Pete ball

[trents]

It occurred to me that the Hawks' recent metamorphosis coincides with the resurrection of Pete ball. Strong run game, stingy defense and avoiding turnovers.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't know why people call it Pete Ball. It's a very tried and true strategy that has always worked very well if you have the pieces to make it work. Pete didn't make it up. It's not unique to him. It's the same football that Pittsburgh models their game after. Same football Bill B liked to use. It's the absolute best football plan if you can pull it off.

Only reason people modify their game is due to personnel. Most decent coaches modify their plan to fit the personnel. It's not easy to find a RB that can do the job and stay healthy. It's hard to build a strong defense.

Every major dynasty did "Pete Ball." Pittsburgh. Frisco. Dallas. Even Mike Holmgren wanted to do Pete Ball which is why he built a strong O-line and had a strong run game. Only thing Mike Holmgren couldn't get done is the elite defense. New England's first three Brady Super Bowls were "Pete Ball." Strong defense, strong run game, and good enough QB.

I have never understood at all calling the best performing football strategy in NFL history "Pete Ball."

Every coach in the league wants to have a balanced run-pass offense and strong defense. Not all of them can pull it off. Pete Carroll hasn't been able to pull it off every year.

I know why you're using the term. I don't understand why fans that have been watching this game as long as many of us have see Pete's strategy has some unique idea he came up with. It isn't. It's the ultimate football strategy every coach tries to pull off with minor variations, but is extremely hard to get done because it's basically just a complete football team that can attack and defend against everything that can be done in football.

[trents]

I agree. Not a new strategy and one that has proven effective when, as you say, you have the right personnel to pull it off. I think we have gravitated to calling it Pete ball because he continued to insist on using the formula even when he didn't have the personnel to implement it well, instead of adapting the game plan to work better with the personnel he did have. Now, he seems to have the personnel to implement it successfully again.

[NorthHawk]

It occurred to me that the Hawks' recent metamorphosis coincides with the resurrection of Pete ball. Strong run game, stingy defense and avoiding turnovers.

This isn’t Peteball. This is based on McVays system that evolved from the Shanahan system.
Peteball is run between the Tackles, no pre-snap motion, limited use of RBs in the pass game, and limited route trees, so it’s
quite different than what we are seeing these days. Thank god.

[Hawktawk]

It occurred to me that the Hawks' recent metamorphosis coincides with the resurrection of Pete ball. Strong run game, stingy defense and avoiding turnovers.

North “This isn’t Peteball. This is based on McVays system that evolved from the Shanahan system.
Peteball is run between the Tackles, no pre-snap motion, limited use of RBs in the pass game, and limited route trees, so it’s
quite different than what we are seeing these days. Thank god.[/quote]

Peteball is a fan creation . Pete had some comments about his critics after last game , stale antique run game , doesn’t understand modern offensive concepts etc . He has taken it personal . As I suspected he returned to prove a point to his critics .

As Asea eloquently points out it’s an offensive philosophy that’s won many a championship . Bell cow RB , point guard qb, stiff D . The degree to which this offense may have changed in its look and operation is directly due to personell and no more so then the guy behind center who is in complete command pre snap and post snap .

Call it what you want , dodgeball , hair ball . Pete’s offenses have scored lots of points and won lots of games over his career .

[c_hawkbob]

Of course it's Pete Ball. All that means is it's his preferred style of football. Back in the 70's it was 'Don Shula football" and then "Steelers Football". It's all the same effectively; smothering defense and a solid ground game complimented by enough downfield passing to keep opposing defenses honest.

It's no less accurate than calling a WCO "Air Coryell" or "Bill Walsh football". If the shoe fits ...

[Hawktawk]

Of course it's Pete Ball. All that means is it's his preferred style of football. Back in the 70's it was 'Don Shula football" and then "Steelers Football". It's all the same effectively; smothering defense and a solid ground game complimented by enough downfield passing to keep opposing defenses honest.

It's no less accurate than calling a WCO "Air Coryell" or "Bill Walsh football". If the shoe fits ...

I doubt Pete cares what it’s called . He cared that he was being called an old fuddy duddy in the football sense and was in danger of losing a battle with his former qb as to who was to “ blame “ and who was sticking around and who was leaving .

