Cutdown to 53

[RiverDog]

As you point out there were periods they spent higher capital with the same results . Highest sack totals most years although we’ve run well behind most of them . Pete and john don’t draft strictly based on need . They went and got an all
Pro lynch pin in Brown . Brought in Jackson . Outstanding offensive linemen don’t grow on trees . Someone just got tired of getting hit too much and told the world and the debate has raged ever since

Completely irrelevant. The discussion has nothing to do with Russell. It's about dedicating draft resources to the offensive line. I couldn't give a rip about Russell, how many sacks he surrendered, or what he said about getting hit too much.

There are 5 starting positions along the OL, just two at WR, yet for the four drafts prior to this one, we spent more draft picks on WR's than we did offensive linemen. I understand that WR's are used more on special teams and a larger corps is needed for rotational and passing vs. running situations, but even taking that into account, I see that as being very illustrative of Pete's devaluation of the OL.

[NorthHawk]

They've shown no inclination to want to build a proper OL. Or they don't know how.
They still haven't fixed the Center position after trading away Unger. Maybe Blythe can be a short term answer, but there have been a whole host of Centers that we've passed on in the draft.
The interior OL has been a revolving door with players playing out of position and coming and going which leads to limited continuity. We may be on our way to ruining the career of Lewis if
he doesn't progress this year. The Packers replaced their starting Center and a G with 6th round picks in the same draft, so they are available if we care enough to look or spend on them.
Up until this draft, I didn't think they care, and I expect them to forget about the IOL the next draft and bypass an upgrade in the middle - or at least bypass an upgrade and the long term answer.

[Hawktawk]

As you point out there were periods they spent higher capital with the same results . Highest sack totals most years although we’ve run well behind most of them . Pete and john don’t draft strictly based on need . They went and got an all Pro lynch pin in Brown . Brought in Jackson . Outstanding offensive linemen don’t grow on trees .



"RD
There are 5 starting positions along the OL, just two at WR, yet for the four drafts prior to this one, we spent more draft picks on WR's than we did offensive linemen. I understand that WR's are used more on special teams and a larger corps is needed for rotational and passing vs. running situations, but even taking that into account, I see that as being very illustrative of Pete's devaluation of the OL.

Well our hall of fame ex corner went in the 6th so does Pete devalue corners? How about Kam? 4th?How many first round DBs have we drafted? I pointed out there have been free agent Line acquisitions throughout which might be considered a safer bet by some GMs. When you're picking late in the round or dont have a pick its a crapshoot.

When the value was there and they had the draft capital they went after 2 guys and nailed it. So pffft to the theory they dont value the position. Some of the guys they took in later rounds are contributing too.They won the second most games in the decade and won 12 games a year ago with the 35 million guy playing like crap the second half of 2020. And speaking of which It is partly about Russel. Obi made it about Russel with slap in the face comments. Its ridiculous to suggest the 2 time highest paid man in the league was somehow slapped in the face by Seattle. Slap in face deserves hit too much.

Lets see the 22 line in action to decide if Pete values a line. You always accuse me of cherry picking. You gotta include this line in the rankings before judging Pete.

[TriCitySam]

....and my point is I can name over 20 teams that had a #1 over the past 7 years that didn't work out, we are not alone. Don't know what Sporting News looked at (they graded our 2012 draft a "C"). I did a spread of 1) # that are still with their original team 2) # that eventually became a regular starter (started over 1/2 in a year) 3) # of PB players drafted 4) busts. Overall, in my view, they stacked up pretty well. The undeniable bottom line is how did the team perform, and over the past 10 years they are in the top 3. Nuff said.

[NorthHawk]

Teams are built from the middle of the draft. The 1st round picks make it easier to achieve the goals, but the meat of the build is from the middle to late picks and UFA's.
In any year there is usually only 1 1st round pick, but 6 others, so teams have to find players after the 1st round. We haven't done well with that, either since 2012 or 2013.
I think I found that we only had a few players drafted since 2013 that got 2nd contracts. It was something like 5 players in 7 drafts. A terrible record of player selection.

