Watson/QB's

[NorthHawk]

The thing about Kraft is that there is a clause in the NFL Charter that says the owners are to be held at a higher standard than the players.
So if he escaped unpunished, there should be minimal punishment for Watson absent criminal charges.

[c_hawkbob]

There is usually a faulty linchpin somewhere in Florio's line of reasoning when he reaches conclusions like these. If you follow the links back he bases his "just 5" cases presented (although he does couch it as "focused upon"), as well as his "no violence or threats" on his own opinion piece from a week or so earlier wherein he first speculated that the judge may return no punishment at all. I see this latest as merely him trying to prop up his prior speculation.

[RiverDog]

The thing about Kraft is that there is a clause in the NFL Charter that says the owners are to be held at a higher standard than the players.
So if he escaped unpunished, there should be minimal punishment for Watson absent criminal charges.

But you have to return back to the seriousness of the two charges. If we use traffic violations as an analogy, Kraft's amounts to one speeding ticket for going 10 mph over the speed limit while Watson's are equivalent to multiple high-speed DUI's.

[NorthHawk]

How do we know Kraft didn't do the same thing? All the evidence was neatly swept under the carpet and is not for public consumption.
With the NFL it's the optics that matter and I agree it looks worse with 24 or more accusations, but no criminal charges were laid so it might be
that there is no punishment or at least maybe not much of one.

One of Florio's suggestions a week or so ago was that Watson pay as a fine his last years salary and that would then constitute a 1 year suspension as he didn't play.
If they wanted to add on another handful of games this year that would be all the punishment he would get. I suppose that since he's guaranteed $250M, $15M isn't much,
but it is still a lot of money for most of us. As well, he's settled out of court for most of the complainants which has probably cost him a lot of money, too.

[RiverDog]

How do we know Kraft didn't do the same thing? All the evidence was neatly swept under the carpet and is not for public consumption.

I suppose if you want to start conjuring up a bunch of conspiracy theories, you can come up with all sorts of 'what if's' about a number of individuals, including Jones, Snyder, et al. What we do know is that, unlike Watson, there were no civil complaints filed against Kraft and no criminal investigation instigated into his activities. The one misdemeanor charge, soliciting prostitution, was dropped.

[Aseahawkfan]

I suppose if you want to start conjuring up a bunch of conspiracy theories, you can come up with all sorts of 'what if's' about a number of individuals, including Jones, Snyder, et al. What we do know is that, unlike Watson, there were no civil complaints filed against Kraft and no criminal investigation instigated into his activities. The one misdemeanor charge, soliciting prostitution, was dropped.

It's not much of a conspiracy theory. We know owners sweep stuff under the carpet all the time and have been for years. I still remember when NFL players were dealing drugs sometimes on Dallas or doing them heavily like Taylor in New York or Michael Irvin in Dallas. Jones covered it all up and kept it swept. Just like when one of Jones recent executives was caught filming women in the locker room and Jones seems to have swept that up too.

Snyder has a laundry list of crap he's swept up. We'll see if he gets caught.

Owners are definitely held to a much lower standard than players even if some clause says otherwise. But hell, even players get away with a ton and owners sweep it under the carpet. It's only in recent years punishments have become more prevalent because NFL marketing couldn't sweep as much under the carpet.

We've had players who have killed people while drunk still playing in the NFL for years with minimal punishment I can recall. I think now it would finally warrant more serious punishment. All of this swept because the owners gotta have their best players.

NFL a dirty business. If they could sweep Watson's cases under the carpet, they would. So it will all depend on how they can market this. Likely Watson gets a fairly big suspension because the NFL is against a rope for this kind of behavior, not because they give a flying crap about it morally or want a consistent suspension time. People who believe that are just smoking crack.

[Hawktawk]

I don’t often say it but you nailed this down tight . As much as I love this game the owners have run a sordid operation forever . Add steroid abuse ignored by the league . Mike Webster dying a vagrant on the street in his 50s is only one of many examples . I watched the Al Jazeera report which cast suspicion on even the great manning for HGH and also implicated many athletes in baseball and track .

My takeaway was when Charlie Sly who was the dealer looked into the camera and said “ pro leagues don’t care if their athletes use PEDs. They want the biggest strongest athletes . They don’t want to catch cheaters , just make the Congress and fans think they do “ he explained the league HGH policy is a joke with prior knowledge , a single test and a formulation unlikely to determine use unless within hours . This was a 7 year old story so maybe that’s changed .

