Watson/QB's

[NorthHawk]

That $19M would transfer to us if we took in Mayfield, barring any assumption of part of Mayfield's salary by the Browns to make the trade more palatable.
Still a scat show for certain.

[Hawktawk]

That $19M would transfer to us if we took in Mayfield, barring any assumption of part of Mayfield's salary by the Browns to make the trade more palatable.
Still a scat show for certain.

If Seattle winds up with baker I rather doubt it will involve 19 million or significant draft capital . It would have to involve significant concessions by Cleveland wouldn’t it? I guess we will see. Seattle and Carolina seem to be the only teams with significant interest . Should we get in a bidding war with Carolina for this guy ? I don’t know about that . The Mayfield jersey is gone from the team store but what was that to begin with ?

[c_hawkbob]

That $19M would transfer to us if we took in Mayfield, barring any assumption of part of Mayfield's salary by the Browns to make the trade more palatable.
Still a scat show for certain.

Reports are their current offer is to pay $10M of that.

[NorthHawk]

I think Pete will panic and trade one of our 2nd round picks for Mayfield and the Browns eating half of his salary.
It will be another example of us being taken in a trade for a player the other team doesn't want.

[Hawktawk]

That $19M would transfer to us if we took in Mayfield, barring any assumption of part of Mayfield's salary by the Browns to make the trade more palatable.
Still a scat show for certain.

Reports are their current offer is to pay $10M of that.[/quote]


I’ve heard that . It seems high . I guess the guy was a # 1 overall with one fairly successful season recently . None of the guys in the room can say they have had a successful season .

If the Hawks are willing to pony up 10 million they can’t be satisfied at the position . Or just compete forever and let the chips fall? . Could it be a Flynn situation where they give draft capital and money and then he gets beat out by someone in training camp or would a move like this mean he’s the presumptive starter coming into camp ? Let’s see .

[c_hawkbob]

To be clear, it's the Browns that are said to be willing to pay $10M of Mayfield's 2022 salary to facilitate a trade.

[Hawktawk]

Looks like the perv is getting a year . Oh to be Cleveland’s FO. Let’s see what that may do for Mayfield

[Aseahawkfan]

Man, Browns, why are they always so dumb.

[Hawktawk]

Man, Browns, why are they always so dumb.

Unreal . Most saw it coming too . I’m sure Mayfield is having a chuckle .

[RiverDog]

Looks like the perv is getting a year . Oh to be Cleveland’s FO. Let’s see what that may do for Mayfield

The hearings are still underway and might take a couple more days. The league is recommending suspending Watson for at least a year, and the union is saying he shouldn't be suspended at all. An arbitrator that has been jointly agreed upon by both the league and the union will make the call.

Apparently, the league has obtained some text messages that they claim corroborates the allegations.

And here's an interesting side note. Apparently, the arbitrator's decision isn't final:

If either the union or league appeals Robinson’s decision, Goodell or his designee “will issue a written decision that will constitute full, final and complete disposition of the dispute,” per terms of Article 46 in the collective bargaining agreement.

That means Goodell could ultimately overrule Robinson’s decision and give Watson one year or even an indefinite suspension due to the potential for more cases.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/28/nfl-pushi ... efinitely/

[RiverDog]

Man, Browns, why are they always so dumb.

Unreal . Most saw it coming too . I’m sure Mayfield is having a chuckle .

Yeah, rarely do we all agree on a subject in this forum, but this is one of those rare occurrences, both on our opinion of Watson and the Browns management.

I still say that the Browns will eventually kiss and make up with Mayfield.

[NorthHawk]

Making up with Mayfield might happen, but I get the impression that Mayfield is done with them.
If he does go back, he may get some concessions that would help him in the future. Something like signing
a 1 year extension but will be traded next year to a team he wants to go to and with the Browns assuming
his remaining salary. He could even stipulate that the team that trades for him pay a maximum of a late
round pick so as to not negatively impact his new team.
All this just to say he would have great leverage if they really wanted him to return…

[Aseahawkfan]

If the Seahawks had traded for Watson, I would have truly wanted Pete and John gone because that's just one of the dumbest trades a team can do. Everyone knew this guy was heading for a suspension. His allegations were just too much to overlook.

