Let's talk about Denver a bit

[Aseahawkfan]

It's ironic, as this morning, without my usual weekday local morning news to occupy me at 3:30 am, I watched the replay of the Bengals/Rams Super Bowl on NFL Network. Sorry, man, it was not a 'defensive' game. Good defense, yes, especially at the end by the Rams when the game was on the line and their pass rush finally began to wear down the Bengals' overmatch offensive line. But that was AFTER the Rams' offense had gone 79 yards in 15 plays and trailing by 4 to score the winning TD with 85 seconds left in the game.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Good defense or defensive game, whatever. Bottom line is defense was extremely relevant. Both defenses held both offenses to under their scoring averages. The Rams had 16 points going into the final five minutes and the Bengals scored 20 points. It wasn't a shootout or high-powered offense game.

Point is even you acknowledge defense still mattered. And was necessary for a win. Not like some are claiming where dominant offense is what we need now because the rules no longer allow defense. It was a couple of well-matched teams with good balance on both sides of the ball slugging it out until one finally had more points at the end in a low scoring Super Bowl compared to how you could characterize a offensive game.

Even looking over the results of Super Bowls of the last five years, we've had some real gems by teams whose defenses stepped up big whether ours or the 13-3 New England win over the Rams in 2019. Where was McVay's spectacular offense then? Bill B didn't look like a dinosaur holding the Rams to 3 points three years ago.

Even last year the Tampa Bay defense stepped up big holding KC and Mahomes to 9 points. Sure the tackles were out, but 9 points is still super low for a Super Bowl team with Mahomes as QB.

Defense still matters a lot in the modern NFL even with the rule changes. Pete's methodology still works as does Belichicks' and any other defensive coach. Flavor of the past few years McVay has still produced one Super Bowl and even that Super Bowl required his defense to get a last stop to prevent even a field goal to win.

[Hawktawk]

It's ironic, as this morning, without my usual weekday local morning news to occupy me at 3:30 am, I watched the replay of the Bengals/Rams Super Bowl on NFL Network. Sorry, man, it was not a 'defensive' game. Good defense, yes, especially at the end by the Rams when the game was on the line and their pass rush finally began to wear down the Bengals' overmatch offensive line. But that was AFTER the Rams' offense had gone 79 yards in 15 plays and trailing by 4 to score the winning TD with 85 seconds left in the game.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Damn lies and statistics . When both teams are well below season averages and the rams nose tackle ends the game making 3 incredible plays including tackling a fullback with one arm from behind while being blocked the defense won the game .

Most don’t understand the 4 th down play was a likely walk off homerun as young had smoked Ramsey and Donald disrupted the play or maybe 180% different result . Defense won the ball game . Stats be damned .

[Old but Slow]

Since this thread has turned philosophical, rather than focused specifically on Denver, I feel able to contribute because I know more about carbon dating than I do about Denver. And I know damn little about carbon dating. That said, unnecesarily, the strengths of offenses and defenses fluctuate over time. The offenses may dominate until the defensive scheming catches up and the situation reverses.

Look at scores in the past, as there are periods when the total score of a game might be 60+, and other periods when scores are 20 points lower. The question for me is what amount of scoring would we call standard or normal? For me two teams scoring in the 20s would fit. As offenses thrive the scoring goes up, and as everyone loves scoring, the rules tend to weigh it positively. As I remember as a young fan in the 50's the scores were lower than they are now. Exceptions, but it leads me to wonder if scoring has increased in a progression, or alternatively?

Some industrious soul (River?) can probably bring up some stats to support for my view, or viscerate me in public view. So, I will sit back, puff on my pipe, and wait.

[Hawktawk]

Obviously rules to protect QBs and receivers have turbocharged passing offenses. My first live kingdome game I saw Boz hit the KC QB in the head so hard his helmet popped off and he was sitting dazed with a nosebleed . Same game I saw a receiver alligator arm a pass with Easley steaming downhill and he still blew him up. Both are flags now.

