What are you most looking forward to in the preseason

[NorthHawk]

They wasted Graham's talents. The one thing that made him special they limited on purpose to make him a "Complete TE".
Greg Olsen pretty much said they limited players with special skills when he was here and he was surprised that when options to use those abilities came up they were shot down because they didn't think
it was safe to do so. He alluded it to being a JV Offense in their philosophy.
That was when he was here, but we saw the lack of use of Graham from when he was in NO. Instead of taking some of the plays that were successful there and adapting them here, they limited him to
a few basic plays. That he set Seattle records even though he was pushed to do something he wasn't much good at says a lot about his abilities, but he could have done so much more if they had used
him properly.

[RiverDog]

They wasted Graham's talents. The one thing that made him special they limited on purpose to make him a "Complete TE".
Greg Olsen pretty much said they limited players with special skills when he was here and he was surprised that when options to use those abilities came up they were shot down because they didn't think
it was safe to do so. He alluded it to being a JV Offense in their philosophy.
That was when he was here, but we saw the lack of use of Graham from when he was in NO. Instead of taking some of the plays that were successful there and adapting them here, they limited him to
a few basic plays. That he set Seattle records even though he was pushed to do something he wasn't much good at says a lot about his abilities, but he could have done so much more if they had used
him properly.

Graham was never cut out for the type of tight end Pete Ball demanded. The thought was to give Russell a legitimate red zone target, but we had very few plays to take advantage of his size and ball skills. If memory serves, he scored just one red zone TD in his time with us. Instead, they tried to make him into something he was not nor did not like, an inline tight end that could be called upon to supplement pass protection and for run support. It was like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It just didn't work. Graham was a finesse player whereas Pete Ball required a tough as nails 6th offensive lineman like Zach Miller or Will Dissly. Graham was well known as a soft player. It was a horrible trade.

[NorthHawk]

At one point we had 3 TE's where the shortest was 6'6". Graham and I think Vanett(?) were two of them.
I said at the time we should have had a triple tower or at least a twin tower play where they stacked the TE's. This would have meant at least one of them would have a big advantage over
shorter DBs, but they never put that type of play into use, and I could never figure out why. But that's Peteball...

[Hawktawk]

Russ ball. Brees never had any trouble finding Jimmy Graham . The thing with Russ in his prime he threw to the open guy rather than force it to one guy and if I recall it was after Graham was hurt Russ went on a tear with Baldwin in the second half . That was then and this is now . Fant is a terror in the seam . Lock , smith , and Eason will jam it in there . They all have zippy zip on the ball .3 big strapping huge arm mobile guys fighting to lead my hawks . But now it’s the Jimmy G rumors for a guy with a noodle arm albeit accurate who had 3 more touchdowns than mayfield and 2 less picks . So whatever . Whoever starts will like Fant quite a bit . If it’s Jimmy G he seemed to be able to find Kittle OK.

[Aseahawkfan]

Jimmy Graham hasn't done much since he left Seattle. Even going to Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers throwing to him, he could not match the numbers he had with Drew Brees. He didn't even match the numbers he had with Russ throwing to him. Fact is Drew Brees and Sean Payton had a very high volume passing offense that used Jimmy Graham as well as he could be used. But most other offenses are not built to use a TE like Jimmy Graham like he was in New Orleans and no one wanted to pay him the WR money he was looking for. Jimmy Graham was a highly productive TE for Seattle that people wanted to see put up numbers like he did in New Orleans, even though New Orleans averaged a 100 or more attempts per season passing over Seattle. And he couldn't block well or be the tough TE that worked best in Pete's offense.

No team since Jimmy Graham left New Orleans has used Jimmy Graham like he was in New Orleans. Not Seattle. Not Green Bay. Not Chicago.

If people did not have preconceived expectations for Jimmy Graham coming into Seattle, people would have thought he was the best TE Seattle ever had. But New Orleans set the expectations prior to his arrival and he could not meet them in Pete's offense which was not a high volume passing attack, but a more balanced run-pass offense.