[RiverDog]

Making up with Mayfield might happen, but I get the impression that Mayfield is done with them.
If he does go back, he may get some concessions that would help him in the future. Something like signing
a 1 year extension but will be traded next year to a team he wants to go to and with the Browns assuming
his remaining salary. He could even stipulate that the team that trades for him pay a maximum of a late
round pick so as to not negatively impact his new team.
All this just to say he would have great leverage if they really wanted him to return…

I have to think that Mayfield would set aside his personal grudges against the Browns and play out the season. He's a free agent next year, and with the type of scratch they've been throwing at QB and at his age, he could land a monster contract next season if he plays well for the Browns in 2022. He'd be in a much better position to succeed with the Browns than he would if he went to either Seattle or Carolina. And at this point, it's also the smartest move for the Browns, too.

[Hawktawk]

Making up with Mayfield might happen, but I get the impression that Mayfield is done with them.
If he does go back, he may get some concessions that would help him in the future. Something like signing
a 1 year extension but will be traded next year to a team he wants to go to and with the Browns assuming
his remaining salary. He could even stipulate that the team that trades for him pay a maximum of a late
round pick so as to not negatively impact his new team.
All this just to say he would have great leverage if they really wanted him to return…

I have to think that Mayfield would set aside his personal grudges against the Browns and play out the season. He's a free agent next year, and with the type of scratch they've been throwing at QB and at his agen , he could land a monster contract next season if he plays well for the Browns in 2022. He'd be in a much better position to succeed with the Browns than he would if he went to either Seattle or Carolina. And at this point, it's also the smartest move for the Browns, too.

What has been confusing to me is how a guy went from 11-5 and a win at Heinz field for the first playoff win in 25 years or something to out of town after an injury plagued year. More Cleveland FO malfunction imo. If he comes here I’ll be his biggest fan unless he sucks then I won’t .
B

[RiverDog]

What has been confusing to me is how a guy went from 11-5 and a win at Heinz field for the first playoff win in 25 years or something to out of town after an injury plagued year. More Cleveland FO malfunction imo. If he comes here I’ll be his biggest fan unless he sucks then I won’t .
B

It's hard to tell how much of an effect Mayfield's injury had on his performance. It was his non-throwing shoulder, and he played almost the entire season with the injury. If 2021 was an exception, I could see attributing his poor play to his injury, but it wasn't an anomaly as his 2019 season was just as bad if not worse than 2021. He's been inconsistent throughout his career.

There's a report this morning that Mayfield has 'moved on', but he didn't rule out the possibility of returning to Cleveland, said that the Browns would have to be the ones to make the first move. That could happen later this week if the hammer falls on Watson like everyone expects that it will. The Browns see themselves as a contender, and I have a hard time believing that they're comfortable hitching their wagon to Jacoby Brissett.

The arbitrator in Watson's case, Sue L. Robinson, is obviously a female, a fact that doesn't exactly bode well for Watson. She's a retired judge, and judges like to look to precedents to guide them through their decision-making process, and there's several for her to look at, including Worthlessburger, whose alleged offenses pale in comparison to what Watson is being accused of. There's a rumor that she's already decided that the allegations are such that this suspension must be unprecedented. There's also the possibility of more accusations and witnesses coming forward. The NYT reported that Watson had visited over 60 massage parlors in 18 months, so they may not put a time limit on the suspension. My guess is that he gets an indefinite suspension with a minimum of one year.

[Hawktawk]

I believe the quote from mayfield was “ there would have to be some reaching out “. It’s the first indication I’ve heard of him being remotely willing to return .

[RiverDog]

I believe the quote from mayfield was “ there would have to be some reaching out “. It’s the first indication I’ve heard of him being remotely willing to return .

Here's the exact quote:

Quarterback Baker Mayfield didn't completely rule out the possibility of a reconciliation with the Cleveland Browns on Tuesday in the event that the NFL suspends his replacement, Deshaun Watson, for the entire 2022 season.

Mayfield, however, added that the Browns would have to be the ones to start that process, and that he's moved on and looking forward to joining his new team once he finally is traded.

"I think for that to happen there would have to be some reaching out," Mayfield told reporters during his youth football camp in Norman, Oklahoma. "But we're ready to move on, I think -- on both sides."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/341 ... dy-move-on

[NorthHawk]

PFT is discussing a 6-8 game suspension.
I don't know if the Browns are willing to take a rough start or gamble that their Defense is good enough to win early and Brisette is a good enough
backup for a half season to win a bunch of games before Watson returns. If they are successful, when Watson is cleared to play, and his start to
the year (game 9) isn't great, the whole season and this years hopes could collapse. But whenever he comes back, there's going to be a lot of
pressure on him to be an extraordinary QB by virtue of his contract.