These owners are so sleazy it’s gonna bite them bad this time . Watson is going to receive no more than 8 games is my bet bet due to the threat of exposing the owners in an appeals process . It kind of strains credibility to say there’s only 3 or 4 bad apples among owners . A sexual deviant will blackmail his way back on the field .

[RiverDog]

Two wrongs don't make a right. If we were to accept as fact that owners have gotten away with the types of things that Deshaun Watson has been accused of...and that a huge IF....it still wouldn't justify letting Watson get off without paying a penalty proportionate to their findings.

If we want to clean up the league and start cracking down on owners like Snyder and Jones, then let's go for it. I'm with you 100%. But letting off Watson with a slap on the wrists won't do anything to achieve that goal.

[NorthHawk]

I’m not sure that there’s an appetite to clean things up. It might mean a lesser product and thus lesser revenues.
A few months or maybe less after Watsons punishment is announced the focus of the NFL coverage will be elsewhere.

[Aseahawkfan]

Two wrongs don't make a right. If we were to accept as fact that owners have gotten away with the types of things that Deshaun Watson has been accused of...and that a huge IF....it still wouldn't justify letting Watson get off without paying a penalty proportionate to their findings.

If we want to clean up the league and start cracking down on owners like Snyder and Jones, then let's go for it. I'm with you 100%. But letting off Watson with a slap on the wrists won't do anything to achieve that goal.

Ain't no right or wrong in the NFL. There is just marketing. This is all a giant illusion of justice brought about by changing American ideas of justice that the NFL is marketing to. It's arbitrary and dependent on what they can arbitrate with the union. Even the union knows they have to do something. How much, we shall see.

[RiverDog]

Two wrongs don't make a right. If we were to accept as fact that owners have gotten away with the types of things that Deshaun Watson has been accused of...and that a huge IF....it still wouldn't justify letting Watson get off without paying a penalty proportionate to their findings.

If we want to clean up the league and start cracking down on owners like Snyder and Jones, then let's go for it. I'm with you 100%. But letting off Watson with a slap on the wrists won't do anything to achieve that goal.

Ain't no right or wrong in the NFL. There is just marketing. This is all a giant illusion of justice brought about by changing American ideas of justice that the NFL is marketing to. It's arbitrary and dependent on what they can arbitrate with the union. Even the union knows they have to do something. How much, we shall see.

If the player's union knows that they have to do something to clean up the sport, they certainly aren't showing it. They're arguing for no punishment at all for Watson.

My point is that what Watson is being accused of and what Kraft, Snyder, and Jones have/may have done is apples and oranges. Kraft had one documented incident where he solicited a prostitute. IMO that's more of an embarrassment than it is a crime. Watson has had 24 civil complaints filed with the courts and has had a grand jury contemplate criminal charges not once, but twice. In my opinion, the reason neither of the grand juries pursued the allegations was that the only evidence they could use was eyewitness testimony, his word against hers, and considering the trade that these women worked in, a smart defense attorney would have ripped apart their credibility. Many of them would have bailed out and taken the 5th. No sense wasting taxpayer money on a case that had a low probability of success.

[NorthHawk]

The players union is there to protect the players, not clean up the game or any aspect thereof.

Watson has a large volume of complaints but are we sure that Kraft only did this once? I don't think any person believes that - and the Jones incident? How long has that
been going on? And in many ways it's just as bad or worse than what Watson did. It reinforces the idea that there are two systems of justice in the NFL (and society) with
one for the owners and one for the players.
I think the punishment for Kraft, Jones, and Snyder will mitigate the punishment for Watson. Maybe to a big degree.

[Hawktawk]

The players union is there to protect the players, not clean up the game or any aspect thereof.

Watson has a large volume of complaints but are we sure that Kraft only did this once? I don't think any person believes that - and the Jones incident? How long has that
been going on? And in many ways it's just as bad or worse than what Watson did. It reinforces the idea that there are two systems of justice in the NFL (and society) with
one for the owners and one for the players.
I think the punishment for Kraft, Jones, and Snyder will mitigate the punishment for Watson. Maybe to a big degree.

I completely agree on Kraft . Oh gee I’m 73 maybe I’ll go get a happy ending massage it was likely a regular occurrence and even if it wasn’t unlike my buddy river I see it as an embarrassment and a crime .
And I look at a guy like Ross with his pay to not play to win strategy etc . Some of these guys have no guardrails .

If 3 billionaire men are known to the public it’s hard to believe it’s all of them .10%.