[RiverDog]

Since this thread has turned philosophical, rather than focused specifically on Denver, I feel able to contribute because I know more about carbon dating than I do about Denver. And I know damn little about carbon dating. That said, unnecesarily, the strengths of offenses and defenses fluctuate over time. The offenses may dominate until the defensive scheming catches up and the situation reverses.

Look at scores in the past, as there are periods when the total score of a game might be 60+, and other periods when scores are 20 points lower. The question for me is what amount of scoring would we call standard or normal? For me two teams scoring in the 20s would fit. As offenses thrive the scoring goes up, and as everyone loves scoring, the rules tend to weigh it positively. As I remember as a young fan in the 50's the scores were lower than they are now. Exceptions, but it leads me to wonder if scoring has increased in a progression, or alternatively?

Some industrious soul (River?) can probably bring up some stats to support for my view, or viscerate me in public view. So, I will sit back, puff on my pipe, and wait.

Well, I didn't intend on leading this thread into an argument of offense vs. defense, but since it was put in such an eloquent manner, I'll have to reciprocate by doing a little homework.

I found a data base that showed the cumulative team scoring histories going all the way to 1922, 100 years ago. Last season, the total points per game per team was 23.0. The year before, in 2020, scoring an all time high at 23.8 PPG. If we want to pick as a starting point 1966, the season that culminated in what is now known as Super Bowl 1, the three lowest scoring years were all in the 70's at roughly 17-18 ppg. The top 10 highest scoring years, between 22 and 25 ppg, have all come in the previous decade. During the decade from 2010-2019, there was just one year, 2017, where scoring slipped below 22 PPG. The difference between 17 ppg and 23 ppg on the surface may not sound like much, but it represents a 35% increase in just 10 years.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... coring.htm

It is undeniable that the trend has been towards higher scoring, and although there has been some rule changes that has favored defenses, I think that it's fair to attribute a good deal of that increase to rule changes that have allowed offenses more freedom, and not just rules protecting the quarterback and defenseless receivers, but things like the outlawing of the bump-and-run defense, which IMO had a huge effect. Offensive holding used to be a 15 yard penalty. Now, it's a less punitive 10 yards. Offensive holding itself has been liberalized. In my day, an offensive lineman wasn't permitted to use their hands to nearly the same degree that they are now. As an offensive guard in high school in the early 70's, I was taught to block with closed fists and raised elbows. Any contact with an open hand on a defensive player could draw a 15 yarder. That interpretation has since been liberalized.

So hopefully that reinforces our pipe puffing colleague's assumption.

[NorthHawk]

Because it’s tougher for defenses, the Offense becomes more important.
It’s why the need for balance is key for long term success.

If our draft picks work out, in a couple of years we might have a balanced team - and if Pete allows
Waldron to run a more advanced Offense than he has which isn’t a given as of today.

[Aseahawkfan]

Because it’s tougher for defenses, the Offense becomes more important.
It’s why the need for balance is key for long term success.

If our draft picks work out, in a couple of years we might have a balanced team - and if Pete allows
Waldron to run a more advanced Offense than he has which isn’t a given as of today.

The offense doesn't become more important. That isn't true. The QB became more important, but not the offense as a whole. In fact, the run offense is highly devalued unless you have an exceptional runner.

Defense is still vitally important. Which is why teams like KC who got crushed by Tampa and the Rams who were held to 3 points couldn't keep up with teams that focused on taking away what they did. A defense allows you to compete when things aren't going well on offense. Defense is as important as it has ever been even with higher scoring because you still need to hold the opponent lower than your team. We've all seen teams that can score a lot, but they end up in huge shootouts they don't win championships any more than some anemic offense team with a good offense.

It always has and always will come down to talent, balance, and staying healthy and getting hot at the right time.

[Hawktawk]

AFC west
KC
CHargers
Raiders
Let’s ride a donkey .