So far he’s lapped the field, elevated his HOF status . 9 games to go is a lot but if the man gets this team into the postseason look out . They could win a Lombardi playing like the last 3 weeks

[RiverDog]

The first time I've heard a style of offense/defense associated with a coach was "Marty Ball", after Marty Schottenheimer, and it was during his time as coach of the KC Chiefs. It was a somewhat derogatory term as Schottenheimer was a relatively conservative coach that consistently got his teams into the playoffs but could never win the big one, sort of like what Pete's been over these past 8 years.

Edit: Actually, that's not quite true. I should have limited my remarks to say something like "____ Ball". "Ground Chuck" was a term used to describe Chuck Knox's philosophy, and an almost identical type of success, ie wins in the regular season, never wins the big one.

[NorthHawk]

Of course it's Pete Ball. All that means is it's his preferred style of football. Back in the 70's it was 'Don Shula football" and then "Steelers Football". It's all the same effectively; smothering defense and a solid ground game complimented by enough downfield passing to keep opposing defenses honest.

It's no less accurate than calling a WCO "Air Coryell" or "Bill Walsh football". If the shoe fits ...

So you think this is the same Offense we saw under Bevell and Schottenheimer? The same one that Pete demanded be used in 2020 after Schotty opened it up and allowed it to win the first 5 games when the Defense was on pace for
setting records of futility? We started to see a glimpse of it last year but it was still heavily influenced by Pete's preferred style.
Well, it's not even close to that Offense and hopefully the old dog has learned a new trick.

[Aseahawkfan]

The first time I've heard a style of offense/defense associated with a coach was "Marty Ball", after Marty Schottenheimer, and it was during his time as coach of the KC Chiefs. It was a somewhat derogatory term as Schottenheimer was a relatively conservative coach that consistently got his teams into the playoffs but could never win the big one, sort of like what Pete's been over these past 8 years.

Exactly why I don't consider it Pete Ball. It's derogatory. It's a presumption that Pete does things in a way that only he does and that no longer works and it's ineffective with all these modern "offensive wizards" upending the game. Sorry, that wasn't what Pete was doing. He was sticking to a tried and true football philosophy that has worked always, but isn't easy to pull off.

Fans do this all the time blaming players or coaches for becoming stale. It happened with Holmgren when he wasn't winning any more. Happened with Knox with Ground Chuck, though I think that was less derogatory. Some people believe Russell can only run a single type of offense. And the usual stuff when things aren't going well and a fan base thinks they should be in the Super Bowl every year and such.

I've become used to the attacks and criticisms after years of watching football, even if I don't agree with them. For me it's always about the talent unless you can truly see bad coaching. Pete is a good coach, but not always the best at attending to talent as sometimes he wants to fit square pegs into round holes because the square pegs look so damn good on someone else's team or he sees some aspect of athletic ability he thinks he can mold into something better sometimes overlooking good football players.

I have zero problem with the football strategies Pete adheres to. They will never be out of style. They will always work if you can find the players to make them work.

[mykc14]

My only issue with Peteball was when we had the highest paid QB in the league. Also PC went for it TWICE when we were in field goal range on Sunday- thats not something he's done in a very long time.

[RiverDog]

My only issue with Peteball was when we had the highest paid QB in the league. Also PC went for it TWICE when we were in field goal range on Sunday- thats not something he's done in a very long time.

I actually like most of Pete's punt/FG/go-for-it decisions. Some coaches have gotten sucked in by this current move towards analytics, which although it provides one with some good background information, is not team/situation specific enough to be relied on exclusively.

[Hawktawk]

Of course it's Pete Ball. All that means is it's his preferred style of football. Back in the 70's it was 'Don Shula football" and then "Steelers Football". It's all the same effectively; smothering defense and a solid ground game complimented by enough downfield passing to keep opposing defenses honest.

It's no less accurate than calling a WCO "Air Coryell" or "Bill Walsh football". If the shoe fits ...