Not saying it is but it would seem if these guys had nothing to hide guys like Snyder would be gone already

[NorthHawk]

And you mentioned Snyder.
Here he is ducking a subpoena to testify before the Oversight Committee by claiming he has football business he has to deal with - all the while he is supposedly under suspension
by the league and have nothing to do with the team during that period.
I have no love or respect for what Watson did or does, but it's ridiculous how different the two sides are dealt with.

[RiverDog]

And you mentioned Snyder.
Here he is ducking a subpoena to testify before the Oversight Committee by claiming he has football business he has to deal with - all the while he is supposedly under suspension
by the league and have nothing to do with the team during that period.
I have no love or respect for what Watson did or does, but it's ridiculous how different the two sides are dealt with.

I couldn't agree more. But using the league's reluctance to discipline their owners isn't an excuse to go light on Watson.

And in fairness to the league, they did force Jerry Richardson to sell his team when complaints of his sexual misconduct arose, so it's not like they never do anything to the owners.

[NorthHawk]

I couldn't agree more. But using the league's reluctance to discipline their owners isn't an excuse to go light on Watson.

I think it is.
They both fall under the conduct policy with the owners specifically noted as having a higher standard.
If their standard is no discipline, then the players should have the same punishment.

[Aseahawkfan]

I couldn't agree more. But using the league's reluctance to discipline their owners isn't an excuse to go light on Watson.

And in fairness to the league, they did force Jerry Richardson to sell his team when complaints of his sexual misconduct arose, so it's not like they never do anything to the owners.

The players have always been held to a higher standard than the owners depending on what can be swept up. Watson's biggest crime to the owners is he let this become public. So they have to do something at this point or the marketing around the NFL will look bad, which is the whole reason they had to change their policies to start with. I figure Watson will get something. What? I'm not sure. I imagine that's what this arbitration process is about. My buddy went with a 14 game suspension. I'm still not sure what he'll get, maybe a year or he might get off easy with a year and time served which would in essence amount to nothing. He's already been out of the game for a year, right? Not sure what Cleveland bet on.

I can see the player's union arguing he's already served a year suspension.

[RiverDog]

The league and the arbitrator had hoped to come to a decision on Watson's impending suspension by the start of training camp. Well, we're here, as veterans are to report to camp today and the first full practice session is Wednesday. Watson has already reported to the Brown's camp.

If we are to look at this like one would look at a criminal trial when the jury is handed the case and goes into deliberation, a quick decision usually means a conviction. The longer the jury stays out, the higher the likelihood of an acquittal or hung jury. If we don't hear something from the arbitrator within the next day or two, I'm betting that the league will not get the indefinite suspension that they are seeking.

Anyone want to take me up on my gentleman's bet?

[obiken]

The league and the arbitrator had hoped to come to a decision on Watson's impending suspension by the start of training camp. Well, we're here, as veterans are to report to camp today and the first full practice session is Wednesday. Watson has already reported to the Brown's camp.

If we are to look at this like one would look at a criminal trial when the jury is handed the case and goes into deliberation, a quick decision usually means a conviction. The longer the jury stays out, the higher the likelihood of an acquittal or hung jury. If we don't hear something from the arbitrator within the next day or two, I'm betting that the league will not get the indefinite suspension that they are seeking.

Anyone want to take me up on my gentleman's bet?

No I think they have to give him atleast 8 games. Why they are taking so long River is deciding the penalty not the IF. I am not sold out to that position, I think no matter what they do its going to be unloved by someone, especially on this case.

[c_hawkbob]

Anyone want to take me up on my gentleman's bet?

You're asking for the field against a single potential outcome. That's a pretty stout limb you're on. Always take the field.

[RiverDog]

Anyone want to take me up on my gentleman's bet?

You're asking for the field against a single potential outcome. That's a pretty stout limb you're on. Always take the field.

LOL! Good point.

I'll narrow it down a bit. I'll say that if we don't hear something by the end of this week, it means an 8 game suspension. If we do hear something by the end of this week, it means an indefinite suspension.

Is that any better?

[RiverDog]

The league and the arbitrator had hoped to come to a decision on Watson's impending suspension by the start of training camp. Well, we're here, as veterans are to report to camp today and the first full practice session is Wednesday. Watson has already reported to the Brown's camp.

If we are to look at this like one would look at a criminal trial when the jury is handed the case and goes into deliberation, a quick decision usually means a conviction. The longer the jury stays out, the higher the likelihood of an acquittal or hung jury. If we don't hear something from the arbitrator within the next day or two, I'm betting that the league will not get the indefinite suspension that they are seeking.