[RiverDog]

Teams are built from the middle of the draft. The 1st round picks make it easier to achieve the goals, but the meat of the build is from the middle to late picks and UFA's.
In any year there is usually only 1 1st round pick, but 6 others, so teams have to find players after the 1st round. We haven't done well with that, either since 2012 or 2013.
I think I found that we only had a few players drafted since 2013 that got 2nd contracts. It was something like 5 players in 7 drafts. A terrible record of player selection.

Correct. And since the 5th year option was added to the CBA in 2011, we have not picked up a single one of those options (except for Noah Fant, drafted by the Broncos), including this past season when we didn't pick up LJ Collier's 5th year.

And to show how common it is for a team to exercise that right, this past season, 19 of the 32 players drafted in the first round in 2019 had their option picked up:

https://www.nfl.com/news/fifth-year-opt ... -nfl-draft

[Hawktawk]

And still won the second most games last 10 years with all these crap drafts .

[c_hawkbob]

And still won the second most games last 10 years with all these crap drafts .

Thanks in large part to Russ.

[Hawktawk]

quote="Hawktawk"]And still won the second most games last 10 years with all these crap drafts .[/quote]
Thanks in large part to Russ.[/quote]
Obviously. Some in spite of . And huge losses when the season was on the line too. It’s a team game . Like DK said of he and Wags” there are 10 other guys out there.

[RiverDog]

And still won the second most games last 10 years with all these crap drafts .

Thanks in large part to Russ.

Yuppers.

Plus the largest degree of success in those past 10 years was the first 3 years. Even HT admits...or used to admit until he discovered his love affair with Pete...that In the past 7 years, we haven't been nearly as successful, and the last one downright horrible. It's been a slow demise.

[Hawktawk]

quote="Hawktawk"]And still won the second most games last 10 years with all these crap drafts .[/quote]

Thanks in large part to Russ.

Yuppers.

Plus the largest degree of success in those past 10 years was the first 3 years. Even HT admits...or used to admit until he discovered his love affair with Pete...that In the past 7 years, we haven't been nearly as successful, and the last one downright horrible. It's been a slow demise.[/quote]

Well you used to admit that Russ was big hat no cattle in the biggest games starting with 49. Until your whatever have it both ways view of Russell.

He won zip the last 3 years of lob .

As for my love affair with Pete I’ve done a lot of reflecting over the past 9 months and really I think as a fan with balls you have to pick a side . Russ didn’t build that defense . Russ didn’t design the offense that got The most out of his skills . He’s been rewarded over and over while winning 3 wild card games last 7 years .Russ was nowhere to be seen during beast quake. Pete designed that game plan . I chose a side and thr more I heard about the behind the sscenes actions of mark ridgers and Russ and him running his little motor mouth to this day he’s an unthankful disrespectful awful former hawk .

I think Pete has a big surprise coming . I think Denver fans will be surprised too and not in a good way .

[RiverDog]

Well you used to admit that Russ was big hat no cattle in the biggest games starting with 49. Until your whatever have it both ways view of Russell. He won zip the last 3 years of lob.

That which we did win was primarily due to Russell, but you're right, it wasn't enough to get us over the hump. For the past 7 years, we were a mediocre team with him. But without him, we are a .250 club, winning one out of every four games. What success we did have was due primarily to Russ. No conflict there.

[Hawktawk]

Baloney . We were 7-9 without him and could easily have won more that year . And if you think this is a 4 win team you’ve got dope I wanna try . Pete has never won less than 7 games . Quick question . What would Dan Fouts have done with the lob . Marino . Kelley . Manning . Hell brady didn’t need it .Joe Burrow ?

With that defense we might have been a playoff team with Flynn . Almost any coach would have picked him and Russ may have rotted on the bench . You think Rex Ryan would have started the motor mouth good boy ? I don’t deny the greatness over the years but kinda sick of hearing he was the entire difference and surrounded by stiffs . Last year he sure wasn’t the difference , maybe the opposite and we lost several games in spite of a hurculean effort on defense such as packers and commanders due to his cavalier freelancing attitude he had all year . And screwing his teammates and fans for his Brett Favre moment .

