrust the mother ship in New York that controls replay in every stadium every week. Too much control
Especially when there’s reviews that don’t pass the eyeball test .

I’d like to know what’s said in these conferences post play where decisions are made to throw or pick up flags like Tampa . Mike them up .
Last I’d love to know how well vetted these guys are . Are there a few gamblers calling games ? Any have ties to owners or players ? What’s the rules to be an NFL ref in terms of conduct off the field ?

Do you think among hundreds of guys and now gals there isn’t any bad apple ? An NBA ref already did time for points shaving and the NFL is a league where a penalty could be called every play . I’ve heard it many times . In a league where billions is at stake , careers , in our case a Lombardi I think we need to know all about the people who play god on Sunday . I welcome thoughts pro or con .

I have mixed feelings. Like anyone else, I want to see a fair contest and am willing to do anything to improve the quality of the officiating...to a point.

I do not want to see the game slowed down with seemingly endless reviews and conversations between officials. An angle not seen by the replay official might have been seen by the ref on the ground that decided to throw or not to throw a flag, requiring a lengthy two way conversation. It's no exaggeration to say that you can call holding on every play. At some point, you have to draw the line between egregious and run-of-the-mill. It's never going to be perfect.

I'm not sure what micing up a ref is going to accomplish except create more controversy.

Referees are paid employees like anyone else, and some if not most of the information you're talking about wanting to know would be illegal for an employer to release due to privacy laws, such as their salary and wage history, tax exemptions, wage garnishments, disability information, job appraisals, drug test results, and so on. Arrest records may or may not be available. Some states make them available only to law enforcement. Tax returns, as we all know from recent events, are private and can only be released by court order. Medical records are private and protected by HIPPA. Credit reports may or may not be available. Financial information, like the amount and types of assets one has, what stocks they own or funds they participate in, etc. Privacy laws vary from state-to-state, and are intertwined with federal laws, like HIPPA and the ADA.

[Hawktawk]

We've talked about having a referee in the skybox to do just as you suggested.
I think it would be very important to have that ref to be a part of a rotation so nobody on the refereeing team would get stale from sitting on the bench.
That ref could also be an extra referee in the event of an injury to one of the on field refs.
This isn't rocket science but the NFL doesn't seem to want to improve its game time officiating.

Yes you are correct . They don’t seem to care about fixing it . A great example would be the incredible no call that sent thr Rams to the Super Bowl in 2019. Replay of PI was voted in by the owners . The officials revolted to the point they quit calling the foul either direction and New York overturned almost nothing later in the season . The rule was dropped after one year . Replay was dropped after being instituted in the 90s and reintroduced after the Testsverde helmet TD knocked Seattle out of the postseason . It led to Dennis Erickson being fired and Holmgren hired but I never cheer my team getting screwed out of a trip to the tournament . Now with all the slow mo and camera angles they still get it wrong in critical instances. I think the NFL likes having inconsistent officiating.

[RiverDog]

Yes you are correct . They don’t seem to care about fixing it . A great example would be the incredible no call that sent thr Rams to the Super Bowl in 2019. Replay of PI was voted in by the owners . The officials revolted to the point they quit calling the foul either direction and New York overturned almost nothing later in the season . The rule was dropped after one year . Replay was dropped after being instituted in the 90s and reintroduced after the Testsverde helmet TD knocked Seattle out of the postseason . It led to Dennis Erickson being fired and Holmgren hired but I never cheer my team getting screwed out of a trip to the tournament . Now with all the slow mo and camera angles they still get it wrong in critical instances. I think the NFL likes having inconsistent officiating.

The reason replay review failed on the first time around was because there were no limits on it, and it created multiple delays for seemingly inconsequential or stoppages over things that were obviously called correctly. There was no time limit on how long they could review the play. You'd sit there for several minutes only to hear the ref say "After further review, the play stands as called". It was horrible. It was worse if you were at the game in person as you can't just get up and go to the fridge or bathroom. You're stuck there in a gray cave waiting for them to figure out what was already obvious to most. The reincarnation of replay, where they only stop it on scoring plays/turnovers/challenges is much better.

One of the reasons why the PI replay failed is because coaches were using it as a Hail Mary. Might as well challenge a no call PI as you have nothing to lose. The same thing would happen if you made any other penalty or no call challengeable. Coaches would abuse it. I might be talked into penalties that are dependent on the clock or position of the field, like play clock violations, too many men on the field, or a lineman going downfield being stopped automatically by the booth. But holding or grabbing the face mask? No way!

[Hawktawk]

quote="Hawktawk"]This is always a hot topic including on a couple threads here . But once more for the discussion .
Nobody’s perfect . Refs and the league shouldn’t be held to that standard . But there’s games it’s seemingly watching 2 games depending on which team it is .

XL is the gold standard . But sometimes stuff happens that’s hard to explain. It seems to blur the line between sport and wwf. Here is what I’d like to see .

A spotter in the booth buzzing down any bad or missed call ie facemask that affected 2 prime time games this week alone . I’d like to have the ability to video review and correct any egregious error throughout the game . It’s one of few sports that has such limited review . I mistrust the mother ship in New York that controls replay in every stadium every week. Too much control
Especially when there’s reviews that don’t pass the eyeball test .

