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by **trents** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:21 am

https://12thmanrising.com/2022/07/30/se ... ars%20past.

Given the fact that we are getting gashed every game by the opposing team's ground game, maybe we should go back to the 4-3.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:33 pm

It looks more like fundamentals causing the problems. Primarily missed tackles . And DBs getting flagged and no matter what position you play for Seattle you better play it clean . We’ve missed some chances to end drives on ticky tack calls . I expect to see improvement . It can’t get much worse . We can’t win any shootouts without a strong running game and I bet we are near dead last right now .

by **Aseahawkfan** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:58 pm

No, I don't believe so.

The problem at the moment is talent. We have been drafting poorly and losing players faster than they are being replaced. Thus we have a talent deficit along the lines. The D-line has been especially bad for some time, probably a few years.

You can't keep drafting poorly along the lines and expect the defense to be good. People wanted to blame Ken Norton Jr, but he was given poor talent to do the job. Now Clint Hurtt has been given the same inferior talent and is likely going to get the same inferior results.

In the NFL, talent is the number one determinant of team success. No amount of coaching or even extraordinary QB play will overcome bad talent spread across the team units. You may be able to sneak some wins in here and there, but your talent will ultimately determine the quality of your team over time. When you do not replace lost talent with even league average talent you end up like Seattle.

To me when I watch this team over the past four or five years, I see very inferior talent at a lot of positions, especially along the D and O-line. That's why I'm glad we picked up some nice tackles. I hope soon they will pick up some nice D-line guys in the next draft. And to do a 3-4,we probably need some bigger and more physical linebackers.

by **NorthHawk** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:16 pm

We seem to get gashed regularly on the edges. That's were Taylor and Mafe play. They are both young and although they may have played a little OLB, they have a lot to learn yet.
We saw a number of times the first two games where they took wrong angles and/or were out of position from a responsibility pov but that's the learning curve that players who
are making the adjustment from a 4-3 DE or College rush end/OLB to an NFL OLB. They are simply going to make a lot of mistakes and opposing OC's notice and take advantage of that.
It won't change until that's figured out, so expect a lot of run action on the edges.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:33 pm

NorthHawk wrote:We seem to get gashed regularly on the edges. That's were Taylor and Mafe play. They are both young and although they may have played a little OLB, they have a lot to learn yet.
We saw a number of times the first two games where they took wrong angles and/or were out of position from a responsibility pov but that's the learning curve that players who
are making the adjustment from a 4-3 DE or College rush end/OLB to an NFL OLB. They are simply going to make a lot of mistakes and opposing OC's notice and take advantage of that.
It won't change until that's figured out, so expect a lot of run action on the edges.

Taylor is in year 3. The young excuse no longer there for him. If he isn't showing his quality by now, he isn't going to do much the league.

Mafe gets to use the young excuse. For D-line guys, you don't get to use that excuse long. This game you either show you can play fairly quick or you probably aren't going to make it as much more than a backup.

by **NorthHawk** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:49 pm

I would agree with you if we still played a traditional 4-3 but Taylor is now an OLB.
He hasn't played OLB for at least 3 years and was specifically a rush end in college.
That's a big change of responsibilities and recognition. He may not be suited for a 3-4 Defense. We will see.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:07 pm

NorthHawk wrote:I would agree with you if we still played a traditional 4-3 but Taylor is now an OLB.
He hasn't played OLB for at least 3 years and was specifically a rush end in college.
That's a big change of responsibilities and recognition. He may not be suited for a 3-4 Defense. We will see.

Taylor may not be suited. But Hurtt talked him up during camp. So far he isn't showing much.

by **c_hawkbob** » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:55 pm

trents wrote:https://12thmanrising.com/2022/07/30/seahawks-defense-shocks-2022/#:~:text=Seattle%20for%20the%20first%20time,the%20Seahawks%20in%20years%20past.

Given the fact that we are getting gashed every game by the opposing team's ground game, maybe we should go back to the 4-3.

On the one hand I'm for it; we've got Mone, Big Al and Puna who is just plain out of position as a DE so it'd certainly help our run defense keeping two wide bodies on the line ...

