Mike Sando's Quarterback Rankings

[RiverDog]

An old friend of ours that used to be a beat reporter for the Seahawks when he worked for the Tacoma News Tribune, Mike Sando, has come out with a quarterback ranking for this season's projected NFL starting quarterbacks:

Sando's list was compiled based on feedback from 50 NFL coaches and executives, including six general managers, eight head coaches, 10 evaluators, 12 coordinators, six quarterback coaches and seven execs.'

Tier 1:

For the sixth time in nine years, Aaron Rodgers was a unanimous Tier 1 QB selection. He was followed by Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert and Joe Burrow, in that order.'

Tier 2:

Matthew Stafford (No. 7), Russell Wilson (8), Deshaun Watson (9), Lamar Jackson (10), Dak Prescott (11), Derek Carr (12), Kyler Murray (13) and Matt Ryan (14) made up the second tier.

Tier 3

At the top of the third tier - the largest of Sando's tiers - was Kirk Cousins at No. 15, followed by Jimmy Garoppolo, Ryan Tannehill, Mac Jones, Baker Mayfield, Jalen Hurts and Carson Wentz (T-20), Jared Goff, Trevor Lawrence and Jameis Winston, in that order.

Tier 4

Filling out the fourth tier was Justin Fields (No. 25), Tua Tagovailoa (26), Davis Mills (27), Zach Wilson (28), Trey Lance (29), Daniel Jones (30), Marcus Mariota (31), Sam Darnold (32), Mitch Trubisky (33) and Drew Lock (34).

Tier 5

Geno Smith rounded out Sando's list at No. 35 and was in a tier of his own - the fifth tier that is, which is meant for quarterbacks who are best suited as a backup.


https://www.cappertek.com/article.asp?a ... s%20season.

I'm not as enamored with Joe Burrow as a lot of people. He takes too many sacks to be lumped into the same tier as Brady, Rodgers, and Mahomes. But outside of that, I think he's done a fair job of ranking the quarterbacks.

[obiken]

I would have Russ in the top tier all you have to do is look at the QBR, I love Herbert as a Duck but what has he done comparied to Russ, but thats just me. Carr is vastly underrated.

[Hawktawk]

Ho hum. Another talking head

[RiverDog]

I would have Russ in the top tier all you have to do is look at the QBR, I love Herbert as a Duck but what has he done comparied to Russ, but thats just me. Carr is vastly underrated.

If it were 3 years ago, I would have agreed with you about Russell. But his game has diminished. His 3rd down completion percentage was horrible, the worst in the league BEFORE his injury. He's not utilizing the entire field, opts for low percentage throws outside the numbers and avoids throwing over the middle. He's lost mobility, is not nearly as elusive as he was several years ago. He's not top tier material.

I actually thought that they were being a little generous with Derek Carr. If Herbert hasn't done anything, what has Carr done? Keep in mind that this is a ranking, not a HOF balloting. They're not assigning positions based on their past accomplishments. If they were, then Brady would be ranked ahead of Rodgers and Mahomes.

[RiverDog]

Ho hum. Another talking head

It's a little more than a talking head's opinion, my friend. I think you missed this part:

Sando's list was compiled based on feedback from 50 NFL coaches and executives, including six general managers, eight head coaches, 10 evaluators, 12 coordinators, six quarterback coaches and seven execs.'

[NorthHawk]

I think the rankings reflect in part the situation that the QB is in.
The top tier is made up of dynamic Offenses and the rankings might be different if they played for lesser
offensively focused teams.

[RiverDog]

I think the rankings reflect in part the situation that the QB is in. The top tier is made up of dynamic Offenses and the rankings might be different if they played for lesser offensively focused teams.

IMO it's the other way around, at least the way I look at it. Here's how they defined a Tier 3 QB:

Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are a legitimate starter but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits these quarterbacks in this tier best.

Judging by that criterion, ie a player needing a strong running game/defense to compete, would suggest that they are looking at the QB vs. the system he is in.

And for evidence, if you look at the teams ranked by passing attempts, Aaron Rodgers' Packers are ranked 16th. Rodgers is not playing in a dynamic, pass happy offense, yet he's ranked as the top QB in the league.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think part of what Russ wants to find out is if he can enter the top tier in a higher volume passing offense. I guess we'll find out soon enough as he's getting his chance. Russ has always been productive, but not as productive as he would be in a higher volume passing offense. The NFL is all about those stats as well as the wins when it comes to voting for MVP and player rankings.

