KJ and the bad play call

[Stream Hawk]

Not to stir this up again, but….Anyone else catch any of KJ on Salk the other day? I caught a tidbit where he said they never could get over the pass in 49. Sounds like that has been the problem forever.

Seriously it was one play that just won’t go away. For some.

As a fan I always thought our defense had as much as fault as Russ, Pete, Bevell, Kearse, and Lockette.

[RiverDog]

Not to stir this up again, but….Anyone else see any of KJ on Salk the other day? I caught a tidbit where he said they never could get over the pass in 49. Sounds like that was the problem forever. It was one play that won’t go away. For some. As a fan I always thought our defense had as much as fault as Russ, Pete, Bevell, Kearse, and Lockette

No, I didn't see it. But yea, that play is IMO what ripped the heart and soul out of the defense even though they were as much to blame for the loss as was the offense, unable to protect a two score lead in the 4th quarter. I said when it happened, that keeping the team together after that loss would be a bigger challenge for Pete than building it in the first place.

[Hawktawk]

[list=][/list]

]Not to stir this up again, but….Anyone else see any of KJ on Salk the other day? I caught a tidbit where he said they never could get over the pass in 49. Sounds like that was the problem forever. It was one play that won’t go away. For some. As a fan I always thought our defense had as much as fault as Russ, Pete, Bevell, Kearse, and Lockette

No, I didn't see it. But yea, that play is IMO what ripped the heart and soul out of the defense even though they were as much to blame for the loss as was the offense, unable to protect a two score lead in the 4th quarter. I said when it happened, that keeping the team together after that loss would be a bigger challenge for Pete than building it in the first place.

We all whistled in the graveyard for years after but hindsight is 2020. Of course the pick killed the dynasty . 3 wild card wins since and now pffft.

As for blame ? It’s all around . But Kam was playing on a severely injured knee. Both Sherman and Et were playing hurt bad , lanes career was destroyed by roid freak Edelman . Avril was knocked out by an illegal head butt at the half . But over 4 quarters Seattle had 4 scoring drives and a bunch of 3 and outs and punts . Wasted a Wagner pick by not scoring off the next possession , a critical inability to move the ball consistently . Lynch was stopped twice in short yardage ending 2 of those drives . Maybe that affected the thought process on the goal line later .I re watched the game recently .

And in the end , bad play call , terrible considering the personnel grouping . But like Huard said if coach sends in a skunk it’s QBs job to make sure it doesn’t stink . Soft high throw too far out in front and didn’t even identify Butlers position on the field pre snap based on his own comments “ where did he come from “ I hate losing “ captured on sound FX.


Whatever Russels career ever winds up looking like in the end it would have been so much more . I had forgiven and defended for 8 years till the monkey business recently but it’s all fair game now. I’ve got an employee I recently learned has hated Wilson since that play . I didn’t even know he was a hawks fan .

Russ helped make us but he had a huge role in breaking us too . A little hard to listen to him pop off about how many more championships he wants to win but can’t do it here . Could have had 2 for sure buddy .

[RiverDog]

The point of the OP is that the defense blamed the offense for that loss and didn't accept their role in it. It's not the offenses' fault that a lot of our defenders were injured. The fact is that we were up by 10 points with 12 minutes left in the game before the Pats went on their first of two 4th quarter TD drives that put us behind by 4 points and put the offense in a desperation mode of needing a TD. The defense allowed the Pats to convert on over 50% of their 3rd down attempts that contributed to our losing the TOP battle despite our out-rushing them by a 3-1 margin. Up until the last minute, the offense did their job, Lynch had over 100 yards rushing, they didn't put the defense in a bad position by turning the ball over, and we scored 24 points, enough to win about 80% of our games and almost exactly what we averaged (24.6) during the regular season that year. That's classic Pete Ball.

As far as the play itself, we've talked about it more than we have any single play in team history so there's no need to rehash it. I think that the consensus is that it was a combination of a bad play call, poor execution on Russell's part, and a great play by the Pat's defense to stuff Kearse that allowed Butler to jump the route.

It was a team loss with a lot of blame to spread around, including the offense, the defense, and our coaching staff, but IMO the defense shamed themselves by blaming it all on the offense, contributing to the divide that eventually tore apart what could have been one of the biggest dynasties of the current century, right up there with the Pats.

[Hawktawk]

I thought KJ said nobody could get over it , not necessarily who to point fingers at . It broke the team spiritually .

But any pick that doesn’t bounce off a receiver or have him fall down before it’s on the QB . That’s when it went from brink of Lombardi and dawn of destiny to loss. The Wilson apologists can’t have it both ways . If he’s this god like franchise qb he can’t do that right there . In hindsight I’m not as forgiving .