It’s out there . Denver will be looking for the flight data recorder by December . They are not coming in here with a passing offense featuring 2021 Russ and winning anything . For his prior greatness Russ needs a strong run game as evidenced by his late season stats with Penny running wild . But they are gonna let Russ cook . Hackett is known as a pocket passing guru and his offenses have featured chain moving throws as much as deep balls. If he fixes Russ to back to prior to mid 2020 to moving chains as well as being dynamic with his deep ball I will be eating crow . But if he wouldn’t accept coaching or criticism from a veteran coach who took him to the top of the world he ain’t gonna listen to a newbie either . His linemen are gonna need eyes in the back of their heads and particularly his defense will learn real quick their stats will suffer being on the field after another 3 and out . Good luck Denver

Bored this morning so looking back at some stuff. I know a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then but this was pretty close, thank god.

[RiverDog]

And here's what I said:

There is no doubt that the AFC West is a tough division, but it's not any better or worse than our division. We've seen what a very good quarterback can do for a number of teams, and although he's (Russell) going to have to make some changes in his game from what he had been doing the past few years here, I'd rate the Broncos chances ahead of the Raiders. It will be an interesting division.

I had the Broncos 3rd in their division, behind the Chiefs and Chargers and ahead of the Raiders.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah good one . Check national media in that time frame . Cowherd had them contending for a super bowl

[RiverDog]

Yeah good one . Check national media in that time frame . Cowherd had them contending for a super bowl

Yeah, well let's not break our arms patting ourselves on the back. We've both been wrong about a lot of things.

[Hawktawk]

Oh hell yeah . This year alone . Geno -right . Defense . Dead wrong . Tackles- right . Run game right and wrong . Record . Wrong how wrong to be determined .

Denver I had close . I went from thinking playoff team or close , 9 wins but the more I watched out of Denver in the media and heard Russ keep talking , skipping preseason I kept grading em down to where I thought we might get a better pick from them then our own . I think that was a rare position . I didn’t expect 4 wins .

It’s fun to look back but it’s a crapshoot

[Aseahawkfan]

I said Denver could tank and they did. I didn't see a strong team in Denver. Their head coach seemed like a cream puff with no plan for the team. I knew he would be fired this year.

[obiken]

I said Denver could tank and they did. I didn't see a strong team in Denver. Their head coach seemed like a cream puff with no plan for the team. I knew he would be fired this year.

Yeah I didnt see how but yeah you were right.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah I didnt see how but yeah you were right.

I'm a big believer in what John Schneider said when he was first hired: Head coach and the QB are the two most important parts of a good team. I believed it before John arrived and I still believe it.

I've watched teams like Houston and Jacksonville fail year after year after year picking high. They just never seem able to find a good head coach and QB at the same time. Hackett to me looked like that deer in the headlights head coach hoping his players greatness would carry him. It doesn't work.

We all seen what a good head coach looks like and they leave very little to chance. They simplify everything to make it work. They understand talent. When they come to the podium, they know what's wrong and how to fix it even if they don't have the talent to do so in a given year.

With Carroll I know he knows what he needs, but what I don't know is he will get what he needs when drafting or in free agency. I know if he can get the talent he needs, he can put together an amazing team that can win it all. I can't say that about every coach in the league or even half of them.

[NorthHawk]

The problem I see with Carroll is it will take more than just this year to really become a legitimate challenger. So the question becomes is he willing to go through that development process that might take
3 or 4 more years? So far we've seen a coach that thinks we're only a player or two from getting back to the SB - and they've given up a lot of draft capital in that effort, to a negative effect. It hasn't helped
the DL at all even though we've added FA's who only lasted 1 year each and the interior of the OL has not been right since our last SB appearance. We drafted a pure RG and promptly moved him to LG which
set his development back a year or maybe more. In all, they've never been able to put together a good OL. They've patchworked players in during the SB years but then tried throwing other teams backups in the middle
or moved bad draft picks of our own inside. In he meantime very good Centers after Centers were bypassed in the draft and only 1 good Guard was selected. That's 6 or 7 drafts in a row where the Center isn't
considered to be a real important piece of the puzzle.