OT - Mariners, wow?

[RiverDog]

The M's play Houston today and Thursday at 12:37am PT, in Houston. Game 3 will be in Seattle, time TBD. The games are being televised on TBS. It's a best of 5 series, the winner to take on the winner of the Yankees-Cleveland series in the ALCS.

It's sure nice to have a horse in this race.

[Stream Hawk]

So sad. So many problems to blow this one. Biggest question is what the hell is wrong with Robbie Ray? And next question is why would you pitch him there over lights out leftie, Swanson.

Worst loss in my Mariner memory.

[RiverDog]

So sad. So many problems to blow this one. Biggest question is what the hell is wrong with Robbie Ray? And next question is why would you pitch him there over lights out leftie, Swanson.

Worst loss in my Mariner memory.

Yeah, as great as that comeback victory against the Blue Jays was, this one was equal in its misery.

I was surprised to see them bring in Ray, too. I'm not sure why he was feeding him high fastballs. When it's lefty against lefty, you usually try to at least start them off on breaking pitches, try to get them to top the ball.

Oh, well. There's still tomorrow..er, Thursday.

[Aseahawkfan]

Damn sad loss. Let's hope the M's bounce back.

[RiverDog]

I think of this loss similarly to the Hawks loss in SB 49. It's a devasting way to lose a game, having a 4 run lead going into the 8th and a 2 run lead with two outs in the 9th. We'll see what this team is made of, if they fold and call it a season or if they can put the loss behind them and make a series out of it.

I mentioned it in another thread, but if the M's win this game, it means that there will be a Game 4 in Seattle and that the Seahawks game will be moved back from a 1:05 pm PT kickoff to 2:30pm to mitigate what is going to be a Trafficgeddon around the stadium area.

[trents]

"Houston, we don't have a problem". The M's have held their own against just about every team they've played this year except the Astros. The Astros may have the most balanced team in MLB and the last two games testify to that. The Mariners need to quit pitching to Yordan Alvarez and put him on base. He's been a wrecking ball this year to the M's. The Mariners have been fun to watch and are an improving team. Spending such big bucks on Robbie Ray was a mistake that may set them back for several years, however. They gave him bucks after he had one shining year. If you look at his career stats, he's a tad over .500, about what he did for us this year. M's need a couple more bats to be a really good team. Too many quick outs in the current batting order.

[RiverDog]

"Houston, we don't have a problem". The M's have held their own against just about every team they've played this year except the Astros. The Astros may have the most balanced team in MLB and the last two games testify to that. The Mariners need to quit pitching to Yordan Alvarez and put him on base. He's been a wrecking ball this year to the M's. The Mariners have been fun to watch and are an improving team. Spending such big bucks on Robbie Ray was a mistake that may set them back for several years, however. They gave him bucks after he had one shining year. If you look at his career stats, he's a tad over .500, about what he did for us this year. M's need a couple more bats to be a really good team. Too many quick outs in the current batting order.

They did walk Alvarez, moved a runner into scoring position to do so, and it backfired. IMO the Astros are the best team in MLB, have been for some time. No shame in losing to them.

Agreed about Robbie Ray. He's been a huge disappointment.

[trents]

They did walk Alvarez, moved a runner into scoring position to do so, and it backfired. IMO the Astros are the best team in MLB, have been for some time. No shame in losing to them.

But they didn't walk him when the game was on the line and he hit the go ahead homer. They should walk that guy every time unless the bases are loaded.

[RiverDog]

They did walk Alvarez, moved a runner into scoring position to do so, and it backfired. IMO the Astros are the best team in MLB, have been for some time. No shame in losing to them.

But they didn't walk him when the game was on the line and he hit the go ahead homer. They should walk that guy every time unless the bases are loaded.

Alvarez hit his home run in the 6th, so it's hard to argue that the game was on the line at that point. Walking him with a runner on first would have put the tying run in scoring position and the lead run on first. We'd be engaging in 20/20 hindsight if we were to argue that Servias should have walked him in that situation.

But I did agree with Servias walking him in the 8th even though it moved a key insurance run into scoring position. We knew then that Alvarez was hot. It wasn't that apparent in the 6th.

[mykc14]

Alvarez hit his home run in the 6th, so it's hard to argue that the game was on the line at that point. Walking him with a runner on first would have put the tying run in scoring position and the lead run on first. We'd be engaging in 20/20 hindsight if we were to argue that Servias should have walked him in that situation.