I doubt he’s in the league in 5 years .

[Old but Slow]

Does every thread have to be about Wilson, Denver, and Pete?

[Hawktawk]

Does every thread have to be about Wilson, Denver, and Pete?

Good point . Hopefully it quiets down on the 13th although if Denver wins and Russ looks good this will be the tip of the iceberg .

[RiverDog]

Does every thread have to be about Wilson, Denver, and Pete?

Good point . Hopefully it quiets down on the 13th although if Denver wins and Russ looks good this will be the tip of the iceberg .

Jeez, Hawktawk. You're the worst offender in the forum of diverting threads into a Russell Wilson discussion, and it's not even close.

I'll promise not to be the first to introduce Russell into a thread not related to the Broncos if you do the same.

[tarlhawk]

Plenty of grumblings seem rampant on our O-Line "readiness" over the years...many things are mentioned as stand alone arguments against the ineptness of our front office. Many use the draft with some hindsight visionary clarity...yet most of their "obvious" targets (missed Seahawk opportunities) are players many other NFL teams passed on...which always makes the team that struck pay dirt seem like geniuses.

Your best offensive lines gain continuity by playing together...a chemistry that blends well with understanding/trusting what the player next to you executes during the play called in the huddle...knowing the tendencies of your QB/RB/TE also factor into decisions made...a deeper pass play needs a longer sustaining of your block while avoiding holding calls...is your running back quick to hit the hole or does he give you time to drive your blocking assignment clear...do you have TE help on blitzes or does the play only require a chip block before releasing into a route. Is the QB quick to break the huddle and force the defense to reveal a quicker "read" on their intentions as the o-line "sets" so he can reset the pass pro if needed...or redirect the running play to the opposite side.

Every NFL opponent has defensive players very capable of disrupting the best made "schemes" and the experience of having veterans along the line and at QB make those kind of disruptions a bit more bearable.

Highlighting a draft without factoring in the O-lines construction prior to the draft or the addition of key veterans acquired in free agency is almost like watching a film critic "torch" a film without seeing the film yourself.

2014 is a good place to start because the coaching and GM had a better feel for what Russell Wilson provided in QB play style.

O-Lines (left to right)

2014 Line : Okung/Carpenter/Unger/Sweezy/Britt "rookie" (mainly a veteran line)

2015 : Okung/Britt/P.Lewis/Sweezy/Gilliam (P.Lewis 9 games/D. Nowak 7 games)

2016 : G. Fant/Glowinski/Britt/Ifedi"rookie"/Gilliam ( Britt settles in at center and Ifedi unable to upset Gilliam at RT)

2017 : D.Brown/L.Joeckel/Britt/Oboushi/Ifedi (D.Brown"trade" begins his reign at LT while GM adds two "vets" (Joeckel and Oboushi) in free agency to add vet stability.

2018 : D.Brown/Sweezy/Britt/DJ Fluker/Ifedi (New O-line coach M.Solari with Sweezy/Fluker better "fits" from free agency.

2019 : D.Brown/IuPati/Britt/Fluker/Ifedi (Iupati Free Agent "Pro Bowl" Alternate in 2019 replaces Sweezy at LG)

2020 : D.Brown/Iupati/Pocic/D.Lewis "rookie"/B.Shell (Britt and Fluker leave and Free Agent B. Shell arrives)

2021 : D.Brown/D-Lew/K.Fuller/G. Jackson/B. Shell ( Free Agent G.Jackson moves D-Lew to LG and E.Pocic (injured early)/J.Curhan "rookie" replace Fuller/Shell toward the end of disappointing season.

Attempts were made to maintain continuity at Center (once Justin Britt settled in) and both tackles (D.Brown gave us some of his better years and Ifedi a victim of the J.Grahm trade and many fans "hall of shame") We played very well with RW under center as a very athletic QB with disciplined confidence and strong accurate deep ball arm...but was he ideal from an O-Line point of view?