[RiverDog]

PFT is discussing a 6-8 game suspension.

That's not quite the full story. What they said was that the league wants to avoid the appeals process and that 'if' the arbitrator comes back with a 6-8 week suspension, the league is likely to accept it. Previous indications are that the arbitrator feels that Watson's suspension must be unprecedented, and 6-8 weeks doesn't fit that bill. Zeke Elliot got 6 games for a single domestic violence accusation that didn't have any charges filed.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... ot-appeal/

[NorthHawk]

I took it to mean that 6-8 games is on the table.

From the article"

Thus, while Tuesday night’s leak of a supposed willingness by the league to not appeal the decision if it lands within the range of a six- or eight-game suspension could be aimed at nudging Judge Robinson from making an unappealable decision that no discipline should be imposed, it’s also possible the league realizes that overturning her decision to impose six or eight games without a good reason for doing so amounts to jumping with both feet into a bear trap of litigation.

[RiverDog]

I took it to mean that 6-8 games is on the table.

From the article"

Thus, while Tuesday night’s leak of a supposed willingness by the league to not appeal the decision if it lands within the range of a six- or eight-game suspension could be aimed at nudging Judge Robinson from making an unappealable decision that no discipline should be imposed, it’s also possible the league realizes that overturning her decision to impose six or eight games without a good reason for doing so amounts to jumping with both feet into a bear trap of litigation.

Then there's this:

The NFL insisted on an indefinite suspension while Deshaun Watson’s legal team argued there’s no basis for that punishment as both sides presented their cases in front of a retired judge in Delaware on Tuesday, two people in attendance told The Associated Press.

https://www.oregonlive.com/nfl/2022/06/ ... atson.html

I'm still saying that the arbitrator goes with an indefinite suspension.

We have to keep in mind that the accusations may not be over yet. There may be more women out there that have yet to come forward and/or more evidence that could surface that might make a difference in how they discipline Watson. Just two days ago, a woman filed a lawsuit against the Texans, claiming that they knew about, or should have known about, Watson's activities.

[NorthHawk]

He might get a 2 year suspension, we don't know but 6-8 games has been discussed because someone from the NFL leaked that tidbit of info.
Perhaps it was someone with connections to the Browns. I don't know if it was but maybe it was someone close to the Judge who is going to
make the ruling.
I would have thought 6-8 games would be too light, but these types of things often end up in surprising ways.

[RiverDog]

He might get a 2 year suspension, we don't know but 6-8 games has been discussed because someone from the NFL leaked that tidbit of info.
Perhaps it was someone with connections to the Browns. I don't know if it was but maybe it was someone close to the Judge who is going to
make the ruling.
I would have thought 6-8 games would be too light, but these types of things often end up in surprising ways.

Yeah, we'll see. IMO he should get a minimum of a year with an indefinite return. If I'm the league and arbitrator, my concern would be the possibility of more women coming forward. If we are to believe the NYT report, there could be a number of additional women that could file charges. Some could be legitimate, some could be gold diggers, but all of their claims would have to be investigated.

But like you say, it doesn't always go the way we expect it to.

[RiverDog]

It's sounding more and more like the league will insist on a minimum one year suspension:

Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer (h/t Pro Football Talk) reported Wednesday afternoon that a source says it is "not true that the NFL would likely abide by a 6- to 8-game suspension for Deshaun Watson if that’s what disciplinary officer Sue L. Robinson hands down."

The source added that the NFL "isn’t budging" on asking that Watson be suspended for the 2022 season, at a minimum, over much-publicized allegations of sexual misconduct during massage sessions.

For a piece published late Tuesday night, PFT's Mike Florio suggested the league would likely "initiate the appeal process" to commissioner Roger Goodell if Robinson's ruling included only a ban of six to eight contests.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/re ... ar-AAZ0qNN

[obiken]

Yeah, we'll see. IMO he should get a minimum of a year with an indefinite return. If I'm the league and arbitrator, my concern would be the possibility of more women coming forward. If we are to believe the NYT report, there could be a number of additional women that could file charges. Some could be legitimate, some could be gold diggers, but all of their claims would have to be investigated.
But like you say, it doesn't always go the way we expect it to.

I think a year River, but thats just me. Remember when I wanted to trade Wilson for Watson, you were against it, man I am glad you won that one.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, we'll see. IMO he should get a minimum of a year with an indefinite return. If I'm the league and arbitrator, my concern would be the possibility of more women coming forward. If we are to believe the NYT report, there could be a number of additional women that could file charges. Some could be legitimate, some could be gold diggers, but all of their claims would have to be investigated.
But like you say, it doesn't always go the way we expect it to.