I’d like to know what’s said in these conferences post play where decisions are made to throw or pick up flags like Tampa . Mike them up .
Last I’d love to know how well vetted these guys are . Are there a few gamblers calling games ? Any have ties to owners or players ? What’s the rules to be an NFL ref in terms of conduct off the field ?

Do you think among hundreds of guys and now gals there isn’t any bad apple ? An NBA ref already did time for points shaving and the NFL is a league where a penalty could be called every play . I’ve heard it many times . In a league where billions is at stake , careers , in our case a Lombardi I think we need to know all about the people who play god on Sunday . I welcome thoughts pro or con .[/quote]

I have mixed feelings. Like anyone else, I want to see a fair contest and am willing to do anything to improve the quality of the officiating...to a point.

I do not want to see the game slowed down with seemingly endless reviews and conversations between officials. An angle not seen by the replay official might have been seen by the ref on the ground that decided to throw or not to throw a flag, requiring a lengthy two way conversation. It's no exaggeration to say that you can call holding on every play. At some point, you have to draw the line between egregious and run-of-the-mill. It's never going to be perfect.

I'm not sure what micing up a ref is going to accomplish except create more controversy.

Referees are paid employees like anyone else, and some if not most of the information you're talking about wanting to know would be illegal for an employer to release due to privacy laws, such as their salary and wage history, tax exemptions, wage garnishments, disability information, job appraisals, drug test results, and so on. Arrest records may or may not be available. Some states make them available only to law enforcement. Tax returns, as we all know from recent events, are private and can only be released by court order. Medical records are private and protected by HIPPA. Credit reports may or may not be available. Financial information, like the amount and types of assets one has, what stocks they own or funds they participate in, etc. Privacy laws vary from state-to-state, and are intertwined with federal laws, like HIPPA and the ADA.[/quote]
I guess I didn’t make myself clear . I want to know how much information the league has on these guys . What’s the vetting practice . Can they gamble ? Can they bet on sports ? I had heard they may visit casinos . The Rooney family had relatives involved in casinos for that matter . In any group of probably 150 people they can’t all be pure or it’s a remarkable thing if they are . My curiosity is what the league looks for in an official . If I was in charge they would be subject to polygraph examination annually . 1 Question . Do you manipulate outcomes intentionally ?
It’s billions . Hundreds of billions . And these are highly paid celebrity officials calling the show . How accountable are they . The crew that botched our Tuesday Rams game last year called prime time 5 days later . That whole covid delay tells you how much Goodell cares about us anyway .
The louder they professed their honesty the more closely I guarded the silver .

[RiverDog]

I guess I didn’t make myself clear . I want to know how much information the league has on these guys . What’s the vetting practice . Can they gamble ? Can they bet on sports ? I had heard they may visit casinos . The Rooney family had relatives involved in casinos for that matter . In any group of probably 150 people they can’t all be pure or it’s a remarkable thing if they are . My curiosity is what the league looks for in an official . If I was in charge they would be subject to polygraph examination annually . 1 Question . Do you manipulate outcomes intentionally ?
It’s billions . Hundreds of billions . And these are highly paid celebrity officials calling the show . How accountable are they . The crew that botched our Tuesday Rams game last year called prime time 5 days later . That whole covid delay tells you how much Goodell cares about us anyway .
The louder they professed their honesty the more closely I guarded the silver .

As far as I know, there are no rules governing behavior exclusive to officials and that they are treated like any other non playing NFL employee, and as such, are subject to the league's personal conduct policy:

All persons associated with the NFL are required to avoid “conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the National Football League.” This requirement applies to players, coaches, other team employees, owners, game officials and all others privileged to work in the National Football League.

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/pos ... uct-policy

Here's their policy on gambling:

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents ... 0FINAL.pdf

All NFL Personnel are prohibited from placing, soliciting, or facilitating any bet, whether directly or indirectly through a third-party, on any NFL game, practice or other event,”

Betting on Other Sports: All NFL Personnel other than Players are further prohibited from placing, soliciting, or facilitating bets on any other professional (e.g., NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, USTA, MLS), college (e.g., NCAA basketball), international (e.g., World Baseball Classic, World Cup), or Olympic sports competition, tournament or event

There are more restrictions in there if you're interested. Calvin Ridley was suspended for the entire season for betting on games.

As far as what their hiring standards are, like other employers, they want a certain amount of applicable experience, ie 10 or more years officiating college or professional football, but beyond that, they are limited on the kinds of questions they can ask. For example, they can't ask an applicant if they or their families have any financial interest in a casino or sports book.