So you think this is the same Offense we saw under Bevell and Schottenheimer? The same one that Pete demanded be used in 2020 after Schotty opened it up and allowed it to win the first 5 games when the Defense was on pace for
setting records of futility? We started to see a glimpse of it last year but it was still heavily influenced by Pete's preferred style.
Well, it's not even close to that Offense and hopefully the old dog has learned a new trick.[/quote]

If we’re relitigating 2020 Pete pulled in the reigns after a 3 pick outing by Russ that began a stretch of 11 games and 11 picks culminating in an 11-31 141 yard pick 6 in what may be the last postseason of his career . He’s doing what he wanted to here in Denver and averaging 59% with one of the worst qbr in the league . I guess now Hackett is to blame .
Pete vs Russ . We have a winner by KO.

[NorthHawk]

The problem with analytics is some things that might be important can't be reduced to numbers.
Things like momentum, emotion, or plays designed to set up a defender in a particular situation wouldn't be a factor.
So the human element in making the decisions will always be a big part of the success or failure of the punt/FG decisions.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="NorthHawk"]The problem with analytics is some things that might be important can't be reduced to numbers.
Things like momentum, emotion, or plays designed to set up a defender in a particular situation wouldn't be a factor.
So the human element in making the decisions will always be a big part of the success or failure of the punt/FG decisions.[/quote ]



If it works you’re a genius . If it doesn’t you’re a fool . If I have a quibble with Pete it’s these types of decisions he’s been inconsistent with . I agreed with both calls Sunday . I think back to Denver when we had 17 points and a 4th and 1 in Fg range and ran a sneak . Genos right foot slipped trying to take it off right guard . If not it’s easy pickup and we may well blow them out if we continue that drive . Good decision . Bad result . I remember Pete passing up mid 50 FGs twice in Genos first start in a game that was decided in overtime. Every kicker in the league has the leg to get it there , if kickers struggling give him a long one with less pressure . and when you can get a chance to score with a backup I take it both times .

I believe Pittsburgh drove for scores on both those punts . I think Dixon kicked one in the end zone . So he’s not perfect and situational football is a bad thing to be weak at . There was this play once ……. Looks like they are all doing pretty well now . Pete ball could win it all . This year . Aim low you hit your target every time

[c_hawkbob]

You want to be "inconsistent" (with those calls), the other choice is "predictable"
.

[I-5]

My understanding of Pete Ball is first and foremost, it's all about the ball...then it's run the ball, and stop the run. I think Waldron has shown Pete that his quick passing system is just as effective as a run, if not moreseo, so Pete is showing flexibility and trust in him.

He has always said it's about balance, not just run run run.

[Hawktawk]

You want to be "inconsistent" (with those calls), the other choice is "predictable"
.

Good point although going on 4th you usually line up so no surprise other than a fake punt . The one last year vs 9ers with Homer going to the house ! Brilliant ! Dixon taking off ? No chance .
Nobody’s right all the time .

[Aseahawkfan]

So you think this is the same Offense we saw under Bevell and Schottenheimer? The same one that Pete demanded be used in 2020 after Schotty opened it up and allowed it to win the first 5 games when the Defense was on pace for
setting records of futility? We started to see a glimpse of it last year but it was still heavily influenced by Pete's preferred style.
Well, it's not even close to that Offense and hopefully the old dog has learned a new trick.

If we’re relitigating 2020 Pete pulled in the reigns after a 3 pick outing by Russ that began a stretch of 11 games and 11 picks culminating in an 11-31 141 yard pick 6 in what may be the last postseason of his career . He’s doing what he wanted to here in Denver and averaging 59% with one of the worst qbr in the league . I guess now Hackett is to blame .
Pete vs Russ . We have a winner by KO.

We have nothing yet.

Pete and Russ won a Super Bowl and went to another together. Until Pete or Russ do the same, this isn't a change. We went 12-4 with Russ a few years ago. We're 5 and 3 right now.

The only way Russ and Pete KO the other is another Super Bowl. If we get to the playoffs and lose early again, who cares. We been doing that for years with Russ.

Right now we have what is known as youth and promise. But it has to pay off or it doesn't match what Russ and Pete did together.

[Hawktawk]

Excellent point although there appears to be an early leader in this debate . Yeah kinda like Brady it takes another championship to settle it .
I like Pete’s chances better thought . This year anyway .

[Aseahawkfan]

Excellent point although there appears to be an early leader in this debate . Yeah kinda like Brady it takes another championship to settle it .
I like Pete’s chances better thought . This year anyway .