[NorthHawk]

IMO it's the other way around, at least the way I look at it. Here's how they defined a Tier 3 QB:

Tier 3 included quarterbacks who are a legitimate starter but need a strong running game and/or defense to compete. A lower-volume drop-back passing offense suits these quarterbacks in this tier best.

Judging by that criterion, ie a player needing a strong running game/defense to compete, would suggest that they are looking at the QB vs. the system he is in.

And for evidence, if you look at the teams ranked by passing attempts, Aaron Rodgers' Packers are ranked 16th. Rodgers is not playing in a dynamic, pass happy offense, yet he's ranked as the top QB in the league.

When I see these types of lists, I tend to go to putting the top QBs in the worst possible situations.
So if we put the first tier on last years Urban Meyer team, how might we view them?
I would think Rodgers and Brady would be able to transcend that chaos, but Allen, Burrow, and maybe even Mahomes probably
wouldn’t. Stanford and Wilson might have a better chance, though than Allen and Burrow.

That’s what I meant about the dynamic Offenses contributing to the rankings.

[RiverDog]

Here's my list, but I'm not ranking one ahead of another within the tier as it's too time consuming:

Tier 1

Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen

Tier 2

Hebert, Burrow, R. Wilson, Stafford, Watson, Ryan, M. Jones, Cousins, Watson.

Tier 3

Jackson, Murray, Carr, Prescott, Wentz, Mayfield, Lawrence, D. Jones, Goff, Mariota, Jimmy G., Tua, Tannehill.

Tier 4

Fields, Z. Wilson, Darnold, Turbisky, Mills, Winston.

Tier 5

Geno, Lock, Lance

[NorthHawk]

I think I would put both Wilson and Stafford in the first tier because they have carried their teams at times.
Allen and Mahomes are almost there but haven’t had the adversity that Stanford and Wilson have.
Matt Ryan was, but I think he’s slipped a little. Maybe that’s just bias because the Falcons haven’t been good for a while.

Tier 1
Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, and Stafford

Tier 2
Mahomes, Allen, Watson, Prescott, Burrow, Ryan, and Herbert

Tier3
Murray, Carr, Jimmy G., Cousins, and Tannehill

The rest don’t matter to me much, but I struggle with Carr as he showed good leadership and ability last year with all of the nonsense that went on in LV last year.

[RiverDog]

I think I would put both Wilson and Stafford in the first tier because they have carried their teams at times.
Allen and Mahomes are almost there but haven’t had the adversity that Stanford and Wilson have.
Matt Ryan was, but I think he’s slipped a little. Maybe that’s just bias because the Falcons haven’t been good for a while.

Tier 1
Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, and Stafford

Tier 2
Mahomes, Allen, Watson, Prescott, Burrow, Ryan, and Herbert

Tier3
Murray, Carr, Jimmy G., Cousins, and Tannehill

The rest don’t matter to me much, but I struggle with Carr as he showed good leadership and ability last year with all of the nonsense that went on in LV last year.

The reason why I wouldn't include Wilson and Stafford in Tier One is because of this definition of Tier 2:

Tier 2 included quarterbacks who can carry their team but not as consistently as the quarterbacks in Tier 1.

I agree that Mahomes and Allen might fit that description and be better suited for Tier 2, but so does Stafford and Wilson.

[Hawktawk]

I think part of what Russ wants to find out is if he can enter the top tier in a higher volume passing offense. I guess we'll find out soon enough as he's getting his chance. Russ has always been productive, but not as productive as he would be in a higher volume passing offense. The NFL is all about those stats as well as the wins when it comes to voting for MVP and player rankings.

I heard an interview with Tyler Polumbus a while back on Wyman and Bob . He had some thought on our qb controversy . He said of Russell that he believes he needs a strong run game to be successful and that if Hackett goes 4 wide Russ is lucky to be a top 10 qb. We saw it last year when Carson got hurt . When penny came alive we saw Russ become quite effective . So let’s see . I think he’s tier 3 , his game is a mess, Fubar and it’s a credit to his arm talent and athleticism /creativity that he wins any game. I think it will become glaringly obvious . We will assess that Sept 12. I think Pete will have some wrinkles for a guy he knows better then the guy knows himself . If not I’ll be choking on crow .