[NorthHawk]

The owners may be a dysfunctional group as a whole, but when it comes to money they are on the same page.
I seriously doubt they would allow any inkling of scandal regarding referees and gambling as gambling is becoming a prime source of revenue.
Half of the owners may have inherited their wealth and a quarter of them got real lucky but there are some who worked damn hard to get their fortune and I seriously doubt they would let any hint of impropriety
to happen. A while back I read they have a big system of vetting their referees and they go through a long process of discovery about their personal financial situation and even daily goings on to the point of being observed by private
detectives to dig dirt on them. Can one or two maybe slip through the cracks? Possibly, but it would be a rare occurrence.
The bad calls we see are just that - bad calls with no planning or malice of intent. Some of them may just be bad referees. It happens, but I doubt very much that there are crooked refs. There's just too much money
riding on the NFL being clean for it to happen on any sort of scale.

[RiverDog]

The owners may be a dysfunctional group as a whole, but when it comes to money they are on the same page.
I seriously doubt they would allow any inkling of scandal regarding referees and gambling as gambling is becoming a prime source of revenue.
Half of the owners may have inherited their wealth and a quarter of them got real lucky but there are some who worked damn hard to get their fortune and I seriously doubt they would let any hint of impropriety
to happen. A while back I read they have a big system of vetting their referees and they go through a long process of discovery about their personal financial situation and even daily goings on to the point of being observed by private
detectives to dig dirt on them. Can one or two maybe slip through the cracks? Possibly, but it would be a rare occurrence.
The bad calls we see are just that - bad calls with no planning or malice of intent. Some of them may just be bad referees. It happens, but I doubt very much that there are crooked refs. There's just too much money
riding on the NFL being clean for it to happen on any sort of scale.

What an employer can gather about an employee or prospective employee's financial situation is limited. They can probably find out if they've gone through bankruptcy as that's public information and there are some states where parts of divorce settlements are public information, but I doubt that they can collect information like wage garnishments, credit reports, or what they owe on taxes. Stock ownership and trading is also private, unless you own over a certain percentage in a public stock. PI's are limited to areas with public access, which rules out private residences, buildings, clubs, etc. Even arrest records can be difficult to obtain.

But I agree with your conclusion, that it's very unlikely that there's very many corrupt refs out there. One or two, maybe. But not anywhere close to what is being suggested in the OP.

[Hawktawk]

Even if its 2 or 3 I hope one isn't calling my game. And I dont mean to suggest all refs are corrupt or even a significant portion . Maybe none are which i said. But incompetence doesn't explain everything. For whatever reason.


Incompetence or whatever can be greatly cleaned up by the eye in the sky.
Its that ref that watched one team commit holds all night then flags the other one on a TD play that raises my antenna. Those judgement calls, PI, holding, I'm not sure how they decide because by the rules I see holding and PI almost every play not called then all of a sudden boom.

I saw Clete Blakeman's crew throw 14 flags on Seattle in 2016 at Lumen. Carrol said post game the Cards didn't move the ball the entire second half the refs did it for them. every third down out we got laundry. My buddy and I were there dropping a couple grand. No rhyme or reason. Not much video evidence to ring up one team and ignore the other but they did. Who knows why?
Why does one crew throw a high number of flags weekly and another less? sometimes far less. We had the best 4 week stretch of officiating I can recall coming off that saints debacle and won all by at least 10 points.

How about this. Each official gets 2 calls, just like replay. When they are gone they are gone. Fair is fair, Keep the game moving right
Ill spend longer watching my game to get the calls as right as possible. Its not close right now.

[NorthHawk]

I think they can do more than RD suggests, but even if an official has been compromised, on balance we would get
the benefit of that corruption at times and probably when we aren’t favored by the odds.

[RiverDog]

I think they can do more than RD suggests, but even if an official has been compromised, on balance we would get
the benefit of that corruption at times and probably when we aren’t favored by the odds.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the employment questions, but I completely agree with you on the 2nd half of your sentence.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think the NFL can afford a "bad apple" for very long as any questionable officiating would make fans lose faith in the game. The fact that every fan base complains about the refs leads me to believe that the refs are on the up and up.

What I think occurs on occasion with penalties is crew bias or a league focus or general incompetence. Some crews or refs focus on particular penalties more than others like PI or holding. Some refs call some penalties tighter than others such as ref that focuses on holding calls while another ref might let something go. The league may hand down an instruction like make sure to focus on roughing the passer penalties closely to send the message to players not to overstep the rules when going after QBs or watch closely for defensive PI if CBs seem to be getting away with grabbing too much. Then you just have general incompetence like some refs just making a bad call. Fans look at their team in a vacuum and remember all the times they felt "screwed" by the refs and blame them for losses in tight games. It gives them something to complain about or feel outraged about as sports fandom is an emotionally driven activity.

I'd have to see some pretty compelling and clear evidence of system issues before I bought into any corruption or team bias. The NFL can't afford to have compromised referees. Given the media has found out about scandals with many teams and players, if the refs were compromised some major media outlet would have a story out with evidence that the league would have to refute.

[Hawktawk]

It’s a compromised SYSTEM imo and I think it’s rife with the potential for manipulation in certain situations . Imo XL should have resulted in a congressional investigation .
And like North says it doesn’t seem the league is real concerned . I watched us get illegally picked , blocked actually TD saints twice in the same game , plays that decided the outcome . We get a letter saying they screwed up . Still a loss . Nothing changes . And it gets old hearing well overcome it . In this parity driven league it’s harder said than done .
I don’t see officiating ever improving . I think it’s worse than ever .