[Hawktawk]

The point of the OP is that the defense blamed the offense for that loss and didn't accept their role in it. It's not the offenses' fault that a lot of our defenders were injured. The fact is that we were up by 10 points with 12 minutes left in the game before the Pats went on their first of two 4th quarter TD drives that put us behind by 4 points and put the offense in a desperation mode of needing a TD. The defense allowed the Pats to convert on over 50% of their 3rd down attempts that contributed to our losing the TOP battle despite our out-rushing them by a 3-1 margin. Up until the last minute, the offense did their job, Lynch had over 100 yards rushing, they didn't put the defense in a bad position by turning the ball over, and we scored 24 points, enough to win about 80% of our games and almost exactly what we averaged (24.6) during the regular season that year. That's classic Pete Ball.

As far as the play itself, we've talked about it more than we have any single play in team history so there's no need to rehash it. I think that the consensus is that it was a combination of a bad play call, poor execution on Russell's part, and a great play by the Pat's defense to stuff Kearse that allowed Butler to jump the route.

It was a team loss with a lot of blame to spread around, including the offense, the defense, and our coaching staff, but IMO the defense shamed themselves by blaming it all on the offense, contributing to the divide that eventually tore apart what could have been one of the biggest dynasties of the current century, right up there with the Pats.

I don’t blame a defense that was beat up and a shell of itself near as much as I blame the pick . And again the same issyes moving the ball throughout the game . The defense probably hadn’t recovered from carrying Russell in the NFC title game . We lost because the QB got picked on the goal line .

[NorthHawk]

It was a stupid, stupid play call. One of the worst in NFL history considering the defensive formation, situation at the goal line, and personnel on the field.
The blame lies squarely with the coaching staff.

[RiverDog]

It was a stupid, stupid play call. One of the worst in NFL history considering the defensive formation, situation at the goal line, and personnel on the field. The blame lies squarely with the coaching staff.

While I agree with you about the play call, IMO the loss goes deeper than the coaching staff. As I stated earlier, 24 points was almost exactly what we averaged during the regular season and enough to win the majority of our games. For whatever reason, whether it be injuries or playing against the GOAT, the defense didn't bring their 'A' game, giving up nearly twice their season average of points. It shouldn't have come down to that last play call.

[tarlhawk]

Its kinda sad that in a game decided by many factors and evident of players having played their heart out...that we feel the need to blame what was clear misfortune. Any play called is never a forgone conclusion or why would we stay "tuned in". Credit the opponents detailed defensive recognition of a play we seldom used...the real emotional pain was how it stole the outcome just as we all anticipated a huge cheer and sigh of relief. We hate the roller coaster ride of strong emotions...the euphoria of snatching victory back silenced by the agony of failed execution.

We earned the right to even have the opportunity to send in a "bad call" but isolating a single play when its a game of 4 quarters and numerous stellar plays by both teams should've created the momentum and impetus to be driven in 2015 to "correct" the history lesson but the emotional scarring caused by blame can undo the best of human endeavor. What was the defensive play that allowed the Patriots to go ahead?

Blame never corrects failure and normally stirs up the temptation to "just quit" when blame is focused on a "few" and not shouldered by the responsibility of the team as a whole. In the grand scheme of things the realization of the difficulty to just reach the Super Bowl should be a source of pride that we did it in back to back seasons...the euphoria of 2013 and the agony of 2014...no shame and no blame.

[RiverDog]

Its kinda sad that in a game decided by many factors and evident of players having played their heart out...that we feel the need to blame what was clear misfortune. Any play called is never a forgone conclusion or why would we stay "tuned in". Credit the opponents detailed defensive recognition of a play we seldom used...the real emotional pain was how it stole the outcome just as we all anticipated a huge cheer and sigh of relief. We hate the roller coaster ride of strong emotions...the euphoria of snatching victory back silenced by the agony of failed execution.

We earned the right to even have the opportunity to send in a "bad call" but isolating a single play when its a game of 4 quarters and numerous stellar plays by both teams should've created the momentum and impetus to be driven in 2015 to "correct" the history lesson but the emotional scarring caused by blame can undo the best of human endeavor. What was the defensive play that allowed the Patriots to go ahead?

Blame never corrects failure and normally stirs up the temptation to "just quit" when blame is focused on a "few" and not shouldered by the responsibility of the team as a whole. In the grand scheme of things the realization of the difficulty to just reach the Super Bowl should be a source of pride that we did it in back to back seasons...the euphoria of 2013 and the agony of 2014...no shame and no blame.

Well, that's how it should have been, but it didn't happen that way, and there's more to blame for it than the defense. There were complaints about Pete's over protecting Russell, calling out other player's mistakes in front of the team yet not saying anything about Russell's errors. It was about that time when the defense started the "Russell isn't black enough" charge, that he was too cozy with management. Russell's personality didn't help matters as his bubbly, sometimes corny everything is rainbows and unicorns persona played into that narrative regardless of whether the accusations had any merit. It was a shameful end to the best Seahawk team in our franchise's history.