[Hawktawk]

These lists are fun . But when a guy completes 68.5 %, 5-1 touchdown to int ratio , 102 qbr and a 151 qbr targeting the recently signed superstar receiver and is dead last in the ranking I smell a rat .

Can someone explain how those stats are indicative of the worst potential starter in the league.

I smell a rat , a homeboy who picked a side , opposite of yours truly . I don’t buy his supposed method of arriving at the conclusion regarding Geno .

I’ve seen rankings with him in the high 20s ahead of guys like Daniel Jones and Sam Darnold . I wouldn’t have him any higher but not worst in the league .

If he somewhat sustained his numbers over 17 games it’s around 4 k yards , 30 TD with 15 or 20 to DK, 5 picks , 4 lost fumbles. Not all pro but top 10.

It’s just math . Clearly sando and all the doubters expect a collapse to the New York days because 2021 Geno was not even remotely that guy .

In my heart of hearts I want Lock to win , or Eason for that matter but a part of me would love seeing Pete stick it right up the league and pundits yazoo with a 10 year castoff left on the garbage heap .
GO HAWKS!!!!

[RiverDog]

These lists are fun . But when a guy completes 68.5 %, 5-1 touchdown to int ratio , 102 qbr and a 151 qbr targeting the recently signed superstar receiver and is dead last in the ranking I smell a rat .

Can someone explain how those stats are indicative of the worst potential starter in the league.

People HAVE explained it to you, on multiple occasions. Those stats are based on two small of a sample size and are skewed by having been put up against the worst team in the league.

I smell a rat , a homeboy who picked a side , opposite of yours truly . I don’t buy his supposed method of arriving at the conclusion regarding Geno .

I’ve seen rankings with him in the high 20s ahead of guys like Daniel Jones and Sam Darnold . I wouldn’t have him any higher but not worst in the league .

If he somewhat sustained his numbers over 17 games it’s around 4 k yards , 30 TD with 15 or 20 to DK, 5 picks , 4 lost fumbles. Not all pro but top 10.

It’s just math . Clearly sando and all the doubters expect a collapse to the New York days because 2021 Geno was not even remotely that guy .

In my heart of hearts I want Lock to win , or Eason for that matter but a part of me would love seeing Pete stick it right up the league and pundits yazoo with a 10 year castoff left on the garbage heap .
GO HAWKS!!!!

I don't know how Sando compiles his rankings, but he's using information drawn from a significant number of very credible sources which includes 25% of the league's head coaches along with 12 coordinators (I assume they're offensive coordinators, but it doesn't really matter) and 6 QB coaches. That's a pretty impressive group. You can dismiss the ranking if it doesn't fit your narrative as they are opinions, but you can't argue the legitimacy of the sampling method Sando is using to construct his ranking.

[Hawktawk]

The sample he SAYS he relied on . I don’t buy it .Seattle guy makes Geno only tier 5 guy in the league .as far as “ explaining “ I’ve explained a thousand tines his 2021 numbers don’t remotely resemble his career numbers, and he was over 72% completions with 3 batted balls , 5 sacks and laid out at least 5 more by a team that led the league in sacks , completed balls to 10 receivers in his first start in 5 years . As for JAx a week after Geno surgically diced them they held definite tier 1 Josh Allen to 6 points . But I can explain all I want . I truly don’t think sando or much of anyone truly studied Genos 2021 performance . All I ever said is 2021 Geno can win some games .2013 couldn’t . They are betting that's who he is . If he’s 2021 and wins this competition some people are gonna look like fools .

[RiverDog]

The sample he SAYS he relied on . I don’t buy it .Seattle guy makes Geno only tier 5 guy in the league .as far as “ explaining “ I’ve explained a thousand tines his 2021 numbers don’t remotely resemble his career numbers, and he was over 72% completions with 3 batted balls , 5 sacks and laid out at least 5 more by a team that led the league in sacks , completed balls to 10 receivers in his first start in 5 years . As for JAx a week after Geno surgically diced them they held definite tier 1 Josh Allen to 6 points . But I can explain all I want . I truly don’t think sando or much of anyone truly studied Genos 2021 performance . All I ever said is 2021 Geno can win some games .2013 couldn’t . They are betting that's who he is . If he’s 2021 and wins this competition some people are gonna look like fools .

