All grass

[trents]

I see where not only Pete but Aaron Rogers is now calling for all stadiums to use real grass fields. What do you guys think?

[c_hawkbob]

I remember when everybody was clamoring for the 'new' Field Turf in preference to grass.

[trents]

One of my concerns would be with domed stadiums. You need direct sunlight (or at least artificial sunlight) to grow grass.

[RiverDog]

I remember when everybody was clamoring for the 'new' Field Turf in preference to grass.

Yeah, it's ironic, isn't it?

Our home stadium was originally supposed to be a natural turf as it was stated in the state wide initiative that we voted on because it was a requirement to host a world cup game and they were looking to convince the soccer fans to vote for it. After we played for two seasons at Husky Stadium on a Field Turf surface that Paul Allen bought them as a thank you to UW for allowing us to play there while our new digs was under construction, Holmgren was so impressed with the surface that he insisted that it be installed in our new stadium. Allen was able to wiggle around the requirement by promising to import a grass field if Seattle was ever in the position of hosting a World Cup game.

Now, we've come full circle.

[RiverDog]

One of my concerns would be with domed stadiums. You need direct sunlight (or at least artificial sunlight) to grow grass.

Both Arizona and Las Vegas have domed stadiums with natural grass surface that when not in use, retracts to a location outdoors, but I would imagine that it would be cost prohibitive to retrofit existing domed stadiums with that feature.

But to answer your question in the OP, I honestly don't know. Hawktawk would probably be in a better position than me to comment. I do know that Green Bay, the Mariners, and likely a few other northern tier venues have natural grass fields with a grid work of piping underneath the surface where they'll circulate warm water through to heat up the root system and coax the grass out of dormancy, so there's no such thing as "the frozen tundra of Lambeau Field" anymore.

[Aseahawkfan]

I heard the NFL says their evidence shows a similar injury rate on both. So not sure. Does anyone have evidence that turf causes more or worse injuries?

[RiverDog]

I heard the NFL says their evidence shows a similar injury rate on both. So not sure. Does anyone have evidence that turf causes more or worse injuries?

Yeah, the players union has a survey:

Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass.

https://nflpa.com/posts/only-natural-gr ... ying-field

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, the players union has a survey:

Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass.

https://nflpa.com/posts/only-natural-gr ... ying-field

Good find. Then I'm firmly in support of grass. I don't like injuries.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, the players union has a survey:

Based on NFL injury data collected from 2012 to 2018, not only was the contact injury rate for lower extremities higher during practices and games held on artificial turf, NFL players consistently experienced a much higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries on turf compared to natural surfaces. Specifically, players have a 28% higher rate of non-contact lower extremity injuries when playing on artificial turf. Of those non-contact injuries, players have a 32% higher rate of non-contact knee injuries on turf and a staggering 69% higher rate of non-contact foot/ankle injuries on turf compared to grass.

https://nflpa.com/posts/only-natural-gr ... ying-field

Good find. Then I'm firmly in support of grass. I don't like injuries.

There may be other solutions besides changing the field surface, like improved footwear, knee braces, etc.

[NorthHawk]

I don't know of any studies that might show wear and tear on the body from artificial turf that over time would lead to more injuries.
If that's true, then the injury rates on both surfaces would appear to be similar or maybe statistically insignificant.
But if the owners think about it, they are spending collectively $6.6B on salaries so it would seem a no brainer to want to protect that investment by spending a relatively few million on safer playing and practice surfaces.
By the way, by 2024 when the Cap increases to $250,000,000 per team the cost of salaries would be about $8.2 Billion so protecting their assets should be a fairly high priority.

[Hawktawk]

Natural turf is best for player safety IN MOST INSTANCES. Astroturf is better for the quality and speed of the game without question. I think Seattle is a fast rug team.
Sunday was an example of when a turf field can be as dangerous or more so than artificial turf. There is no world class stadium planted in grass that should ever play like that. as Pete said post game that wasn't even good for soccer. And it isn't uniquely that stadium .
Fed Ex where the Commanders play is legendary for lousy conditions, lack of roots,. turf sliding out. We lost Chris Clemons there in 2012 when Turf gave way as he planted to push off.

When Levi was originally sodded it was terrible, overwatered. Got Jimmy G hurt when it slid out. There's numerous issues with a grass field depending on where its planted. In the far north it goes dormant and freezes solid other than Green Bay who have heating coils in the field. In a super wet environment like Seattle can be a natural turf field would really be a challenge to keep from breaking down in a rain game.

It doesn't work very well in a dome due to the lack of air circulation and no sunlight . Az has turf on carts that are shuttled outside between games to get photosynthesis and irrigation and brought in and assembled like a puzzle for games. Unless I'm mistaken we lost Avril, Sherm and Kam on that field though.