But I did agree with Servias walking him in the 8th even though it moved a key insurance run into scoring position. We knew then that Alvarez was hot. It wasn't that apparent in the 6th.

From what I read they were trying to pitch around him in the 6th, but he hit a really tough pitch that was 4 inches off of the plate. I was at work, watching on my phone so I couldn't tell how far outside it was, but obviously they learned their lesson. It's to the point that the Mariners can't let him beat them. Put him on base from the 5th inning on unless we are up and nobody is on. The Astro's are very good. Unfortunately it feels like the Mariners offensively are playing their best baseball. This loss was discouraging. We put our best out there and still have come up short... twice. We have a big gap to fill if we want to seriously compete for a World Series. The good news is we have good, young players coming back. Now we have to add a SERIOUS bat to the middle of the line-up. I'm not saying the series is over. Win Game 3, put the pressure on Houston in game 4 then who knows? A series never really starts until the home team loses!!!

[RiverDog]

Alvarez hit his home run in the 6th, so it's hard to argue that the game was on the line at that point. Walking him with a runner on first would have put the tying run in scoring position and the lead run on first. We'd be engaging in 20/20 hindsight if we were to argue that Servias should have walked him in that situation.

But I did agree with Servias walking him in the 8th even though it moved a key insurance run into scoring position. We knew then that Alvarez was hot. It wasn't that apparent in the 6th.

From what I read they were trying to pitch around him in the 6th, but he hit a really tough pitch that was 4 inches off of the plate. I was at work, watching on my phone so I couldn't tell how far outside it was, but obviously they learned their lesson. It's to the point that the Mariners can't let him beat them. Put him on base from the 5th inning on unless we are up and nobody is on. The Astro's are very good. Unfortunately it feels like the Mariners offensively are playing their best baseball. This loss was discouraging. We put our best out there and still have come up short... twice. We have a big gap to fill if we want to seriously compete for a World Series. The good news is we have good, young players coming back. Now we have to add a SERIOUS bat to the middle of the line-up. I'm not saying the series is over. Win Game 3, put the pressure on Houston in game 4 then who knows? A series never really starts until the home team loses!!!

Pitching around him is one thing. Intentionally walking him a completely different proposition.

My point is that going into the bottom of the 6th, we didn't know just how hot Alvarez was. Castillo was pitching well up until then and had gotten Alvarez out in his two previous trips, so there was every reason to believe that he could get him out again in the 6th. To argue otherwise would be to engage in 20/20 hindsight.

[mykc14]

My point is that going into the bottom of the 6th, we didn't know just how hot Alvarez was. Castillo was pitching well up until then and had gotten Alvarez out in his two previous trips, so there was every reason to believe that he could get him out again in the 6th. To argue otherwise would be to engage in 20/20 hindsight.

Oh, I agree 100%. You have your dude pitching- be very careful with him but don't walk him intentionally. I like the idea of pitching around him in that situation. But what I am saying is that at this point, from now on, you can't let him be the guy who beats you.

[trents]

Are you kidding? Alvarez has been hot all year. He is one of the top three hitters in the league and everyone knows it.

[mykc14]

Are you kidding? Alvarez has been hot all year. He is one of the top three hitters in the league and everyone knows it.

No doubt- I'd say he's the second best hitter after Judge, but I don't hate Castillo pitching to him in the sixth- especially if he is trying to pitch around him.

[RiverDog]

Are you kidding? Alvarez has been hot all year. He is one of the top three hitters in the league and everyone knows it.

No doubt- I'd say he's the second best hitter after Judge, but I don't hate Castillo pitching to him in the sixth- especially if he is trying to pitch around him.

This.

If you have an open base, then sure, I don't mind giving Alvarez 4 wide ones. But in that situation, ie two outs in the bottom of the 6th a runner on first and up by one, you don't move the tying run into scoring position and put the go ahead runner on base no matter who the hitter is. Now if he gets the count to 2-0 or 3-0, then it would make more sense to put him on vs. giving him a meat ball to hit.

[Hawktawk]

I have yet to watch a minute due to work etc . But I had a feeling after the 9th inning collapse in game 1 of the series that the fairy tale year is on life support . I caught the end of game 2 on the radio . Sounded like a better and luckier team won.


