Battle in Seattle for QB1

[Hawktawk]

Yes sir. Geno freakin smith . Let’s ride vs “ I’d like to vent but it’s not safe “ . You can vent for 60 minutes now buddy

[TriCitySam]

I don't mean to butt into this exchange, but IMO disrespect isn't the right word. A more fitting term would be a lack of appreciation.

Well, I think you both missed the point - the post wasn’t about Krieg, disrespect or lack of appreciation. It was pointing out that Lock is very inexperienced, and others had similar numbers, particularly early in their career. He may never get there, but in a season and a half nearly all look suspect.

[RiverDog]

I don't mean to butt into this exchange, but IMO disrespect isn't the right word. A more fitting term would be a lack of appreciation.

Well, I think you both missed the point - the post wasn’t about Krieg, disrespect or lack of appreciation. It was pointing out that Lock is very inexperienced, and others had similar numbers, particularly early in their career. He may never get there, but in a season and a half nearly all look suspect.

Where I disagreed with you on was this statement: I loved Krieg, although he was never considered a franchise QB in his day

The term wasn't used back in his day, but by today's standards, he most definitely was a franchise QB. To me, that's a lack of appreciation.

[Aseahawkfan]

Watching Geno Smith for a season is going to be tough for me to watch every week. That is one boring, conservative backup QB. I would still rather have watched Drew Lock screw up and maybe learn than Geno making slow reads and being extra careful. Hopefully Penny is healthy and we can get a strong run game going with this stable of backs. Get Walker back healthy and with Homer and Dallas just pound the rock relentlessly.

[Hawktawk]

Watching Geno Smith for a season is going to be tough for me to watch every week. That is one boring, conservative backup QB. I would still rather have watched Drew Lock screw up and maybe learn than Geno making slow reads and being extra careful. Hopefully Penny is healthy and we can get a strong run game going with this stable of backs. Get Walker back healthy and with Homer and Dallas just pound the rock relentlessly.

I find it refreshing that we will have a qb that will throw in the middle . You are all gonna be surprised

[Aseahawkfan]

I find it refreshing that we will have a qb that will throw in the middle . You are all gonna be surprised

No, we're not going to be surprised. It's going to be a very boring, conservative offense where Geno focuses on not turning the ball over.

The part of throwing over the middle no one ever talks about is that where receivers and TEs go to get smashed into the earth. Middle of the field is death land where safeties and LBs love to swarm and smash the receiver. Yet ever since someone talked about it with Russ, people been acting like the middle is a great place to throw the ball.

[RiverDog]

Watching Geno Smith for a season is going to be tough for me to watch every week. That is one boring, conservative backup QB. I would still rather have watched Drew Lock screw up and maybe learn than Geno making slow reads and being extra careful. Hopefully Penny is healthy and we can get a strong run game going with this stable of backs. Get Walker back healthy and with Homer and Dallas just pound the rock relentlessly.

I find it refreshing that we will have a qb that will throw in the middle . You are all gonna be surprised

Has Geno thrown more over the middle than Russell? Do you have any scatter charts or some other fact to support your statement, or are you just giving us your highly biased personal impression?

[Hawktawk]

Russell Wilson threw less in the middle of the field then any qb in the league but in only 13 quarters Geno pulled us into second to worst ahead of only Philly . Jesus h man watch the film . Geno lives between the hashes . If the rooks and scrubs could have caught his darts we would have a different conversation entirely . See you Debbie downers on the 12th

[RiverDog]

Russell Wilson threw less in the middle of the field then any qb in the league but in only 13 quarters Geno pulled us into second to worst ahead of only Philly . Jesus h man watch the film . Geno lives between the hashes . If the rooks and scrubs could have caught his darts we would have a different conversation entirely . See you Debbie downers on the 12th

Telling me that you watched the film tells me nothing. Stats are kept on this stuff, and they're pretty objective (outside the numbers, 15+ yards, etc). All I want to know is if you have seen any of this data or if you are giving us an opinion of yours based on your own personal observations.

[Aseahawkfan]

Telling me that you watched the film tells me nothing. Stats are kept on this stuff, and they're pretty objective (outside the numbers, 15+ yards, etc). All I want to know is if you have seen any of this data or if you are giving us an opinion of yours based on your own personal observations.