[NorthHawk]

While I agree with you about the play call, IMO the loss goes deeper than the coaching staff. As I stated earlier, 24 points was almost exactly what we averaged during the regular season and enough to win the majority of our games. For whatever reason, whether it be injuries or playing against the GOAT, the defense didn't bring their 'A' game, giving up nearly twice their season average of points. It shouldn't have come down to that last play call.

It's a valid point that it should never have come down to that play, but it did and the coaching decision made a mess of that opportunity.
It often comes down to a few plays in a game that's the difference, and in this case the coaching decision made the worst of it instead of making the best of it.

[RiverDog]

While I agree with you about the play call, IMO the loss goes deeper than the coaching staff. As I stated earlier, 24 points was almost exactly what we averaged during the regular season and enough to win the majority of our games. For whatever reason, whether it be injuries or playing against the GOAT, the defense didn't bring their 'A' game, giving up nearly twice their season average of points. It shouldn't have come down to that last play call.

It's a valid point that it should never have come down to that play, but it did and the coaching decision made a mess of that opportunity. It often comes down to a few plays in a game that's the difference, and in this case the coaching decision made the worst of it instead of making the best of it.

True, but it doesn't address the point made in the OP, which was that the defense blamed the offense for the loss.

IMO, and I said at the time, that Pete should have fired Bevell the week after the game. There are some decisions that are so disastrous and so consequential that they can't be excused or given a 2nd chance, and that was one of them. You don't throw a quick, short pass over the middle from the one yard line into the teeth of a congested, goal line defense. It's asking for trouble, a batted pass or deflection. It would have sent a signal to the defense and the rest of the team that he holds everyone accountable.

I got a kick out of some of the responses to the Rams' winning TD in the Super Bowl last February, noting how Stafford hit Kupp twice, once at the back of the end zone and the other on the sideline, both from inside the 5 and with the ball being placed where only the receiver could catch it, how we hoped that Pete was taking notes.

[NorthHawk]

Had they selected a better play and scored, the Defense wouldn't have blamed anyone, so it came down to the Offense winning the game or not.
It's a circular argument, though.

Regarding firing Bevell, I think you advocated for that right away and I was a little hesitant. But loyalty is one of Pete's qualities both good and bad.

We should have run a similar play at that time. Roll Russ to the wide side of the field and put pressure on the Defense where Russ would have the
option of run it himself, pass it to a WR, or throw it away. At the time he was the most dangerous QB with the ball in his hands and that play took
away the uniqueness of his abilities.
In the back of my mind I wonder if it was one of Carroll's brain farts with time management and maybe panicking.

[mykc14]

Had they selected a better play and scored, the Defense wouldn't have blamed anyone, so it came down to the Offense winning the game or not.
It's a circular argument, though.

And if the offense scored too early and Brady, who had been shredding the defense, drove down the field and scored the offense wouldn't have b1tched like babies about the Defense letting everybody down, or worrying about who got the MVP or whatever. They wouldn't have questioned anybody's blackness or any of that non-sense. An event like that exposes major cracks and character flaws- of which many key members of our defense had. It might have been what made them great but it's also what helped lead to their down-fall. [/quote]

[Hawktawk]

The defense was trashed with injuries including Edelman intentionally destroying lanes knee leaving him being covered by guys who could not cover him . The pick by Wilson which he never totally took blame for , Pete saying it was on him , the trip to Hawaii . As River shared a while back in the SI article it did split the team . How could it not ? I think Russ was never the same despite the LOB remaining intact a couple more years . Star Wars stats till the divisional.

It was a terrible call but the throw was worse . It was an awful loss that killed a dynasty in the making . I’ve wondered if it was the genesis of Russ and Pete drifting apart .

[Stream Hawk]

I thought KJ said nobody could get over it , not necessarily who to point fingers at . It broke the team spiritually .

But any pick that doesn’t bounce off a receiver or have him fall down before it’s on the QB . That’s when it went from brink of Lombardi and dawn of destiny to loss. The Wilson apologists can’t have it both ways . If he’s this god like franchise qb he can’t do that right there . In hindsight I’m not as forgiving .

Yeah KJ seemed to indicate defense-wide resentment that had to do with passing at all. We all heard Sherman mock throwing on the goal line years after that. It was Pete’s call to pass.

I just can’t believe professionals can’t accept any responsibility for blowing a 2 td lead. I thought it as over after Brady’s last TD. The defense looked broken. Hell, it took a miracle bailout catch to even get in a position to score there.

[RiverDog]

Yeah KJ seemed to indicate defense-wide resentment that had to do with passing at all. We all heard Sherman mock throwing on the goal line years after that. It was Pete’s call to pass.

I just can’t believe professionals can’t accept any responsibility for blowing a 2 td lead. I thought it as over after Brady’s last TD. The defense looked broken. Hell, it took a miracle bailout catch to even get in a position to score there.