Yep. As I see it, Denver has five years to win a Super Bowl. Denver traded to win a Super Bowl with Russ.

Pete has a few years to at least show he has turned the trade into a competitive playoff team that can at least get a little farther and maybe win a Super Bowl. Pete and John weren't trading for a guaranteed Super Bowl, but moving a player to another team that wanted to be moved for the highest amount of draft capital they could get. On that basis, I would say the trade is already successful and they've turned the draft capital into some quality players.

If we want a clear KO, then Denver has to fail to win a Super Bowl with Russ before he retires otherwise it will be more like a win-win trade. If Russ wins a Super Bowl and we're a playoff competitive team and possibly win one too, then it's more of a win-win trade. It really is possible for both sides to win this trade over the course of time.

Denver definitely has the harder path to success as anything less than a Super Bowl while Russ is in Denver is a loss for them.

[Hawktawk]

We’re a dark horse contender this year . Over the past 3 weeks they have played balanced explosive ball on both sides . Against quality teams too. We got a shot this year . We have 6 rooks starting including pancake and cross , freak , cobe Bryant , thriller and K9. Those are legend names with game to match .

I doubt they will get worse and we are the #3 seed right now , #9 power ranking , top 5 or better qb in every category . Dynamic skill people including a three tight end package and as dynamic a back as anyone . Defense suddenly very very good , disruptive . Kickers hitting kicks .

Listen I’ve been the most optimistic fan here , probably one of the most optimistic fans period and I didn’t expect this perfect storm .
We can win it all this year .

[Aseahawkfan]

We’re a dark horse contender this year . Over the past 3 weeks they have played balanced explosive ball on both sides . Against quality teams too. We got a shot this year . We have 6 rooks starting including pancake and cross , freak , cobe Bryant , thriller and K9. Those are legend names with game to match .

I doubt they will get worse and we are the #3 seed right now , #9 power ranking , top 5 or better qb in every category . Dynamic skill people including a three tight end package and as dynamic a back as anyone . Defense suddenly very very good , disruptive . Kickers hitting kicks .

Listen I’ve been the most optimistic fan here , probably one of the most optimistic fans period and I didn’t expect this perfect storm .
We can win it all this year .

Geno is the fourth best QBR and regular QB rating QB in the league. We have great skill players. Defense seems to be getting on track. NFC is weak. I have to admit to looking at the NFC, we could go all the way. We split in the division or beat Zona and the Rams twice and the 49ers at home, we could be the two seed.

Then hit the playoffs, win, go the Super Bowl, maybe KC or Buffalo knock the other off and come in injured or have a bad game, strange things could happen.

[RiverDog]

We’re a dark horse contender this year . Over the past 3 weeks they have played balanced explosive ball on both sides . Against quality teams too. We got a shot this year . We have 6 rooks starting including pancake and cross , freak , cobe Bryant , thriller and K9. Those are legend names with game to match .

I doubt they will get worse and we are the #3 seed right now , #9 power ranking , top 5 or better qb in every category . Dynamic skill people including a three tight end package and as dynamic a back as anyone . Defense suddenly very very good , disruptive . Kickers hitting kicks .

Listen I’ve been the most optimistic fan here , probably one of the most optimistic fans period and I didn’t expect this perfect storm .
We can win it all this year .

Geno is the fourth best QBR and regular QB rating QB in the league. We have great skill players. Defense seems to be getting on track. NFC is weak. I have to admit to looking at the NFC, we could go all the way. We split in the division or beat Zona and the Rams twice and the 49ers at home, we could be the two seed.

Then hit the playoffs, win, go the Super Bowl, maybe KC or Buffalo knock the other off and come in injured or have a bad game, strange things could happen.

You guys are getting WAY ahead of yourselves. Let's at least wait until Thanksgiving before we start talking about playoffs, let alone a SB run. A lot can happen between now and then, especially this season.

[Aseahawkfan]

You guys are getting WAY ahead of yourselves. Let's at least wait until Thanksgiving before we start talking about playoffs, let alone a SB run. A lot can happen between now and then, especially this season.

I'm mainly concerned with division games. Whether we go to the playoffs will depend on how we fare against the Rams. We're 5-3. We split with the Rams and beat Frisco at home at least, we end up 7 and 4 right there. Then we got the Chiefs as the main strong team we face. Then a lot of weak teams we should be able to beat.