I saw the shocking end to game one compared to 49. That’s where I differ . This is a divisional series and that failure left Seattle 3 chances at redemption. The pick killed a dynasty in a one and done league , one of the darkest days in the annals of Seattle sports .

I’m happy for the mariners getting back to the postseason after 22 years and hopefully they get back . And they are not dead yet . So let’s see .

[Aseahawkfan]

Getting and winning in the playoffs is a learning experience. Houston been at it for years. Mariners have to catch up with them. Gives them something to work towards.

[trents]

Agreed. Astros are a very talented and a very confident, experienced team. They seem to always do the right things throughout every game and by the time you come to the end of the game in which the other team had been ahead, the Astros just seem to catch up and pass them every time. They have no weaknesses is the thing.

[RiverDog]

Getting and winning in the playoffs is a learning experience. Houston been at it for years. Mariners have to catch up with them. Gives them something to work towards.

Agreed. Astros are a very talented and a very confident, experienced team. They seem to always do the right things throughout every game and by the time you come to the end of the game in which the other team had been ahead, the Astros just seem to catch up and pass them every time. They have no weaknesses is the thing.

I agree with both of these comments.

I haven't given up hope yet, but it's obvious that the Astros are heads and shoulders above the Mariners talent wise. There's no shame in losing to them. Hopefully, this is just the beginning. It would be great to see baseball in this region take off again like it did during the Lou Pinnella era.

[Stream Hawk]

Tuesday’s game absolutely rattled my soul. Therefore I intentionally missed most of yesterday‘s game and stayed in the Nooksack River doing some science (no cell service).

Tomorrow is huge. I want that win so bad. Just win that one and worry about Sunday next. Seattle will be so crazed on Sunday. Hell, even DK is a fan!

Yes it is clear Houston has a more stacked team. It is also clear Robbie Ray was a complete disappointment. I don’t think he will set us back for years, but I would not mind ditching him over the off-season. Cianara to Winker Time to spend big on some superstars to complement Julio. One or two big bats. Bring back Diaz as closer. Bring up Hancock. LFGM’s!

[Aseahawkfan]

Robbie was a disappointment. Luis has been good. Be nice to see Robbie get his stuff back.

[trents]

The MLB game has changed so much from when I was growing up. It seems like most MLB teams have pretty good starting pitching at least and it's very difficult to string hits together so as to push runners across the plate. Teams have become more and more dependent on homeruns in order to score and almost all batters are sacrificing average on the altar of "big taters" as Dizzy Dean use to call the long ball. Very few teams have more than one .300 hitter in their lineup. Most teams have starting lineups that are populated by a lot of hitters with sub .230 batting averages. This is the result of pitching velocities that keep going up over time, making it harder and harder to barrel up he ball consistently and string together hits. But this extra pitching velocity plays into the current emphasis on the long ball. What comes in hard will go out hard if you can barrel it up with a good launch angle. Physics.

What I'm saying is pitching is dominating the game and I believe some changes need to be made to give something back to the hitters. Move the pitcher's mound back 12" inches or something like that.

[RiverDog]

The MLB game has changed so much from when I was growing up. It seems like most MLB teams have pretty good starting pitching at least and it's very difficult to string hits together so as to push runners across the plate. Teams have become more and more dependent on homeruns in order to score and almost all batters are sacrificing average on the altar of "big taters" as Dizzy Dean use to call the long ball. Very few teams have more than one .300 hitter in their lineup. Most teams have starting lineups that are populated by a lot of hitters with sub .230 batting averages. This is the result of pitching velocities that keep going up over time, making it harder and harder to barrel up he ball consistently and string together hits. But this extra pitching velocity plays into the current emphasis on the long ball. What comes in hard will go out hard if you can barrel it up with a good launch angle. Physics.

What I'm saying is pitching is dominating the game and I believe some changes need to be made to give something back to the hitters. Move the pitcher's mound back 12" inches or something like that.

Boy, I'll say it's changed. When I was grown up, pitchers like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, and Juan Marichal would commonly pitch 20 complete games a year. This season, the leader in all baseball pitched 6 complete games. If you hit below .250, you were in danger of being sent down to the minors let alone losing your spot in the starting lineup. The long ball is still there, as witnessed by Aaron Judge's 62 homers, and scoring seems to be about the same.