So you're saying that Sando is lying about his methodology, that he holds some sort of personal grudge against Seattle and/or Geno? Are you aware of Sando's credentials and his roots? He's a graduate of Whitworth University in Spokane, worked for the Tacoma News Tribune and covered the Hawks as a beat reporter. He's work at ESPN for 12 years and now writes for The Athletic. He's a member of the Professional Football Hall of Fame selection committee and is one of the most respected journalists in the industry. Why on Earth would someone with his resume intentionally fabricate a story like this ranking?

Like I said, you can discount the ranking if it doesn't fit your narrative. After all, it's just a composite made up of opinions and is somewhat subjective. But you're not going to be able to dismiss it by killing the messenger.

[c_hawkbob]

Sando might be the most objective sports writer ever.

[RiverDog]

Sando might be the most objective sports writer ever.

That's a big 10-4. I can't think of anyone else I'd put above him, at least not as it applies to the NFL. When he worked at the TNT, he was a must read. His stories got picked up by the national media more than any other beat writer that I know of, which is likely how he got his job with ESPN.

[Hawktawk]

The sample he SAYS he relied on . I don’t buy it .Seattle guy makes Geno only tier 5 guy in the league .as far as “ explaining “ I’ve explained a thousand tines his 2021 numbers don’t remotely resemble his career numbers, and he was over 72% completions with 3 batted balls , 5 sacks and laid out at least 5 more by a team that led the league in sacks , completed balls to 10 receivers in his first start in 5 years . As for JAx a week after Geno surgically diced them they held definite tier 1 Josh Allen to 6 points . But I can explain all I want . I truly don’t think sando or much of anyone truly studied Genos 2021 performance . All I ever said is 2021 Geno can win some games .2013 couldn’t . They are betting that's who he is . If he’s 2021 and wins this competition some people are gonna look like fools .

RD
“So you're saying that Sando is lying about his methodology, that he holds some sort of personal grudge against Seattle and/or Geno? Are you aware of Sando's credentials and his roots? He's a graduate of Whitworth University in Spokane, worked for the Tacoma News Tribune and covered the Hawks as a beat reporter. He's work at ESPN for 12 years and now writes for The Athletic. He's a member of the Professional Football Hall of Fame selection committee and is one of the most respected journalists in the industry. Why on Earth would someone with his resume intentionally fabricate a story like this ranking?

Like I said, you can discount the ranking if it doesn't fit your narrative. After all, it's just a composite made up of opinions and is somewhat subjective. But you're not going to be able to dismiss it by killing the messenger.
I would not use the word lie and I respect Sando . I don’t think he watched a minute actually dissecting Geno . Nor did the experts he used . It may well be his conclusion . It just is laughable what he and all these other people arrived at here . Opinions as you say are kind of like Aholes. Everyone has one . If you would like to explain how his 2021 numbers make him the #35 option in a 32 team league behind rookies a year ago who won zero , don’t even start . I agree Davis Mills is very underrated , my second best from last year . But the conclusion regarding smith is laughable. Bias from 10 years ago .

[Aseahawkfan]

RD
“So you're saying that Sando is lying about his methodology, that he holds some sort of personal grudge against Seattle and/or Geno? Are you aware of Sando's credentials and his roots? He's a graduate of Whitworth University in Spokane, worked for the Tacoma News Tribune and covered the Hawks as a beat reporter. He's work at ESPN for 12 years and now writes for The Athletic. He's a member of the Professional Football Hall of Fame selection committee and is one of the most respected journalists in the industry. Why on Earth would someone with his resume intentionally fabricate a story like this ranking?

Like I said, you can discount the ranking if it doesn't fit your narrative. After all, it's just a composite made up of opinions and is somewhat subjective. But you're not going to be able to dismiss it by killing the messenger.
I would not use the word lie and I respect Sando . I don’t think he watched a minute actually dissecting Geno . Nor did the experts he used . It may well be his conclusion . It just is laughable what he and all these other people arrived at here . Opinions as you say are kind of like Aholes. Everyone has one . If you would like to explain how his 2021 numbers make him the #35 option in a 32 team league behind rookies a year ago who won zero , don’t even start . I agree Davis Mills is very underrated , my second best from last year . But the conclusion regarding smith is laughable. Bias from 10 years ago .

