Pete not changing with the game

[trents]

I thought this was a concise and accurate summary of what frustrates many of us about Pete's coaching approach:

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2022/ ... ce=twitter

[Hawktawk]

I read that a few days ago and there are some truths . But I laugh when the guy says Pete’s stuck in 1984 . Last I checked Pete won a natty and a super bowl long after 1984 and had the second most wins in the decade . This year is easy . It’s the run game has been inconsistent and other than a few heroics in the red zone the D is non existent . You can’t play your game without your players but what’s the alternative ? Blitz every play and go empty with 4 wide ? We just gotta get better at what we’re doing .

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't buy it. Every coach looks great when they have talent. They look bad when they don't. Talent is the number one determinant of success and more important than system. I'm not saying coaching or scheme have no effect, but football is won or lost in the draft. The NFL knows this is and that is why they set up the draft, free agency, and salary cap system as they did. And why you see in basketball and baseball owners buying championships with rare exception by simply buying the best talent. If coaching and scheme were the most important factors, owners would hire the best coach and automatically win the Super Bowl every year.

Pete's system works fine. So does McVay's. So does Bill B's system. And Andy Reid's. And Holmgren's. It all works as long as they have great talent to make the system work.

Pete and John have failed to draft well. That is why the team is failing. Not because of bad coordinators or bad coaching, but because the Seahawks just don't have the talent to compete for a championship. They could have Vince Lombardi or Don Shula in their prime and they couldn't get this talent to win a Super Bowl. Every great coach from Bill Walsh to Bill Parcells to Chuck Knoll won because they had better talent than their opponents.

We won't have competitive talent for a few years at least. Pete and John have truly failed along the defensive line in finding good pass rushers and DEs/DTs that can hold against the run and get penetration.

So if Pete and John are serious about turning this around, they need to get back to the relentless talent sifting and good drafting of their early years. If they keep drafting average to below average talent on the defensive line, they aren't going to improve on defense any time soon. One common denominator across every generation of football I've ever seen across my fourty plus years of watching football is you will not have a great defense until you have a good to great defensive line. That is where the defense starts. A good D-line is even more important to a great defense than a good O-line is to a great offense.

[trents]

I don't buy it. Every coach looks great when they have talent. They look bad when they don't. Talent is the number one determinant of success and more important than system. I'm not saying coaching or scheme have no effect, but football is won or lost in the draft. The NFL knows this is and that is why they set up the draft, free agency, and salary cap system as they did. And why you see in basketball and baseball owners buying championships with rare exception by simply buying the best talent. If coaching and scheme were the most important factors, owners would hire the best coach and automatically win the Super Bowl every year.

Pete's system works fine. So does McVay's. So does Bill B's system. And Andy Reid's. And Holmgren's. It all works as long as they have great talent to make the system work.

Pete and John have failed to draft well. That is why the team is failing. Not because of bad coordinators or bad coaching, but because the Seahawks just don't have the talent to compete for a championship. They could have Vince Lombardi or Don Shula in their prime and they couldn't get this talent to win a Super Bowl. Every great coach from Bill Walsh to Bill Parcells to Chuck Knoll won because they had better talent than their opponents.

We won't have competitive talent for a few years at least. Pete and John have truly failed along the defensive line in finding good pass rushers and DEs/DTs that can hold against the run and get penetration.

So if Pete and John are serious about turning this around, they need to get back to the relentless talent sifting and good drafting of their early years. If they keep drafting average to below average talent on the defensive line, they aren't going to improve on defense any time soon. One common denominator across every generation of football I've ever seen across my fourty plus years of watching football is you will not have a great defense until you have a good to great defensive line. That is where the defense starts. A good D-line is even more important to a great defense than a good O-line is to a great offense.

There is certainly a large element of truth to what you say but it is also true that your drafting needs to recognize league trends on offense and defense. For example, If you draft big, slow linebackers and linemen in order to counteract other teams' running game, that isn't smart when the other teams are all emphasizing the passing game. If nothing else, Pete and John are making the mistake of trying to run schemes that they don't have the right personnel for. You have to adjust strategies to personnel and talent realities regardless of what you would like to do.