Graham is not what I consider a bad trade when I look at all the trades we've done. He was very productive. If not for the preconceived idea of what he would provide, he put up great numbers.

[obiken]

Jimmy Graham was a soft TE who was like a modified slot receiver, who could not block. We gave up an All Pro Center in Max Unger, sorry it was a bad trade.

[obiken]

Jimmy Graham was a soft TE who was like a modified slot receiver, who could not block. We gave up an All Pro Center in Max Unger, sorry it was a bad trade.

[Aseahawkfan]

Jimmy Graham was a soft TE who was like a modified slot receiver, who could not block. We gave up an All Pro Center in Max Unger, sorry it was a bad trade.

It was hardly Pete's worst trade or even close. Max Unger isn't even in the league any more as of 2018. He lasted 4 years past when we made the trade. We got three years out of Jimmy Graham. So not the worst trade ever made during the Carroll Era.

Not great, but not the worst. Pretty far from topping my list of Pete and John's bad trades.

[NorthHawk]

It was one of a number of trades where we traded good value for a player who wasn’t in the future plans or wore out his welcome of
his former team. There’s a pattern here with Harvin, Graham, and Adams.
It almost seems that if a team wants to trade a good player who has fallen out of favor, they convince Seattle to trade for him
and pay a high price on top.

Was the Graham trade the worst one? Probably not but we still haven’t found a solid starting Center and since that was 7 or 8 years ago.
it’s a sad statement about our FO talent maintenance that’s contributed to our slide into a rebuild.

[Aseahawkfan]

We all know Pete likes to try to rehab players. His most successful recovery was Marshawn Lynch, then he started getting cocky and tried for Harvin. Graham wasn't really that type of player. Graham was in a high volume passing offense that produced incredible numbers yearly with just about anyone. We don't run that type of offense. Pete thought Jimmy could become a better blocker, but he never wanted to be a blocker.

Even had we kept Unger, he wouldn't be in the league as of 2018. So we get a center for an extra year and lose the TE production for three years. It's hard for me to see that in too bad a light. I liked Unger. But he had foot issues and I'm not surprised he retired fairly early while very young for a football center.

[obiken]

It was hardly Pete's worst trade or even close. Max Unger isn't even in the league any more as of 2018. He lasted 4 years past when we made the trade. We got three years out of Jimmy Graham. So not the worst trade ever made during the Carroll Era.
Not great, but not the worst. Pretty far from topping my list of Pete and John's bad trades.

I never said it was the worst trade just a bad trade, if you dont think so we have to agree to disagree. The worst trade IMHO, was giving up 2 first rounders and a 3rd for Jamaal Adams, hands down. Its not not his fault that the Jets saw the Seahawks coming!

[Aseahawkfan]

I never said it was the worst trade just a bad trade, if you dont think so we have to agree to disagree. The worst trade IMHO, was giving up 2 first rounders and a 3rd for Jamaal Adams, hands down. Its not not his fault that the Jets saw the Seahawks coming!

That trade isn't looking great right now. But there is time to turn it around. I'm hoping the move to the 3-4 allows them to better utilize Adams talents.

[tarlhawk]

Why do we become fixated on "bad" trades...bad seasons? Whats done is done and we can speculate ad nauseum but without the "other side" of the story...our speculation is on the results not intention/motivation. No team gives up a very talented player they drafted/acquired unless there are underlying circumstances but even then ...the team "wanting" said player realizes it comes at a price. Frank Clark/Russell Wilson are and were Big Losses...but our GM got the best returns for their "market value". The fans from the teams that "coughed up" our asking price will no doubt grouse over whether it was a great deal (unlikely) or even a necessary deal since single trades seldom provide every fan's pursuit of the elusive Lombardi Trophy. Are we really surprised our own team has to pay a heavy price when taking disgruntled All Pros from other teams?