On the other hand I'm willing to let the team settle in to the new scheme for a few games to see it it does help our pass rush as the article indicates is it's aim.

by **Hawktawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:43 am

Pete’s defenses usually improve as the year goes along . The exception I recall being 17 when we lost Sherm and Kam and Avril and went from first to worst . But I’ve seen promising signs , lots of near misses , missed tackles mean the man was in position , just missed . We are getting some pressure . I doubt there will be radical changes to the defense anytime soon . Offense is being worked on as we speak .

by **trents** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:21 am

Hawktawk wrote:Pete’s defenses usually improve as the year goes along . The exception I recall being 17 when we lost Sherm and Kam and Avril and went from first to worst . But I’ve seen promising signs , lots of near misses , missed tackles mean the man was in position , just missed . We are getting some pressure . I doubt there will be radical changes to the defense anytime soon . Offense is being worked on as we speak .

The defense definitely looks faster to me than it has in recent years with a number of younger guys flying around the field. The secondary has some promise but what worries me is the DL getting pushed around so bad on runs. They're not getting teams off the field and cheating their own offense of playing time.

by **NorthHawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:23 am

Not getting off the field quickly has been a problem for the Defense for the last few years.
You know your DL has a problem when 35 year old Al Woods is your best DL.

by **Hawktawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:03 am

Whatever he is age wise he’s a hell of a player . Woods balled . Interior of the line seems problematic on both sides of the ball . But we can’t stop the run and we can’t run . Not winning much with that formula .

by **I-5** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:01 pm

We ran well vs Denver in terms of ypc, so saying we can’t run is based on one game (week 2). Let’s get a bigger sample size.

On stopping the run, We look ok up the middle but getting gashed on the edges. We’re all seeing poor first tackles that turn into big runs. That needs to stop.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:34 pm

I-5 wrote:We ran well vs Denver in terms of ypc, so saying we can’t run is based on one game (week 2). Let’s get a bigger sample size.

On stopping the run, We look ok up the middle but getting gashed on the edges. We’re all seeing poor first tackles that turn into big runs. That needs to stop.

First guy is missing a lot . And yes we ran a little on Denver but we can’t count runs called back any more than passes not caught or wiped out by penalty . I’ll be watching this 9ers defense closely the next few weeks because it’s possibly the best in the league . They are my week 2 pick to win the division. They meet Denver next week at mile high so it will be kind of a fascinating yardstick for former guy and current guy and that 9er team .

by **RiverDog** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:23 am

I-5 wrote:We ran well vs Denver in terms of ypc, so saying we can’t run is based on one game (week 2). Let’s get a bigger sample size.

That ypc stat vs. Denver was built in the 1st half. They shut us down in the 2nd half, with the longest run from scrimmage other than Geno's scrambling being a 4 yard run by Penny.

I-5 wrote:On stopping the run, We look ok up the middle but getting gashed on the edges. We’re all seeing poor first tackles that turn into big runs. That needs to stop.

Agreed. Al Woods has been fantastic with his run stuffing, but the rest of the team seems weak. Last Sunday, even the normally sure-footed Diggs whiffed on a tackle that resulted in a 20+ yard run.

by **Hawktawk** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:01 am

We did have penalties on a couple nice penny runs vs Denver or he’s over 100 there easily , some in the second half . 9 ers was different . There was not one crease to run through . After seeing how fresh and explosive Penny looked I was expecting a breakout but we got pushed back . There better be a plan . I trust Geno to throw wherever on the field he wants if he can find the time but if you have no run there’s no time .

My optimism for the year was based in large part to running successfully . Also being better defensively . That’s a formula for winning with an extremely accurate if less dynamic qb . We are doing neither and last week was a pretty predictable result under the circumstances . .

GO HAWKS!

by **obiken** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:25 pm

Hawktawk wrote:We did have penalties on a couple nice penny runs vs Denver or he’s over 100 there easily , some in the second half . 9 ers was different . There was not one crease to run through . After seeing how fresh and explosive Penny looked I was expecting a breakout but we got pushed back . There better be a plan . I trust Geno to throw wherever on the field he wants if he can find the time but if you have no run there’s no time .

My optimism for the year was based in large part to running successfully . Also being better defensively . That’s a formula for winning with an extremely accurate if less dynamic qb . We are doing neither and last week was a pretty predictable result under the circumstances . .

GO HAWKS!