[RiverDog]

It’s a compromised SYSTEM imo and I think it’s rife with the potential for manipulation in certain situations . Imo XL should have resulted in a congressional investigation .
And like North says it doesn’t seem the league is real concerned . I watched us get illegally picked , blocked actually TD saints twice in the same game , plays that decided the outcome . We get a letter saying they screwed up . Still a loss . Nothing changes . And it gets old hearing well overcome it . In this parity driven league it’s harder said than done .
I don’t see officiating ever improving . I think it’s worse than ever .

There's two issues here. One is the quality of officiating, and second is whether or not officiating is corrupt.

There have been complaints about the quality of officiating for as long as the game has been played, and likley always will. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to improve it where we can, but the truth of the matter is that some fans will never be satisfied and use poor officiating as a crutch to deny the reality that their team lost a game to a better or luckier team.

As far as the integrity of officiating goes, there has never been one incident with any kind of empirical or direct evidence tying an NFL official to gambling or other interest that might compromise their objectivity over more than 3/4 of a century. Corrupt officiating is nothing more than a fantasy in the minds of some. It doesn't exist.

[tarlhawk]

Most officials make correct calls....some seem amazing when slow-mo film backs up what looks like a difficult call to make. Its when the "rules" have been altered to a more ambiguous form of judgement call based on "observed intent" that the NFL begins to "sow the seed" of "corrupt" with "strange" calls....or non-calls. When an official "away from the play" over rules an official with "direct eyes on the play" or when the "timing" of ticky-tac observation wipes out on one extreme or delivers a decisive blow on the other extreme....that fans begin to "question" what they are "seeing".

As a society we have slowly....and often times quickly....been taught to "question" whatever has long stood the "test of time"....our core beliefs and trust have been shaken by "new" views on a variety of issues ranging from "funding" a corrupt police force....to question the integrity of the US Supreme Court....to even what "defines/constitutes" a marriage. The reality of having a capitalist republic without moral or ethical guidance exposes a society to "reason" if our trust can be bought.
Many of our national secrets "have succumbed" to the temptation of money....why doubt that possibility for a "few" NFL games with huge betting payoffs in a "close" game? Not all boxing matches were "shady" but the very notion effectively led to doubting the integrity of the sport as a "whole" as Prize Matches swung huge pay days for the "victor and his team".

I sometimes "turn a blind eye" towards a sport I love to watch but have the reasoning to prevent the escape of "ignorance is bliss". I don't want to grow old as a bitter cynic....solace in fiction (of the sci-fi variety) is even touched as an older/wizened but dying Spock questions the needs of the few out weighing the needs of the many. In the interest of pleasing a few we endanger the credibility of being fair to the interests of many.

Legalizing/accepting sports betting has thrust the NFL and its storied history into the responsibility of returning rules to reasoned intent of preventing either team from gaining an unfair advantage as a ref is challenged by the complex decision making of an ambiguous rule. The game should "flow" with the realization that the referees exist....without the constant awareness of their presence during a close emotional game....by a sudden flurry of flags thrown or picked back up. These interruptions are a source for more commercial breaks during a "play is under review" and if our attention span has been shrinking....this can even turn off newly found fans.

Many fans ignor hockey and soccer because of a widespread lack of understanding of various rules. The NFL and Baseball have flourished because we grow up as kids becoming very familiar of the "rules". We are persistent in our views of "seeing is believing" but when we see a "catch" or a "flagrant" pass interference (whether offensive or defensive) and then get reminded of some "technicality" that removes our trust in what we see. As an "entrenched" fan I "move on"....but how many "casual" fans become frustrated....let alone gain an air of conspiracy?? I apologize as my opinion on this topic often becomes a soap box issue with sad results.
Onward and upward! Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

I've been saying for years the rulebook has been "lawyered" to the point that many situations can be debated. There are intentional grey areas in rules and even the most fundamental aspect of football, a catch of a forward pass,
is still in dispute. It happened again last night where there was controversy about whether the receiver scored a TD before losing possession of the ball.
But then what should we expect from a rulebook that has been rewritten largely by lawyers? Nothing different, I suspect.

[RiverDog]

I've been saying for years the rulebook has been "lawyered" to the point that many situations can be debated. There are intentional grey areas in rules and even the most fundamental aspect of football, a catch of a forward pass,
is still in dispute. It happened again last night where there was controversy about whether the receiver scored a TD before losing possession of the ball.
But then what should we expect from a rulebook that has been rewritten largely by lawyers? Nothing different, I suspect.

It's sort of like some of the union contracts I've been involved in. A specific, once in ten-year incident will happen and they feel compelled to address it in writing by developing a rule or procedure that ends up making a lot of other things worse. It the case of the NFL, one incident happens, a flagrant missed call at a critical point in an important game like the NFCCG, and they address it by making a rule.