Why were short statured QB treated as handicapped against the NFL "prototype" 6'4" 225+ lb pocket passer? Line of sight while staying in the pocket gets a bit sketchy for a shorter QB on the shorter drop/crossing routes especially if your center isn't short and stout...designed plays to "roll out the QB from the pocket" alerts the O-line not to grab and hold the defenders jersey...but when the QB "bails" from the pocket the o-line doesn't have the "flag protection" afforded by a QB who stays in the pocket.

Even with current NFL QB protection rules your typical pocket passing QB takes a beating in a high pass volume attack...hence bigger bodied QBs fit the pocket passer ideal build. What made RW able to overcome the stereotype he was up against was a strong focus on keeping his body conditioning in control as a major factor...using his mobility to elude "crunching" tackles when away from the pocket also helped. By favoring the deeper routes RW often had to bail from the pocket as the O-line failed to sustain its blocks for the required prolonged time for the play to develop. Was this an aspect of poor O-line play or a QB who favored his strength of deep ball accuracy? We'll see if Denver's O-line excels or suffers with RW under center...its pure speculation at this point.

Having a creative WR break away from their route ...became a trusted instinct that RW would "find them" when he was seldom in view of the WR "looking for the ball without seeing his QB in duress". Doug Baldwin was asked how he knew when to "help out RW"...he said he could seldom spot his QB but instead trusted the pass was on its way as he "looked" for the ball to track it. As RW honed in his skills on timing the deeper routes he developed good chemistry with DK and Lockett especially. With RW traded its more likely our future will be with a pocket passing QB whose mobility affords some extended play capability. This post was to address our much maligned O-Lines (Past and present) not so much RW other than being a contributing factor at times.

[Aseahawkfan]

Abe Lucas looks like a beast in the making to me. Charles Cross looks very solid. I hope these guys work out. Be nice to have bookend beast tackles.

[RiverDog]

Plenty of grumblings seem rampant on our O-Line "readiness" over the years...many things are mentioned as stand alone arguments against the ineptness of our front office. Many use the draft with some hindsight visionary clarity...yet most of their "obvious" targets (missed Seahawk opportunities) are players many other NFL teams passed on...which always makes the team that struck pay dirt seem like geniuses.

Your best offensive lines gain continuity by playing together...a chemistry that blends well with understanding/trusting what the player next to you executes during the play called in the huddle...knowing the tendencies of your QB/RB/TE also factor into decisions made...a deeper pass play needs a longer sustaining of your block while avoiding holding calls...is your running back quick to hit the hole or does he give you time to drive your blocking assignment clear...do you have TE help on blitzes or does the play only require a chip block before releasing into a route. Is the QB quick to break the huddle and force the defense to reveal a quicker "read" on their intentions as the o-line "sets" so he can reset the pass pro if needed...or redirect the running play to the opposite side.

Every NFL opponent has defensive players very capable of disrupting the best made "schemes" and the experience of having veterans along the line and at QB make those kind of disruptions a bit more bearable.

Highlighting a draft without factoring in the O-lines construction prior to the draft or the addition of key veterans acquired in free agency is almost like watching a film critic "torch" a film without seeing the film yourself.

2014 is a good place to start because the coaching and GM had a better feel for what Russell Wilson provided in QB play style.

O-Lines (left to right)

2014 Line : Okung/Carpenter/Unger/Sweezy/Britt "rookie" (mainly a veteran line)

2015 : Okung/Britt/P.Lewis/Sweezy/Gilliam (P.Lewis 9 games/D. Nowak 7 games)

2016 : G. Fant/Glowinski/Britt/Ifedi"rookie"/Gilliam ( Britt settles in at center and Ifedi unable to upset Gilliam at RT)

2017 : D.Brown/L.Joeckel/Britt/Oboushi/Ifedi (D.Brown"trade" begins his reign at LT while GM adds two "vets" (Joeckel and Oboushi) in free agency to add vet stability.

2018 : D.Brown/Sweezy/Britt/DJ Fluker/Ifedi (New O-line coach M.Solari with Sweezy/Fluker better "fits" from free agency.