We have 0 great players on Defense, its not about the X's and O's its about the Bobbies and Joe's

by **Aseahawkfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:11 pm

obiken wrote:We have 0 great players on Defense, its not about the X's and O's its about the Bobbies and Joe's

We really do lack talent no defense. I think our best players on defense are Diggs and Brooks with Barton and Woolen up and coming. Nwosu is solid as well. But we don't have a Donald or a Bosa or an Earl or Sherm or Kam.

by **trents** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:38 pm

It's about lack of penetration by the D line and poor tackling by the defense as a whole. The latter should be correctable with the present personnel. Tackling is one of those areas that suffers from the move to only 3 preseason games. Teams debuting a lot of rookies on defense like the Hawks are going to manifest that to a greater degree than teams fielding veteran players on defense.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:08 pm

trents wrote:It's about lack of penetration by the D line and poor tackling by the defense as a whole. The latter should be correctable with the present personnel. Tackling is one of those areas that suffers from the move to only 3 preseason games. Teams debuting a lot of rookies on defense like the Hawks are going to manifest that to a greater degree than teams fielding veteran players on defense.

If it had just been this year, I would agree with you. But this defense having problems for years. And key drafted defensive personnel like Darrel Taylor and that Collier not working out is a big deal. Same as the weak DBs. And the Jamal Adams trade has been a dumpster fire. I get that you can't foresee injuries, but even when not injured he's just been ok.

We lack talent on defense. We're getting beat everywhere but the red zone.

by **RiverDog** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:18 pm

Hawktawk wrote:We did have penalties on a couple nice penny runs vs Denver or he’s over 100 there easily , some in the second half.

Your memory is failing you again, and as usual, it's in favor of your narrative. Verses Denver, for the entire game, Penny had one 23 yard run called back, a holding penalty on Abe Lucas that wiped out a 23 yard gain. Even if you were to assume that had Lucas not held that Penny still would have gained the same amount of yardage, that would have only gotten him to 83 yards.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=401437655

Denver shut us down in the 2nd half. We were damn lucky to win that game.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:20 pm

I'm not as worried yet about the run game. Takes time for tackles and an O-line to learn to block together. So we gotta give them time on that. If they are not rolling by game six to eight, then I'll be more worried.

by **trents** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:56 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:If it had just been this year, I would agree with you. But this defense having problems for years. And key drafted defensive personnel like Darrel Taylor and that Collier not working out is a big deal. Same as the weak DBs. And the Jamal Adams trade has been a dumpster fire. I get that you can't foresee injuries, but even when not injured he's just been ok.

We lack talent on defense. We're getting beat everywhere but the red zone.

That's because the people the rooks are replacing were not that good. I think these defensive rooks have more potential but just need more coaching and playing time

by **Aseahawkfan** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:03 pm

trents wrote:That's because the people the rooks are replacing were not that good. I think these defensive rooks have more potential but just need more coaching and playing time

Mafe is the main D-line rook.

Woolen is doing well enough at CB.

But the D-line overall are not rooks. They are getting blasted off the line other than Al Woods. You won't have a very good defense without quality D-line players. That's why Frisco can have a mediocre back seven and hold us to zero points on offense because their D-line is brutal.

Until we draft better D-line guys who can get the job done, I don't expect our defense to do the job at a high enough level to challenge. They absolutely have to hold at the point of attack against the run and have to be able to pressure the QB and get penetration at the lines.

It doesn't matter if Brooks and Barton tackle after 4 or 5 yards gained. We need the D-line to blow up the O-line a the LoS and the Lbs to fill the gap stuffing the run or the OLB pass rushers to beat their man so someone can get pressure on the QB.

That has been our problem for a few years now. When we were a great D, we had Avril, Bennett, and Mebane with some decent rotational guys on the D-line. Now we got guys getting blown up or not able to win their matchups to pressure the QB. That's why we can't get off the field.

This draft focused on the O-line. Next draft better focus on some big bodies along the D-line or this won't get cleaned up too soon.

by **Hawktawk** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:13 pm

I think we’ve got talented guys on defense . We’ve not shown an elite edge rush which is big . Interior line has been bad . I like woolen more than some though . He could be dominating , Sherman with world class speed . He not only blocked a kick but another went UNDER his hands . D line is seemingly a problem for sure . I expected more out of Taylor . Mafe may come on . The kid from the chargers is a beast , maybe the best defender so far .
All is not lost. Missed tackles prove the scheme isn’t to blame . You can’t miss a tackle until you’re in position to make it .

by **RiverDog** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:56 pm

I came across this little tidbit from Michael-Shawn Dugar, who covers the Seahawks for the Athletic:

Seattle is the only team in the league that hasn’t forced a three-and-out this season. Seattle’s opponents are averaging 7.4 plays and 50.9 yards per drive, both the highest marks in the league, and the Seahawks have forced punts on only 22.2 percent of their defensive drives, second worst in the NFL (all stats from TruMedia, unless stated otherwise). Half of Seattle’s defensive drives end with the other team scoring a touchdown or a field goal; only the Arizona Cardinals have been worse.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:02 pm

RiverDog wrote:I came across this little tidbit from Michael-Shawn Dugar, who covers the Seahawks for the Athletic:

Seattle is the only team in the league that hasn’t forced a three-and-out this season. Seattle’s opponents are averaging 7.4 plays and 50.9 yards per drive, both the highest marks in the league, and the Seahawks have forced punts on only 22.2 percent of their defensive drives, second worst in the NFL (all stats from TruMedia, unless stated otherwise). Half of Seattle’s defensive drives end with the other team scoring a touchdown or a field goal; only the Arizona Cardinals have been worse.

Those numbers need to improve if accurate.

by **Agent 86** » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:21 pm

Here are some sobering stats through 3 weeks for the Defense. Admittedly, I don't quite understand all of these stats.

397.3 yards per game given up (25th overall)
6.3 yards per play given up (29th overall)
4.9 yards per carry given up (24th overall)
8.4 net yards per pass attempt given up (32nd overall)
3rd down conversions given up 48.7% - 30th overall
EPA (Expected Points Added) per dropback - 32nd overall
EPA per run snap - 21st overall
EPA per play - 32nd overall
% of opponents plays that net 10+ yards - 25th overall
% of defensive plays netting zero or negative yards - 26th overall
3 and outs forced - 32nd overall
Plays given up per drive - 31st overall
Points given up per drive - 30th overall
% of drives that end with opponent scoring - 31st overall

All stats provided by TruMedia through an article in the Athletic.

I had a feeling the defense would struggle out of the gate but not this bad. I know we won't ever see the likes of a defense that was here from 2012 - 2016 (that was historic and rare) but c'mon man, this is supposed to be Pete's bread and butter. This is going to take more than just a few guys playing better.

One guy in particular in the article that got ripped was Cody Barton, who I think we all knew wasn't the answer to step into a starter's role. In 11 coverage opportunities, he has given up 11 receptions for 112 yards. Yikes!

by **Aseahawkfan** » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:40 pm

I truly do not understand Pete missing this bad on defensive players. It's real strange.

by **RiverDog** » Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:28 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I truly do not understand Pete missing this bad on defensive players. It's real strange.

I honestly think that it has to do with Pete's ego. I'm only speculating as none of us know what goes on in someone else's mind, but IMO it's entirely possible that Pete believes that he has such superior insight into the game, and defense in particular, that he can find players that fit his unique system in the lower rounds of the draft, that he can spin straw into gold. This would explain why for so many years, we traded down and bypassed talent that conventional wisdom and other teams had ranked higher than the players he ended up selecting and how we've been so loosie goosey by trading picks for players.

But we'll see. I've made a conscious decision to embark on a personal moratorium on calling for Pete's head and give him a fair chance to change my mind this season. This year's draft was a good start.

by **NorthHawk** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:45 am

It'll take a couple more games to see if this experiment (for a lack of a better term) will succeed or if Pete goes back to his old system.
I wondered why we didn't draft some OLB's last year when the draft was full of them and we are moving towards a 3-4, but they are
using Taylor and Mafe in those roles. The adjustment period is taking longer than expected, I suppose from the coaching PoV but it's to
be expected of players who haven't played those roles before. It's one reason we are being gashed on the edges.

by **mykc14** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:13 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I truly do not understand Pete missing this bad on defensive players. It's real strange.

I don't know how strange it really is. He hasn't drafted well in a long time. He hasn't signed free-agents that stick or are even productive in a long time. I am thankful for what Pete has done but I wouldn't shed a tear if he retired. I don't know if the game has passed him by or what but whatever he is doing isn't working and hasn't worked in awhile. He doesn't make great roster moves and he is a defensive minded coach who has had terrible defenses for the last 3+ years.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:56 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I truly do not understand Pete missing this bad on defensive players. It's real strange.

mykc14 wrote:I don't know how strange it really is. He hasn't drafted well in a long time. He hasn't signed free-agents that stick or are even productive in a long time. I am thankful for what Pete has done but I wouldn't shed a tear if he retired. I don't know if the game has passed him by or what but whatever he is doing isn't working and hasn't worked in awhile. He doesn't make great roster moves and he is a defensive minded coach who has had terrible defenses for the last 3+ years.