There is an article about Russell throwing over the middle. He averages 2 attempts per game. Some guys wrote some articles claiming Russ runs his own offense and he can't throw over the middle, so all his detractors ate it up.

This is one of them. https://readoptional.substack.com/p/what-will-a-rusell-wilson-nathaniel?s=r

And even this article with the misleading title of saying, "You give up the middle" lists in the article he throws over the middle an average of two attempts per game compared to say a Tom Brady who does it 5 to 7 times per game. Throwing over the middle doesn't even make up the majority of throws by a QB.

Here is Russell's passing charts showing he can clearly throw over the middle when he does throw. He has very few weak points covering the field.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2021/10/7/22704019/seattle-seahawks-russell-wilson-passing-charts-bevell-waldron-nfc-los-angeles-rams-minnesota-vikings

Russell Wilson has clearly been one of the best QBs in the league. He was getting back on track the end of last year. But you know "3 Game" Geno is so much better based on three games except he isn't even better than Russ in those three games. Russ literally equaled his three game TD total in a single game. It's not even comparable.

Anyone comparing Russell and Geno and thinking they're even close even now is living in a ridiculous dream world.

Pete and John aren't living in that delusion. They'll be drafting a new QB as soon as they can.

[RiverDog]

Telling me that you watched the film tells me nothing. Stats are kept on this stuff, and they're pretty objective (outside the numbers, 15+ yards, etc). All I want to know is if you have seen any of this data or if you are giving us an opinion of yours based on your own personal observations.

There is an article about Russell throwing over the middle. He averages 2 attempts per game. Some guys wrote some articles claiming Russ runs his own offense and he can't throw over the middle, so all his detractors ate it up.

This is one of them. https://readoptional.substack.com/p/what-will-a-rusell-wilson-nathaniel?s=r

And even this article with the misleading title of saying, "You give up the middle" lists in the article he throws over the middle an average of two attempts per game compared to say a Tom Brady who does it 5 to 7 times per game. Throwing over the middle doesn't even make up the majority of throws by a QB.

Here is Russell's passing charts showing he can clearly throw over the middle when he does throw. He has very few weak points covering the field.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2021/10/7/22704019/seattle-seahawks-russell-wilson-passing-charts-bevell-waldron-nfc-los-angeles-rams-minnesota-vikings

Russell Wilson has clearly been one of the best QBs in the league. He was getting back on track the end of last year. But you know "3 Game" Geno is so much better based on three games except he isn't even better than Russ in those three games. Russ literally equaled his three game TD total in a single game. It's not even comparable.

Anyone comparing Russell and Geno and thinking they're even close even now is living in a ridiculous dream world.

I wouldn't worry about. Pete and John aren't living in that delusion. They'll be drafting a new QB as soon as they can.

Good info. Thanks for posting it. I noted this comment in your first article:

Wilson attempted just two passes per game of 10 yards or more over the middle of the field last year. By comparison, Tom Brady averaged seven such attempts a game, Aaron Rodgers averaged five, Patrick Mahomes is averaging four. In fact, among 34 eligible quarterbacks this season, Wilson ranked 29th in the league in the average number of attempts per game he targets beyond ten yards in the middle of the field. 29th! Russell Wilson!

I don't know what to attribute that to, whether it was due to Russell's short stature, that he can't see over the linemen, or that he had a desire to throw to the lower percentage sideline routes as those are where the explosive, highlight reel 50 yard TD passes are more likely to come from. But it was undeniably a problem and was one of the major causes of our league worst TOP as Russell's 3rd down completion percentage was horrible. That part of Russell's game, whether it was his own decisions that led to it or the situations he was put in by the play calling/system, has to change if he's to be successful with his new team.

I don't think the argument ever was that Russell couldn't throw over the middle, rather that for some reason, he either opted not to or he didn't have the opportunities.

What I wanted to hear from HT was if he had any such information as that which you presented about Russell on Geno's tendencies, either in his 13 quarters last season or in the preseason this year or is it just an impression of his. I suspect the latter.

