Munich

[obiken]

Wow, Thats not what Cowherd was saying this morning, maybe I have too much of a man crush on little Collin!!!

[RiverDog]

Wow, Thats not what Cowherd was saying this morning, maybe I have too much of a man crush on little Collin!!!

Yeah, maybe Cowherd hasn't yet picked up on the fact that the Earth is wider at the equator than it is at the poles.

Seattle and Munich are at roughly the same latitude as Seattle is at 47.6 degrees north while Munich is just a hair further north at 48 degrees. Tampa, on the other hand, is at 28 degrees north. It makes a big difference in travel times.

[NorthHawk]

There is a big difference in time zones, though.
I think we are 3 more zones away than TB, and that’s what’s most important.

[RiverDog]

There is a big difference in time zones, though.
I think we are 3 more zones away than TB, and that’s what’s most important.

That's true. But with three days to adjust? How long do you think it takes to get adjusted to a time change? 5 days? A week?

And like I said before, would you have rather played the Bucs in Tampa where we would have had 5.5 hour flight and a 3 time zone change while the Bucs got to sleep in their own beds with no time change at all? After all, it was their home game that got sacrificed.

Anyone in here remember all the discussions we had in the old PI forum about the east coast jinx? Why don't we talk about it anymore? Answer: Because after Pete arrived, we ended up with better teams than those on the east coast and started winning in the Eastern time zone, so the concern went away.

Next excuse?

[tarlhawk]

I'm not sure why footing would affect our running backs but not the opposition's. It sounds like another excuse to me, just like the time change excuse.

Seen some of the banter between you and I-5 over the field condition...and no one is looking for "excuses" why we lost...we got out coached and outplayed but those are not reasons to find excuses...it happens in the NFL all the time or the betting world would cease to thrive.

I've seen several sources besides my own eyes comment on how the field condition limited K9's running strengths making his "patience" at allowing "running lanes to open before cutting"...from a strength into a handicap. Tampa has an aggressive pursuit to catch "patient" running backs...but the remedy is quick misdirection...getting their pursuit to flow then plant foot and reverse direction...which K9 normally does very well at. His body language in open space still can make aggressive attacks miss (which is why he was elusive after some of his catches from Geno) but the running game misdirection is strongly aided by his ability to jump cut which was eliminated on a slick soccer field. Its not an excuse...its a logical observation. Tampa played on same field but different "style" of running and better interior line blocking.

I didn't mention the time difference as a difference maker because different people experience jet lag in a variety of ways...so I felt it might have affected both sides equally in an adverse manner...both teams were perhaps not at their best. The energized crowd made normal communication hard on both sides...our offense got a dose of what our home crowd advantage does to oposing offenses. Go Hawks!

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure why footing would affect our running backs but not the opposition's. It sounds like another excuse to me, just like the time change excuse.

Seen some of the banter between you and I-5 over the field condition...and no one is looking for "excuses" why we lost...we got out coached and outplayed but those are not reasons to find excuses...it happens in the NFL all the time or the betting world would cease to thrive.

I've seen several sources besides my own eyes comment on how the field condition limited K9's running strengths making his "patience" at allowing "running lanes to open before cutting"...from a strength into a handicap. Tampa has an aggressive pursuit to catch "patient" running backs...but the remedy is quick misdirection...getting their pursuit to flow then plant foot and reverse direction...which K9 normally does very well at. His body language in open space still can make aggressive attacks miss (which is why he was elusive after some of his catches from Geno) but the running game misdirection is strongly aided by his ability to jump cut which was eliminated on a slick soccer field. Its not an excuse...its a logical observation. Tampa played on same field but different "style" of running and better interior line blocking.

Understood. But field conditions vary at a lot of places. Arizona's turf is also very soft and spongy, probably because they have to water the hell out of it in the summer to keep it green (HT, you might want to chime in on that one). I can remember Stephen Hauscka complaining about it. And how about the field conditions the Niners played in at Chicago this season? Or the cold at Lambeau? I once saw a game played in Chicago where it was so foggy that they had to use field cameras for all the TV angles. Field conditions are part of the game.

I didn't mention the time difference as a difference maker because different people experience jet lag in a variety of ways...so I felt it might have affected both sides equally in an adverse manner...both teams were perhaps not at their best. The energized crowd made normal communication hard on both sides...our offense got a dose of what our home crowd advantage does to oposing offenses. Go Hawks!

Honest question: Has anyone heard any of the players or coaches on either team complain about the time change? If it's like the old east coast jinx, it's mostly a fan/media driven subject.

Being that this game was originally scheduled to be played in the Bucs home stadium in Tampa, I would say that they got the short end of the stick when it came to communication problems generated by the energized crowd.

[I-5]

Field conditions are always a factor. Tarl said it better than I could, but the sloppy soccer field surface clearly affected some players more than others. Doesn't mean it's an excuse or that TB didn't deserve to win. They played better, they won.

Players are never going to talk about things like being tired and time zone changes...doesn't mean it's not a factor. Who knows if they would have played better after another day in Germany.

We lost mostly because we couldn't stop the run, which made it easy for Brady to pick our pass defense apart. So, no excuses why we lost, but to completely discount these factors I find strange.

[RiverDog]

Field conditions are always a factor. Tarl said it better than I could, but the sloppy soccer field surface clearly affected some players more than others. Doesn't mean it's an excuse or that TB didn't deserve to win. They played better, they won.

Players are never going to talk about things like being tired and time zone changes...doesn't mean it's not a factor. Who knows if they would have played better after another day in Germany.