[Aseahawkfan]

There is certainly a large element of truth to what you say but it is also true that your drafting needs to recognize league trends on offense and defense. For example, If you draft big, slow linebackers and linemen in order to counteract other teams' running game, that isn't smart when the other teams are all emphasizing the passing game. If nothing else, Pete and John are making the mistake of trying to run schemes that they don't have the right personnel for. You have to adjust strategies to personnel and talent realities regardless of what you would like to do.

Pete built an amazing secondary early on. So he understands you need a strong passing defense. What he hasn't been able to do is maintain the defensive talent to implement his philosophy. The secondary hasn't been good in years. We're just now seeing some hope that will change. The other part of a great pass defense is a great pass rush. We all watched a great pass rush tear apart the nearly undefeated Patriots with Randy Moss and a great pass rush hammer us against Frisco. We don't have a great pass rush right now. A great D-line does two things: moves the QB accelerating pass plays leading to turnovers from your good secondary and forces opponents to be one dimension by winning at the LoS and shutting down the run. We haven't been able to do this for some time because our D-line is bad. To me that D-line has to be good because a good D-line is needed for both run defense and pass defense. Stuffing the run and rushing the passer are the two most important factors on defense and if you're not good at either along the D-line, your defense is going to have a real hard time.

Pete's philosophy does not work without a good D-line.

That would probably be my biggest knock on Pete and John. Is Pete has a specific philosophy, yet he doesn't have the personnel to execute it well and has failed multiple years to acquire that personnel. If you know you want to play great defense, run the ball, and throw to score, then you have to be strong up front on defense or that just won't happen. No one should know that better than Carroll. Yet John and Pete have not done a great job drafting or fixing that need in free agency. It's been hurting us for years.

[trents]

That would probably be my biggest knock on Pete and John. Is Pete has a specific philosophy, yet he doesn't have the personnel to execute it well and has failed multiple years to acquire that personnel. If you know you want to play great defense, run the ball, and throw to score, then you have to be strong up front on defense or that just won't happen. No one should know that better than Carroll. Yet John and Pete have not done a great job drafting or fixing that need in free agency. It's been hurting us for years.

They either need to draft better or change philosophy to better match what they have to work with. Pete and John have chronically done neither. They are stuck in past glory.

[mykc14]

I don't buy it. Every coach looks great when they have talent. They look bad when they don't. Talent is the number one determinant of success and more important than system.

I agree, but Pete is the one who controls the talent. Pete is the one who paid for a Ferrari at QB but has an offensive philosophy suited for a Corolla.

[Aseahawkfan]

They either need to draft better or change philosophy to better match what they have to work with. Pete and John have chronically done neither. They are stuck in past glory.

They seem to have cut the cord on the glory years with the trade of Russell Wilson and the release of Bobby Wagner and gone into full "Win Forever 2.0." I'm willing to give Pete and John a few years to see if Win Forever 2.0 can work as well or nearly as well as Win Forever 1.0. Let's see where we are in 2024. If we're still doing terrible, I am somewhat sure ownership will be looking to move on from Pete and John.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree, but Pete is the one who controls the talent. Pete is the one who paid for a Ferrari at QB but has an offensive philosophy suited for a Corolla.

Haha. I think his offensive philosophy is more suited for a mack truck, but he hasn't been able to find a mack truck since Marshawn Lynch retired. The Ferrari at QB was a bonus. But if Pete can find his mack truck RB again and rebuild the defense, he can win with Geno Smith level of play. That's going to take some time.

[Hawktawk]

We have good enough backs by far. And Im excited about our corners. We have problems on both interior lines. It almost always gets better. We scored a 50 burger and Penny rushed for 175 vs Detroit. If we cant score on Detroit its really all over. And I dont think Pete is getting another year without this squad showing serious improvement.Its the last hurrah for this regime if we wind up bottom feeders.

[RiverDog]

It's a good article and aligns with my opinion of Pete's philosophy, that it's outdated. The only thing that I didn't agree with was the last paragraph that talked about his leaving points on the board by punting. I haven't seen any particular decision this season where Pete opted to punt vs. kicking a FG that I had a big disagreement with.

[RiverDog]

I agree, but Pete is the one who controls the talent. Pete is the one who paid for a Ferrari at QB but has an offensive philosophy suited for a Corolla.