[Hawktawk]

There was nothing wrong with the PI review that couldn’t be fixed .but officials and the league revolted . Same reason they tried to do away with replay . They resist oversight . It’s a system rife with potential for abuse . Nobody seems to want to touch Xl . Rivers the only guy who will even try to defend it . Hey get over it HT. It was just our first super bowl . There’s as close to outright evidence of league manipulation right there . And it’s a rube who would suggest nobody has a side game anywhere with all that dough . How hard is a league that circles the wagons looking at their officials . I think they like the ambiguous grey area system they have just fine .

[RiverDog]

There was nothing wrong with the PI review that couldn’t be fixed .but officials and the league revolted.

You're letting your imagination take over again. The OPI/DPI challenge rule in the 2019 season was voted in on a one year test basis. There was no 'league revolt' to remove it. There was no interest in renewing it as the vast majority of challenges were unsuccessful as a little more than 1 call out of 8 challenges were reversed. All they did was to slow down the game. As I said earlier, the rule was being abused as coaches were using it as a Hail Mary when they had nothing to lose by throwing the challenge flag.

Besides, why stop at pass interference? Why not make offensive and defensive holding reviewable? Or how about grabbing the face mask? Or an illegal block in the back? Or roughing the passer? Aren't those penalties just as momentous as PI?

[Hawktawk]

I think involving coaches in replay is the wrong approach in hindsight . All plays should be subject to monitoring from a skybox equipped with every replay angle imaginable .

And again it’s visible to eyes that see officials simply refused to overturn calls or non calls made on field regarding pi. Your 8-1 stat proved it . We actually won one but I think it was a makeup call at the same time on the same play.

The uncalled foul on Lockett was indeed a foul and was called by New York . What wasn’t called was Wilson absolutely getting laid out helmet to helmet on the play . How they missed that I don’t know but it wasn’t (and isn’t ) reviewable in a league that’s so concerned about QBs Tompon Brady got a call when a guy exhaled on him earlier this year .
It’s ridiculous .
Face masks are simple and I see them all the time Uncalled . Vicious ones sometimes . I also saw 2 examples in the Tards Whiners . SF got 15 yards added on with a phantom face mask . Guy had his hands on the shoulder pads . Easy to see . Later a SF offensive linemen pancaked a safety inside the 10 on a scoring play and grabbed his face mask and camera clearly shows it .

Things like holding or PI are tough and would have to be egregious missed calls . Flagged penalties would be even rarer to review as it can be called on every play. As far as I can see we’re about there with PI/OPI now too.
But what’s done now adays is a Wild West show of grey areas , as Tari says officials off the ball making and changing calls of guys on top of it like the Tampa . Ambiguous rules that make refs basically decision makers , king makers .

A conference of keystone cop zebras asking each other “ what did you see” when they already F@j#t up is not how a billion dollar industry should operate . No more conferences . Go to the booth if you don’t agree . If the league wants to quit calling stuff off the point of attack fine , be consistent and put it in the rule book.
You all fine with a lifetime investment in this sport watching us all get the oky doke have at it . If the blind lead the blind they will both fall in the ditch.

One more thing . Nick Bosa hit Colt McCoy in the back a couple seconds after the ball was released . Rocked him then did this phony pull up after . McCoy went to his knees , clearly hurt and was never himself the rest of the night . He wasn’t expecting contact clearly . It was flagged but the dude should have been ejected . I lost all respect .

[RiverDog]

I think involving coaches in replay is the wrong approach in hindsight . All plays should be subject to monitoring from a skybox equipped with every replay angle imaginable .

And again it’s visible to eyes that see officials simply refused to overturn calls or non calls made on field regarding pi. Your 8-1 stat proved it . We actually won one but I think it was a makeup call at the same time on the same play.

The 8-1 stat proves what? That officials on the field are reluctant to overturn their own calls? B.S.! Once again, you're seeing villains around every corner where none exist.

The 1 out of 8 stat I quoted equals 12.5%. Guess what the percentage of calls overturned during the league's first experiment with instant replay, from 1986-91, which featured your "eye in the sky" was: 12.6%:

https://operations.nfl.com/officiating/ ... nt-replay/

The reason they went to coaches' challenges was so they could still give a team that was the victim of a bad call an opportunity of making it right while limiting game stoppages for inconsequential challenges by making coaches think twice before throwing that flag, and it's worked. From 1999-2021, the percent of successful challenges is up to around 40%, quite an improvement from the 80's era system, and also demonstrates how horrid that 1 out of 8 stat on DPI/OPI in 2019 was and why they didn't continue it.

It's not a perfect system, but it works, whereas the previous one, ie 1986-91, and the DPI/OPI experiment, didn't.

[Hawktawk]

Nothings perfect . I frankly didn’t understand exactly what happened on the goal line yesterday evening watching slo mo. But video is so far superior to humans eyes . I and it sounds like north are leaning eye in the sky . Maybe Let coaches have 1 challenge that keeps renewing as long as you keep winning challenges . But stuff like roughing , face mask and egregiously wrong calls / non calls are subject to real time review . I expect none of it to ever be implemented . Eye in the sky woukd have sent the saints to their rightful berth in the super bowl . Maybe coaches review of pi wasn’t workable . Eye in the sky and eye of fat drunk guy in couch could see that easy . So could the refs who chose not to flag it. That’s why nothing is ever going to change river .