We lost mostly because we couldn't stop the run, which made it easy for Brady to pick our pass defense apart. So, no excuses why we lost, but to completely discount these factors I find strange.

I'm not completely discounting those factors. It's just that they seem to get discussed a lot more in a loss than they do in a win. Had we won that game, I doubt that there would have been a discussion about Walker's jump cuts. Plus add in the complaints about the time change, travel, refereeing, etc, if not an excuse, it makes it sound like a lot of whining.

Despite all the years of complaining about the east coast jinx, there has never been any west coast team that has brought it up to the competition committee. If it were that big of a problem, the league could have made the host east coast teams start games at 4pm ET so that the west coast teams wouldn't have to contend with their bodies having to convert to the earlier time. That leads me to believe that coaches and players do not feel that the time change is that big of a deal, that it's driven by the fans and the media.

And just a personal note. Off and on for 40 years, like about 20% of the working population, I've worked hours other than the traditional 9am-5pm. I once had a shift where once a week, I'd have to work from 3pm to 11pm, get 8 hours off, then be back to work at 7am and work to 3pm. We used to call it "doubling back." When working graveyards, when I got off work at 7am for my two days off, I'd have to try to stay awake long enough on my first day off so I could get to sleep that night so I could have a normal 2nd day off. As a result, I'm not very sympathetic to professional athletes that have 72 frigging hours to get adjusted to a time change.

[I-5]

And just a personal note. Off and on for 40 years, like about 20% of the working population, I've worked hours other than the traditional 9am-5pm. I once had a shift where once a week, I'd have to work from 3pm to 11pm, get 8 hours off, then be back to work at 7am and work to 3pm. We used to call it "doubling back." When working graveyards, when I got off work at 7am for my two days off, I'd have to try to stay awake long enough on my first day off so I could get to sleep that night so I could have a normal 2nd day off. As a result, I'm not very sympathetic to professional athletes that have 72 frigging hours to get adjusted to a time change.

Sure, no need to be sympathetic. You of all people then know the challenges of dealing with time issues. It's not an excuse, but observable fact. We still got beaten by a better team that day. One could say east coast playing a Monday night game on the west coast have a slight disadvantage too. That's fair. Anyway, I remember the east coast jinx and how once LOB arrived, it seemed to be less of a factor.

[Hawktawk]

For one more time it’s a world of difference from rotating shifts in a plant and playing in the NFL River . Blame Seattle for everything. Our biggest problem was being unable to stop the run . But we got up at 3 AM to play at 6:30 AM. The media is all over it as a factor but hate on Seattle all you like man .
It’s a huge factor teeing off with an internal clock hours before you ever turned a wheel since you were in pee wee ball . Then the field is absolute s*** . And yeah with 37 years experience in golf course management I’ll chime in alright . There is no reason to be irrigating turf in the northern hemisphere in mid November . It was improper for an NFL game or a soccer game for that matter . Beyond a fair competitive game it’s a safety issue. Chris Clemons blew his knee when bad turf gave way in landover on fed ex in the 2012 WC. Mite have been nice to have him vs Atlanta . Jimmy G blew his acl in a home game scrambling on the left sideline when the turf gave away . As many problems as AstroTurf has a bad grass field is just as dangerous . We played at a significant disadvantage and could not overcome it .

[Aseahawkfan]

Both Tampa Bay and Seattle flew overseas. It wasn't why we lost. Tampa Bay has a great defense and they held us to a historically low for running yards. That has nothing to do with distance traveled. Their defense played a really good game much like Frisco shut us down even worse.

Fact is a strong run defense really hammers Seattle. Anyone playing us knows this at this point. Stuff the run and get a lead going into the fourth quarter, you have a great chance of beating Seattle.

Our team's weakness is a strong D-line that can stop the run without weakening the pass defense. Tampa Bay did that. We know Frisco can do that. But can the Rams? We will see soon.

[RiverDog]

For one more time it’s a world of difference from rotating shifts in a plant and playing in the NFL River . Blame Seattle for everything. Our biggest problem was being unable to stop the run . But we got up at 3 AM to play at 6:30 AM. The media is all over it as a factor but hate on Seattle all you like man .
It’s a huge factor teeing off with an internal clock hours before you ever turned a wheel since you were in pee wee ball . Then the field is absolute s*** . And yeah with 37 years experience in golf course management I’ll chime in alright . There is no reason to be irrigating turf in the northern hemisphere in mid November . It was improper for an NFL game or a soccer game for that matter . Beyond a fair competitive game it’s a safety issue. Chris Clemons blew his knee when bad turf gave way in landover on fed ex in the 2012 WC. Mite have been nice to have him vs Atlanta . Jimmy G blew his acl in a home game scrambling on the left sideline when the turf gave away . As many problems as AstroTurf has a bad grass field is just as dangerous . We played at a significant disadvantage and could not overcome it .

Cry me a river!

[Hawktawk]

For one more time it’s a world of difference from rotating shifts in a plant and playing in the NFL River . Blame Seattle for everything. Our biggest problem was being unable to stop the run . But we got up at 3 AM to play at 6:30 AM. The media is all over it as a factor but hate on Seattle all you like man .
It’s a huge factor teeing off with an internal clock hours before you ever turned a wheel since you were in pee wee ball . Then the field is absolute s*** . And yeah with 37 years experience in golf course management I’ll chime in alright . There is no reason to be irrigating turf in the northern hemisphere in mid November . It was improper for an NFL game or a soccer game for that matter . Beyond a fair competitive game it’s a safety issue. Chris Clemons blew his knee when bad turf gave way in landover on fed ex in the 2012 WC. Mite have been nice to have him vs Atlanta . Jimmy G blew his acl in a home game scrambling on the left sideline when the turf gave away . As many problems as AstroTurf has a bad grass field is just as dangerous . We played at a significant disadvantage and could not overcome it .