13 quarters does not a starter make in the minds of most people. Geno's career numbers are absolutely terrible. That is why he is rated as he is. QBs don't get rated based on 13 quarters, they get rated based on season performances. That is why the people Sando queried put people where they are.

You're the only person I know of taking 13 quarters of play where a QB went 1 and 2 and turning it into some kind of "great" numbers. You gotta win in this league. Those 13 quarters of numbers are backup numbers in the minds of most, not scary, did not win, and wasn't at all dominating. If Geno had went 3-0 and put up even 8 or 9 TDs in 13 quarters, people might take a second look. But he didn't. He ran in a very conservative passing game not throwing much, he didn't throw many TDs in those 13 quarters, and more important they didn't win.

It's why you're literally the only person even on a forum with other people that think Russell's game fell off a cliff who still don't think much of Geno Smith. If you can't win more than you lose, you're a backup at best. That's how it is.

Geno's career numbers are terrible, absolute trash. 13 quarters of play where you go 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 if you include the end of the Rams game is not going to scare anyone in the NFL. Geno not only has to put up numbers, he has to win more often than he loses to get any respect.

[RiverDog]

I would not use the word lie and I respect Sando . I don’t think he watched a minute actually dissecting Geno . Nor did the experts he used . It may well be his conclusion . It just is laughable what he and all these other people arrived at here . Opinions as you say are kind of like Aholes. Everyone has one . If you would like to explain how his 2021 numbers make him the #35 option in a 32 team league behind rookies a year ago who won zero , don’t even start . I agree Davis Mills is very underrated , my second best from last year . But the conclusion regarding smith is laughable. Bias from 10 years ago .

No, you didn't say 'lied', but you might as well have when you said this:

"The sample he (Sando) SAYS he relied on . I don’t buy it."

By using all caps in the word "SAYS" strongly indicates that you believe Sando to be untruthful when he 'says' he relied on those sources.

And I wouldn't make the assumption that Sando didn't "watched a minute actually dissecting Geno". Sando is a true professional that does his own homework, and I would be shocked if he didn't spend a considerable amount of time dissecting all 35 of the QB's he rated. He knows that his work is going to be read by tens if not hundreds of thousands of fans and critics, including coaches, players, fans, and his fellow journalists. It's absurd to think that he's just going to haphazardly slap something together and put his name on it.

[Aseahawkfan]

No, you didn't say 'lied', but you might as well have when you said this:

"The sample he (Sando) SAYS he relied on . I don’t buy it."

By using all caps in the word "SAYS" strongly indicates that you believe Sando to be untruthful when he 'says' he relied on those sources.

And I wouldn't make the assumption that Sando didn't "watched a minute actually dissecting Geno". Sando is a true professional that does his own homework, and I would be shocked if he didn't spend a considerable amount of time dissecting all 35 of the QB's he rated. He knows that his work is going to be read by tens if not hundreds of thousands of fans and critics, including coaches, players, fans, and his fellow journalists. It's absurd to think that he's just going to haphazardly slap something together and put his name on it.

Sando is awesome. His Seahawks Blog was a go to source for information when he rant it, better than the information from much bigger papers. His objectivity, methodology, and statistical analysis is what elevated him into the NFL upper echelons when he was a local guy for years. I trust Sando to analyze as objectively as possible on any topic. The guy is just a fan of football analysis without much fluff or opinion.

[RiverDog]

It's why you're literally the only person even on a forum with other people that think Russell's game fell off a cliff who still don't think much of Geno Smith. If you can't win more than you lose, you're a backup at best. That's how it is.

Geno's career numbers are terrible, absolute trash. 13 quarters of play where you go 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 if you include the end of the Rams game is not going to scare anyone in the NFL. Geno not only has to put up numbers, he has to win more often than he loses to get any respect.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that any QB that has lost more games than they won is a backup at best. I'm pretty sure that Mathew Stafford's career W/L is sub .500. There's quarterbacks in the HOF that have a losing W/L record, Sonny Jurgensen being one that comes to mind.

But outside of that, I agree with you. A while back, I did some research and found out that backup quarterbacks win about 34% of their starts, which is almost exactly what Geno did for us last season. Although he may turn it around this season, he's considered a backup QB, and is paid like one.