[Hawktawk]

I read an article that said the Seahawks would have finished last in throws in the middle we’re it not for Genos throws in the middle . I didn’t account for the missed games but 2 attempts over the middle a game ???)point made . He’s worst vs cover 4 too . Maybe why he has 10 QBs ahead of him in the top 100.

Frankly when I try to figure out how Geno went in cold against the rams and went 98 and put 10 points and 150 yards of offense on them in a quarter I wonder if it was his different game using different parts of the field including the short and intermediate middle that confused them after basically being able to forget the middle last couple years When playing Seattle . I see the stats regarding the goat throwing there 7 times a game . Mahomes twice as many .

Once again I am right . The only reason Russ was not dead last was the final month with penny going off . But there will be no concession speech on this forum . Used to it .

I’m really looking forward to watching Pete deconstruct and disassemble Russ while dirt bag Geno surgically dissects the defense . “Touchdown Dk” touchdown Fant “
Pennys even! He’s leaving ! Another house call .

It’s gonna be funny .

[NorthHawk]

Welcome to GenoStan.

[c_hawkbob]

Being near last in the league in passes over the middle is like being last in the league in bubble screens to WR's. Nobody does a lot of it and it's not particularly effective when they do.

So what?

[Hawktawk]

Being near last in the league in passes over the middle is like being last in the league in bubble screens to WR's. Nobody does a lot of it and it's not particularly effective when they do.

So what?

I’ve heard professional analysts discuss this when talking about Russell’s game . It’s considered a flaw in his game .

When the goat does it 7 times ? Come on bob . Mahomes twice as much ? Who is right ? Who has the hardware ?

I think there may be a correlation between not using the middle and not converting third downs . Not sure . I know we don’t do a lot of that either or at least until Penny was on the loose . Does it factor into Russell being the worst in the league vs cover 4 in some way ? I have no idea . We may find out . Does our line look better because we don’t have guys out there pulling it down and running around ? We will see. think it’s a credit to Russel that he’s effective at all with the holes in his game . Everyone has them but his are getting bigger . I mean it as a sincere compliment . Russ has always overcome a lot but I think if he’s going to reach his goals there he’s got to change his game . The league is on to it .

[RiverDog]

Being near last in the league in passes over the middle is like being last in the league in bubble screens to WR's. Nobody does a lot of it and it's not particularly effective when they do.

So what?

I’ve heard professional analysts discuss this when talking about Russell’s game . It’s considered a flaw in his game .

When the goat does it 7 times ? Come on bob . Mahomes twice as much ? Who is right ? Who has the hardware ?

I think there may be a correlation between not using the middle and not converting third downs . Not sure . I know we don’t do a lot of that either or at least until Penny was on the loose . Does it factor into Russell being the worst in the league vs cover 4 in some way ? I have no idea . We may find out . Does our line look better because we don’t have guys out there pulling it down and running around ? We will see. think it’s a credit to Russel that he’s effective at all with the holes in his game . Everyone has them but his are getting bigger . I mean it as a sincere compliment . Russ has always overcome a lot but I think if he’s going to reach his goals there he’s got to change his game . The league is on to it .

Oddly enough, I'm on HT's side on this one. Not going over the middle, whether it be by Russ's choice, his lack of vision, or by poor play design, has been a weakness of his and/or our offense, at least recently. Stats don't lie. It's no coincidence that Russell had an awful 3rd down completion percentage and that as a team, we were dead last in time of possession, and not targeting the middle of the field IMO was a big factor in that equation.

Like baseball has with their employment of the shift against hitters, the use of analytics has NFL teams analyzing trends and tendencies of opposing quarterbacks. Although I have no evidence to present, it is entirely possible that DC's have recognized the same thing about Russell that was noted in ASF's link and made adjustments accordingly. I'd be shocked if they haven't.

And I do believe that in order to be successful with his new team, that Russell is going to have to broaden his target area and use the entire field more than he did in his recent years with us if he is to be successful with his new team.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Being near last in the league in passes over the middle is like being last in the league in bubble screens to WR's. Nobody does a lot of it and it's not particularly effective when they do.

So what?