2019 : D.Brown/IuPati/Britt/Fluker/Ifedi (Iupati Free Agent "Pro Bowl" Alternate in 2019 replaces Sweezy at LG)

2020 : D.Brown/Iupati/Pocic/D.Lewis "rookie"/B.Shell (Britt and Fluker leave and Free Agent B. Shell arrives)

2021 : D.Brown/D-Lew/K.Fuller/G. Jackson/B. Shell ( Free Agent G.Jackson moves D-Lew to LG and E.Pocic (injured early)/J.Curhan "rookie" replace Fuller/Shell toward the end of disappointing season.

Attempts were made to maintain continuity at Center (once Justin Britt settled in) and both tackles (D.Brown gave us some of his better years and Ifedi a victim of the J.Grahm trade and many fans "hall of shame") We played very well with RW under center as a very athletic QB with disciplined confidence and strong accurate deep ball arm...but was he ideal from an O-Line point of view?

Why were short statured QB treated as handicapped against the NFL "prototype" 6'4" 225+ lb pocket passer? Line of sight while staying in the pocket gets a bit sketchy for a shorter QB on the shorter drop/crossing routes especially if your center isn't short and stout...designed plays to "roll out the QB from the pocket" alerts the O-line not to grab and hold the defenders jersey...but when the QB "bails" from the pocket the o-line doesn't have the "flag protection" afforded by a QB who stays in the pocket.

Even with current NFL QB protection rules your typical pocket passing QB takes a beating in a high pass volume attack...hence bigger bodied QBs fit the pocket passer ideal build. What made RW able to overcome the stereotype he was up against was a strong focus on keeping his body conditioning in control as a major factor...using his mobility to elude "crunching" tackles when away from the pocket also helped. By favoring the deeper routes RW often had to bail from the pocket as the O-line failed to sustain its blocks for the required prolonged time for the play to develop. Was this an aspect of poor O-line play or a QB who favored his strength of deep ball accuracy? We'll see if Denver's O-line excels or suffers with RW under center...its pure speculation at this point.

Having a creative WR break away from their route ...became a trusted instinct that RW would "find them" when he was seldom in view of the WR "looking for the ball without seeing his QB in duress". Doug Baldwin was asked how he knew when to "help out RW"...he said he could seldom spot his QB but instead trusted the pass was on its way as he "looked" for the ball to track it. As RW honed in his skills on timing the deeper routes he developed good chemistry with DK and Lockett especially. With RW traded its more likely our future will be with a pocket passing QB whose mobility affords some extended play capability. This post was to address our much maligned O-Lines (Past and present) not so much RW other than being a contributing factor at times.

Wow, heck of a write-up, tarlhawk! It's going to take a month of Sundays for me to read and respond.

One of the things I can see that I agree with you on is the extreme difficulty that any lineman would have in blocking for Russell. He holds onto the ball much longer than a Brady or Worthlessburger, and his unpredictability is a nightmare for linemen as they obviously don't have eyes in the back of their heads.

[Hawktawk]

The ultimate contradiction. Russ made some damn plays I’ve never seen any man in nfl history make . But as I’ve said it’s a thread unto itself how a man that mobile took about 2 years worth of more sacks than anyone first10 seasons . I can’t dig up all the stats but if our line wasn’t the worst for 10 years why all the sacks ? Geno took 13 so it might not get better real soon . But it’s going to be a fascinating experiment here and in Denver .

[NorthHawk]

We’ll see if holding on to the ball too long continues in a proper Offense.
I read a comment earlier about him working with the HC about getting the ball out earlier and there was an
emphasis on it. Reading between the lines it sounded like it wasn’t a priority in the Seattle Offense as the chunk
plays Pete wants take time to develop. They were working on the concept of getting the ball quickly to
playmakers and letting them make the big plays.

[Aseahawkfan]

We’ll see if holding on to the ball too long continues in a proper Offense.
I read a comment earlier about him working with the HC about getting the ball out earlier and there was an
emphasis on it. Reading between the lines it sounded like it wasn’t a priority in the Seattle Offense as the chunk
plays Pete wants take time to develop. They were working on the concept of getting the ball quickly to
playmakers and letting them make the big plays.

I read some on Denver. Denver is running a modified version of the WCO.