Cry me a river![/quote]
Blame Seattle for everything . It’s you . It was the league throwing Tom a patsy teeing off at 6:30 Am pacific time with a team so weak they had Lock murals in Germany . They didn’t give a F about us we were a sacrificial lamb arising at 3 am west coast time. But I know / you blame Seattle every time .

[Aseahawkfan]

Blame Seattle for everything . It’s you . It was the league throwing Tom a patsy teeing off at 6:30 Am pacific time with a team so weak they had Lock murals in Germany . They didn’t give a F about us we were a sacrificial lamb arising at 3 am west coast time. But I know / you blame Seattle every time .

17 yards by a RB isn't travel distance. 39 total running yards is pretty terrible.

[RiverDog]

Blame Seattle for everything . It’s you . It was the league throwing Tom a patsy teeing off at 6:30 Am pacific time with a team so weak they had Lock murals in Germany . They didn’t give a F about us we were a sacrificial lamb arising at 3 am west coast time. But I know / you blame Seattle every time .

17 yards by a RB isn't travel distance. 39 total running yards is pretty terrible.

Yep. Historically bad.

If we had a week to get adjusted, Hawktawk would still be using it as an excuse for our losing. If 72 hours wasn't long enough to get adjusted, I wonder how our army was ever able to defeat Hitler after having to contend with that time change.

[Hawktawk]

It ain’t scheduling semis river. It’s the N F of L buddy /

I’ll make it short and sweet . I blame one huge disadvantage . Getting out of bed at 3 AM with 3 days to adjust . It’s ridiculous . No excuse for it and CBS sports at a minimum agrees with me , not the most self loathing Seahawks fan on the planet which is you . It is foolish to suggest playing against a team 3 time zones ( later ) removed 3.5 days later isn’t a disadvantage. Stupid .

You’re the only guy I know who will passionately defend Bill Leavys crew . Nit sure what’s up with ya man . A terrible unsafe field that totally negated our advantage in quickness and speed was window dressing . The game sucked . The venue sucked. It was a huge speed bump to my team . But cry me a river right ? Eat it hawks ! Overcome! Not sure what’s your problem . Why spend all this time when you hate your team so much )

[tarlhawk]

This game was not a "downer". Adversity hits every team in the NFL because of the nature of the game...good teams lick their wounds for a day after gleaning what can be learned from the defeat and prepare and execute in the following games with new found enthusiasm. In some ways Tampa reflects some of the team strengths that our own team is being molded and shaped into. Todd Bowles has shaped his defensive style over the past years with the Cardinals and now the Buccaneers...they utilize team speed and disguise pass coverages well. Our young team has only begun in that defensive direction and continues to improve with excellent coaching.


Their offense led by Brady has seasoned "top tier" receivers that feature a quick time tempo and accurate delivery from the QB. Geno seems closer to Tom Brady than he does Mahomes or Josh Allen...utilizing a keen coverage recognition to set up Waldron's playbook with quick accurate decisive throws to some top tier WRs of our own. Tampa's quick tempo offense got a shot of adrenalin from a previous anemic rushing game...and we didn't have the answers fast enough to respond. Tampa just represents a more seasoned reflection of where we want our young team to go offensively ...and defensively. We closed the game without embarassing ourselves or giving up when faced with an inspired Tom Brady who was on his "A" game while we stumbled out of the gate thru much of the first three quarters of the game.

They tried to embarrass us thinking Woolen as a rookie could be counted on to leave Brady alone for a Gadget play but Tariq gave the proper response with the gifted interception and instead created some post game media shade on Tampa for even attempting it.
Even when losing our team made it exciting as we ran out of time...and plays. It serves notice for future opponents "not to sleep" on us...even in a year where we continue sharpening our "retooling" efforts. No "shame"...just "game". Go Hawks!

[RiverDog]

This game was not a "downer". Adversity hits every team in the NFL because of the nature of the game...good teams lick their wounds for a day after gleaning what can be learned from the defeat and prepare and execute in the following games with new found enthusiasm. In some ways Tampa reflects some of the team strengths that our own team is being molded and shaped into. Todd Bowles has shaped his defensive style over the past years with the Cardinals and now the Buccaneers...they utilize team speed and disguise pass coverages well. Our young team has only begun in that defensive direction and continues to improve with excellent coaching.

Their offense led by Brady has seasoned "top tier" receivers that feature a quick time tempo and accurate delivery from the QB. Geno seems closer to Tom Brady than he does Mahomes or Josh Allen...utilizing a keen coverage recognition to set up Waldron's playbook with quick accurate decisive throws to some top tier WRs of our own. Tampa's quick tempo offense got a shot of adrenalin from a previous anemic rushing game...and we didn't have the answers fast enough to respond. Tampa just represents a more seasoned reflection of where we want our young team to go offensively ...and defensively. We closed the game without embarassing ourselves or giving up when faced with an inspired Tom Brady who was on his "A" game while we stumbled out of the gate thru much of the first three quarters of the game.