I don't think any changes in the game are necessary. More hitting is going to lead to longer games, and I think we can all agree that games, if anything, are too long. Some have suggested outlawing the shift, which I think is unnecessary as doing so would extend the length of the games. The ghost runner in extra innings is complete nonsense.

I do think that they can take a look at the equipment aspect a little closer. Are today's baseballs wound the same as those that Mickey Mantle used to hit 500+ feet? Do bats have the same amount of resistance as those used by Ted Williams? That might address some of the long balls that you referred to.

[Aseahawkfan]

Man, this game is going to drain both teams pitching. Crazy.

[RiverDog]

Longest game I've ever watched, and I've watched a lot of them.

[c_hawkbob]

Only game I've watched in over a decade. Now I remember why.

[obiken]

Only game I've watched in over a decade. Now I remember why.

Tough beat Bob but their bullpen has always been better than ours. This one could have gone either way. We just need to get more hitters that can hit for 250 not 202! This series was probably over after they came back from 7-3 in the first game.

[Stream Hawk]

So sad to see it end. But this series was screwed since Yordan’s walkoff. And zero f’n runs scored in 18 innings- at first home playoff game in 21 years?

Regardless. Helluva run. Time to open the wallets for Judge, Bogarts, & Diaz in the offseason. This should be just the beginning.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, the walk off homer in the opener was a killer, twice blowing a 4 run lead and a 2 run lead with 2 out in the 9th.

I didn't watch the entire game yesterday (did anybody?), but it was the longest game I've ever watched in my life, and I've watched a lot of them. At least this season re-kindled my interest in the sport.

[Hawktawk]

I was keeping track on my phone up on our property at potholes . When it got to extra innings we went to the bar and set through the 15th and I just had a feeling I was wasting my time so we left . Crazy weird game . Reminded me of why I haven’t been watching it . Oh well better luck next time Ms!

[trents]

Lots to cheer about this year and be proud of. Astros just don't have any weaknesses.

We just need a couple of good bats to replace some of those .200 hitters in the lineup for next year. Mariners get off to slow starts every year it seems because of too many dead spots in the batting lineup. And I'm not sure Flexen and Sewald need to remain on the pitching roster. They had a couple of great years but seemed to fade this year. But that seems to be how it is with relief pitchers.

[mykc14]

Obviously the pitching for both teams was great, but I think the 1-0 score over 18 innings speaks to how hard it is to hit at T-Mobile in a day game, especially this late in the year. There has been talk of closing the roof in a day game like this, but that clearly defeats the purpose. Personally, I don't mind it because it's the same for both teams, but if you have 2 teams with good pitching it certainly can make for a boring game.

[RiverDog]

Obviously the pitching for both teams was great, but I think the 1-0 score over 18 innings speaks to how hard it is to hit at T-Mobile in a day game, especially this late in the year. There has been talk of closing the roof in a day game like this, but that clearly defeats the purpose. Personally, I don't mind it because it's the same for both teams, but if you have 2 teams with good pitching it certainly can make for a boring game.

It was a warm, relatively dry day in Seattle, so it should have been ideal for hitters as any golfer will tell you that the ball travels further when it's warm and the RH is relatively low. It's on those cool, damp days that closing the roof might help the hitters. Closing the roof on a sunny day might actually have an adverse effect on hitters as it would cool off the air, raise the rh, and cause the ball not to travel as far.

[mykc14]

It was a warm, relatively dry day in Seattle, so it should have been ideal for hitters as any golfer will tell you that the ball travels further when it's warm and the RH is relatively low. It's on those cool, damp days that closing the roof might help the hitters. Closing the roof on a sunny day might actually have an adverse effect on hitters as it would cool off the air, raise the rh, and cause the ball not to travel as far.

The issue I'm speaking to isn't the flight of the ball due to the air, but rather the shadows. It's been an issue since the stadium was built, and actually they started with trying to mess with the background of the behind the pitchers in center field the "batter's eye." They finally settled on Black a number of years ago. What they haven't been able to fix is the issues with the shadows. Jerry Dipoto was asked about the issue earlier this year and said they are aware of the issue but there's not much they can do about it. He was further asked if it was so bad that they would consider closing the roof at times when the shadows were their worst and he basically said there is no way that is going to happen.

[Old but Slow]

The team is looking better than it has in years, and they seem to be making smart moves. The question is about what upgrades they can make. The pitching looks solid both with starters and relievers. They have a potential superstar, are good at catcher, first base, and shortstop. There is competition in the outfield corners and must be hoping that they get some more offensive production from them.