It would be a monumental project to get healthy functioning turf in all stadiums. As a turf professional it seems the league needs something like a greens agronomist who travels around and checks and advises on field conditions with turf. Seems to me in a billion gazillion sport they really scrimp on basic stuff like seeing to it that the fields are safe.

[Aseahawkfan]

There may be other solutions besides changing the field surface, like improved footwear, knee braces, etc.

If you have data showing natural surfaces lower injury rates, you go with natural surfaces.

Then worry about foot wear and the like to further improve safety.

[RiverDog]

There may be other solutions besides changing the field surface, like improved footwear, knee braces, etc.

If you have data showing natural surfaces lower injury rates, you go with natural surfaces.

Then worry about foot wear and the like to further improve safety.

The problem is that not all fields are going to be easily converted to a natural surface. New Orleans, Minnesota, and Detroit all have fixed roof stadiums and retrofitting them with retractable fields ala Arizona and Las Vegas would be impractical if not impossible. And even stadiums like Seattle's, with the extended roof, north/south configuration, and the northern most latitude of any outdoor stadium in the league isn't going to make for an easy conversion. It's easier said than done.

And going to grass isn't necessarily going to fix the problem. Do you remember the field that Chris Clemmons blew out his knee on? FedEx Field, home of the Redskins. Adrian Peterson and RG3 blew out their knees on that field, too, and there were tons of complaints about it. I know that there's been complaints about Arizona's field, and it's a natural surface.

[Aseahawkfan]

The problem is that not all fields are going to be easily converted to a natural surface. New Orleans, Minnesota, and Detroit all have fixed roof stadiums and retrofitting them with retractable fields ala Arizona and Las Vegas would be impractical if not impossible. And even stadiums like Seattle's, with the extended roof, north/south configuration, and the northern most latitude of any outdoor stadium in the league isn't going to make for an easy conversion. It's easier said than done.

And going to grass isn't necessarily going to fix the problem. Do you remember the field that Chris Clemmons blew out his knee on? FedEx Field, home of the Redskins. Adrian Peterson and RG3 blew out their knees on that field, too, and there were tons of complaints about it. I know that there's been complaints about Arizona's field, and it's a natural surface.

Natural surfaces doesn't necessarily have to be grass? You can do dirt or some similar natural surface.

[RiverDog]

The problem is that not all fields are going to be easily converted to a natural surface. New Orleans, Minnesota, and Detroit all have fixed roof stadiums and retrofitting them with retractable fields ala Arizona and Las Vegas would be impractical if not impossible. And even stadiums like Seattle's, with the extended roof, north/south configuration, and the northern most latitude of any outdoor stadium in the league isn't going to make for an easy conversion. It's easier said than done.

And going to grass isn't necessarily going to fix the problem. Do you remember the field that Chris Clemmons blew out his knee on? FedEx Field, home of the Redskins. Adrian Peterson and RG3 blew out their knees on that field, too, and there were tons of complaints about it. I know that there's been complaints about Arizona's field, and it's a natural surface.

Natural surfaces doesn't necessarily have to be grass? You can do dirt or some similar natural surface.

Maybe. Perhaps not dirt, but there's rubberized chips like they use on child playground equipment.

There could also be trade-offs on the types of injuries suffered. There's sufficient evidence to suggest that grass is tougher on lower extremity injuries, knees and ankles. But which surface is more forgiving of head and neck injuries? If it turns out that artificial turf is easier on head and necks, do you still want to convert everything to grass?

[c_hawkbob]

Granite is a natural surface.

[Hawktawk]

Granite is a natural surface.

Lol.
As I’ve pointed out as well as river you can’t just grow turf indoors . And it’s not a 100% fix . It’s got to be properly maintained . I don’t want guys blowing an ankle cutting on a rug or blowing it slipping out on bad turf either and that’s a boring game too , like Sunday . I think a combination of well maintained turf fields and working to fix the problems with AstroTurf . Maybe make the shoes less grabby or something to cut down on the non contact stuff . It’s a collision sport though. I remember a guy destroying his knee on sand at the pro bowl years ago .

[NorthHawk]

I suspect that if you can grow grass in a greenhouse you can grow it in a dome. How much it would cost for lighting, air circulation, and irrigation I wouldn't know but it's possible.
Green Bay apparently has a turf that is a combination of artificial and real grass which according to the article I read was considered one of the better turfs to play on.

[Hawktawk]

I suspect that if you can grow grass in a greenhouse you can grow it in a dome. How much it would cost for lighting, air circulation, and irrigation I wouldn't know but it's possible.
Green Bay apparently has a turf that is a combination of artificial and real grass which according to the article I read was considered one of the better turfs to play on.