They tried to embarrass us thinking Woolen as a rookie could be counted on to leave Brady alone for a Gadget play but Tariq gave the proper response with the gifted interception and instead created some post game media shade on Tampa for even attempting it.
Even when losing our team made it exciting as we ran out of time...and plays. It serves notice for future opponents "not to sleep" on us...even in a year where we continue sharpening our "retooling" efforts. No "shame"...just "game". Go Hawks!

I agree. There is no shame in losing to Tom Brady. And I agree about the gadget play, that it was a wake-up call to Woolen, something that he'll remember.

I don't think that the wheels are falling off the wagon. This kind of game was bound to happen. We've had a lot of breaks go our way in route to our unexpected first place standing, so IMO it was inevitable that somewhere on this 17 game schedule, we were going to run into an opponent that was more prepared than we were and that we would match up less favorably with than we had in our previous games.

But we're going to have to rebound, put the loss behind us, and get on with business. We have a very favorable schedule going down the stretch, one where we play the Raiders, Rams, and Panthers, teams that have had more than their share of problems and of which we should beat, not to mention the number of home games vs. away. I'm still leery of the Niners as I feel that they're one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the conference, but we should be able to get to Hawktawk's 10 wins and sneak into the playoffs.

[I-5]

Kudos to tarlhawk for the proper perspective. No one likes the result, but I feel very good about our team, and they learned some things. I thought Brady and his receivers looked a level above everyone else, and I think it will make our team better having experienced playing on this stage. It's all good.

[Hawktawk]

When the NFL decided to schedule the game they chose the GOAT and a team 2 years removed from a championship as one contestant . As the other they chose a team that had traded their franchise qb and cut their defensive leader . The team was the # 29 power ranked team with a presumed starter ranked 36 by noted unbiased writer Mike Sando . The league wasn’t even that impressed as they printed only Drew Lock murals for promoting Seattle and didn’t completely correct it as Lock murals hung in Munich . As a west coast team their internal clock was 3 am when they got out of bed while Tompon got to get up at 6 AM. The league knew all this when scheduling this matchup . The field was in the words of Pete Carroll “ a nightmare but even , guys didn’t know when the turf was going to give away “ .
It’s inexcusable , it negates an advantage in speed which Seattle certainly has. It’s unsafe . The field in London when we played Oakland was bad too but at least it was 2 teams from the same time zone . The entire experience was designed with league blessing to allow Tom Brady to put another trophy in his case . It angers me . All those disadvantages still had a shot . We would kill that team on a fast track playing in the daytime . Hopefully we get a chance . Less bothered by this loss the more I look at it . Bad football brought to you courtesy of the inturd national series .

[I-5]

When the NFL decided to schedule the game they chose the GOAT and a team 2 years removed from a championship as one contestant . As the other they chose a team that had traded their franchise qb and cut their defensive leader . The team was the # 29 power ranked team with a presumed starter ranked 36 by noted unbiased writer Mike Sando . The league wasn’t even that impressed as they printed only Drew Lock murals for promoting Seattle and didn’t completely correct it as Lock murals hung in Munich . As a west coast team their internal clock was 3 am when they got out of bed while Tompon got to get up at 6 AM. The league knew all this when scheduling this matchup . The field was in the words of Pete Carroll “ a nightmare but even , guys didn’t know when the turf was going to give away “ .
It’s inexcusable , it negates an advantage in speed which Seattle certainly has. It’s unsafe . The field in London when we played Oakland was bad too but at least it was 2 teams from the same time zone . The entire experience was designed with league blessing to allow Tom Brady to put another trophy in his case . It angers me . All those disadvantages still had a shot . We would kill that team on a fast track playing in the daytime . Hopefully we get a chance . Less bothered by this loss the more I look at it . Bad football brought to you courtesy of the inturd national series .

HT, everything you're saying could be true. It could also be true that they chose the Seahawks because of the rabid following the team has enjoyed since the LOB days when Germans first started following the NFL en masse. We've heard about Seahawks fever in Germany for a few months at least, if not years. At least I have. Having Marshawn there the week prior was part of the hoopla and hype that got Germans excited.

[Hawktawk]

The stadium was pro Brady . They were singing john denver to us when Tompon iced it . The rumors of this huge Seahawks fan base were overblown or at a minimum they couldn’t get tickets . As for what I wrote it’s all true . It didn’t make Geno fumble . Didn’t explain getting outcoached severely . But in a 1 score game the primarily huge major handicap of 3 AM wake-up call and 6:30 AM tee off, probably 3 hours earlier then any guy on the roster ever kicked off was huge and it showed with mental errors . It’s over . They made it hard on Seattle and they made it even harder on themselves . It doesn’t dispute the fact it wasn’t a level playing field . Yeah I get it this POS international series is here to stay . Get teams from the same time zone and make sure the field is ready for the best fastest most violent athletes in the world to put on a show .

[I-5]

Good point, they could at least get teams from the same time zone. If anyone complains, then make the Bucs play a West Coast team at a game in Tokyo.

[RiverDog]

Good point, they could at least get teams from the same time zone. If anyone complains, then make the Bucs play a West Coast team at a game in Tokyo.

Completely unworkable idea. Get your map of the US out. There's only 5 teams (Seattle, SF, LAx2, and LV) in the Pacific time zone and just two (Denver and Arizona) in the Mountain time zone. Everyone else is in the Central or Eastern time zones. Do you want to sacrifice a Seattle vs. Rams or Niners game to the international series? We only play the Chargers and Raiders once every 4 years and at home once every 8 years, so those are the games you're talking about. And what about Denver and Arizona? They're not even in the same conference and play once every 4 years.