[Old but Slow]

One or two significant injuries and everything can go down the tube. While the growth of the team has been startling, it still has not developed the kind of depth that is needed to maintain what they are doing now. So, I agree that we should wait a while before we start talking playoffs.

[RiverDog]

You guys are getting WAY ahead of yourselves. Let's at least wait until Thanksgiving before we start talking about playoffs, let alone a SB run. A lot can happen between now and then, especially this season.

I'm mainly concerned with division games. Whether we go to the playoffs will depend on how we fare against the Rams. We're 5-3. We split with the Rams and beat Frisco at home at least, we end up 7 and 4 right there. Then we got the Chiefs as the main strong team we face. Then a lot of weak teams we should be able to beat.

You're forgetting about the Bucs in Germany. And I wouldn't put the Jets in that category of weak teams. They put the wood to the Dolphins and beat the Packers by 3 scores on their home turf, something we haven't done even in our best years. Beating the Niners is going to be a huge challenge. In addition to getting McCaffery, they're getting a lot of players back from injuries.

And like our old wise man just said, one or two injuries here or there could derail everything.

[Hawktawk]

What about other teams injuries ? We already had a humongous injury , Penny and didn’t miss a beat . We’ve had top receivers banged up . The relative youth might help with that too . And McCaffrey ? You really mentioned him in the same post as injuries ? Only reason they got him is their qb sucks and defense is spotty too .
And as gawd are we that desperate Bruce Irvin said “ it’s got the look of a championship defense .” He would know .

As Asea says the conference is mostly down . Last 3 weeks were as good as anyone . Tampa and Brady are brutal , I worry about officiating in Munich . I’ve been very right and very wrong about that this year . The Jets suck , Wilson sucks , the Jets are a joke . I think talking about playoffs is entirely reasonable and talking about a championship contender isn’t outlandish .

We get another big test Sunday . Attempting to sweep a division opponent isn’t easy . It will be a Genos 12th start in Seattle and the second rematch . First was Saints . Last year Geno 10 points , 60% completion . This year 32, should have been mid 40’s, 3 TDs should have been 5.
Only other upcoming opponent is Rams . Geno 1 quarter 10 points , 141 passing yards , 22 rushing yards . 98 yard drive . So I’m curious how that will go .
Most of our bad pub came from the assumption Geno would suck after losing Russ . Dead wrong . Our D is why we aren’t 7-1.

So an injury to Geno might be the biggest blow . Although if Lock is truly “ nipping at Genos heels in practice “ maybe not .

We can go all the way .

[NorthHawk]

Injuries to backup players aren't a concern, but injuries to key players is what makes teams stumble.
We seem to be fairly deep at WR and the backups along the OL might be OK, but if we lose Walker after losing Penny then it will really hit hard.
On Defense if one of our CBs goes down now that Jones has been waived and released that could cause problems and the same along the DL and LB groups.
But that's the key with every team - how good is their depth? We will probably have to find out at some point with 9 games left, I just hope we don't have a rash of injuries at one position.

[RiverDog]

What about other teams injuries?

Of course. It's a huge unknown. Lightning can strike twice. The fact that Penny suffered a season ending injury doesn't make Walker immune to getting hurt.

No one is saying that we don't have a chance. We're in a very good position, better than a lot of teams in the conference. All I'm saying is that it's too early to start talking about playoffs and projecting our strength of schedule, especially this season.

As Asea says the conference is mostly down . Last 3 weeks were as good as anyone . Tampa and Brady are brutal , I worry about officiating in Munich . I’ve been very right and very wrong about that this year . The Jets suck , Wilson sucks , the Jets are a joke . I think talking about playoffs is entirely reasonable and talking about a championship contender isn’t outlandish.

The Jets and Wilson sucked for one game, last week vs. the Pats, and as badly as they played, they were still within a TD of beating them. They've been very solid in their other games, winning 4 in a row prior to losing to the Pats.

Different teams match up differently. A bad draw one week does not necessarily mean that you'll get those same mismatches the next.

We can go all the way .

Of course, we can. No one said that we can't. But I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch, especially in a season like this one.