Anyone want to take me up on my gentleman's bet?

No I think they have to give him atleast 8 games. Why they are taking so long River is deciding the penalty not the IF. I am not sold out to that position, I think no matter what they do its going to be unloved by someone, especially on this case.

Oh, I think that 8 games will be the bare minimum. I can't see them going with 4 or less. That's what Worthlessburger got for much less serious accusations.

My thought is, as I put it to C-Bob, that the bottom end will be 8 games and the upper end an indefinite suspension.

[c_hawkbob]

Anyone want to take me up on my gentleman's bet?

You're asking for the field against a single potential outcome. That's a pretty stout limb you're on. Always take the field.

LOL! Good point.

I'll narrow it down a bit. I'll say that if we don't hear something by the end of this week, it means an 8 game suspension. If we do hear something by the end of this week, it means an indefinite suspension.

Is that any better?

Yeah that's better, I'll say it's a year either way, because if she come's up short of the year Goodell can over ride her and do what he wants anyway.

[tarlhawk]

Whatever the outcome...it looks like the Browns will be counting on Jacoby Brissett this year...unless they want to inquire into Jimmy Garoppolo or if Green Bay is willing to offer Jordan Love. Garoppolo would be interesting since both he and Brissett both share roots with the New England Patriots.

[Hawktawk]

Just read an interesting locker room insider report that many 9ers players prefer Jimmy G to Trey lance . It just illustrates the insanity that is the nfl quarterback position these days . I love how people say yeah there’s this can’t miss guy next draft . It doesn’t work more often than it does . Who knows what happens with Lance , bad things I hope but sounds like so far he’s hardly won the locker room from a guy the 9ers can’t wait to get rid of .

[NorthHawk]

Back to the OP,
Watson gets 6 games from the judge, he loses $345000 in salary, and has to get massages only from Browns staff.
The NFL has 3 days to appeal.

[RiverDog]

Back to the OP,
Watson gets 6 games from the judge, he loses $345000 in salary, and has to get massages only from Browns staff.
The NFL has 3 days to appeal.

I would have won my 'bet'. Once the arbitrator took over a week past the opening of training camp, which was their original target for a decision, it became apparent to me that she was going to go considerably easier on him than what the league was asking for.

IMO it's absurd that Worthlessburger got 4 days for much less serious accusations.

[Hawktawk]

It’s a joke . Too many owners with skeletons in their closet or living room . 10 incidents for every missed game . Sordid . I hope this prick absolutely stinks on the field.

[obiken]

It’s a joke . Too many owners with skeletons in their closet or living room . 10 incidents for every missed game . Sordid . I hope this prick absolutely stinks on the field.

Of course it is, but thats the NFL. The league will appeal and RG will up it to 8 games. I think the league should set up a panel of former players, owners, and the union, to decide player conduct policy. Minimally they should have a set of rules for this stuff.

[NorthHawk]

I would have won my 'bet'. Once the arbitrator took over a week past the opening of training camp, which was their original target for a decision, it became apparent to me that she was going to go considerably easier on him than what the league was asking for.

IMO it's absurd that Worthlessburger got 4 days for much less serious accusations.

I read an opinion that said they thought the Judge was taking longer because there were still discussions between Watson and the NFL and she wanted them to conclude in case they came to an agreement.
They couldn't agree so she came down with her ruling.

Considering the lack of action against the owners for their misdeeds, it's about what is expected and the NFL only presented 4 cases to be judged upon not the 24 or so that had accused him.
Both are mitigating factors in sentencing but the NFL can appeal as well, Goodell can add additional punishment as Commissioner.

[RiverDog]

It’s a joke . Too many owners with skeletons in their closet or living room . 10 incidents for every missed game . Sordid . I hope this prick absolutely stinks on the field.

Of course it is, but thats the NFL. The league will appeal and RG will up it to 8 games. I think the league should set up a panel of former players, owners, and the union, to decide player conduct policy. Minimally they should have a set of rules for this stuff.

There's a big risk that the league takes if they trump this decision and impose their own justice. This is the first time under the new agreement with the NFLPA that they've used an arbitrator to decide discipline and they were hoping that it would dash criticism of the Commissioner being the judge, jury, and executioner. IMO they're not going to discard this decision for a measly two games. If they set it aside and impose their own suspension, it will be for a season long suspension as they were asking as the minimum.