[Aseahawkfan]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that any QB that has lost more games than they won is a backup at best. I'm pretty sure that Mathew Stafford's career W/L is sub .500. There's quarterbacks in the HOF that have a losing W/L record, Sonny Jurgensen being one that comes to mind.

But outside of that, I agree with you. A while back, I did some research and found out that backup quarterbacks win about 34% of their starts, which is almost exactly what Geno did for us last season. Although he may turn it around this season, he's considered a backup QB, and is paid like one.

Why is Sonny Jurgensen in the Hall of Fame? I thought you said the standards were super high back then? That career doesn't look like Hall of Fame at all. He wasn't even the starter when the team he was on won a championship.

It looks like one of those "amazing for his time period" reasons.

[RiverDog]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that any QB that has lost more games than they won is a backup at best. I'm pretty sure that Mathew Stafford's career W/L is sub .500. There's quarterbacks in the HOF that have a losing W/L record, Sonny Jurgensen being one that comes to mind.

But outside of that, I agree with you. A while back, I did some research and found out that backup quarterbacks win about 34% of their starts, which is almost exactly what Geno did for us last season. Although he may turn it around this season, he's considered a backup QB, and is paid like one.

Why is Sonny Jurgensen in the Hall of Fame? I thought you said the standards were super high back then? That career doesn't look like Hall of Fame at all. He wasn't even the starter when the team he was on won a championship.

It looks like one of those "amazing for his time period" reasons.

This isn't really the thread for it as the Walrus thread would be more appropriate, so I'll just answer the one time and if you like, we can take it to the more appropriate thread.

Sonny Jurgensen was a 5 time Pro Bowler and won the NFL passing title 5 times. He was on the 1960's All Decade team. When he retired in 1974, he was 2nd all time NFL in career passing yards leader next to YA Tittle.

Check out some of these all time passing yards leaders. Jurgensen has more passing yards than HOF inductees Ken Stabler, Bart Starr, Len Dawson, John Brodie, Bob Griese, Joe Namath, and George Blanda, all who played either during the same period of time as Jorgensen, or in Stabler's case, a few years later.

I'll admit that he was a 'bubble' candidate, but it wasn't on the same scale as some more recent inductees, like Ken Stabler, Drew Pearson, Tom Flores, et al.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... career.htm

[Aseahawkfan]

This isn't really the thread for it as the Walrus thread would be more appropriate, so I'll just answer the one time and if you like, we can take it to the more appropriate thread.

Sonny Jurgensen was a 5 time Pro Bowler and won the NFL passing title 5 times. He was on the 1960's All Decade team. When he retired in 1974, he was 2nd all time NFL in career passing yards leader next to YA Tittle. The next earliest quarterback to have retired with more passing yards than Jurgensen was Ken Anderson, 12 years later, in 1986.

Check out some of these all time passing yards leaders. Jurgensen has more passing yards than HOF inductees Ken Stabler, Bart Starr, Len Dawson, John Brodie, Bob Griese, Joe Namath, and George Blanda, all who played either during the same period of time as Jorgensen, or in Stabler's case, a few years later. He belongs in the HOF.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... career.htm

You have inconsistent standards. No use in taking it to other threads. I don't want to debate something that has no consistent standard and of course not when you're so willing to toss aside your "championships are everything" mantra for a handful of players while applying it so staunchly to other players. It'll just end up being hamster wheel argument.

[RiverDog]

You have inconsistent standards. No use in taking it to other threads. I don't want to debate something that has no consistent standard and of course not when you're so willing to toss aside your "championships are everything" mantra for a handful of players while applying it so staunchly to other players. It'll just end up being hamster wheel argument.

You're missing my point. I did not post the info on Jurgensen to start a debate on the HOF. My point was that you can't always go by a W/L record when evaluating quarterbacks. Fran Tarkenton and John Brodie are two other HOF QB's that retired with a non winning records, Tarkenton at 102-102-3, Brodi at 74-76-8. Do you want to argue about the merits of their induction?

[obiken]

You're missing my point. I did not post the info on Jurgensen to start a debate on the HOF. My point was that you can't always go by a W/L record when evaluating quarterbacks. Fran Tarkenton is another HOF QB that retired with a non winning record, at 102-102-3. Do you want to argue about the merits of his induction?

I agree, He would not make it now but he was elite back then. The only fair way to judge someone is how good were they compared to the people of their era.