Russel is an example of a very talented generational QB but our favored sport is a team centric based entertainment and Tyler Lockett and Doug Baldwin before him helped/complemented Russel's skill for explosive plays. Tyler tempted RW to "go deep" often and on passes targeting Tyler he gave RW a very stellar QB rating with sure hands and an uncanny clutch catch ability. Russell will no doubt enjoy very good seasons with some of Denvers WR group...but what Tyler and RW enjoyed was a special "hookup".

There is some excitement/buzz concerning Bo Melton as a close facsimile of Doug Baldwin and untapped potential as a "slot" nightmare. Doug Baldwin (famously teamed with Jermaine Kearse as "pedestrian" receivers as a comparison... is a lofty compliment. Baldwin/Lockett shared one other intangible...excellent character and locker room presence...quiet respected leadership.

[RiverDog]

Jimmy Graham was a soft TE who was like a modified slot receiver, who could not block. We gave up an All Pro Center in Max Unger, sorry it was a bad trade.

It was hardly Pete's worst trade or even close. Max Unger isn't even in the league any more as of 2018. He lasted 4 years past when we made the trade. We got three years out of Jimmy Graham. So not the worst trade ever made during the Carroll Era.

Not great, but not the worst. Pretty far from topping my list of Pete and John's bad trades.

Whether or not it was the Pete's worst trade is debatable. We've had a couple of eye rollers, including the Harvin and Adams deals. But what is not debatable is that it was a bad trade. We gave up a Pro Bowl center at the height of his career without a plan to replace him other than yelling "next man up!" PLUS we gave up a #1 draft pick. That price made it almost impossible for us to at least get equal value from the deal.

There was nothing wrong with Graham's numbers. That part was fine. Heck, he made the Pro Bowl in two of his three seasons here. But pure stats and PB appearances don't tell the entire story, especially with the tight end position. Our FO essentially admitted that it was a bad trade as we chose to let Graham go after 3 seasons with no attempt made to bring him back despite him playing well enough to have made the Pro Bowl the previous season. If that's not an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.

[tarlhawk]

As soon as the "Grahm trade" was announced...the only "admission" of guilt was from JS along the lines of our team was not seeking to get Grahm...he was offered by the Saints GM when JS contacted him about a different issue...those type of quick reactions can lead to regrets akin to any knee jerk response to a "quick fix". We "let Grahm go" because RW and Jimmy didn't have that "magic" and RW as he grew in long pass accuracy...made it so that Jimmy couldn't be fully utilized in a TE role. TEs thrive in middle of the field seam routes/quick release into the flats...expecting TE to "go deep" requires quick "chip" blocks and instant release down field...this is not full use of a TE...and so he was let go with a "no return" designator.

[RiverDog]

We "let Grahm go" because RW and Jimmy didn't have that "magic" and RW as he grew in long pass accuracy...made it so that Jimmy couldn't be fully utilized in a TE role. TEs thrive in middle of the field seam routes/quick release into the flats...expecting TE to "go deep" requires quick "chip" blocks and instant release down field...this is not full use of a TE...and so he was let go with a "no return" designator.

Precisely, which is exactly why his stat line and record setting performance (most receptions/receiving yards as a Seahawk in just 3 seasons) is very misleading. For one reason or another, we did not utilize his skills and instead, forced him to play a particular type of style that he was neither comfortable with nor proficient at. Combine that with the price we paid for him and it was a bad trade.

[tarlhawk]

This is where "fit" comes into play...expecting Jimmy Grahm to "thrive" similar to his Saints days requires a similar scheme match and QB comfort...this reflects on coaching (and Offensive Coordinator in particular) if fan "expectations" are going to be met.

It almost "works" like a Baseball trade where the trade takes an all star NL power hitter and he gets traded to the AL with similar expectations...yet a "different" strike zone and steady diet of off-speed pitches and less fast ball action usually "dooms" the return to a NL hitters glory days.

Trades in all sports have hidden risks in the "details" of why a player "thrived" in one environment yet "flop" when given different circumstances. It's also a good reason to expect an equal opportunity of acquiring a skilled athlete who was under performing...and have him excel/thrive given "new digs". Coaching and fellow players are all part of the "fit" process.