I think a year River, but thats just me. Remember when I wanted to trade Wilson for Watson, you were against it, man I am glad you won that one.

Watson didn't play all last season, and it's a slam dunk that he's going to miss at least half of this season. Is he going to be able to maintain his football skills in what could be nearly a 3 year layoff?

Man, the Browns got harpooned on this one. This could sink their franchise for another 5 years. No wonder they're the Browns.

[NorthHawk]

To me it has "Owner pushed for this deal" written all over it.
Maybe I'm reading things that aren't there but most GMs would have been wary of making such a commitment to any player let alone one facing what might be a long suspension.

[RiverDog]

To me it has "Owner pushed for this deal" written all over it. Maybe I'm reading things that aren't there but most GMs would have been wary of making such a commitment to any player let alone one facing what might be a long suspension.

The whole thing is really bizarre. In the spring of 2021, the Browns pick up Mayfield's 5th year option at $19M, they head into the 2021 season as one of the favorites to win their division, they released rather than traded one of their biggest assets in OBJ in the middle of the season after a report surfaced from Beckham's old man citing problems with Mayfield, then they trade a slew of draft picks for Watson and sign him to the biggest contract in the history of the league while not being able to trade Mayfield.

[NorthHawk]

It is very strange, but if you look at it from a GM PoV, it’s not a deal that would give you a step up on any
competitor in future job opportunities. Teams will be wary of a GM who broke ranks with a fully guaranteed contract
and to add even more concern, did so to sign a player who may lose another season by being disciplined.
Haslam must have had his hands all over it and absolutely had to approve it as he had to pony up $250M in cash
to go into escrow just for Watson.

[Aseahawkfan]

Did they really guarantee his contract even if suspended? No one can be that stupid.

[NorthHawk]

Did they really guarantee his contract even if suspended? No one can be that stupid.

I believe so.

[RiverDog]

Did they really guarantee his contract even if suspended? No one can be that stupid.

I believe so.

The way they did it is that his salary is actually quite small, only $1M/season. Nearly all of the contract money is in his signing bonus, which isn't subject to forfeiture via suspension:

Whether Watson receives a yearlong suspension or is allowed to play football this season, the $44.965 million signing bonus in the fully guaranteed five-year contract worth $230 million he signed in March as a part of his trade from the Texans isn't in jeopardy because of the way the contract is structured. Watson's salary guarantees won't void in either case as well.

It's because of specific language in Watson's contract. The relevant language about the signing bonus is as follows.

"... a suspension by the NFL solely in connection with matters disclosed to Club in writing pursuant to Paragraph 42 which results in Player's unavailability to Club solely for games during the 2022 or 2023 NFL League Years shall not subject Player to forfeiture of Signing Bonus."

Suspensions are without pay, but that pertains to base salary. Since Watson's 2022 base salary is $1.035 million, he will lose $57,500 (or one-eighteenth of the $1.035 million) for each week he misses due to a suspension.

The pertinent language keeping Watson's guarantees from voiding is below.

"...it shall not constitute a failure or refusal to practice or play with the Club and Player shall not be in default if: ... (iii) Player is suspended solely in connection with matters disclosed to Club in writing pursuant to Paragraph 42 which results in Player's unavailability to Club solely for games during the 2022 or 2023 NFL League Years."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agen ... r%20season.

Another very bizarre situation with the Browns. They knew when they signed Watson that even though the grand jury decided not to indict Watson, that the NFL could suspend him via the personal conduct penalty and that he might not be available for quite some time, but they went ahead and signed him to this enormous contract with all these strings attached anyway. Dumb and dumber.

[RiverDog]

Watson's hearing concluded yesterday, but it might be another couple of weeks before the arbitrator announces her decision. She's requested briefs from both sides, not due until July 11th. They're hoping to have a decision by July 26th, the date on which veterans are to report to training camp.

https://www.nfl.com/news/browns-qb-desh ... -concludes

[NorthHawk]

[quote]
"...it shall not constitute a failure or refusal to practice or play with the Club and Player shall not be in default if: ... (iii) Player is suspended solely in connection with matters disclosed to Club in writing pursuant to Paragraph 42 which results in Player's unavailability to Club solely for games during the 2022 or 2023 NFL League Years."[/quote]

I read a comment from Florio at PFT where he said if another plaintiff that was not mentioned in writing comes forward and is credible, it could derail the guarantees and maybe the contract.
With him being a lawyer and me not, I would think he has a point as much of the legal system seems to pivot on what to me might be considered minutia.