There’s a huge difference between a greenhouse and a football stadium . I think it would be extremely challenging to develop a surface that would be durable and vigorous enough to play football on . As you say you must have light , lots of it . Then imagine the humidity in an enclosed facility when you light up an acre of sprinklers . My guess it would be hundreds of millions at a minimum to convert a dome and you still don’t know how it’s really gonna grow till you plant or sod it . It’s why AZ has movable turf to get it outside and as River points out there are complaints about that field . It’s where Sherman played his last snap for Seattle .
And bottom line in a league that allows fed ex to be how it is , allowed Levi to open leading to Jimmy G being lost . The condition I’ve seen Pittsburgh in . For that matter allowing 2 teams on a field in
Munich that wasn’t acceptable for NFL play . Where’s the advance agronomy team ? If you’re doing it do it right . Both teams were lucky to get out of there with no significant injuries .

For all the talk of safety etc the league is about making as much money as possible as economically as possible . Greed . Nothing is gonna change unless it’s collectively bargained .

[RiverDog]

I suspect that if you can grow grass in a greenhouse you can grow it in a dome. How much it would cost for lighting, air circulation, and irrigation I wouldn't know but it's possible.
Green Bay apparently has a turf that is a combination of artificial and real grass which according to the article I read was considered one of the better turfs to play on.

There’s a huge difference between a greenhouse and a football stadium . I think it would be extremely challenging to develop a surface that would be durable and vigorous enough to play football on . As you say you must have light , lots of it . Then imagine the humidity in an enclosed facility when you light up an acre of sprinklers . My guess it would be hundreds of millions at a minimum to convert a dome and you still don’t know how it’s really gonna grow till you plant or sod it . It’s why AZ has movable turf to get it outside and as River points out there are complaints about that field . It’s where Sherman played his last snap for Seattle .
And bottom line in a league that allows fed ex to be how it is , allowed Levi to open leading to Jimmy G being lost . The condition I’ve seen Pittsburgh in . For all the talk of safety etc the league is about making as much money as possible as economically as possible . Greed . Nothing is gonna change unless it’s collectively bargained .

The way artificial turf was invented is because they tried to grow grass inside the world's first domed stadium, the Astrodome. They tried everything, including painting some of the glass panels in the roof. Instead, they came up with Astroturf. Obviously, they've had the benefit of over 60 years of advancements in technology, but as Hawktawk says, it's not as simple as growing grass in a greenhouse.

The problem with the study that I linked above was that it focused on lower extremity injuries, ie knees and ankles, and I'm not sure that those are the injuries that we should be concerned with. What I want to know is what the injury rate on head and neck injuries are on grass vs. artificial surfaces. Would you rather your head get slammed to the ground in Lambeau or on Field Turf at Lumen? Let's go after the truly life threatening or life altering injuries before we worry about ankles and knees.

[NorthHawk]

Isn't it all part and parcel? If it's bad slamming your body into a solid surface like poor AT, it would also be hard on the knees and ankles because of the unforgiving nature of the surface.

[RiverDog]

Isn't it all part and parcel? If it's bad slamming your body into a solid surface like poor AT, it would also be hard on the knees and ankles because of the unforgiving nature of the surface.

I think the issue with artificial turf is that the traction is too good, that a hit on a planted leg doesn't slip like it does on a grass field, so there's more resistance. It's ironic, as I understand that the complaints about the field in Munich was that it was too slippery.

But I do think that Field Turf has more of a cushioning effect than grass fields, so it might be a little easier on head and neck injuries.

[Hawktawk]

River I believe with the shade tolerant cultivars , biostimulents , full foliar fertility etc , unlimited options for cultivating and draining the profile it would be possible to do it in most stadiums . The commitment isn’t there . Would owners have to pay ? Good luck . Fun to debate but it ain’t gonna happen in our lifetimes

[RiverDog]

River I believe with the shade tolerant cultivars , biostimulents , full foliar fertility etc , unlimited options for cultivating and draining the profile it would be possible to do it in most stadiums . The commitment isn’t there . Would owners have to pay ? Good luck . Fun to debate but it ain’t gonna happen in our lifetimes

Maybe, you know more about it than I do.

One of the problems is that most of these venues aren't owned by the teams and are used for other purposes besides football, so any change in the playing surface would have to be negotiated. They'll host everything from concerts to college basketball to motor cross. Are those activities going to be compatible with a grass field? Like I said, easier said than done.

[Hawktawk]

I agree . If at a minimum every surface whether turf or synthetic was maintained and prepared properly for safety and a good show it would be an improvement. Including fields used in the international series .