[NorthHawk]

This is where "fit" comes into play...expecting Jimmy Grahm to "thrive" similar to his Saints days requires a similar scheme match and QB comfort...this reflects on coaching (and Offensive Coordinator in particular) if fan "expectations" are going to be met.

It almost "works" like a Baseball trade where the trade takes an all star NL power hitter and he gets traded to the AL with similar expectations...yet a "different" strike zone and steady diet of off-speed pitches and less fast ball action usually "dooms" the return to a NL hitters glory days.

Trades in all sports have hidden risks in the "details" of why a player "thrived" in one environment yet "flop" when given different circumstances. It's also a good reason to expect an equal opportunity of acquiring a skilled athlete who was under performing...and have him excel/thrive given "new digs". Coaching and fellow players are all part of the "fit" process.

The lack of fit is exactly what makes it a bad trade not to mention the trade compensation.
That we would end up giving away a Pro Bowl player for another who we didn't know how to use and weren't considering says in part that we are looked upon as patsies for teams that want to get rid of players.
It happened with the Harvin deal and the Adams trade. Three times is a pattern of the worst kind and greatly contributed to the downgrade of talent over the last 7 or 8 years.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah we were awful last 7 or 8 years with the second most wins in the decade . Jesus H . Nobody’s perfect . Harvin was a huge part of a Lombardi and shove it if you want to argue . Graham set team records and it’s not his fault Jesus Christ superstar couldn’t see him running wide open half the time . Adams ? Yeah but I can dig back 2 years when he had 9.5 sacks and not much complaining . He was playing very well when injured and if he’s healthy with the new scheme he will be a force . He will blow a couple snot bubbles out of your favorite Qb on the 12th.

Pete Carroll brought an era of pro sports to Seattle unlike anything we ever had . The lack of respect and appreciation, the discounting , underestimating this team of Pete and john , it’s a disgrace . I get crucified for daring to criticize the messiah taking his healing water to Denver and rag rag rag on our greatest coach ever is all you people do .

[NorthHawk]

He brought an era of success and should be congratulated on that but he also presided over a huge loss of talent to the point of being in a rebuild.
You have to look at both sides and it will be a struggle to accumulate the necessary level of talent if they keep making boneheaded trades for short term attempts at fixes like they did with
Harvin, Graham, Adams, Clowney, and Richardson. All players other teams didn't want that we traded the future for. Those trades of 4 1sts, 2 3rds and a second round picks for players that
we gave up were our future building. That's a lot of draft capital to give up for practically nothing in return.

[Aseahawkfan]

Why do we become fixated on "bad" trades...bad seasons? Whats done is done and we can speculate ad nauseum but without the "other side" of the story...our speculation is on the results not intention/motivation. No team gives up a very talented player they drafted/acquired unless there are underlying circumstances but even then ...the team "wanting" said player realizes it comes at a price. Frank Clark/Russell Wilson are and were Big Losses...but our GM got the best returns for their "market value". The fans from the teams that "coughed up" our asking price will no doubt grouse over whether it was a great deal (unlikely) or even a necessary deal since single trades seldom provide every fan's pursuit of the elusive Lombardi Trophy. Are we really surprised our own team has to pay a heavy price when taking disgruntled All Pros from other teams?

Russel is an example of a very talented generational QB but our favored sport is a team centric based entertainment and Tyler Lockett and Doug Baldwin before him helped/complemented Russel's skill for explosive plays. Tyler tempted RW to "go deep" often and on passes targeting Tyler he gave RW a very stellar QB rating with sure hands and an uncanny clutch catch ability. Russell will no doubt enjoy very good seasons with some of Denvers WR group...but what Tyler and RW enjoyed was a special "hookup".

There is some excitement/buzz concerning Bo Melton as a close facsimile of Doug Baldwin and untapped potential as a "slot" nightmare. Doug Baldwin (famously teamed with Jermaine Kearse as "pedestrian" receivers as a comparison... is a lofty compliment. Baldwin/Lockett shared one other intangible...excellent character and locker room presence...quiet respected leadership.