Once the series expands to Japan and Australia, then they might want to talk about matching up foreign markets to NFL teams based on their geography, if for nothing else, to make airline connections for domestic fans easier to make. But that's a good 5 years down the road.

I keep asking the question, but none of you has even attempted to answer it. The Hawks traveled to Munich on Thursday and played on Sunday, giving them somewhere between 60 and 72 hours, two and a half to three days, to get their bodies adjusted prior to the game. If that's not sufficient, how much time is? 5 days? A week? Two weeks? And what about the Bucs? They arrived on a Friday, so they had even less time, from 36 to 48 hours, for their bodies to adjust.

The other thing that none of you want to talk about is would you have rather us not traveled to Munich and instead, played the game in Tampa where it was originally scheduled to be? Would you have rather taken a 5.5 hour flight and three time zone change while the Bucs got to sleep in their own beds and not have to deal with any time zone change?

You guys are making way, way too much out of this time zone change. I can see scheduling teams from different conferences simply because it makes sense to use the 17th game as the neutral site game so that teams don't have to sacrifice a home field advantage in a conference game. But outside of that, I don't see any problem whatsoever with the international series, and I hope that they expand it to all 4 corners of the world.

[Hawktawk]

Good point, they could at least get teams from the same time zone. If anyone complains, then make the Bucs play a West Coast team at a game in Tokyo.

Completely unworkable idea. Get your map of the US out. There's only 5 teams (Seattle, SF, LAx2, and LV) in the Pacific time zone and just two (Denver and Arizona) in the Mountain time zone. Everyone else is in the Central or Eastern time zones. Do you want to sacrifice a Seattle vs. Rams or Niners game to the international series? We only play the Chargers and Raiders once every 4 years and at home once every 8 years, so those are the games you're talking about. And what about Denver and Arizona? They're not even in the same conference and play once every 4 years.

Once the series expands to Japan and Australia, then they might want to talk about matching up foreign markets to NFL teams based on their geography, if for nothing else, to make airline connections for domestic fans easier to make. But that's a good 5 years down the road.

I keep asking the question, but none of you has even attempted to answer it. The Hawks traveled to Munich on Thursday and played on Sunday, giving them somewhere between 60 and 72 hours, two and a half to three days, to get their bodies adjusted prior to the game. If that's not sufficient, how much time is? 5 days? A week? Two weeks? And what about the Bucs? They arrived on a Friday, so they had even less time, from 36 to 48 hours, for their bodies to adjust.

The other thing that none of you want to talk about is would you have rather us not traveled to Munich and instead, played the game in Tampa where it was originally scheduled to be? Would you have rather taken a 5.5 hour flight and three time zone change while the Bucs got to sleep in their own beds and not have to deal with any time zone change?

You guys are making way, way too much out of this time zone change. I can see scheduling teams from different conferences simply because it makes sense to use the 17th game as the neutral site game so that teams don't have to sacrifice a home field advantage in a conference game. But outside of that, I don't see any problem whatsoever with the international series, and I hope that they expand it to all 4 corners of the world.[/quote]

Internal clock . Throw out time change . Internal clock . One teams internal clock was 9:30 AM, one teams was 6:30 AM. At kickoff . Our internal clock was 9:30 AM when the game was ending . Why is this so difficult ?

River I don’t mean to impugn what you did for a living but what I do might be more relevant to the situation here . You worked rotating shifts , I’ve not worked nights as a schedule since college . So I get up at 4 AM to be at my job by 5. Most of the last 4 decades . If it’s a rare day off I wake up at 4 with no alarm clock . If I’m on vacation I wake up at 4 o’clock . In the dead of winter when I start at 7 I wake up at 4 AM. It’s a curse frankly . It’s an internal clock from hell . My guess is most pro athletes have a fastidious routine of workout , nutrition , awake asleep times. That internal clock on an athlete isn’t changing in 3 days or 3 weeks or 3 months . It’s got to be dealt with . So it’s simple . Schedule teams from the same time zone , certainly not as far apart in a disadvantageous way as a west coast east coast matchup that early in the day . It was a clear disadvantage . Asking one team to arise 3 hours ahead of their body clock to kick off at 6:30 AM .

And as a turf manager , a damn good one there’s no excuse for the field conditions like those . Zero . Incompetence or intentional it was a field that favored a heavier straight ahead lineup . Regardless of whether one calls it an excuse or whatever it’s a safety hazard . Bowles agreed with Carroll. Said the field was slick “ even with long cleats on “ that makes it even more dangerous when your 1” cleat finds solid turf while sliding out .

My feelings on the series are known , probably shared by a majority of AMERICAN FANS, especially west coast. It lines the leagues pockets , it screws the competitive balance with matchups like this and it’s not safe for my team . This fan cares about the American game , not a bunch of dumb asses singing john Denver on the mudhole . F Goodell .
F this cluster . If you’re gonna do it make it fair and make it safe .

[RiverDog]

I keep asking the question, but none of you has even attempted to answer it. The Hawks traveled to Munich on Thursday and played on Sunday, giving them somewhere between 60 and 72 hours, two and a half to three days, to get their bodies adjusted prior to the game. If that's not sufficient, how much time is? 5 days? A week? Two weeks? And what about the Bucs? They arrived on a Friday, so they had even less time, from 36 to 48 hours, for their bodies to adjust.