When WR screens are getting jumped for pick 6’s and interceptions are made on deep throws into double coverage, especially in the playoffs, yeah, it matters that the middle of the field is under utilized. No, it’s not the highest volume of throws, but recent Russell did less than others.

[c_hawkbob]

So y'all are trying to convince me that a stat for which 2 per game is near the bottom but 5 or 6 per game is near the top is an important stat. BS. It's one of the very few that they can dig up to show as a weakness in Russ' game. Sure it's true but again, so what?

And if we're comparing the relative dangers of bubble screens to over the middle passes, seems we lost XLIX on one of your precious over the middle passes didn't we?

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I’m not saying it makes him awful. And maybe he has trouble seeing over the middle stuff so he avoids it. But I can see over the middle routes open that don’t get thrown to. Then either sack, incompletion, or interception happens. I don’t know for certain, but it seems DCs count on this and key on the sideline passes and deep routes in the playoffs.

And the play you mentioned was bad all around. An over the middle pass inside the 5 yard line. There’s far more room in the middle when you’re not inside the red zone. I wouldn’t have faulted him not making that throw.

[RiverDog]

So y'all are trying to convince me that a stat for which 2 per game is near the bottom but 5 or 6 per game is near the top is an important stat. BS. It's one of the very few that they can dig up to show as a weakness in Russ' game. Sure it's true but again, so what?

And if we're comparing the relative dangers of bubble screens to over the middle passes, seems we lost XLIX on one of your precious over the middle passes didn't we?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. All I'm saying is that Russell has a known tendency not to throw across the middle, a tendency that is supported by factual information. And for my part, I said nothing about interceptions. All I said is that sideline routes are lower percentage passes, as in completed passes, than routes between the numbers, for obvious reasons.

[c_hawkbob]

And all I'm saying is that neither is a play that any team predicates the balance of their offense on. They are both pretty obscure, minimally effective, purely situational plays that any team could easily do without, and does 90% of the time. If you're only doing a thing a half a dozen times out of 65 or so plays a game no team is going to be crippled without it.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. All I'm saying is that Russell has a known tendency not to throw across the middle, a tendency that is supported by factual information. And for my part, I said nothing about interceptions. All I said is that sideline routes are lower percentage passes, as in completed passes, than routes between the numbers, for obvious reasons.

1. Russell is being judged off last year.

2. The passing charts clearly show he can and does throw over the middle.

3. Part of the reason Russell doesn't throw over the middle is because he doesn't stay in the pocket. Middle passes are generally passes where the QB stays in the pocket hitting the receiver over the middle on a timing route. Russell doing this two times a game makes sense since he often leaves the pocket and throws on the run or runs for yards. Comparing Russ throwing over the middle with a Brady is like comparing Brady's ability to get yards running or on the move and judging Brady's QB ability while mobile. Russ is by far one of the best mobile QBs even at this point in his career.

4. The most important part and why you siding with hawktawk is ridiculous if that means you are preferring Geno to Russ. If Russ was throwing zero times to the middle of the field, he is still massively better than Geno Smith or Drew Lock or Jimmie G at playing QB. They're not even in the same ballpark as far as ability.

Geno Smith is a massive downgrade over Russell Wilson. If you're agreeing with hawktawk that Geno being able to throw over the middle of the field makes him better than Russ, you are smoking something.

[Aseahawkfan]

I’m not saying it makes him awful. And maybe he has trouble seeing over the middle stuff so he avoids it. But I can see over the middle routes open that don’t get thrown to. Then either sack, incompletion, or interception happens. I don’t know for certain, but it seems DCs count on this and key on the sideline passes and deep routes in the playoffs.

And the play you mentioned was bad all around. An over the middle pass inside the 5 yard line. There’s far more room in the middle when you’re not inside the red zone. I wouldn’t have faulted him not making that throw.

Russ has one of the lowest TD-Int ratios in the league and has one of the best TD-Int ratios in his NFL career.

Right now we hear the criticism and excuses for why Russ is "bad." It's going to be real wake up call when Seattle fans experience what real bad QB play is for a few years and possibly longer if Pete and John can't find a real quality QB in the draft. Could be years before we see a QB as good as Russell was in Seattle.