Haha. I think his offensive philosophy is more suited for a mack truck, but he hasn't been able to find a mack truck since Marshawn Lynch retired. The Ferrari at QB was a bonus. But if Pete can find his mack truck RB again and rebuild the defense, he can win with Geno Smith level of play. That's going to take some time.

Agreed. In order for Pete Ball to work, he needs a top 5 or at least a top 10 defense, a quarterback that runs the offense like a point guard, and a rock'em, sock'em running back that can break tackles and make lots of YAC. Geno might fit that description, but without the top 5 defense and a strong running back/running game to rely on, he can't win games with his arm.

[Hawktawk]

Run game is coming . Hopefully you see the stampede Sunday . As I said Walker went the wrong way twice on handoffs Sunday snuffing his own run attempts and with the guys physical tools 2 missed touches might have meant quite a bit . Or give ‘em to Penny . Unless he’s gassed I don’t get all the rotating . We have one guy who can house it every play . I like they analytics
Our biggest problem is our interior line play and interior defense in general . We do have a point guard at qb who also was the 4th leading passing yards last Sunday , 10th ranked in total QBR, 7 th in quarterback rating , # 1 in completion % at 77% by 5% over Matt Stafford. He’s not been the issues . Any decent team wins a lot with him . But I think we are close everywhere except the defense and who knows about that . We aren’t good enough to wait around till midsession to begin slowing people down. .

[RiverDog]

Run game is coming . Hopefully you see the stampede Sunday . As I said Walker went the wrong way twice on handoffs Sunday snuffing his own run attempts and with the guys physical tools 2 missed touches might have meant quite a bit . Or give ‘em to Penny . Unless he’s gassed I don’t get all the rotating . We have one guy who can house it every play . I like they analytics

Our biggest problem is our interior line play and interior defense in general . We do have a point guard at qb who also was the 4th leading passing yards last Sunday , 10th ranked in total QBR, 7 th in quarterback rating , # 1 in completion % at 77% by 5% over Matt Stafford. He’s not been the issues . Any decent team wins a lot with him . But I think we are close everywhere except the defense and who knows about that . We aren’t good enough to wait around till midsession to begin slowing people down. .

Although we should run the ball better this Sunday as Detroit's defense is worse than ours, I'm not holding my breath. The reason why we're doing all the rotating should be obvious: The fewer touches Penny gets, the less likely he is to get injured. Besides, both Dallas and Homer are better third down options due to their superior blocking and pass catching ability. Penny is not a 3 down back.

The problem Sunday will be keeping the Lions offense in check. If we can hold them to under 25 points, I think that we have a good chance of winning. No team has been able to do that this year, however, they are missing their top RB and their play making WR is hampered somewhat, so who knows.

I don't understand why you get so defensive about Geno and start spitting out a bunch of meaningless stats whenever anyone mentions his name. Did I say that he was the problem? No. I said that he can't win the game with his arm. He's not a starting quality quarterback and as such, he needs a strong supporting cast, ie a top 10 defense and running game, the two biggest root causes of our failures, if we are to be successful.

[Hawktawk]

Penny had the lions share of the carries over 6 games where he averaged 6.7 ypc with no injury problems last year . He’s probably had 2/3rds of the carries this year although I’d have to check . So no injury . And why you keep repeating he’s not a 3 down back? It’s not true . He’s a fine receiver and as a matter of fact was robbed of a big gain on a screen by a really questionable hold call Sunday . His major injury he was 15 yards downfield on a pass play. He blocks fine in the pass game . Was this a college scouting report you’re basing this opinion on ? I saw him bend an edge rusher over backwards vs Az last year

Penny is a bell cow . Unless he is absolutely getting stoned (9ers ) he’s getting 90% of the carries, at least until Walker learns the side to go to take a handoff . Not sure why he wasn’t labeled a bust since he got a hernia and missed his very first pro game

He may have the same type of home run potential as Penny and his slashing style is really the perfect change up . Homer is out which hurts special teams . But too many backs playing in the same game is as bad as not enough .

[NorthHawk]

The problem with Pete's philosophy is it's Defense dependent. Meaning the Defense has to have an extreme amount of talent that matches the scheme they want to run.
without it, it becomes only a good Defense and that won't get you to a Championship with a middling talent, conservative Offense in todays NFL. With Pete's philosophy
the balance of when the Defense has a bad game the Offense can make up for it isn't there. With Lynch and Wilson, it was almost there but it was the Defense that
determined the outcome of games.