The other thing that none of you want to talk about is would you have rather us not traveled to Munich and instead, played the game in Tampa where it was originally scheduled to be? Would you have rather taken a 5.5 hour flight and three time zone change while the Bucs got to sleep in their own beds and not have to deal with any time zone change?

You guys are making way, way too much out of this time zone change. I can see scheduling teams from different conferences simply because it makes sense to use the 17th game as the neutral site game so that teams don't have to sacrifice a home field advantage in a conference game. But outside of that, I don't see any problem whatsoever with the international series, and I hope that they expand it to all 4 corners of the world.

Internal clock . Throw out time change . Internal clock . One teams internal clock was 9:30 AM, one teams was 6:30 AM. At kickoff . Our internal clock was 9:30 AM when the game was ending . Why is this so difficult ?

River I don’t mean to impugn what you did for a living but what I do might be more relevant to the situation here . You worked rotating shifts , I’ve not worked nights as a schedule since college . So I get up at 4 AM to be at my job by 5. Most of the last 4 decades . If it’s a rare day off I wake up at 4 with no alarm clock . If I’m on vacation I wake up at 4 o’clock . In the dead of winter when I start at 7 I wake up at 4 AM. It’s a curse frankly . It’s an internal clock from hell . My guess is most pro athletes have a fastidious routine of workout , nutrition , awake asleep times. That internal clock on an athlete isn’t changing in 3 days or 3 weeks or 3 months . It’s got to be dealt with . So it’s simple . Schedule teams from the same time zone , certainly not as far apart in a disadvantageous way as a west coast east coast matchup that early in the day . It was a clear disadvantage . Asking one team to arise 3 hours ahead of their body clock to kick off at 6:30 AM .

And as a turf manager , a damn good one there’s no excuse for the field conditions like those . Zero . Incompetence or intentional it was a field that favored a heavier straight ahead lineup . Regardless of whether one calls it an excuse or whatever it’s a safety hazard . Bowles agreed with Carroll. Said the field was slick “ even with long cleats on “ that makes it even more dangerous when your 1” cleat finds solid turf while sliding out .

My feelings on the series are known , probably shared by a majority of AMERICAN FANS, especially west coast. It lines the leagues pockets , it screws the competitive balance with matchups like this and it’s not safe for my team . This fan cares about the American game , not a bunch of dumb asses singing john Denver on the mudhole . F Goodell .
F this cluster . If you’re gonna do it make it fair and make it safe .

Before we go any further, I would appreciate it if you would answer the 3 questions I posed to you and the others.

Question #1: The Seahawks arrived in Munich on the Thursday before the game on Sunday. That gave them somewhere between 60 and 72 hours by which to get their bodies adjusted to the time zone change. If, in your opinion, 2.5 to 3 days is not a long enough time for the typical human body to adjust its internal clock, then how much time do you think is required? You can't seriously argue that it doesn't change even in 3 months.

Question #2: The Bucs arrived on Friday, or roughly 36 to 48 hours prior to kickoff. Granted, Seattle had a 9 hour time zone change, but the Bucs had a significant change as well, a 6 hour change. If Seattle's 60-72 hours to adjust to a 9 hour change wasn't sufficient, why would 36-48 hours be enough time for the Bucs to get adjusted to their 6 hour change?

Question #3: And lastly, as far as the time change issue is concerned, would you have preferred that the game have been played in its original planned location, Tampa FL, knowing that the Hawks would have had a 5.5 hour flight and a 3 hour time change while the Bucs stayed at home and didn't have any change at all?

Based on my personal experience having worked graveyard shifts of and on for 40 years and having to change my internal clock from sleeping 8am-3pm on my workdays to 10pm to 6am on my days off once a week, it takes 24 to 36 hours for the typical human body to adjust to an 8 hour or so time change. Until someone can show me some type of credible scientific or medical evidence to the contrary, I'm not buying the time zone argument.

[NorthHawk]

I worked shift work for about 5 years and it messed with my internal clock to the point that I still can't sleep well after about 30 years.
As well, every time I went to Europe it took me about a week to fully adjust. I was just "off" for that period of time with the first 3 days being the worst where I was just exhausted.
For other people it only took a day or 2 but it seems to affect me worse than the others. With there being such a fine line between success and failure on any play or game in the NFL,
it's reasonable to assume there will be varying degrees of impact on different players from the travel and maybe it's a part of the reason there is rarely a really good game there.

[RiverDog]

I worked shift work for about 5 years and it messed with my internal clock to the point that I still can't sleep well after about 30 years.
As well, every time I went to Europe it took me about a week to fully adjust. I was just "off" for that period of time with the first 3 days being the worst where I was just exhausted.
For other people it only took a day or 2 but it seems to affect me worse than the others. With there being such a fine line between success and failure on any play or game in the NFL,
it's reasonable to assume there will be varying degrees of impact on different players from the travel and maybe it's a part of the reason there is rarely a really good game there.

OK, so you answered one question. A week to fully adjust. I don't agree, but at least you answered Question #1.

So how about the other two questions I asked? If the time zone change hindered the Hawks, why wouldn't it affect the Bucs as well? Is there that big of a difference between 9 hours and 6 hours where an extra 24 hours to adjust wouldn't equalize the effect?

And as far as the time zone change issue is concerned, would you have rather played the game in Tampa?