No matter how hawktawk or anyone else wants to spin "3 Game" Geno, he ain't even close to Russell Wilson and never will be.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I’m not arguing Russ is bad. I’m not arguing he’s never thrown over the middle. I’m not arguing he throws tons of interception. I’m not basing this on last season. I’m basing this on him:
1. Throwing interceptions on the perimeter and on deep shots to double coverage in the playoffs.
2. Not taking what’s given over the middle in the playoffs.

Playoff opponents have had his number for the last half of Wilson’s career. Wilson isn’t bad, but he hasn’t delivered in the playoffs like he used to. I know you’re aware of that, but you also seem to be giving him a pass on it. I don’t get why.

I don’t think Geno is better. I certainly don’t think Geno is the future. I do understand why they moved on from Wilson when they did and that our QB of the future is not yet on the roster.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

And all I'm saying is that neither is a play that any team predicates the balance of their offense on. They are both pretty obscure, minimally effective, purely situational plays that any team could easily do without, and does 90% of the time. If you're only doing a thing a half a dozen times out of 65 or so plays a game no team is going to be crippled without it.

It doesn’t seem the Seahawks can easily do without it. They don’t have to do it all the time, but need to do it enough.

[RiverDog]

4. The most important part and why you siding with hawktawk is ridiculous if that means you are preferring Geno to Russ. If Russ was throwing zero times to the middle of the field, he is still massively better than Geno Smith or Drew Lock or Jimmie G at playing QB. They're not even in the same ballpark as far as ability.

Geno Smith is a massive downgrade over Russell Wilson. If you're agreeing with hawktawk that Geno being able to throw over the middle of the field makes him better than Russ, you are smoking something.

Now where did you get the idea that I preferred Geno to Russell? All I am saying is that at least as far as last season was concerned, Russell had a weakness in that he did not throw over the middle as much as other quarterbacks in the league have and that it factored into his very poor 3rd down completion percentage and our league worst TOP. I did not compare him to Geno Smith or any other quarterback. Of course, Russell is massively better than any of those aforementioned quarterbacks. I never said he wasn't.

J/B I side with HT on one particular issue doesn't mean that I'm joined at the hip with him. Jezus.

[Aseahawkfan]

I’m not arguing Russ is bad. I’m not arguing he’s never thrown over the middle. I’m not arguing he throws tons of interception. I’m not basing this on last season. I’m basing this on him:
1. Throwing interceptions on the perimeter and on deep shots to double coverage in the playoffs.
2. Not taking what’s given over the middle in the playoffs.

Playoff opponents have had his number for the last half of Wilson’s career. Wilson isn’t bad, but he hasn’t delivered in the playoffs like he used to. I know you’re aware of that, but you also seem to be giving him a pass on it. I don’t get why.

I don’t think Geno is better. I certainly don’t think Geno is the future. I do understand why they moved on from Wilson when they did and that our QB of the future is not yet on the roster.

I'm not giving him a pass, but he's the least of our concerns for the playoffs. When I list my concerns as to what's holding us back from contention much higher on the list is:

1. Defense has fallen off dramatically and cannot do well enough for us to get HFA or to compete by keeping scores down and getting us the ball back, especially the passing defense.

2. Run game has been incredibly inconsistent with our starting RB heading into the playoffs injured.

In my estimation, the only reason this team remained in the playoff hunt after about 2017 or 2018 is Russell Wilson. If we didn't have Russell Wilson, we wouldn't even have gotten to the playoffs in 2018, 2019, and 2020. We would have been bottom feeding a long time ago and likely wouldn't have a Super Bowl, certainly wouldn't have gone twice, and wouldn't have been a perennial playoff contender for most of Russell's career.

The primary reason we are in the state we are in is a sharp drop off in talent through a combination of bad drafting and bad trades which has greatly diminished our talent around Russell Wilson causing him to as we have seen with many other teams "carry the team." And just like Rodgers and Peyton and other greats not named Tom Brady, a QB cannot carry the team alone to a Super Bowl.