It wasn't Pete's call to pass. They even have a sideline audio of it, with Bevell sending in our goal line passing personnel grouping immediately following the 2nd down play then telling Pete "We're passing" and Pete acknowledging it by nodding his head. There's not a lot of time for equivocation in those situations, as they barely have enough time to get the right personnel in the game, huddle up and get the play called, and get lined up on the LOS with about 8-10 seconds on the play clock so the offense has enough time to make their reads. No matter what team is in that situation, it's strictly the play caller's decision unless they use a timeout.

That's why I always cringe at these conspiracy theories, that Pete didn't want Beast to score the game winning TD as he would have likely gotten the MVP, and who knows what Lynch would have done on the award stand, jump off it while grabbing his balls or something, and rather gave the opportunity to Russell, for had he completed that pass for the winning TD, he would have been MVP. There wasn't enough time to take in and process all those whacky thoughts.

[RiverDog]

The defense was trashed with injuries including Edelman intentionally destroying lanes knee leaving him being covered by guys who could not cover him . The pick by Wilson which he never totally took blame for , Pete saying it was on him , the trip to Hawaii . As River shared a while back in the SI article it did split the team . How could it not ? I think Russ was never the same despite the LOB remaining intact a couple more years . Star Wars stats till the divisional.

It was a terrible call but the throw was worse . It was an awful loss that killed a dynasty in the making . I’ve wondered if it was the genesis of Russ and Pete drifting apart .

It wasn't a 'terrible' pass. The ball was on target. What happened is that for whatever reason, Wilson didn't see Butler jump the route. In retrospect, Russell should have anticipated Butler jumping that route when he saw Browner stuff Kearse, but in his defense, it was a pretty bang-bang play that called for him to catch the snap then throw it immediately, so I fault the play call more than I do the pass. But as Brock Huard said, if the coach sends in a skunk, it's up to the QB not to let it stink. It was 3rd down, and Russell should have made damn sure that Lockette was clear before he cut loose. He didn't have to make that play. If Lockette wasn't open, he either hits Beast in the flat or throws it into the cheap seats and lives for another down.

[TriCitySam]

It will be debated forever, and I understand the call. They were in a goal line stand, and with 1 time out, if you throw a pass you get 3 cracks. If you run, you get 2 cracks at it. My thoughts:

* Generally it's a high percentage play
* Lynch has fumbled at the goal line more than once, so disaster still could have struck
* Both Lockett and Kearse could have been much more aggressive in their execution. If Kearse is not so weak, Butler never makes that play.
* RW pass, while not perfect, wasn't bad. If he was aware of Butler, a back shoulder throw seals him out.
* Butler jumped it, a great play by him
* Hindsight is 20-20

[Hawktawk]

It wasn't a 'terrible' pass. The ball was on target. What happened is that for whatever reason, Wilson didn't see Butler jump the route. In retrospect, Russell should have anticipated Butler jumping that route when he saw Browner stuff Kearse, but in his defense, it was a pretty bang-bang play that called for him to catch the snap then throw it immediately, so I fault the play call more than I do the pass. But as Brock Huard said, if the coach sends in a skunk, it's up to the QB not to let it stink. It was 3rd down, and Russell should have made damn sure that Lockette was clear before he cut loose. He didn't have to make that play. If Lockette wasn't open, he either hits Beast in the flat or throws it into the cheap seats and lives for another down.

Beast was open in the flat . I had to be on sports talk with Heaverlo the next morning . I watched the play all night . I saw bootleg fan footage from the back of the end zone showing butler running towards the spot before the snap . It was a tough morning with the only calls being from Pats fans piling it on .

But River it was a terrible throw . The ball is supposed to be low and right on the receivers body , not over his head and a yard lead . Hass was a master of that throw .

By his his own words “ where did he come from “ ?
after the play makes clear he didn’t see Butler in his pre snap read . He didn’t identify the interceptor pre snap.

He admitted it . All that said , with the bad call , the bad grouping , the brilliance of Belichick if the balls on the man’s body it’s a touchdown or pass interference . Chris Collinswirth “ he led him too much ! I just can’t believe the call .! ”


Both are true but a bad soft inaccurate aimed like a dart instead of ripped ball was the cherry on top . In the end it’s on Russel . I forgave till I started hearing about needing more championships somewhere else . Now not so much .

[RiverDog]

It will be debated forever, and I understand the call. They were in a goal line stand, and with 1 time out, if you throw a pass you get 3 cracks. If you run, you get 2 cracks at it. My thoughts:

* Generally it's a high percentage play

I don't like throwing over the middle in a compressed field like that. It's too easy for a defender to get a paw up and deflect a pass, and considering Russell's height, he would be more subject to a batted ball than a taller QB.

* Lynch has fumbled at the goal line more than once, so disaster still could have struck

It certainly could have struck, but it wouldn't have been as risky as the chosen play.