[RiverDog]

Nothings perfect . I frankly didn’t understand exactly what happened on the goal line yesterday evening watching slo mo. But video is so far superior to humans eyes . I and it sounds like north are leaning eye in the sky . Maybe Let coaches have 1 challenge that keeps renewing as long as you keep winning challenges . But stuff like roughing , face mask and egregiously wrong calls / non calls are subject to real time review . I expect none of it to ever be implemented . Eye in the sky woukd have sent the saints to their rightful berth in the super bowl . Maybe coaches review of pi wasn’t workable . Eye in the sky and eye of fat drunk guy in couch could see that easy . So could the refs who chose not to flag it. That’s why nothing is ever going to change river .

From the link I posted above:

Ultimately, the system’s ineffectiveness (the 1986-91 replay review, (ie "eye in the sky") led to the end of its use. The league determined that nine of the 90 reviewed calls in 1991 were overturned incorrectly.

So even after they had the system in place for 5 seasons, the last season saw 10% of the calls that were overturned were overturned incorrectly.

And I want to correct an inaccuracy in your statement about the no PI call not sending the Saints to the Super Bowl on the infamous PI no call. It was not a scoring play. It was an incomplete pass on 3rd down that would have given the Saints a first down on the Rams' 10 or so yard line with 1:58 left in regulation. After the no call, the Saints kicked a FG on 4th down, sending the game into OT where they eventually lost.

It is a huge assumption to think that the Saints would have scored a TD had that PI been called and given the Saints another set of downs. The overall odds in the NFL for scoring a touchdown on first and goal from inside the 10 are 64%. Odds are that they would have, but it is far from conclusive.

[Hawktawk]

You’re dead wrong about that game . It was tied with saints ball 3rd down . The guy is open , Brees is the only guy in history more accurate than Geno in Seattle . Probably a TD. But the foul which was one of the worst uncalled fouls in playoff history , maybe the worst would have given the saints first down and the ability to KILL THE CLOCK, run it down and kick a chip shot game winner . Instead the most potent offense in the league had nearly 2 minutes to simply get in FG range and get to overtime . Your response is predictable . Stop them . Bullsh@t. They stopped themselves . They deserved to lose . A ref grabbed his flag and didn’t pull it , proving he had seen it .
It’s a joke .

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

The DPI no call against the Saints playing the Rams was atrocious, but it wasn't the final say in the game. The Saints started OT with the ball and got sacked to end their drive. That was their chance to end the game. It was in their hands and they couldn't hold it. I'm also pretty sure the Saints had the chance to salt the game away but called some pass plays that stopped the clock.

There's also those games that see some bad calls earlier in the game that majorly affected play. E.g. the Fail Mary game. Of course people are outraged at the Seahawks TD at the end of the game, but there's not a peep about the garbage PI call on Kam on 3rd down that extend the Packers drive that resulted in their go-ahead TD. That right there could have meant the Fail Mary never happens.

I don't like seeing garbage calls/no calls, but games have to be won when you have the chance.

[RiverDog]

You’re dead wrong about that game . It was tied with saints ball 3rd down . The guy is open , Brees is the only guy in history more accurate than Geno in Seattle . Probably a TD. But the foul which was one of the worst uncalled fouls in playoff history , maybe the worst would have given the saints first down and the ability to KILL THE CLOCK, run it down and kick a chip shot game winner . Instead the most potent offense in the league had nearly 2 minutes to simply get in FG range and get to overtime . Your response is predictable . Stop them . Bullsh@t. They stopped themselves . They deserved to lose . A ref grabbed his flag and didn’t pull it , proving he had seen it .
It’s a joke .

Here's the play. The Saints receiver was NOT wide open. See for yourself:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vi ... M%3DVDVVXX

Think about it for a minute. How could he have been wide open if he was contacted by the defender before the ball arrived? Had the defender turned around, he might have been able to legally knock the ball away.

The ball should have been placed where the foul occurred, at the Rams' 5 yard line, first and goal. Instead, being that it was 3rd down, the Saints settled for a FG and sent the game into OT. Had they won, the call would have not been nearly as controversial as it ended up being.

[RiverDog]

The DPI no call against the Saints playing the Rams was atrocious, but it wasn't the final say in the game. The Saints started OT with the ball and got sacked to end their drive. That was their chance to end the game. It was in their hands and they couldn't hold it. I'm also pretty sure the Saints had the chance to salt the game away but called some pass plays that stopped the clock.

There's also those games that see some bad calls earlier in the game that majorly affected play. E.g. the Fail Mary game. Of course people are outraged at the Seahawks TD at the end of the game, but there's not a peep about the garbage PI call on Kam on 3rd down that extend the Packers drive that resulted in their go-ahead TD. That right there could have meant the Fail Mary never happens.

I don't like seeing garbage calls/no calls, but games have to be won when you have the chance.

That's how I recalled the game, too. I watched it in its entirety and remember thinking that although it was a bad no call, that it was not a devastating, and not having a horse in the race, didn't think all that much of it until after the game when it became a huge controversy. The Saints had plenty of opportunities after that play occurred to recover from that no call.