Nice post, and I agree completely. I was wrong about Pete when he was hired as I thought that his management style was better suited for the more impressionable 18-23 year olds than players 5-10 years or so older. I'll be forever grateful for his bring us two of our three SB appearances and our only Lombardi. It was the best period of Seahawk football by a long shot, and I've been a diehard 12 from the get-go.

I'll stop there as I've told myself that I'm not calling for his head this early in the season. But if he were to retire tomorrow, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one little bit.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:32 am

Almost without fail Pete’s defenses have improved throughout the year . In 2020 Russ won a lot of games early and when he cooled off the defense took over . Even last year the defense played tougher later in the season . And I’m not sure it’s all talent . Clearly Barton has really struggled but when the D line can’t keep linebackers clean it’s what you get . I’m ready to point the finger directly at Hurrt . At this point ken Norton is owed an apology . I’ve never seen one of his defenses be dead last .

by **RiverDog** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:38 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Almost without fail Pete’s defenses have improved throughout the year . In 2020 Russ won a lot of games early and when he cooled off the defense took over . Even last year the defense played tougher later in the season . And I’m not sure it’s all talent . Clearly Barton has really struggled but when the D line can’t keep linebackers clean it’s what you get . I’m ready to point the finger directly at Hurrt . At this point ken Norton is owed an apology . I’ve never seen one of his defenses be dead last .

You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

Pete's defenses have sucked. In 2021, we were ranked 28th, in 2020 we were ranked 22nd, and in 2019 we were ranked 26th. You have to go all the way back to 2016 to find a Pete Carroll-coached defense ranked in the top 10. And to make it worse, Pete's offensive philosophy only works when you have a top 10 defense to pair it with.

Hurtt has been our DC for all of three games and already you're throwing him into the volcano. Make no mistake, this is Pete's defense.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:46 pm

RiverDog wrote:You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

Pete's defenses have sucked. In 2021, we were ranked 28th, in 2020 we were ranked 22nd, and in 2019 we were ranked 26th. You have to go all the way back to 2016 to find a Pete Carroll-coached defense ranked in the top 10. And to make it worse, Pete's offensive philosophy only works when you have a top 10 defense to pair it with.

Hurtt has been our DC for all of three games and already you're throwing him into the volcano. Make no mistake, this is Pete's defense.

This is why I said no more excuses for Pete. He's changed coordinators multiple times on both sides of the ball. If the team is failing, especially on defense, buck has to stop with him at this point. Fans still making excuses about coordinators and the like are further enabling Pete and John to excuse their poor talent acquisition. Pete and John are at fault at this point. They have not acquired competitive NFL talent.

The fact that a fan like HT is trying to sell us on a back up QB that Pete is trying to sell us on is another example of bad talent assessment. You should know when you don't have good talent. Part of talent assessment is knowing where you are deficient and drafting accordingly. But Russell was covering up so much of the problem when he started carrying the team that Pete and John were able to sell that we were still competitive, when the defense had fallen apart.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:49 pm

Rankings smankings . Pete’s defenses almost always improve . And keep in mind the last few years we never won time of posession and had a very fitful offense with lots of punts . I felt it would help our defense to move chains more consistently. Then came Sunday . Led in time of posession . 1 three and out all day . Score on 5 of 8 offensive possessions . Still get trampled . They haven’t been this bad ever under Carroll. And yeah Hurtt what’s up . Big talk no action. I was ready to anoint him Carroll’s successor he spoke so well , so inspirational . His defenses hurt my eyes and make me want to
Puke . Easily my biggest miss in terms of expectations followed by the run game. We might not win 5 with this defense . Brady wouldn’t . I still remember 2-2 is a disaster . I went to Game 5 that year . Let’s see , it can’t get worse can it ? I like the secondary blitzes but almost nothing else . Genos the least of Seattle’s problems . He’s sold himself as a starter caliber guy whether his haters primarily right on this forum can accept it .

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:08 pm

Just caught a little of KJ with Wyman and Bob . He said he thinks the scheme is wrong for the personnel. In his view Al Woods is the only linemen suited for a 3-4 scheme . It makes sense when you look at how productive he’s been while everyone else has been lost . Kj explained the total difference in responsibility between the schemes . He thinks we should be in a scheme that fits personell better.

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