[Hawktawk]

Most people said we couldn’t do it . Pundits . Fans . Sando had Geno #36 , only guy in the 5th category , super sucky . Unnamed GMs advising Sando.
We can do it . We can also not do it . But I’ve been a total optimist since March while everyone else was tearing their hair out at this looming disaster, bummed out about the certain dumpster fire . As for myself I’ve felt good for last 8 months and feeling better all the time . Not stopping now .

People forget our championship team dealt with huge injuries all along our O line and had some spotty games we pulled out like the win in St Lois with 6 first downs and 120 yards of offense as Browner defended a 4th down throw into the endzone as time expired . Down 21 zip to 0-8 Tampa . I was there .
I think we have a more reliable offense then that team . Not sure about this defense but last 3 it’s one of the best . The majority of the pundits are saying the same things as I am now . Welcome aboard the train . I’d still like Sandos explanation . Hawks can shock the sports world .

[I-5]

As Shelby Harris said in his presser yesterday, it's a week to week thing. If you look beyond the opponent in front of you, you'll get humbled really quick. I think we'll make the playoffs, but in reality we have no idea how many wins they may get. I just want to see them keep progressing, and make corrections when necessary. They're not going to go undefeated the rest of the year, that's for sure.

For me, the biggest game is vs the Niners. Both teams are different than when they met earlier, and both have greatly improved - Niners via the addition of CMC, and Seahawks via injury replacement and improving the D.

[Hawktawk]

As Shelby Harris said in his presser yesterday, it's a week to week thing. If you look beyond the opponent in front of you, you'll get humbled really quick. I think we'll make the playoffs, but in reality we have no idea how many wins they may get. I just want to see them keep progressing, and make corrections when necessary. They're not going to go undefeated the rest of the year, that's for sure.

For me, the biggest game is vs the Niners. Both teams are different than when they met earlier, and both have greatly improved - Niners via the addition of CMC, and Seahawks via injury replacement and improving the D.

I’ve heard that first 9er game was a moment of truth , a wake up call . It was a trap game off a huge win vs a pissed opponent that had to win . Everything that could go wrong did including Waldron losing his mind and allowing Dee Jay to throw on second and 5 on the 8. Muffed punt , missed tackles etc .they didn’t turn it around right away but the offense did as the least they have scored is 19 since then. Now the D is looking quite LOB ish . Irvin who still seems to have some game said it’s looking like a championship defense . KJ came out and said the same thing yesterday . Nobody listened when he said Geno was the best option . Maybe they should now. I need to see a few more games to be sure myself but certain things have been so solid recently , so many players making plays . I will stay with 10 wins WC as I have all along but it’s really got the feel of an 11 or 12 win team .

Geno named NFC offensive player of the month . The hits keep coming . I’m waiting to see if the chariot turns to a pumpkin just like everyone else but starting to think it won’t .

[c_hawkbob]

Yeah Geno named Offensive Player of the month, Tariq named Defensive rookie of the month and K-9 named Offensive rookie of the month ... hell of a month!

[Hawktawk]

Yeah Geno named Offensive Player of the month, Tariq named Defensive rookie of the month and K-9 named Offensive rookie of the month ... hell of a month!

Lightning in a bottle .
Twice .
With this roster built in 1 off-season we at least have a foundation for much future success . At the worst . Much more is possible right now . Pete for HOF.

[c_hawkbob]

This draft class was about a lot more than just those two, no less than 5 are returning 1st round quality play!

BTW, this is the first time ever one team got three NFL monthly awards in a single month.

[Hawktawk]

This draft class was about a lot more than just those two, no less than 5 are returning 1st round quality play!

BTW, this is the first time ever one team got three NFL monthly awards in a single month.

I was wondering . For all his greatness did Russ ever win POTM? It is a remarkable achievement . Now we gotta remember what the great Chuck Knox said” potential will get you beat “
Make it count hawks !

[c_hawkbob]

According to Pro Football Reference he's go 12 Player of the week awards and 1 player of the Month.

[Agent 86]

Yeah Geno named Offensive Player of the month, Tariq named Defensive rookie of the month and K-9 named Offensive rookie of the month ... hell of a month!

Holy crap! That is awesome some well deserved recognition. Well done Seahawks!

[Hawktawk]

According to Pro Football Reference he's go 12 Player of the week awards and 1 player of the Month.

Nice