* Both Lockett and Kearse could have been much more aggressive in their execution. If Kearse is not so weak, Butler never makes that play.

That was the 'e' Lockette, Ricardo. I corrected HT on his spelling, so I have to be fair.

Lockette could have been more aggressive going after the ball, but I can't say that I can fault Kearse. Browner was a much bigger, more physical player. With very little territory to defend, he's going to win that matchup more times than not.

* RW pass, while not perfect, wasn't bad. If he was aware of Butler, a back shoulder throw seals him out.

I don't think back shoulder was an option. It was such a short pass with a defender trailing, so the ball had to be thrown on a line, and even if the defender hadn't been on his heels, there wasn't much time for the receiver to turn and make a back shoulder catch. It could have been thrown a little lower and forced Lockette to go down for it, but you're right, it wasn't poorly thrown.

* Butler jumped it, a great play by him

Agreed. As soon as Butler saw Browner stuff Kearse, he knew he could release and jump the route. Had Browner not made that play, Butler would have had to stay home and cover Kearse if he broke in on a slant.

* Hindsight is 20-20

Ain't that the truth.

[mykc14]

Beast was open in the flat . I had to be on sports talk with Heaverlo the next morning . I watched the play all night . I saw bootleg fan footage from the back of the end zone showing butler running towards the spot before the snap . It was a tough morning with the only calls being from Pats fans piling it on .

But River it was a terrible throw . The ball is supposed to be low and right on the receivers body , not over his head and a yard lead . Hass was a master of that throw .

By his his own words “ where did he come from “ ?
after the play makes clear he didn’t see Butler in his pre snap read . He didn’t identify the interceptor pre snap.

He admitted it . All that said , with the bad call , the bad grouping , the brilliance of Belichick if the balls on the man’s body it’s a touchdown or pass interference . Chris Collinswirth “ he led him too much ! I just can’t believe the call .! ”


Both are true but a bad soft inaccurate aimed like a dart instead of ripped ball was the cherry on top . In the end it’s on Russel . I forgave till I started hearing about needing more championships somewhere else . Now not so much .

It is not all on RW. It was a not a great throw. It wasn't over his head. Malcom Butler didn't break before the ball was snapped, he broke as soon as Lockette started his slant. You are clearly mis-remembering things. RW said "where did he come from" because Butler was blocked from his view when he threw it. It was an ALL-TIME GREAT PLAY by Butler. This was a one-read and throw type of play (which is why it was called) After he got the look he wanted he was never going to hold the ball and look for Beast in the flats. Could you imagine if he took a sack in that situation??? Your memory and understanding of the play/situation is not correct.

We can argue the merits of calling a pass in that situation. We can argue the play call. We can argue the personnel. There is an argument to be made for all of that, but this play was not on RW. His mistake was that his throw wasn't as low as it should have been and it should have been more towards the body, but even with that being said Lockette isn't running as hard to the spot as he should. If he runs hard the reality is that the ball is just a bit high. If anybody want's to relive that horrible moment to remember for themselves what happened, here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7rPIg7ZNQ8

I'm not watching it again. I suggest you do Hawktalk because you sir are mistaken on a lot of key points. That play has been a huge frustraion for me. It is the only Hawks game I REFUSE to re-watch. In my house my kids know the only words you can't say are- "intercepted at the goal line by Butler." I can't imagine what it did to those guys who actually played/coached in the game.

[RiverDog]

But River it was a terrible throw . The ball is supposed to be low and right on the receivers body , not over his head and a yard lead . Hass was a master of that throw.

A catchable pass can't be called a terrible throw, and it wasn't over his head, it was around his shoulder area. I agree that Russell could have thrown it a tad closer to Lockette's body and/or a foot or so lower. But had Butler not intervened, it would have been a TD, so you can't blame the throw as much as the decision to throw. And Lockette wasn't very aggressive in going after it.

Mykc is exactly right. It's not all on Russell. Your slip is showing again.

[RiverDog]

It is not all on RW. It was a not a great throw. It wasn't over his head. Malcom Butler didn't break before the ball was snapped, he broke as soon as Lockette started his slant. You are clearly mis-remembering things. RW said "where did he come from" because Butler was blocked from his view when he threw it. It was an ALL-TIME GREAT PLAY by Butler. This was a one-read and throw type of play (which is why it was called) After he got the look he wanted he was never going to hold the ball and look for Beast in the flats. Could you imagine if he took a sack in that situation??? Your memory and understanding of the play/situation is not correct.