What part are you missing, man? Pete has been here 12 years now going on 13. Pete and John just traded the franchise QB and are trying a rebuild. Pete's changed coordinators multiple times now, made multiple trades many that didn't work out, and is at the point where people are no longer overlooking the moves he's made and is making. We're all wondering why exactly our team reached a point where we aren't competing in the playoffs any longer, didn't make the playoffs, and why has our roster fallen apart where we needed to trade the franchise QB?

Even if Pete isn't on the hot seat this year, he's real close. There's no more people to throw under the bus. No more coordinators to change. No more QB to blame. No more people to look at other than Pete as to whether we get back to being a legitimate playoff contender or continue to fall or get knocked off early.

The entire season and upcoming seasons are for many of us a determinant of whether or not we feel the team is going in the right direction based on results not feelings. If we don't see the results as in real competition in the playoffs and advancement, then we would just as soon take things in a new direction with the head coach and GM like Paul Allen usually does when he feels a coach and/or GM has reached the point where they've taken things as far as they can be taken and it's time to move in a new direction.

That's the point most of us are at. We want to compete for real again for a Super Bowl. We're just not feeling that team is going in the right direction to do that under Pete and John at the moment. They'll get a year or two pass if we see some real improvement from the rebuild. But we have to move on at some point if Pete and John are spent.

[tarlhawk]

He brought an era of success and should be congratulated on that but he also presided over a huge loss of talent to the point of being in a rebuild...That's a lot of draft capital to give up for practically nothing in return.

Your points are valid in retrospect...but seldom reflects the reality of the NFL. Was Pete the Head Coach and President of Football ops during this "huge" loss of talent? Answer is yes! ...how much is ineptness and how much is it the reality of a franchise struggling within the NFL established parameters for NFL team equity? Many compare the NFL draft to a "lottery" ...but its core is almost the opposite of a lottery goal.

A lottery can quickly give wealth to a select few who benefit from the temptation to throw hard earned money just for that "chance" of winning. Many of the winners were persistent "givers" who finally got their payoff...but an exponential number of participants never "win" and it is seldom viewed as an "addiction". The NFL "version" is not a "quick reward" but a patient opportunity to develop/motivate ...investing expensive resources (Coaches/facilities/contracts) to shape the competitive "edge" of a successful franchise.

Pete Carrols charisma/motivation is coupled with John Schneiders business acumen and negotiating skills...and the result is a team that won often and it goes "against the grain" of NFL marketing. Entertainment involving competition needs the "underdog" to be seen as being within striking distance of "winning the big one"...the "rules" in place are to deter the creation of dynasties or the dull effort of a perennial "loser". Teams are "encouraged" to cycle from losing yet being on the rise to winning often (but not too much) then repeat the cycle. These shaping "tools" are free agency compensation (extra draft picks as "reward" for letting a few of your stars play somewhere else) ...draft "positioning" ...priority of grabbing waiver claims...and of course to even out the advantage of good drafters-the salary cap.

Our young talented stars were quickly gathered after roster "churn" and losing records "gifted" us with high draft selections (similar to this last draft). Good scouting and great coaching molded the young talent into their best use of their gifted talent. Those stars created a winning firestorm of success when coupled with Pete's vision...but guess what? Those same stars got expensive 2nd and 3rd contracts...and their drafted future "replacements" were filtered by diminishing returns ...like gold panning a stream of lesser quality...or being limited to penny stocks versus blue chip investments. The NFL is competitive but some of that "equity" is forced...and as your talent pool shrinks...the impact of sudden injuries can greatly reduce your "winning margin". This "drama" is all played out with marketing at work to lure the fan into losing a proper perspective on what is happening "behind the curtain"...where is Toto when you need him?

[Aseahawkfan]

Whether or not it was the Pete's worst trade is debatable. We've had a couple of eye rollers, including the Harvin and Adams deals. But what is not debatable is that it was a bad trade. We gave up a Pro Bowl center at the height of his career without a plan to replace him other than yelling "next man up!" PLUS we gave up a #1 draft pick. That price made it almost impossible for us to at least get equal value from the deal.