They need more at 2d base, 3d base and DH. Second base was decent defensively, but offensively poor. Third and DH provide power, which is great, but there is not much youth there.

The most promising minor league prospect is a catcher, and looks like something special. He may be able to play outfield as he is unusually fast for a backstop. There are a couple more pitchers that may be ready to go to the big club. None of the players who get make the roster from the minors are infielders, so a trade or two seems inevitable.

Finally, in my humble opinion, they have stars at GM and manager.

[RiverDog]

It was a warm, relatively dry day in Seattle, so it should have been ideal for hitters as any golfer will tell you that the ball travels further when it's warm and the RH is relatively low. It's on those cool, damp days that closing the roof might help the hitters. Closing the roof on a sunny day might actually have an adverse effect on hitters as it would cool off the air, raise the rh, and cause the ball not to travel as far.

The issue I'm speaking to isn't the flight of the ball due to the air, but rather the shadows. It's been an issue since the stadium was built, and actually they started with trying to mess with the background of the behind the pitchers in center field the "batter's eye." They finally settled on Black a number of years ago. What they haven't been able to fix is the issues with the shadows. Jerry Dipoto was asked about the issue earlier this year and said they are aware of the issue but there's not much they can do about it. He was further asked if it was so bad that they would consider closing the roof at times when the shadows were their worst and he basically said there is no way that is going to happen.

Yeah, I remember the batter's eye thing. They tried growing some trees out there one season then settled on some high tech honeycomb structure that cost more than my house at the time they put it in. However, for the playoff game on Saturday, the pitchers were completely in the shadows being that it's so late in the fall and the sun is so low on the horizon, so I don't think it was an issue for the hitters, or at least I never heard any of them complaining.

[mykc14]

Yeah, I remember the batter's eye thing. They tried growing some trees out there one season then settled on some high tech honeycomb structure that cost more than my house at the time they put it in. However, for the playoff game on Saturday, the pitchers were completely in the shadows being that it's so late in the fall and the sun is so low on the horizon, so I don't think it was an issue for the hitters, or at least I never heard any of them complaining.

I know it's something Jerry Dipoto has talked about and the interview I'm referring to was late September sometime so it was still an issue late in the season. During the game the pitchers were still in the sun at least through the 5th inning but that still leaves 13 innings they were not in the sun. The issue wasn't just when the pitchers were in the sun either. Although it was better when both the pitchers and hitters were in the shadow. At any rate it doesn't much matter all I know is it is something that the GM has spoken to, understands it's an issue (at least sometimes, not necessarily during this game), but has said they aren't going to change anything so it's a moot point.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, I remember the batter's eye thing. They tried growing some trees out there one season then settled on some high tech honeycomb structure that cost more than my house at the time they put it in. However, for the playoff game on Saturday, the pitchers were completely in the shadows being that it's so late in the fall and the sun is so low on the horizon, so I don't think it was an issue for the hitters, or at least I never heard any of them complaining.

I know it's something Jerry Dipoto has talked about and the interview I'm referring to was late September sometime so it was still an issue late in the season. During the game the pitchers were still in the sun at least through the 5th inning but that still leaves 13 innings they were not in the sun. The issue wasn't just when the pitchers were in the sun either. Although it was better when both the pitchers and hitters were in the shadow. At any rate it doesn't much matter all I know is it is something that the GM has spoken to, understands it's an issue (at least sometimes, not necessarily during this game), but has said they aren't going to change anything so it's a moot point.

Interesting. I hadn't heard about the controversy.

Glare and shadows have been an issue in baseball for as long as they've been playing the game. Sometimes the complaints are legitimate, sometimes not. But both teams have to play under the same conditions, so to me, it's a no never mind. If I were the M's GM, I'd put all the complaints into File 13.

[trents]

I wish there was a good free fan forum like HawShack.com for Mariner and Trailblazers fans. Most stuff is subscription-based these days.

[trents]

RiverDog,

Thanks.

I tried to reply to your PM but I can't get the PM tool to send. I tried it both in Firefox and Chrome. Shows up in the Outbox but not in the Send folder and always takes me back to the new PM screen.

I really like Hawkshack.com. It has a family feel. We squabble with each other sometimes but make up.