We can argue the merits of calling a pass in that situation. We can argue the play call. We can argue the personnel. There is an argument to be made for all of that, but this play was not on RW. His mistake was that his throw wasn't as low as it should have been and it should have been more towards the body, but even with that being said Lockette isn't running as hard to the spot as he should. If he runs hard the reality is that the ball is just a bit high. If anybody want's to relive that horrible moment to remember for themselves what happened, here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7rPIg7ZNQ8

I'm not watching it again. I suggest you do Hawktalk because you sir are mistaken on a lot of key points. That play has been a huge frustraion for me. It is the only Hawks game I REFUSE to re-watch. In my house my kids know the only words you can't say are- "intercepted at the goal line by Butler." I can't imagine what it did to those guys who actually played/coached in the game.

I agree with everything except for Russell's decision to throw. Yeah, he didn't see Butler break for the ball, but in that situation, with a congested field like that and with no real responsibility for the safety, he has to be aware that it can be jumped and make damn sure he's in the clear before he cuts loose. It was 3rd down, so he didn't have to make that play if he felt uncomfortable with it. IMO Russell got too focused in on his receiver and wasn't aware that Butler was lurking. But that's easy for me to say sitting here in my recliner.

You're exactly right that it is not all on Russell, not by a long shot. Credit Butler and Browner.

[Aseahawkfan]

Russell was a third year QB doing what he was told. That throw was placed right. But the pick failed to pull Browner from his position which would have blocked the other DB from jumping the route. On top of that Lockett wasn't at the right location in the route.

I don't blame Russ or Lockett because they were executing what was called to the letter because both had absolute trust in the OC and HC. I blame Bevell because he had expectations from the personnel they had not exhibited before calling a high risk-low success play. I keep hearing that we had done that play before and we had, but never in the end zone and never with a goal line compressed defense. That was a bunk excuse. We had run that play in an open field where Lockett had room to run with a secondary that was pulled back covering other route runners so Lockett had room to move in the middle. Not a compressed field in the goal line area. Completely stupid play call.

Third year QBs not named Peyton Manning do what they're told, especially on a Pete Carroll team. They don't get to make reads and do something different in a situation like that.

[RiverDog]

Russell was a third year QB doing what he was told. That throw was placed right. But the pick failed to pull Browner from his position which would have blocked the other DB from jumping the route. On top of that Lockett wasn't at the right location in the route.

I don't blame Russ or Lockett because they were executing what was called to the letter because both had absolute trust in the OC and HC. I blame Bevell because he had expectations from the personnel they had not exhibited before calling a high risk-low success play. I keep hearing that we had done that play before and we had, but never in the end zone and never with a goal line compressed defense. That was a bunk excuse. We had run that play in an open field where Lockett had room to run with a secondary that was pulled back covering other route runners so Lockett had room to move in the middle. Not a compressed field in the goal line area. Completely stupid play call.

Third year QBs not named Peyton Manning do what they're told, especially on a Pete Carroll team. They don't get to make reads and do something different in a situation like that.

I have a tendency to agree with that take more than I disagree. I still think that Russell had a little more flexibility in that situation than you've indicated as most smart coaches will recognize that a quarterback needs to be able to adjust to the unexpected and Pete is a smart coach, but neither of us know exactly how Russell was coached.

Everything else is spot on, though. It was a stupid play call. As I said before, I hate throwing over the middle like that in a congested field, it's just asking for trouble. Run a play that gives Russell a run-pass option, or at least a 2nd look if his primary target is covered, let him throw it away and live for another down.

[Hawktawk]

Russell was a third year QB doing what he was told. That throw was placed right. But the pick failed to pull Browner from his position which would have blocked the other DB from jumping the route. On top of that Lockett wasn't at the right location in the route.

I don't blame Russ or Lockett because they were executing what was called to the letter because both had absolute trust in the OC and HC. I blame Bevell because he had expectations from the personnel they had not exhibited before calling a high risk-low success play. I keep hearing that we had done that play before and we had, but never in the end zone and never with a goal line compressed defense. That was a bunk excuse. We had run that play in an open field where Lockett had room to run with a secondary that was pulled back covering other route runners so Lockett had room to move in the middle. Not a compressed field in the goal line area. Completely stupid play call.

Third year QBs not named Peyton Manning do what they're told, especially on a Pete Carroll team. They don't get to make reads and do something different in a situation like that.

Russel had played 48 regular season games with a record of 36 and 12. He had 5 playoff wins including a Lombardi I’ve said to this day he should have at least received a co mvp nod.

If Chris Collinswirth says he let him too much he did . He led him too much . You don’t do that with 20 seconds left . No need for back shoulder , Sop Is low and on the body period . And again nobody wants to talk about the fact that Wilson admits reading the field incorrectly captured on sound Fx. He’s the qb . He threw it where someone else could get it . It’s on everyone but the most in the guy who didn’t read the field and threw a bad ball.

[Hawktawk]

[*]

Beast was open in the flat . I had to be on sports talk with Heaverlo the next morning . I watched the play all night . I saw bootleg fan footage from the back of the end zone showing butler running towards the spot before the snap . It was a tough morning with the only calls being from Pats fans piling it on .