Russell did say he was still going to scramble and work his magic. He kind of chuckled and said, "You still have to be able to do some magic, so I'll still be running around." Denver ain't paying Russ to be a pocket QB. They're paying to see Russ do Russ in a WCO.

I think the main difference will be more short to intermediate passes mixed with the deep shots and run game. I think they'll use those two RBs more in the passing game since they are good at running and catching.

Hackett is used to playing with Rodgers, so he knows to manage the offense but let the elite QB be the elite QB. Russ already worked with a very turnover averse coach for years that tamped him down any time he felt the turnovers were getting too high. Hackett must have some agreement with Russ to let him "cook" as the chant goes even if he spills some ingredients and makes some messes while cooking. Russ protects the ball pretty well, but he wants to throw more and rack up them 5000 yard seasons.

[NorthHawk]

The YAC stuff is a big philosophical change and the WCO uses passes to the RBs like handoffs - Walsh considered them to be equal in value, so Wilson might get credit for a lot of yardage
by the RBs that he wouldn't otherwise get here. It could end up being a deceiving stat in that it can inflate the numbers to a degree.
They do have some potential at WR, so the long ball won't go away completely. I would also expect that during the year he will benefit from moving pockets and more roll-outs like we see with Rodgers.
It will be interesting to see how he adapts to new responsibilities and a fresh look at attacking a Defense. There's no reason to think he won't.

[trents]

And still won the second most games last 10 years with all these crap drafts .

10 years encompasses ancient history and is a convenient time frame for a fanboy argument. The concern that many of us have is that there has been obvious deterioration in overall team talent in the last several years, reflected in either getting bounced from the playoffs early or not making the playoffs at all.

[NorthHawk]

Outside of possibly the last draft and maybe a couple of players from the previous draft, it's been a real bad time selecting players since 2012-2013.

[Hawktawk]

They did go 12-4 a year ago so not all ancient history although many including me thought it was kind of hollow and the playoff loss was dreadful and the qb was awful . If looking at failures as a personnel issue then look at who got hurt seemingly every year . The running backs for sure . It’s beat to death but Russ needs a run game like almost any qb. It’s amazing how our dog meat line and beat up with injuries looked so much better with Penny tearing it up late in the year . Sure we haven’t been as great acquiring talent since the hit the lotto 2012 but we’ve added nice pieces along the way . This draft looks stellar . Whether it’s a fan boy argument I just get tired of hearing it’s all bad , Pete and John are lousy , it was all previous dude .

[Hawktawk]

Outside of possibly the last draft and maybe a couple of players from the previous draft, it's been a real bad time selecting players since 2012-2013.

Yeah DK and Lockett and Jordan Brooks suck .

Jesus H doom and gloom . This is a lot better roster then you think .

[NorthHawk]

I think there were 5 players that got 2nd contracts.
A Terrible waste of draft picks.

[Hawktawk]

I think there were 5 players that got 2nd contracts.
A Terrible waste of draft picks.

Other then most key positions it seems a philosophy of Pete and John to replenish with cheaper players . And several guys they let walk are employed including some linemen including starters . Quite a few picks got hurt . I assure you had Penny not missed a chunk of time his option would have been picked up. A guy like Blair who looked all world , got hurt and isn’t the same player . And so on . I see it the same as tri city . Every team has hits and misses. We had all the hits early but it’s a crapshoot every year . There isn’t a Sherman in the 6th , Wilson third , chancellor 4 . Not like Pete and John forgot how to assess talent .

Missed a few gems ? Yep . Lots of teams spent the last few years wishing they had a couple of Pete’s drafts too .

Whatever . The worm has turned . I trust Pete because I have no other choice .

He coached playoff teams 8 of ten years . In spite of him identifying and developing Russ he can’t evaluate a qb now and so he is starting a potted plant who can’t throw the ball or even keep from tripping . The roster is a bunch of stiffs . Like everyone thought our 2012 “c “ draft was .

Deep water horizon . Neglected and disrespected . 6.5 point home dogs to a coach who never coached a game before .

Ok . Bring it on