[RiverDog]

"...it shall not constitute a failure or refusal to practice or play with the Club and Player shall not be in default if: ... (iii) Player is suspended solely in connection with matters disclosed to Club in writing pursuant to Paragraph 42 which results in Player's unavailability to Club solely for games during the 2022 or 2023 NFL League Years."

I read a comment from Florio at PFT where he said if another plaintiff that was not mentioned in writing comes forward and is credible, it could derail the guarantees and maybe the contract.
With him being a lawyer and me not, I would think he has a point as much of the legal system seems to pivot on what to me might be considered minutia.

Good point. With a reported 66 encounters in 17 months with various massage therapists, there's a good chance that more will come forward, which is part of the rationale for the league insisting on an indefinite suspension.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure they can issue an indefinite suspension because of something that MIGHT happen, but they have had indefinite suspensions before while the evidence or
investigation is being gathered.

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure they can issue an indefinite suspension because of something that MIGHT happen, but they have had indefinite suspensions before while the evidence or investigation is being gathered.

IMO the point here is that what is already known about Watson's behavior is enough to justify a year long suspension. Not putting an official end to it allows the league to re-visit the issue without having to go through the arbitration process again.

[NorthHawk]

This is an interesting article from PFT about the evidence the NFL used for the former Judge to rule on:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... un-watson/

But that apparently wasn’t the evidence the league presented. After interviewing only 12 of the women who have made allegations against Watson, the league presented evidence as to five persons who provided massages to Watson. The 24 lawsuits, the 66 or more strangers who were retained for private massages, and the allegation made in at least one of the lawsuits that the actual number exceeds 100 apparently weren’t part of the case against him.

The NFL’s case focused on five people. And, as PFT reported last week, that evidence included no proof of violence or threats or any type of physical conduct that would constitute actual assault.
The Personal Conduct Policy expressly prohibits “assault and/or battery, including sexual assault or other sex offenses.” If there’s no sexual assault, that specific provision of the policy hasn’t been violated.

Absent evidence of an actual sexual assault, the league’s case rests on two catch-all provisions at the bottom of a list of bullet points in the policy: (1) “conduct that poses a genuine danger to the safety and well-being of another person”; and (2) “conduct that undermines or puts at risk the integrity of the NFL, NFL clubs, or NFL personnel.” The argument would be that Watson’s habit of trying to steer massages toward sexual encounters falls within either or both of these prohibitions.

But that’s where the lack of discipline for Patriots owner Robert Kraft complicates the league’s case. If no action was taken against Kraft for having a massage that allegedly became a sexual encounter, how can the league discipline Watson for the same thing?

The difference, of course, is that the evidence against Watson ultimately centers on the fact that he allegedly tried, repeatedly, to make massages into sexual encounters. Kraft was never accused of doing that, by anyone.

There's more to it, but it's interesting how the NFL approached it and if you are cynical it would seem that they may have done so in order to get a lesser suspension.

[RiverDog]

Interesting article, but I wouldn't read anything into it one way or another.

I thought it amusing that the author would think that the league focusing on "only" 5 women was an indication that the evidence against Watson was weak. It would seem logical for a presentation to try to keep things as simple and understandable as possible rather than overwhelming it with information that is repetitive in nature, and weaning the number women they interviewed, 11, down to 5 of what was obviously the most persuasive and credible testimony to present to the judge seems like a very logical way of going about their presentation. After all, if establishing the fact that Watson forced 5 massage sessions into sexual encounters isn't enough to establish a pattern of sexual harassment/assault, will adding another 6 less compelling examples to the pallet make any difference?

I also noted the distinction they mentioned as to the difference between Robert Kraft's one documented massage session vs. Watson's multiple encounters that the union has attempted to show as an inconsistency in policy application, that Kraft's encounter was completely consensual with no accusations of forced sex as there is in Watson's. Except as it relates to the catch all phrase of "conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the National Football League", Kraft did not violate the personal conduct policy whereas the accusations in Watson's case, if true, are a clear, specific breach.

It's going to be another week or so before we hear anything. There's going to be a lot of pressure on the league to abide by the judge's decision. This is the first case to be tried by the new agreement of using an agreed upon arbitrator and although her ruling isn't binding, the league would like not to undermine it.