Getting the extreme talent on any team let alone on Defense takes a lot of things to fall into place, some of which are the scouts have to find the players, Pete/JS have to
be clear to them what they are looking for, and they have to be there in the draft (which depends on other teams not valuing them as highly as us). There's some luck
that needs to happen for any team to accumulate the players they need and we seem to have run out of that (along with bad selections) in the draft since about 2014 or so.

[Hawktawk]

Shelby Harris made a couple plays vs Denver and then missed 2 between injury and personal reasons . Maybe he will help . I think there is some good young secondary players on this team . Some promising edge guys . They just need to grow up quick . As far as Pete being unable to win without a stifling defense we missed the postseason 2 of the last 10 years in spite of the LOB completely disintegrated by 2017 . That might have been Russels finest hour , no defense, no running backs left , led the team in rushing , accounted for all but 1 TD rushing or passing . In the end Russ was not great enough to take a team with that many problems to the postseason . Almost nobody could

Last year Pete’s horrible defense lost games giving up 17, 15, 13( Geno vs Saints 2 missed FGs ). They gave up 16 in the last game vs AZ but got tagged for 30 due to a int return to the 1 foot line . On a blown hot read for a strip 6. We went 0-5 in 3 point games after going 7-1 the year before .

Last years d was far superior at least by seasons end . We’re exactly where we were a year ago . 1-2. And at least we got 3 points in the second half and kept it a game instead of getting blown out 31-17 by Kirk cousins and shut down and out the entire second half .

Our offense is close . Our defense I don’t know . Let’s find out. If we get smoked Sunday I’ll fall on my sword and accept being wrong about my expectations for the team . Hopefully that won’t be necessary .

[Aseahawkfan]

The problem with Pete's philosophy is it's Defense dependent. Meaning the Defense has to have an extreme amount of talent that matches the scheme they want to run.
without it, it becomes only a good Defense and that won't get you to a Championship with a middling talent, conservative Offense in todays NFL. With Pete's philosophy
the balance of when the Defense has a bad game the Offense can make up for it isn't there. With Lynch and Wilson, it was almost there but it was the Defense that
determined the outcome of games.

Getting the extreme talent on any team let alone on Defense takes a lot of things to fall into place, some of which are the scouts have to find the players, Pete/JS have to
be clear to them what they are looking for, and they have to be there in the draft (which depends on other teams not valuing them as highly as us). There's some luck
that needs to happen for any team to accumulate the players they need and we seem to have run out of that (along with bad selections) in the draft since about 2014 or so.

This is completely false. I have no idea why people post unrealistic viewpoints like this.

In the NFL, you need talent no matter what scheme you're running. There is no team that somehow overcomes bad defenses consistently, none whatsoever. Pete's scheme needs no more talent than any other scheme.

We lack talent. Period. End of story. Doesn't matter what scheme we run right now, the talent is inferior.

[Aseahawkfan]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/superbowl/history/winners

Super Bowl winners of recent years indicate improvements on defense is what brought victory.

In 2019 supposed dinosaur coach Bill B crushed Wunderkind coach Sean McVay in the Super Bowl 13-3.

Tampa Bay crushed Patrick Mahomes with better defensive play.

Pete's formula is just fine, absolutely a viable NFL team building strategy that can and has been more successful than the pass happy strategies of other teams over the past 12 years. You want to win Super Bowls, you better be able to play good defense.

Problem is Pete and John have not drafted well in recent years and have not acquired quality talent. Our most talented player was Russell Wilson and the receivers. We had and still have tons of holes. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Pete Ball and everything to do with bad drafting, bad trades, and bad talent acquisition. I can't remember the last guy we acquired that went on to bigger and better things after leaving Seattle.

Until that is fixed, it doesn't matter what scheme or strategy we use as it won't fix a damn thing. The NFL is all about talent staying healthy and performing well at the right time. Scheme is nowhere near the most relevant factor in winning. Having a pass happy offense is in no way a predictor of success. You may personally enjoy watching this type of offense, but nothing in Super Bowl or NFL history indicates this is any better strategy in the modern day than Pete's strategy.