[Hawktawk]

All I’ve ever said is if Geno plays like last year we will be competetive . I found his brief sample almost as fascinating as Penny breaking out . I get it’s 13 quarters . He’s been terrible everywhere else . But a guy with a terrible win loss record , a 1-1 touch to int ratio , a 54% completion rate comes in cold as a cucumber and goes 98 on the champs who make Russel Wilson wet himself these days . 131 yards and 10 points in a quarter . First start 72% completion % to 10 guys . Led scoring drives on 4 of our last 5 possessions in regulation including the only 2 minute drive of the year . In overtime he drove deep enough to get near Fg range changing field position enough to allow a defensive stop and get a second possession where he was stripped by Watt . He beats the saints if Meyers can kick . After 3 weeks of first team reps he completed 80% , 4
Incompletions and 2 of them hit receivers in the hands, one to Swain and one to Lockett . 10 completions to Tyler in the FIRST HALF. 2 lasers to DK. “. Never had a ball like that” from a guy we just signed for someone to throw to . 31 points .

We scored 27 total the next 3 games but we are screwed with Jesus Christ gone . Gotcha .

You want to talk bad team how about God Almighty the anointed vs the commanders . Do you think Geno could have scored on Green Bay ? How about the bears ? With Penny going for 135 and chunking all night Russ got beat by nick Foles . Wanna talk win loss ? 35 million was a 6 game winner .

What I don’t understand is that you don’t get my point . If it’s the 13 quarter Geno we’re fine assuming he even starts . If he’s 2013 and they put him out there we will not win a game . It’s simple as that .

[Aseahawkfan]

You're missing my point. I did not post the info on Jurgensen to start a debate on the HOF. My point was that you can't always go by a W/L record when evaluating quarterbacks. Fran Tarkenton and John Brodie are two other HOF QB's that retired with a non winning records, Tarkenton at 102-102-3, Brodi at 74-76-8. Do you want to argue about the merits of their induction?

Don't know who Brodi is. Tarkenton still doesn't fit your standards.

No, I don't want to argue about the merits of their induction. I'm not the one claiming "no championships or MVP no Hall of Fame" like you have done. This is about you claiming the standards were so high "back in the day" when they were not. Unique qualifiers or as you and now Obiken are stating you must be judged by the standards of the league you played in. In the modern NFL, even one championship along with some other qualifiers should be enough for a player to get in the Hall of Fame. You don't need an MVP as a player or Coach of the Year for a coach. The standards weren't that high before. The league was just different. Easier to build dynasties and retain talent once a team was built.

So Mike Holmgren and Pete Carroll by today's standards are well within Hall of Fame standards for their era. They are both some of the best coaches of their era. The lack of championships is due to the way the NFL is set up. Bill B and Tom Brady are huge outliers as in there is a statistical measure of one to ever do what they did in the Super Bowl Era. Lots of others are worthy of the Hall for being extraordinary.

You're the one arguing about "low standards" and such, not me. I'm turning around your talk of standards for entry into the Hall of Fame. These are not my standards.

I think Russell is a Hall of Fame lock myself. It may not be for putting up the best numbers or winning the most championships or getting an MVP. It may be just be for something completely unique like resetting the height standards for QBs in the NFL and being the best QB in one of the best QB classes of all time. I'll be completely ok with Russ getting in because I can appreciate amazing accomplishments in different eras that are unique.

It isn't all about Championships or MVPs to me. Those are your standards which apparently don't apply all the time. That was my only point. There's no point in debating it as you'll likely backtrack that you said it and then argue around it as though some of these accomplishments are even measurable in some concrete statistical way. Sometimes you just know when a guy belongs in the Hall of Fame because he's done something so unique and well for so long, they deserve it.

To me Holmgren likely belongs at some point.

Carroll definitely belongs IMO for the record setting defense and the complete destruction of Denver's record setting offense in the Super Bowl.

I think Russell Is going in for long-term consistency, resetting the height standards, and the Super Bowl win and back to back trips which for his era is quite amazing.

I don't think it lessens the Hall of Fame at all. I'm breaking your balls for all the talk of "No championship, no MVP, no HoF, the standards were so high before." That's just BS. Lots of people in the Hall for other reasons. It doesn't lessen the Hall of Fame for having them in.