But River it was a terrible throw . The ball is supposed to be low and right on the receivers body , not over his head and a yard lead . Hass was a master of that throw .

By his his own words “ where did he come from “ ?
after the play makes clear he didn’t see Butler in his pre snap read . He didn’t identify the interceptor pre snap.

He admitted it . All that said , with the bad call , the bad grouping , the brilliance of Belichick if the balls on the man’s body it’s a touchdown or pass interference . Chris Collinswirth “ he led him too much ! I just can’t believe the call .! ”


Both are true but a bad soft inaccurate aimed like a dart instead of ripped ball was the cherry on top . In the end it’s on Russel . I forgave till I started hearing about needing more championships somewhere else . Now not so much .

It is not all on RW. It was a not a great throw. It wasn't over his head. Malcom Butler didn't break before the ball was snapped, he broke as soon as Lockette started his slant. You are clearly mis-remembering things. RW said "where did he come from" because Butler was blocked from his view when he threw it. It was an ALL-TIME GREAT PLAY by Butler. This was a one-read and throw type of play (which is why it was called) After he got the look he wanted he was never going to hold the ball and look for Beast in the flats. Could you imagine if he took a sack in that situation??? Your memory and understanding of the play/situation is not correct.

We can argue the merits of calling a pass in that situation. We can argue the play call. We can argue the personnel. There is an argument to be made for all of that, but this play was not on RW. His mistake was that his throw wasn't as low as it should have been and it should have been more towards the body, but even with that being said Lockette isn't running as hard to the spot as he should. If he runs hard the reality is that the ball is just a bit high. If anybody want's to relive that horrible moment to remember for themselves what happened, here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7rPIg7ZNQ8

I'm not watching it again. I suggest you do Hawktalk because you sir are mistaken on a lot of key points. That play has been a huge frustraion for me. It is the only Hawks game I REFUSE to re-watch. In my house my kids know the only words you can't say are- "intercepted at the goal line by Butler." I can't imagine what it did to those guys who actually played/coached in the game.

I’m mistaken on one point . Butler jumps after the snap . I also re lived the obvious hold on Kearse by browner but of course we should have expected it . As for the throw sure if it’s a short cross it’s a catchable ball Lockette likely catches . But on the 1 it’s a terrible throw obviously as we saw . Hass used to throw receivers right under the carpet in those situations , I remember him sidearming one to K rob to beat the rams where he literally slid in the end zone on his stomach . Bad throw and if you want to give him a pass for not even identifying Butler pre snap go for it . I won’t .

[Aseahawkfan]

I have a tendency to agree with that take more than I disagree. I still think that Russell had a little more flexibility in that situation than you've indicated as most smart coaches will recognize that a quarterback needs to be able to adjust to the unexpected and Pete is a smart coach, but neither of us know exactly how Russell was coached.

Everything else is spot on, though. It was a stupid play call. As I said before, I hate throwing over the middle like that in a congested field, it's just asking for trouble. Run a play that gives Russell a run-pass option, or at least a 2nd look if his primary target is covered, let him throw it away and live for another down.

Maybe. I'm not sure though. It wasn't a read option play. It was a one read and throw no time to think play. Jermain Kearse was supposed to set a pick on Brandon Browner to obstruct Butler from being able to jump the route. The pick failed miserably as would be expected for anyone trying to pick the most physically strong CB in the NFL. We had all watched Brandon Browner manhandling receivers and doing crazy physical stuff on special teams, but apparently Bevell had missed those highlights when he asked Kearse to set a pick against the most physical corner in the NFL. The failure of that pick created the opportunity for Butler to jump the route. Butler made the read and jumped the ball. Lockett not being known for being a precise or aggressive route runner with good hands was beat to the point attack and Butler made a great catch. Russell put the ball where it should have been, a little high and Butler made a great play on a stupid play call.

To me the entire play was dead as soon as Bevell looked at Jermaine Kearse and said, "I want to set a pick on Brandon Browner." I still to this day wonder why Pete Carroll who knew how physically strong and big Brandon Browner was oked that play call. Brandon Browner was a 6'4" 220 lb. DB known for his physical style of play. Kearse was a 6'1" 180 to 190 lb. receiver who was a 4th or 5th string receiver on most teams. I just don't get it.

Pete Carroll is a control freak like Bill B when it comes to how he wants the game played. I've heard Brady say he does what Bill B wants done. He did that for years. Peyton Manning is one of the only QBs I've ever heard of who had a lot of latitude in how he managed the offense. I just don't see Russ doing anything other than executing play with full trust in the coaches at that point in his career. Now I think he would do things differently, but not then.