[Hawktawk]

I worked shift work for about 5 years and it messed with my internal clock to the point that I still can't sleep well after about 30 years.
As well, every time I went to Europe it took me about a week to fully adjust. I was just "off" for that period of time with the first 3 days being the worst where I was just exhausted.
For other people it only took a day or 2 but it seems to affect me worse than the others. With there being such a fine line between success and failure on any play or game in the NFL,
it's reasonable to assume there will be varying degrees of impact on different players from the travel and maybe it's a part of the reason there is rarely a really good game there.

Exactly North . As I’ve said repeatedly to our friend river it’s not working in a simplot plant or working on a golf course . It isn’t a primarily mental game or blur collar work job. It’s quick twitch blink of an eye explosion with success or failure determined in a fraction of a second . Throwing out all the nonsense about jet lag or 2 vs 3 days one team got out of bed by probably 3 AM when they would be in REM sleep and the other at a normal wake time . River gets this , he just would rather not be wrong then stick up for the team . When I’m seeing Geno who is normally razor sharp at the line get a delay , burn a timeout and take a sack on 3 plays in a row on our first posession probably 6:45 AM pacific time I said yup . No question it was a huge intentional handicap imposed by the league to help Tom Brady . Someone is fine with Seattle getting boned like that it’s your problem . I’m a better Hawks fan then that .

[RiverDog]

I worked shift work for about 5 years and it messed with my internal clock to the point that I still can't sleep well after about 30 years.
As well, every time I went to Europe it took me about a week to fully adjust. I was just "off" for that period of time with the first 3 days being the worst where I was just exhausted.
For other people it only took a day or 2 but it seems to affect me worse than the others. With there being such a fine line between success and failure on any play or game in the NFL,
it's reasonable to assume there will be varying degrees of impact on different players from the travel and maybe it's a part of the reason there is rarely a really good game there.

Exactly North . As I’ve said repeatedly to our friend river it’s not working in a simplot plant or working on a golf course . It isn’t a primarily mental game or blur collar work job. It’s quick twitch blink of an eye explosion with success or failure determined in a fraction of a second . Throwing out all the nonsense about jet lag or 2 vs 3 days one team got out of bed by probably 3 AM when they would be in REM sleep and the other at a normal wake time . River gets this , he just would rather not be wrong then stick up for the team . When I’m seeing Geno who is normally razor sharp at the line get a delay , burn a timeout and take a sack on 3 plays in a row on our first posession probably 6:45 AM pacific time I said yup . No question it was a huge intentional handicap imposed by the league to help Tom Brady . Someone is fine with Seattle getting boned like that it’s your problem . I’m a better Hawks fan then that .

Tom Hanks: There's no crying in baseball!" (or football)

[Hawktawk]

I’ll downgrade Seattle when they play bad and they did too much of a game when both teams played on a dangerous slick field and one tees off at 6:30 AM and the other at 9:30. I’ll also rightfully and backed up by sports writers in saying asking a team to kick off that early when the other has a 3 hour break is not fair . It’s not that it’s “ only 3 hours “ ITS WHICH 3!!!!how is that hard ?
Hate your team all you want : I’ll call a spade a spade instead of kissing Roger Goodells butt cause I like this wonderful international cluster . Put it on MNF if you are so proud of it . Same time zone . Fix the field .
But chant your slogan .

[I-5]

And as far as the time zone change issue is concerned, would you have rather played the game in Tampa?

That's a no brainer. Of course we would rather play the game in Tampa. One, less time zone body clock adjustment, and two, more competent field surface. The Tampa home field advantage is minimal from a crowd noise standpoint.

I do think the Seahawks got outschemed and outplayed no matter where or when the game was played, so that's the real issue. It will make us better down the stretch knowing we have that much work to do. They won't be complacent during the bye, that's for sure. Losing sucks, and the players and coaches have to live with that taste in their mouth for 2 weeks.

[RiverDog]

And as far as the time zone change issue is concerned, would you have rather played the game in Tampa?

That's a no brainer. Of course we would rather play the game in Tampa. One, less time zone body clock adjustment, and two, more competent field surface. The Tampa home field advantage is minimal from a crowd noise standpoint.

Exactly! If you believe that the time change issue is legitimate, we got a helluva break by having that game's venue rescheduled to Munich. Thanks, you're the only one that acknowledged that fact.

As far as the crowd noise factor goes, obviously it was a lot louder in Munich than it would have been at Tampa's outdoor stadium and relatively passive fan base. I'd have to talk to people that were actually there but keeping in mind that for the first 3 quarters, it was almost all Tampa Bay so their fans had more to cheer about, it seemed to me that the crowd was relatively evenly split between Bucs and Hawks fans.

I do think the Seahawks got outschemed and outplayed no matter where or when the game was played, so that's the real issue. It will make us better down the stretch knowing we have that much work to do. They won't be complacent during the bye, that's for sure. Losing sucks, and the players and coaches have to live with that taste in their mouth for 2 weeks.

It's hard to tell how this team will handle the loss, but they have no reason to be down on themselves. As someone said earlier, there is no shame in the way they played or in losing to Tom Brady. They're still in first place in their division and playing well above expectations.

[I-5]

Exactly! If you believe that the time change issue is legitimate, we got a helluva break by having that game's venue rescheduled to Munich. Thanks, you're the only one that acknowledged that fact.

No, you got that wrong. We would do MUCH better playing in Tampa, so we were more disadvantaged in Munich. Don't know how you came up with that, but I 100% disagree no matter what you think you heard. We were at a greater disadvantage playing in Munich.