[Hawktawk]

I agree 100% with this . It’s a winning formula but whatever the scheme you need horses . I think we have the talent at skill positions to play Pete ball plus just fine . It’s the defense that truly powered our championship runs and right now we don’t have that . Almost nobody ever did though in history . I like the potential in the secondary but we have nothing to compare to the D line rotation or linebackers at this point .

[Aseahawkfan]

It's really bad when a guy who knows defense about as well as anyone in the NFL can't get the defense turned around. Pete really has to look in the mirror, assess what he needs on defense, and use that knowledge to acquire the needed players if he wants to last here for a second rebuild.

[Stream Hawk]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/superbowl/history/winners

Super Bowl winners of recent years indicate improvements on defense is what brought victory.

In 2019 supposed dinosaur coach Bill B crushed Wunderkind coach Sean McVay in the Super Bowl 13-3.

Tampa Bay crushed Patrick Mahomes with better defensive play.

Pete's formula is just fine, absolutely a viable NFL team building strategy that can and has been more successful than the pass happy strategies of other teams over the past 12 years. You want to win Super Bowls, you better be able to play good defense.

Problem is Pete and John have not drafted well in recent years and have not acquired quality talent. Our most talented player was Russell Wilson and the receivers. We had and still have tons of holes. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Pete Ball and everything to do with bad drafting, bad trades, and bad talent acquisition. I can't remember the last guy we acquired that went on to bigger and better things after leaving Seattle.

Until that is fixed, it doesn't matter what scheme or strategy we use as it won't fix a damn thing. The NFL is all about talent staying healthy and performing well at the right time. Scheme is nowhere near the most relevant factor in winning. Having a pass happy offense is in no way a predictor of success. You may personally enjoy watching this type of offense, but nothing in Super Bowl or NFL history indicates this is any better strategy in the modern day than Pete's strategy.

Totally agree with your thoughts here. I do think the defensive line drafting has been the greatest talent drop off. One can always wonder if Malik McDowell could have been a serious difference maker if the ATV accident hadn't occurred. Daryl Taylor has been a ghost this season, but he had some promise. I am hoping the Broncos revert to sucking again and we can use their pick on DLine. A couple more causes:

*The change to 3-4 is having an effect. Perhaps that scheme really highlights the lack of talent. Maybe things will normalize as rookies develop and the scheme is adopted better.
*The Jamal injury is killing us right now. We had no backup plan. I don't thnk that this can be fixed this year.

[Hawktawk]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/superbowl/history/winners

Super Bowl winners of recent years indicate improvements on defense is what brought victory.

In 2019 supposed dinosaur coach Bill B crushed Wunderkind coach Sean McVay in the Super Bowl 13-3.

Tampa Bay crushed Patrick Mahomes with better defensive play.

Pete's formula is just fine, absolutely a viable NFL team building strategy that can and has been more successful than the pass happy strategies of other teams over the past 12 years. You want to win Super Bowls, you better be able to play good defense.

Problem is Pete and John have not drafted well in recent years and have not acquired quality talent. Our most talented player was Russell Wilson and the receivers. We had and still have tons of holes. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Pete Ball and everything to do with bad drafting, bad trades, and bad talent acquisition. I can't remember the last guy we acquired that went on to bigger and better things after leaving Seattle.

Until that is fixed, it doesn't matter what scheme or strategy we use as it won't fix a damn thing. The NFL is all about talent staying healthy and performing well at the right time. Scheme is nowhere near the most relevant factor in winning. Having a pass happy offense is in no way a predictor of success. You may personally enjoy watching this type of offense, but nothing in Super Bowl or NFL history indicates this is any better strategy in the modern day than Pete's strategy.

Offense sells tickets . Defense wins championships . People don’t remember all the picks Brady threw vs GB cause his defense bailed him out . Here’s a good example . 2006 Colts defense was terrible until a little hard hitting safety named Bob Sanders got healthy and shored up the back end . They got a Lombardi in spite of Manning in some situations . I think Adams going down really hurt but it’s bad counting on a China doll like him injury wise . Love him but no help on the ir.

You don’t have to have the best defense , just best at playoff time but you have to win enough to get there . Score more or give up less. Right now we got neither .