There was nothing wrong with Graham's numbers. That part was fine. Heck, he made the Pro Bowl in two of his three seasons here. But pure stats and PB appearances don't tell the entire story, especially with the tight end position. Our FO essentially admitted that it was a bad trade as we chose to let Graham go after 3 seasons with no attempt made to bring him back despite him playing well enough to have made the Pro Bowl the previous season. If that's not an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.

Building Max Unger up as this amazing pro bowl center when he retired in 2018 ending his career and had injury issues compared to a TE who put up good production and added a lot of TD production is not what I see as even close to debatable as the worst trade. It's not even in the ballpark. I doubt you could make this argument with any objective analysis other than putting your hands over your ears and screaming it is true.

There was no admission of the trade being bad. Jimmy Graham wanted too much money. We let him walk. We've done that with a lot of our players whether we see them as done or not.

If the Graham trade were the worst of Pete's trades, we wouldn't even be having a discussion on Pete's trades. People are vastly over-rating Max Unger after the fact. I had zero trouble trading Unger myself. I remember his foot issues which is likely why he retired and he did not handle power rushers well. We did not see a drop off in O-line performance with his loss.

This trade is pretty simple. 3 years of a high quality TE versus 4 years of a high quality Center and a 1st round pick. That's a somewhat bad trade, but mostly because we threw in a 1st round pick. If we had traded Unger for Graham straight across, I wouldn't even put the trade on the radar for bad trades.

[Aseahawkfan]

The lack of fit is exactly what makes it a bad trade not to mention the trade compensation.
That we would end up giving away a Pro Bowl player for another who we didn't know how to use and weren't considering says in part that we are looked upon as patsies for teams that want to get rid of players.
It happened with the Harvin deal and the Adams trade. Three times is a pattern of the worst kind and greatly contributed to the downgrade of talent over the last 7 or 8 years.

The Harvin deal had nothing to do with not knowing how to use him. And everything to do with Harvin being a locker room cancer. We knew how to use Harvin. He sat on the bench most of the first year getting paid for doing nothing. He was the locker room cancer he was rumored to be. He didn't last because he was a prima donna who refused to play and didn't give one little bit of a care about being part of a "team." He was all about Harvin all the time. Pete couldn't coach him to be any other than the prima donna selfish locker room cancer he was wherever he went.

We used him quite fine. He would have been amazing asset had he not been a complete locker room cancer.

[Aseahawkfan]

Your points are valid in retrospect...but seldom reflects the reality of the NFL. Was Pete the Head Coach and President of Football ops during this "huge" loss of talent? Answer is yes! ...how much is ineptness and how much is it the reality of a franchise struggling within the NFL established parameters for NFL team equity? Many compare the NFL draft to a "lottery" ...but its core is almost the opposite of a lottery goal.

A lottery can quickly give wealth to a select few who benefit from the temptation to throw hard earned money just for that "chance" of winning. Many of the winners were persistent "givers" who finally got their payoff...but an exponential number of participants never "win" and it is seldom viewed as an "addiction". The NFL "version" is not a "quick reward" but a patient opportunity to develop/motivate ...investing expensive resources (Coaches/facilities/contracts) to shape the competitive "edge" of a successful franchise.

Pete Carrols charisma/motivation is coupled with John Schneiders business acumen and negotiating skills...and the result is a team that won often and it goes "against the grain" of NFL marketing. Entertainment involving competition needs the "underdog" to be seen as being within striking distance of "winning the big one"...the "rules" in place are to deter the creation of dynasties or the dull effort of a perennial "loser". Teams are "encouraged" to cycle from losing yet being on the rise to winning often (but not too much) then repeat the cycle. These shaping "tools" are free agency compensation (extra draft picks as "reward" for letting a few of your stars play somewhere else) ...draft "positioning" ...priority of grabbing waiver claims...and of course to even out the advantage of good drafters-the salary cap.