Russell takes the majority of the blame for being the face man and the QB. That comes with the territory for the regular fans. But for someone like me analyzing all aspects of the play, our defense fell off substantially around 2017 and 2018 and our run game became very inconsistent. So when I look at this from a team building perspective, you have to build back up the surrounding parts into quality components that can do their job rather than rely on the QB always being able to come up with some game winning late drive or the like. Because more often than not it's not going to happen.

The degradation in talent on the defensive side of the ball and the run game has been glaring. Russell was the only bright spot in an otherwise underwhelming team for about the last five years. Yet somehow because his mistakes are the ones people remember, they forget the lack of a double digit pass rusher, the lack of quality CBs to the point we're starting two rookies this year, getting run over on defense, and generally not performing very well as an overall team including Chris Carson often reaching the playoffs hobbled and "4 Game" Penny being pretty much a bust headed for the bust heap before he revived his career with a great final six game run which had he been doing that in earlier years the entire offense wouldn't have been based on Russ and Russ alone to get it done.

When you're an opposing defense and you only have to stop one guy to shut down the entire opposing offense, not real hard to do. Which is why when people keep touting this is a QB driven league, the best QB still doesn't win the Super Bowl at the end of the year too often because even in a QB driven league you still have to be good at other parts of the game.

[Aseahawkfan]

Now where did you get the idea that I preferred Geno to Russell? All I am saying is that at least as far as last season was concerned, Russell had a weakness in that he did not throw over the middle as much as other quarterbacks in the league have and that it factored into his very poor 3rd down completion percentage and our league worst TOP. I did not compare him to Geno Smith or any other quarterback. Of course, Russell is massively better than any of those aforementioned quarterbacks. I never said he wasn't.

J/B I side with HT on one particular issue doesn't mean that I'm joined at the hip with him. Jezus.

We're in for some hard years. It's pretty irritating to hear a guy tout Geno Smith as some kind of effective Russell Wilson replacement. If you look at the other link I sent you, it shows clearly Russell can and has been effective throwing over the middle.

[RiverDog]

Now where did you get the idea that I preferred Geno to Russell? All I am saying is that at least as far as last season was concerned, Russell had a weakness in that he did not throw over the middle as much as other quarterbacks in the league have and that it factored into his very poor 3rd down completion percentage and our league worst TOP. I did not compare him to Geno Smith or any other quarterback. Of course, Russell is massively better than any of those aforementioned quarterbacks. I never said he wasn't.

J/B I side with HT on one particular issue doesn't mean that I'm joined at the hip with him. Jezus.

We're in for some hard years. It's pretty irritating to hear a guy tout Geno Smith as some kind of effective Russell Wilson replacement. If you look at the other link I sent you, it shows clearly Russell can and has been effective throwing over the middle.

I looked at both of your links. My comment had nothing to do with Russell's effectiveness. It was about his frequency. My point was that for whatever reason, he didn't go across the middle very often, that he opted for routes outside the numbers. Your link showed just that, and I don't know what the big problem is with my position as it is aligned perfectly with the information you posted.

Although I don't want to forecast doom and gloom, the tea leaves don't have a good read to them. I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

[NorthHawk]

One of the most frequent demands of a coach is not throwing late over the middle.
I think Asf has a point about Russ scrambling or the OL causing Russ to have to bail such that it takes the throw over the middle
out of consideration being that it would mean a late throw. Pete’s focus on not turning the ball over would reinforce not
throwing down the middle unless it’s fairly quick. Like all QBs he will miss open receivers but we haven’t seen many crossing routes
with any of our QBs even Tartarus, Whitehurst, and others. Just maybe Pete wants to limit that aspect to only a few plays a year
as part of his conservative philosophy.
But it’s not an issue of Wilson not being able to do it successfully.