Bad calls have a tendency to even themselves out over time, but that fact isn't much consolation when you lose a close game that's heavily influenced by one.

[Hawktawk]

Game over . Until it wasn’t .
It’s not just pi, it’s an egregious personal foul on a defenseless player . It’s impossible to determine whether the ball is catchable with a receiver laid out . The guy admitted it , bragged about it . Said he didn’t want to lose so he fouled . Imo what happened prior to that play and after is irrelevant . Referees were the only reason there was overtime and a guy had his hand on a flag , several officials looking around; another seems to gesture in his direction. ( guys with LA ties)
They gave one of 2 great teams that were even although advantage saints an undeserved massive lifeline on an obvious intentional foul . Rest of game becomes irrelevant at that point .kind of like Tampa . We start doing something and flags magically disappear twice after conferences between guys that missed it in real time .
You like it up the bung Holio be my guest. I demand better from a billion dollar a minute organization . When DK gets tripped costing us a playoff game with no mechanism to correct it I guess we can revisit .

[RiverDog]

Game over . Until it wasn’t .
It’s not just pi, it’s an egregious personal foul on a defenseless player.

Come on, man! Did you even look at the video? It wasn't a personal foul, not even close. The defender didn't lead with his head nor did he make any contact with the receiver's head/neck area, and it occurred within the field of play. It was a shoulder to the chest that took out the receiver. Had he not arrived before the ball or had he turned around and tried to find the ball instead of crashing into the receiver, it would have been a perfect, legal play. Until now, I have never heard anyone claim that play should have resulted in a PF. Everyone has always limited it to pass interference.

In retrospect, Brees probably should have thrown that pass with a higher trajectory and put it to where only his guy could catch it rather than making him turn around like he did. He might have been a little late with the throw, too.

[Hawktawk]

He’s tackled before the ball is anywhere near him. A solid NFL tackle . A deliberate illegal tackle by the players own admission . I’m not sure how it stacks up with hitting a return man before the ball arrives or something like that . Frankly I’ve seen guys get there early and make contact and get hit in the back by the ball . That’s mis timed. I’ve never really seen a DB do what the guy did . It doesn’t matter . How the first half went doesn’t matter , the previous drive . Whether the guy was open doesn’t matter .
A guy grabbed his flag . Several officials clearly were in view of the play . They made a decision to let it go. They do it all the time . Zero faith with the game on the line . Worst officials in professional sports .

[Hawktawk]

Oh and by the way there never was a fail Mary . It was actually the golden Hail Mary . That was a correctly called TD . And it got that guy death threats .

I didn’t mind the replacement refs . If I recall less penalties . Definitely not a bunch of egomaniacs wanting air time . Celebrity refs .

[RiverDog]

Oh and by the way there never was a fail Mary . It was actually the golden Hail Mary . That was a correctly called TD . And it got that guy death threats .

I didn’t mind the replacement refs . If I recall less penalties . Definitely not a bunch of egomaniacs wanting air time . Celebrity refs .

It was a correctly called play, but the travesty was the blatant OPI that occurred well before the ball arrived with Tate blatantly shoving a receiver out of the way. The Packers had a legitimate gripe.

I'm still looking for an explanation as to why the Metcalf incompletion took so long to review. They were supposed to have a time limit as to how long they were allowed before they had to make a decision, and that was obviously violated.

[Hawktawk]

An eye in the sky could easily have corrected the blatant, perfectly executed short 2 hand punch to knock the opposing defender out of the way. I miss Tate. But the gripe wasn't what they thought and 10 seasons later no remedy exists in a billion dollar a second baby. Ridiculous.

As for the rip off of DKs catch that may well salt the game away Sunday? Don't get me started river. We made plenty of mistakes enough to lose AS DID THE RAIDERS. But as Carroll pointed out 2 refs on the spot said catch. Then its in the booth for about 4 minutes since its inside 2 minutes.
You answer your own question. Why does it take 4 minutes to find the CLEAR EVIDENCE to overturn it. Cause there wasn't any. Clear is turn on the video and say sure there it is. You stay with the call on the field in that situation. Id love to be a fly on the wall in that mother ship in NY, see who is there and what the decision making process is there. They CHOSE Raiders there. The mother ship handling replay in NY is the thing I trust the absolute least, the ability to manipulate every game in real time.
Frankly I and a lot of folks including some pundits had as big a problem with Jacobs getting a free pass on a fumble. If that's forward progress Beast wouldnt have hade half his yards according to one pundit I read. That's ball game there.

Again. The game wasn't lost by the refs any more than Tampa but for the second one in a row in a close game between 2 even matched teams making similar mistakes there were 2 LATE DECISIONS made by officials. All 4 could reasonably have been called the other way but all 4 favored our opponent and figured into the final result. Its a fact.

You want less replay. I want better officials with much greater oversight and as much replay as possible . I do not trust the integrity of the game at this point. Video can confuse but it doesn't lie, cheat or gamble.