Our young talented stars were quickly gathered after roster "churn" and losing records "gifted" us with high draft selections (similar to this last draft). Good scouting and great coaching molded the young talent into their best use of their gifted talent. Those stars created a winning firestorm of success when coupled with Pete's vision...but guess what? Those same stars got expensive 2nd and 3rd contracts...and their drafted future "replacements" were filtered by diminishing returns ...like gold panning a stream of lesser quality...or being limited to penny stocks versus blue chip investments. The NFL is competitive but some of that "equity" is forced...and as your talent pool shrinks...the impact of sudden injuries can greatly reduce your "winning margin". This "drama" is all played out with marketing at work to lure the fan into losing a proper perspective on what is happening "behind the curtain"...where is Toto when you need him?

Everyone reaches the end of their time. Players and coaches and GMs. It is the NFL cycle. Are Pete and John at the end? Or can they get a rebuild going? We're gonna see.

[Hawktawk]

He brought an era of success and should be congratulated on that but he also presided over a huge loss of talent to the point of being in a rebuild.
You have to look at both sides and it will be a struggle to accumulate the necessary level of talent if they keep making boneheaded trades for short term attempts at fixes like they did with
Harvin, Graham, Adams, Clowney, and Richardson. All players other teams didn't want that we traded the future for. Those trades of 4 1sts, 2 3rds and a second round picks for players that
we gave up were our future building. That's a lot of draft capital to give up for practically nothing in return.

Harvin was the leading rusher in the super bowl , added a one handed catch on a third down and a house call that basically sealed the deal on a perfectly and I mean perfectly executed pooch kickoff that could easily have been 7 the other way with a mere mortal waiting for the ball . You say it was game over shut the hell up . Manning down 3 scores with 30 minutes to play ? Harvin was as important as Russ who should have been co mvp in that win . Graham played great , not his fault Russ doesn’t feature tight ends . Clowney was a very good disruptive player here . He didn’t get the sacks but he was in the backfield all game . Hindsight’s 20-20. Be honest what were you saying when the trades were made? I liked all other than Adams which I didn’t really know the guy . My kid is very savvy thought he was the missing piece . I feel like Pete and john have tried to compete every year . They have been unlucky . They have also had 1qb with his many unique strengths and weaknesses for 10 years who has never featured one player and didn’t change for Graham or Harvin . Maybe the FO should have remembered we won with Baldwin and Tate. I’ll still give them an A for effort .

[RiverDog]

The lack of fit is exactly what makes it a bad trade not to mention the trade compensation.
That we would end up giving away a Pro Bowl player for another who we didn't know how to use and weren't considering says in part that we are looked upon as patsies for teams that want to get rid of players.
It happened with the Harvin deal and the Adams trade. Three times is a pattern of the worst kind and greatly contributed to the downgrade of talent over the last 7 or 8 years.

The Harvin deal had nothing to do with not knowing how to use him. And everything to do with Harvin being a locker room cancer. We knew how to use Harvin. He sat on the bench most of the first year getting paid for doing nothing. He was the locker room cancer he was rumored to be. He didn't last because he was a prima donna who refused to play and didn't give one little bit of a care about being part of a "team." He was all about Harvin all the time. Pete couldn't coach him to be any other than the prima donna selfish locker room cancer he was wherever he went.

We used him quite fine. He would have been amazing asset had he not been a complete locker room cancer.

I'm with ASF on this one. Harvin and our utilization of him would have been just fine had it not been for his being a head case. He wasn't that good of a downfield receiver, but he was tremendous on bubble screens and jet sweeps, the objective being to get him in open space, and, of course, as a kick returner, without question the best broken-field runner we've ever had.

But a blind man could have seen the red flags. Harvin was a problem everywhere he went, from high school to college and with the pros, and it was pure arrogance for Pete to believe that he and he alone had such a persuasive personality that he could turn a wayward soul when multiple others couldn't. The split in the locker room, the one that led to the "Russell's not black enough" BS and the eventual demise of our budding dynasty can be traced back to the day we decided to trade him. Beast almost didn't board the team bus when the news of our dumping him was announced.