It's hard to tell how this team will handle the loss, but they have no reason to be down on themselves. As someone said earlier, there is no shame in the way they played or in losing to Tom Brady. They're still in first place in their division and playing well above expectations.

Yep, we're fine.

[RiverDog]

No, you got that wrong. We would do MUCH better playing in Tampa, so we were more disadvantaged in Munich. Don't know how you came up with that, but I 100% disagree no matter what you think you heard. We were at a greater disadvantage playing in Munich.

Ahh, my bad. My reading comprehension is off. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But at least you answered the question.

But I'm not changing my POV until someone shows me some scientific or medical evidence/study into the short term effects of a time zone change.

[Aseahawkfan]

Ahh, my bad. My reading comprehension is off. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But at least you answered the question.

But I'm not changing my POV until someone shows me some scientific or medical evidence/study into the short term effects of a time zone change.

We went there early from what I understand to prepare the system for the time zone change. Not sure why people are bringing that up given we went to Germany earlier than Tampa Bay specifically to counter the time zone change. The Seahawks were in Germany on November 10 giving themselves almost 4 days to acclimate.

https://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/nfl/seattle-seahawks/article268569977.html

Bucs arrived a day later:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-11417673/Tom-Brady-Tampa-Bay-arrive-Germany-looks-remain-undefeated-post-divorce-Gisele.html

So this argument about not acclimating tot he time zone change is pure rubbish. Both teams arrived early enough to acclimate, get enough rest, and be ready to play Sunday.

This is just typical fan excuse making. Then change the goalposts every time as well. My buddy is doing the same crap. Bragged about Seattle winning the next four games easy, then we lose to the Bucs and he has excuses coming out like hot air in a popped hot air balloon.

Tampa Bay outplayed us and beat us Sunday. They dominated on run defense and that was enough to shut us down and Geno still has yet to do a comeback in a game where we're behind. That has to change for any shot in the playoffs of a deep run.

[RiverDog]

We went there early from what I understand to prepare the system for the time zone change. Not sure why people are bringing that up given we went to Germany earlier than Tampa Bay specifically to counter the time zone change. The Seahawks were in Germany on November 10 giving themselves almost 4 days to acclimate.

https://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/nfl/seattle-seahawks/article268569977.html

Bucs arrived a day later:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-11417673/Tom-Brady-Tampa-Bay-arrive-Germany-looks-remain-undefeated-post-divorce-Gisele.html

So this argument about not acclimating tot he time zone change is pure rubbish. Both teams arrived early enough to acclimate, get enough rest, and be ready to play Sunday.

This is just typical fan excuse making. Then change the goalposts every time as well. My buddy is doing the same crap. Bragged about Seattle winning the next four games easy, then we lose to the Bucs and he has excuses coming out like hot air in a popped hot air balloon.

Tampa Bay outplayed us and beat us Sunday. They dominated on run defense and that was enough to shut us down and Geno still has yet to do a comeback in a game where we're behind. That has to change for any shot in the playoffs of a deep run.

Thank you.

[Hawktawk]

Good God!!!!Its not time change !!!!!Its a DIFFERENT INTERNAL CLOCK between a west and east coast team and its a humongous disadvantage to the team waking up at 3 AM and as i say i have sportswriters that do this for a living that agree with me.
Not you.
Tampa won. It wasn't fair and square. Doesn't mean we didn't have the opportunity to win anyway as we did. It didn't cause a fumble but it caused a lot of mental errors early on with Geno, the line calls etc.

As the first words of the CBS SPORTS ARTICLE SAID "Seattle kicked off with body clocks at 6:30 AM and slept through the first half" AMEN AND HALLELUJAH
Its no coincidence we won the second half IMO.
Walk and chew gum as a fan please . Good lord its not hard. We weren't good enough to win teeing up at 6;30 AM and our pampered proffered opponent having the luxury of WAKING UP with an internal clock of 6:30 when we were kicking off after WAKING UP at 3 AM.

You all want to sound stupid keep this up. It was a clear and intentional disadvantage. You go ahead and kiss goodells ass. Ill not be joining you.
And of course I want the game in Tampa. I want them all in America frankly but as I5 says, the internal clock issue doesn't exist, Its 10 AM, a half hour later then Tampa got to kick off last Sunday in the middle of the night here. Its not 6:30 pacific time. Its 10 AM. Its easy fellas, simple math. Pete has done well playing in the east anyway. Its not even a valid comparison to the joke we watched in the early morning hours.

And its an excellent well maintained grass surface instead of some quagmire . Tampa any time vs those Fing retarded krauts singing John Denver and having no clue how to cheer. Its a freakin joke.
Put it on MNF Roger. I dare you . A bunch of idiot Germans singing John Denver from a mudhole. It will be a rating hit.

[mykc14]

Honest question: Has anyone heard any of the players or coaches on either team complain about the time change?

Bruce Irvin complained about the start time and the field conditions. Personally the times zones might have had a small impact, but I think the field had a larger impact. Yes both teams play on the same field and field conditions are never perfectly consistent, but they will tend to favor one type of team over another. I do think that the advantages that our speed gives over Tampa was reduced due to the field. Not blaming the loss on it or complaining about it, just saying I think it was a factor. It's a factor that we need to overcome, but a factor nonetheless (IMO).

[Aseahawkfan]

Tampa Bay won, fair and square.

If you can't beat a team who played in the same conditions you did no matter what the refs are doing, don't expect to win any Super Bowls. You want to win the playoffs, there are no excuses to be had and no trophies for excuses.

Losers make excuses. Winners overcome obstacles.