[Hawktawk]

The interception in 49 was just a bad throw on a bad play that was a loser from the time it came in from the sidelines . But I think it’s affected how Russ plays more and more . It’s been beat up in other threads and not trying to stir it up but I wonder how many nights Russ stared at the ceiling seeing Butler appear like a ghost to rob him of immortality . It’s sad really. What might have been . The end has been very sad . My son and I were discussing it out on the boat today . It was so beautiful for a while . I’ll say this though . My kid is mini me other than he’s kind of been a Russell apologist in this whole deal .after these most recent comments about there akready being “ mental leaders” in Denver and “ it’s not all on my shoulders anymore “ he’s had it too . I’d like to know the leaders on a team that hasn’t reached the postseason in 6 years . It’s incredulous . That team had guys like Wags , Dk, Rocket . Hell Duane Brown publicly offered support for him last year when he was really struggling . “ the man has won a lot of games . If you are looking for someone to criticize him it won’t be me “ but under the bus they all went .
It was a despicable statement . I wonder if he’s so confident he doesn’t care anymore . But Sherman re tweeted his comment. Every current and former hawk will read it . There will be no lack of motivation on our part . I don’t understand why Russ is saying this stuff before even playing a down for the team .

The way Russ is acting I truly hope he hasn’t been hit in the head too much . I’m serious .

[trents]

Personally, I think the interception of SB49 has been given way to much credit for the downturn of the team and of Russ' performance. I seriously doubt it has had as much impact on his psyche as many believe. And I think there are a 100 other better reasons for the team's decline since then.

[Aseahawkfan]

Personally, I think the interception of SB49 has been given way to much credit for the downturn of the team and of Russ' performance. I seriously doubt it has had as much impact on his psyche as many believe. And I think there are a 100 other better reasons for the team's decline since then.

I agree, though I think It marks the downturn that was coming and the psychological toll on the overall team. That play seemed to have set the locker room into a spiral where primarily the big egos in the Legion of Boom just couldn't get past it.

As far as the overall team, draft picks just weren't working out and neither were the trades. You can't miss at key positions like defensive line and CB and expect things to go well as well as have so many top pick RBs fail to work out.

[obiken]

Wilson wins the MVP this year because of the story behind it!

[Hawktawk]

Wilson wins the MVP this year because of the story behind it!

And you call me delusional . Wilson might not make the playoffs this year . I have them even with Vegas for 3rd and 4 at best . Vegas was a playoff team . I have Carr even with 2022 Russ if not ahead and he’s the guy who will take the field twice a year against a guy who openly lobbied for his job . Motivation won’t be an issue. Russ won’t win much in Denver . I could see that marriage unraveling by mid season . He’s said so much stuff he has to back it up or honeymoon over .

[RiverDog]

Wilson wins the MVP this year because of the story behind it!

And you call me delusional . Wilson might not make the playoffs this year . I have them even with Vegas for 3rd and 4 at best . Vegas was a playoff team . I have Carr even with 2022 Russ if not ahead and he’s the guy who will take the field twice a year against a guy who openly lobbied for his job . Motivation won’t be an issue. Russ won’t win much in Denver . I could see that marriage unraveling by mid season . He’s said so much stuff he has to back it up or honeymoon over .

Pot calling the kettle black.

You can criticize the talking heads and analysts to your heart's delight, but the fact is that you hold a minority opinion. Every major publication in the country has us ranked in the mid 20's or lower. Vegas has our over/under wins at 5.5. Sure, saying that Russell will win the MVP is a bit over the top, but no more so than your 10-win minimum prediction.

[Hawktawk]

Vegas goes where the money is . It’s where the Seattle fan base is too . But minority opinions are often proven correct . I bet there was a guy or 2 like me in Cincinnati . Maybe a rams fan or 2 in 99 who saw something in a 3 time castoff that was throwing toilet paper rolls in a supermarket a few months earlier . There are examples . Like I’m well aware lots of of backups get the “starter “ label and turn to absolute Sh_t. That’s the question. The accuracy is there . Stats like 57% preseason look bad till you watch the film of guys dropping balls thrown literally into their hands .

I don’t worry about his arm . I don’t worry about his heart . I worry about his head . Will he make good decisions ? If he doesn’t I think the hook will be quick . Parsing Carroll’s words he said “ Geno is starting the opener . He has earned it “ he didn’t say “ Geno is our starting qb . We’re building around Geno “ ( for you RD) the hook will arrive with lightning speed imo if he’s as bad as 95% of the people think he will be . But if he’s decent that’s the question . 10-7 isn’t unreasonable at all if he is .