I don't care what he did in SB48. We were going to win that game no matter what Harvin or any other single player did. It was our day, and we weren't going to be denied. The Harvin trade was one of, if not the worst trade in franchise history.

[NorthHawk]

Harvin wasn't in the plans for the Vikings. Just like all of the rest and we gave up a huge amount.
We were in a position of strength when bargaining and ended up giving up much more than we should. A first round pick for a team wanting to rid themselves of him?
It happened with Graham and Adams, too.

[Hawktawk]

Harvin was the silver bullet to Manning’s heart to open the second half with a house call and possible 14 point swing . That after leading the team in rushing on 2 carries, generating a first down on all 3 offensive touches , some occuring in the critical early minutes of a 2-0 game . He was well over 100 total yards , 3 first downs and a house call on 4 touches . Lynch was held to 38 yards for the game on 14 touches with over 20 on one play . Those who say Harvin didn’t matter on a night we couldn’t run the ball with our bell cow sound like they have no clue how NFL ball works , especially facing Manning for the world championship .

Asea is completely right about Unger . Good but not great . In the aftermath of 48 Bill Polian was on NFL network talking about Wilson and his incredible performance behind a line that got beat all night .He said Unger had “ a big name” but pointed out he got abused by pot roast all night .
I had no problem with the trade , still don’t . If someone can point out the championships the saints won with Unger I’ll stand corrected .
Just heard enough of the bashing . Can the season start now please ?

[trents]

I'm most looking forward to having some sport to watch besides MLB and G league NBA. Football, you just can't beat it.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm most looking forward to having some sport to watch besides MLB and G league NBA. Football, you just can't beat it.

I'm actually enjoying following the Ms this year. The pitching is pretty good. Julio is the real deal. That dude is the best rook I've seen since Ken Griffey Jr or A-Rod in Seattle.

I am looking forward to the start of the season. See how these rooks are doing and the hopefully new defensive alignment.

[Aseahawkfan]

Harvin wasn't in the plans for the Vikings. Just like all of the rest and we gave up a huge amount.
We were in a position of strength when bargaining and ended up giving up much more than we should. A first round pick for a team wanting to rid themselves of him?
It happened with Graham and Adams, too.

What do you know about Nathaniel Hacket, the Broncos new head coach? He's supposed to be some kind of offensive guru? He doesn't sound like he has much experience running a team. Seems to be decent at offense.

Denver having a new coach to start the year may help us out with Denver doing badly if Hackett can't handle running a team.

[NorthHawk]

That's always the danger with a HC that's never been on this stage before.
But he's a creative coach that's going to do something different than his predecessor at Denver, for that we can be sure.
Most good coaches keep what worked well from the previous regime and add it to their playbook. It's true early in the year as teams settle in, but
I expect them to start out pretty good. The run game should be even better than last year with the addition of Wilson and him being a danger to
the Defense at any time throwing deep.

Their Defense has a lot of talent, but might take a step back because it was one of the better Defenses last year and sometimes change isn't as successful as they would hope.

[RiverDog]

I'm most looking forward to having some sport to watch besides MLB and G league NBA. Football, you just can't beat it.

I'm actually enjoying following the Ms this year. The pitching is pretty good. Julio is the real deal. That dude is the best rook I've seen since Ken Griffey Jr or A-Rod in Seattle.

I am looking forward to the start of the season. See how these rooks are doing and the hopefully new defensive alignment.

"J-Rod" is having a good year. So is Ty France, and Crawford isn't playing horribly. They've won 10 in a row, their longest winning streak in 20 years, so I guess I'd better start paying attention to them.

[trents]

Yes, I too have enjoyed watching the Mariners as of late. But the teams they have have been beating lately are not exactly the cream of the crop. They have a series coming up soon against the Astros. Let's see how they do then. Baseball is such a streaky game in all aspects. It can be maddening.