[NorthHawk]

There is PI on every Hail Mary. It's a mosh pit when the ball is thrown and could go either way.
Did Tate push off? Yeah, but so did Drew Pearson on a pass play 50 years before and it got him into the HoF. Penalties aren't called all the time.

[Hawktawk]

There is PI on every Hail Mary. It's a mosh pit when the ball is thrown and could go either way.
Did Tate push off? Yeah, but so did Drew Pearson on a pass play 50 years before and it got him into the HoF. Penalties aren't called all the time.

I understand that . My point is it’s 2022. We have technology to correct a lot of things . I don’t think we need bad and missed calls to be such a large part of outcomes anymore . I don’t think it’s a positive part of folklore . I know we have one less playoff appearance because the league dropped replay and being the reason it’s back because Vinnies white helmet got in the way is small consolation . And it didn’t help us Sunday anyway as they went away from their standard to reverse a call on the field. Worst professional officials in any sport . Least amount of oversight . The crew chief from that saints debacle was on MNF last night . None of those people should have officiated another game . Zero faith . Let’s see what happens Sunday with what’s left of the Rams . They usually have a field day on calls and non calls vs Seattle. Last game was a blatant uncalled Pi on Dee Jay who is tackled as the ball hits the guy in the back on a 4th down throw in a 10-7 game . They didn’t miss him kicking the ball though . Refs don’t make calls . They make decisions .

[NorthHawk]

You're right. They should use more technology to get calls right, but we aren't using it so mistakes will be made and sometimes they will change the outcome of a game.
It isn't right, but it's what we have at the moment.

[tarlhawk]

My post provides no excuse for the many points we left off the board or for the horrible defense that still begs a question....Is there a beef between Jordyn Brooks and Quandre Diggs on who is supposed to be in a certain assignment called in the defensive play? Seems subtle now...but we need both of those players to continue to ball out.

The ref play did nothing to fan the flames of their influence on close games. I stress no excuse because every team knows you kill such influence by keeping your foot on the gas pedal to create score separation. The integrity of "incontrovertible" evidence to overturn a play called by on the field refs is in question when so much time is given before deciding....this also allowed the Raiders to get set on sending in the correct play while ruining any rhythm our offense could have rolled with. A more subtle call was made on Phil Haynes as an ineligible receiver on a big time down conversion when it looked like he was still engaged with his block as the pass was thrown which is supposed to be allowed...the ineligibility is if he "peeled" off his block becoming a possible target as the ball is released???
The most obvious one was the "non-fumble" forward progress called (even before the whistle was blown)...announced as such a ruling ONLY after Pete had tossed the challenge flag. We lost the game period....but bad ref calls such as these make losers out of the fans who love the sport...even under the "shadow" of gambling allowed. Onward and upward! Go hawks

[RiverDog]

An eye in the sky could easily have corrected the blatant, perfectly executed short 2 hand punch to knock the opposing defender out of the way. I miss Tate. But the gripe wasn't what they thought and 10 seasons later no remedy exists in a billion dollar a second baby. Ridiculous.

As for the rip off of DKs catch that may well salt the game away Sunday? Don't get me started river. We made plenty of mistakes enough to lose AS DID THE RAIDERS. But as Carroll pointed out 2 refs on the spot said catch. Then its in the booth for about 4 minutes since its inside 2 minutes.
You answer your own question. Why does it take 4 minutes to find the CLEAR EVIDENCE to overturn it. Cause there wasn't any. Clear is turn on the video and say sure there it is. You stay with the call on the field in that situation. Id love to be a fly on the wall in that mother ship in NY, see who is there and what the decision making process is there. They CHOSE Raiders there. The mother ship handling replay in NY is the thing I trust the absolute least, the ability to manipulate every game in real time.
Frankly I and a lot of folks including some pundits had as big a problem with Jacobs getting a free pass on a fumble. If that's forward progress Beast wouldnt have hade half his yards according to one pundit I read. That's ball game there.

Again. The game wasn't lost by the refs any more than Tampa but for the second one in a row in a close game between 2 even matched teams making similar mistakes there were 2 LATE DECISIONS made by officials. All 4 could reasonably have been called the other way but all 4 favored our opponent and figured into the final result. Its a fact.

You want less replay. I want better officials with much greater oversight and as much replay as possible . I do not trust the integrity of the game at this point. Video can confuse but it doesn't lie, cheat or gamble.

That's not the point. The point is that they have 60 seconds to review a play, and if they can't find 'clear and conclusive' evidence in that amount of time, the call on the field stands. I want to know why they took so long to review it, and why when it goes over the prescribed amount of time that they didn't stick with the call on the field.

There are times when they've decided on a catch/fumble, etc, but need extra time to determine the correct field position or how much time should be put back on the clock. But that wasn't the case here.

My understanding is that the ball never hit the ground but that it was moving in Metcalf's hands as he was falling out of bounds, indicating that he didn't fully control it. I can live with that judgment had they come to that decision at least somewhat close to the prescribed amount of time.

[NorthHawk]

Judgement calls will always mean someone is felt to be wronged. It's the nature of us humans to think like that.