[Hawktawk]

Completely agree with Asea on this . Imo Pete and Mike should get in . Russ is in . If he bombs in Denver it might slow him down but he’s going . I really don’t care much about the HOF and I won’t celebrate his induction. I didn’t Hutches either . But great teams put some marginal talent in hall of fames sometime which I get .

[Hawktawk]

It appears Sandos absolutely worst option in the league will start the preseason opener in Pittsburgh . I’ve been grazing through TC reports from Seattle and elsewhere . Most pundits expect Lock will eventually be named starter if not to start the season then soon after . Caught Albert Breer on Salk and he’s down on Geno and Lock and is not convinced Garrapolo won’t wind up here . In other news Trey Lances Saturday performance was described as putrid . The Zack kid from NY got sacked 8 times in Monday’s practices and is better known for shagging his moms bff than anything he might ever do on the field . Mayfield is actually looking pretty good . Oh and Breer had some thoughts on Russ, said he believed Russ had become such a distraction it was affecting everything within the organization . He says there is a sense of relief , a new energy in VMac . He said Russ has his” orbit “ around him and everything is how he wants it now , basically running the show . But I read a quote from Hackett from yesterday “ we’re not scoring a lot of TDs but we’re moving the ball well enough to put points on the board . “

So far denver has a field goal offense . I think the league has provided us a golden opportunity . An opportunity is all it is. But having heard a few interviews it’s clear the hawks are really tuned in on Sept 12.

[NorthHawk]

Completely agree with Asea on this . Imo Pete and Mike should get in . Russ is in . If he bombs in Denver it might slow him down but he’s going . I really don’t care much about the HOF and I won’t celebrate his induction. I didn’t Hutches either . But great teams put some marginal talent in hall of fames sometime which I get .

It's going to be a few years before Pete will be eligible, and I expect he won't leave until the team is sold. Pete's contract ends around the same time the covenant about paying money to Seattle or Washington St if sold before 2024 ends,
so it would seem he won't be eligible until 2029 at the earliest.

[obiken]

Completely agree with Asea on this . Imo Pete and Mike should get in . Russ is in . If he bombs in Denver it might slow him down but he’s going . I really don’t care much about the HOF and I won’t celebrate his induction. I didn’t Hutches either . But great teams put some marginal talent in hall of fames sometime which I get .

Holmy no doubt, PC no. Just my opinion.

[Aseahawkfan]

Holmy no doubt, PC no. Just my opinion.

Why would Holmy be in and Pete no? Both have one Super Bowl. Pete built one of the best defenses in NFL history. I just don't get how Pete is a no at this point even with a shorter resume.

[RiverDog]

Holmy no doubt, PC no. Just my opinion.

Why would Holmy be in and Pete no? Both have one Super Bowl. Pete built one of the best defenses in NFL history. I just don't get how Pete is a no at this point even with a shorter resume.

I don't agree with that, either. There is a lot of doubt about Holmgren. With Pete, who knows. The only active coach that is a slam dunk is Belichick.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't agree with that, either. There is a lot of doubt about Holmgren. With Pete, who knows. The only active coach that is a slam dunk is Belichick.

I'm wondering why Holmy would make it and Pete wouldn't given Pete did something even more extraordinary than Holmy in creating a historical defense with a name that they earned.

Yeah. Bill B is the only guaranteed first ballot, unanimous (unless he gets some no from the voters for the cheating) Hall of Fame coach who is the greatest coach in football history, certainly in the Super Bowl Era.

[RiverDog]

I don't agree with that, either. There is a lot of doubt about Holmgren. With Pete, who knows. The only active coach that is a slam dunk is Belichick.

Yeah. Bill B is the only guaranteed first ballot, unanimous (unless he gets some no from the voters for the cheating) Hall of Fame coach who is the greatest coach in football history, certainly in the Super Bowl Era.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Belichick is the 'greatest coach in football history.' He's definitely the best in his era, but no matter what the sport is, I do not anoint anyone as the best ever, GOAT, or whatever. You're comparing apples with oranges.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Belichick is the 'greatest coach in football history.' He's definitely the best in his era, but no matter what the sport is, I do not anoint anyone as the best ever, GOAT, or whatever. You're comparing apples with oranges.

Not as I see it. The man won six Super Bowls with the same team. More than any other coach of any other era. I would say it is harder to build and maintain a dynasty than at any other point in NFL history, which makes the accomplishment so much more remarkable.