The league has until this Thursday to file an appeal.

[Aseahawkfan]

6 games. Wasn't he out all last year too?

[NorthHawk]

6 games. Wasn't he out all last year too?

Yes, but he got paid $10M for doing nothing.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes, but he got paid $10M for doing nothing.

That is still a total of a 23 game suspension. Much longer than Ben's 4 games. If he is out all this year too, it's a 34 game suspension. I can see how a judge would see that as time served.

[NorthHawk]

Watson wasn't suspended, he just wasn't being used.

[RiverDog]

Here's an interesting article about the league's inconsistent application of the Personal Conduct Policy. I've edited out a couple paragraphs but the full article is in the link:

Watson has settled all but one of the 24 sexual misconduct lawsuits against him. The NFL had sought to suspend him indefinitely, allowing him to apply for reinstatement after the 2022 season, but retired judge Sue Robinson opted to stick with the league’s precedent for sexual misconduct. Former Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger was suspended six games (though he only served four) in 2010 after he was accused of sexual assault.

The most notable example of the NFL’s inconsistency came in 2014. Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice was accused of domestic violence. The league’s previous precedent was no more than two games, which is what Rice received. “I believe that you are sincere in your desire to learn from this matter and move forward toward a healthy relationship and successful career,” Goodell said in a letter accompanying the suspension.

The league then announced that future instances of domestic violence would result in a six-game suspension, followed by a lifetime suspension for a second offense. But the goodwill for Rice did not last much longer after that. Video released from the incident showed him punching and knocking out his wife in an elevator. The league then suspended him indefinitely.

Since then, the NFL’s personal conduct suspensions have been an inscrutable hodgepodge. In 2018, Seattle Seahawks linebacker Mychal Kendricks was suspended eight games for insider trading. In 2020, Antonio Brown was suspended for eight games after pleading no contest to burglary and battery charges. Some domestic violence cases got the proposed six-game suspension (like Dallas Cowboys running back Ezekiel Elliott), while others got four games.

Most recently, Atlanta Falcons receiver Calvin Ridley got the suspension the league wanted to impose on Watson. Ridley will miss the 2022 season and have to apply for reinstatement afterward for gambling on NFL games while he was away from the team. While this was not a suspension under the personal conduct policy, it highlights more inconsistency from the NFL, which has embraced legal sports gambling and has business agreements with several sportsbooks.

The NFL has put itself in an unwinnable position when it comes to personal conduct suspensions, and the league hasn’t made it any easier on itself with its inconsistencies. Watson’s case may be the most high-profile example, but it isn’t the first time the league’s personal conduct policy has resulted in a questionable length of suspension, and it won’t be the last.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... process-is

Although I agree that the league has been horribly inconsistent in their application of the Personal Conduct Policy, IMO two wrongs don't make a right. If inconsistencies are shown, then set them aside and judge the case strictly on its own merits.

[NorthHawk]

Don’t most judges use precedent as a guide for sentencing? If so, then with the NFL being sometimes
lenient then the sentence is within the norm.

[RiverDog]

Don’t most judges use precedent as a guide for sentencing? If so, then with the NFL being sometimes
lenient then the sentence is within the norm.

Yes, they do use precedent. However, Watson's case is unprecedented. The only one that involves the same offense, accused sexual assault, was Ben Worthlessburger, who got 6 weeks later reduced to 4 for 2 accusations, one of which he settled out of court. That pales in comparison to Watson's 24 accusers, 23 of which he settled out of court.

If you want to use precedent and apply a 4 week suspension for 2 unproven sexual assault to Watson's 24, or two weeks per accusation, then Watson should receive a 48 week suspension.

[tarlhawk]

It seems like this ugly case is over and done with...but both sides can still appeal the decision and if the NFL commissioner isn't satisfied the NFL can appeal and the appeal would go to his office and he would have "final" say.

[RiverDog]

There's been a lot of reaction on social media, most of it critical of the decision. Here's a sampling:

Calvin Ridley made a bet that his team will win a game in the NFL. He got suspended indefinitely, through at least the entire 2022 season and possibly more. He also lost $11.1 million in salary. Deshaun Watson meanwhile received 6 game suspension, he'll only lose less than $1M.

For perspective, Cardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins received a 6-game suspension for a PED violation. Deshaun Watson was facing over 24 sexual misconduct lawsuits.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/deshaun- ... suspension

That pretty much sums up the opinions I've been reading. IMO it's a foregone conclusion that the league will appeal the decision.