Overall I think it’s a more talented roster than last year . Young but talented . I recall a super bowl team with linebackers named Tatupu and hill and the coach wasn’t as good as this one and the QBs game looked more like this one than last one . More then 1 way to skin a cat . 10-7 .

[RiverDog]

Vegas goes where the money is . It’s where the Seattle fan base is too . But minority opinions are often proven correct.

Well, it's more than just Vegas. It's every major sports publication in the country, many of whom are motivated by enhancing their credibility by being proven right vs. a bookie out to make his living off of other people's ignorance, that are forecasting another losing season for us.

You're absolutely right about minority opinions often being proven correct, but that wasn't my point. My point was that you were implying that Obi was delusional when he suggested that Russell would win the MVP award this season. While I agree that his prediction is unlikely, perhaps even highly unlikely, it's no more outrageous than your 10 win minimum for the Hawks.

[Hawktawk]

A lot of the same people who make these prognostications write stuff that shows they don’t even know what they are talking about ,haven’t studied film . Lazy herd mentality . Like saying Genos arm isn’t strong , all kinds of stuff about Geno and Russ and whatever that is not correct . And predicting Geno as the 36 starter . The line as the worst when it’s already better then last year . I’ve watched tons of film which shapes my perception of lots of things. They can take their 5.5 disrespectful anti hawk bias and shove it . They are way off on both Seattle and Denver . Gonna be humorous . Tune in on the 12th .

[RiverDog]

A lot of the same people who make these prognostications write stuff that shows they don’t even know what they are talking about ,haven’t studied film . Lazy herd mentality . Like saying Genos arm isn’t strong , all kinds of stuff about Geno and Russ and whatever that is not correct . And predicting Geno as the 36 starter . The line as the worst when it’s already better then last year . I’ve watched tons of film which shapes my perception of lots of things. They can take their 5.5 disrespectful anti hawk bias and shove it . They are way off on both Seattle and Denver . Gonna be humorous . Tune in on the 12th .

Sure, there are some lazy sports writers that just rely on each other and don't do their homework. But not many of them work for organizations like ESPN and NFL Network. They do it for a living and are every bit as dedicated to their work and have as much pride in it as you do at maintaining your golf course. They aren't slouches.

Here's just one example of a very reputable sportswriter, Doug Farrar, who now writes for USA Today and has also written for the Washington Post, the Seattle Times, Football Outsiders, and Yahoo Sports, certainly a more extensive resume than those of us that post in the HawkShack, and what he has to say about our team:

Generally speaking, the same people responsible for a team’s rebuild aren’t allowed to be the architects of that rebuild. But Seahawks general manager John Schneider and head coach Pete Carroll earned enough equity in the first half of the previous decade to put themselves in position to do just that. Trading Russell Wilson for a whole bunch of draft capital was a questionable move, especially considering how badly this team had drafted over the second half of the previous decade.

At least the Seahawks seemed to break that trend with a very solid draft in which they tagged undervalued assets instead of overvalued prospects. Offensive tackles Charles Cross and Abraham Lucas, running back Kenneth Walker III, edge-rusher Boye Mafe, and cornerbacks Coby Bryant and Tariq Woolen all look to have a lot of potential. And there are a few studs on the current roster, led perhaps by safety Quandre Diggs, one of the NFL’s best.

But of course, where the discussion starts and ends with the 2022 Seahawks is what life will look like without Russell Wilson for the first time since 2011. Wilson covered up a host of offensive sins through his tenure in the Emerald City, and with Geno Smith and Drew Lock battling it out for the starting job, wethinks we’re about to find out just how much that was the case. The 2022 Seahawks are playing, to a large degree, for the 2023 draft.

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/list ... n-rodgers/

Farrar has us ranked 28th, ahead of the Falcons, Bears, Jags, and Panthers. He has the Broncos ranked 4th, behind only the Bills, Rams, and Packers. If that prediction comes true, it will likely be due to a stellar, MVP worthy performance by Russell Wilson.

So as you can see, Obi's prediction that Russell would win the MVP, unlike your 10+ win forecast for the Hawks season, is not some outlier opinion. It's supported by experts in the field that make their livings off of analyzing information of the type that we have been debating.