[Aseahawkfan]

I’m mistaken on one point . Butler jumps after the snap . I also re lived the obvious hold on Kearse by browner but of course we should have expected it . As for the throw sure if it’s a short cross it’s a catchable ball Lockette likely catches . But on the 1 it’s a terrible throw obviously as we saw . Hass used to throw receivers right under the carpet in those situations , I remember him sidearming one to K rob to beat the rams where he literally slid in the end zone on his stomach . Bad throw and if you want to give him a pass for not even identifying Butler pre snap go for it . I won’t .

Kearse was sent to pick Browner. It was part of the play. He ran into Browner. Browner wasn't going to let him or anyone move him off his position. When the receiver runs into the CB, the CB does not have to move. That's why a hold should not have been called. You don't pick Brandon Browner. The guy is way too big and physical.

Bevell discussed the play clearly.

Lockett doesn't know how to run that kind of route in compressed field. It's why a 6'2" receiver with elite 4.2 40 speed wasn't a starting receiver in the NFL and had 2 TDs both on 50 yard go routes in his entire career.

Russell threw the ball where it was supposed to go to a highly inexperienced 4th or 5th string receiver who had been cut earlier in the year and brought back after he was cut again more known for playing special teams than receiver. Lockett should not have been expected to run that route. He got beat to the point of attack and the interception was made.

Russ did his best to make his receivers look good. He made Chris Matthews, some guy who wasn't even in the league, look like a Super Bowl MVP catching 2 TDs. He tried to set up Lockett for a win, but Lockett could not make that route work.

How quickly you forget our receiver situation going into that Super Bowl. A receiver situation most QBs never have to deal with. Not Brady nor Peyton ever had to deal with all their receivers being gone except for Doug Baldwin to the point we were relying on No Name Chriss Matthews and Special Team Specialist Ricardo Lockett as primary options in a goal line situation in the Super Bowl.

You are such a forgetful fan as to realizing how amazing it was that Russell Wilson even kept the offense moving with Doug Baldwin as his only remaining starting receiver and his other main receiver some guy we signed off the street 4 weeks before the Super Bowl.

These were our receivers for the 2nd Super Bowl:

Doug Baldwin
Chris Matthews (signed for 3 regular season games and the playoffs)
Ricardo Lockette
Jermaine Kearse
Bryan Walters

Compared to Tom Brady's receivers:
Julian Edelman
Rob Gronkowski
Danny Amendola
Brandon LaFell

In the 1st Super Bowl Russell had:

Percy Harvin (who you seem to love)
Doug Baldwin
Jermaine Kearse
Ricardo Lockette
Golden Tate
Luke Wilson
Zach Miller


As far as I'm concerned, it's a miracle Russell was even able to take that crop of receivers and score enough points to have a chance to win a Super Bowl. But that's what an elite QB like Russell Wilson can do, take a group of receivers, half of them shouldn't even be in the Super Bowl, and make them look good. If Bevell hadn't started to believe that he could do whatever he wanted and Russell would make it work like he threw 2 TDs to no name Chris Matthews, then we'd likely have a second Lombardi right now.

But that's life. Russ did his best with what he had. In the end, even he couldn't overcome a terrible play call and an amazing play by the DB.

You can believe what you want. I'm not buying what you're selling. I remember more than just that play like Russ having to work with a depleted WR group with no TE in the biggest game of the year and making it work.

[RiverDog]

Maybe. I'm not sure though. It wasn't a read option play. It was a one read and throw no time to think play. Jermain Kearse was supposed to set a pick on Brandon Browner to obstruct Butler from being able to jump the route. The pick failed miserably as would be expected for anyone trying to pick the most physically strong CB in the NFL. We had all watched Brandon Browner manhandling receivers and doing crazy physical stuff on special teams, but apparently Bevell had missed those highlights when he asked Kearse to set a pick against the most physical corner in the NFL. The failure of that pick created the opportunity for Butler to jump the route. Butler made the read and jumped the ball. Lockett not being known for being a precise or aggressive route runner with good hands was beat to the point attack and Butler made a great catch. Russell put the ball where it should have been, a little high and Butler made a great play on a stupid play call.

To me the entire play was dead as soon as Bevell looked at Jermaine Kearse and said, "I want to set a pick on Brandon Browner." I still to this day wonder why Pete Carroll who knew how physically strong and big Brandon Browner was oked that play call. Brandon Browner was a 6'4" 220 lb. DB known for his physical style of play. Kearse was a 6'1" 180 to 190 lb. receiver who was a 4th or 5th string receiver on most teams. I just don't get it.

Pete Carroll is a control freak like Bill B when it comes to how he wants the game played. I've heard Brady say he does what Bill B wants done. He did that for years. Peyton Manning is one of the only QBs I've ever heard of who had a lot of latitude in how he managed the offense. I just don't see Russ doing anything other than executing play with full trust in the coaches at that point in his career. Now I think he would do things differently, but not then.

I realize that it wasn't a read option, but when Kearse got stuffed by Browner, which was the key to the success or failure of the play, Russell should have been looking for a safety coming down to jump the route. But I don't think that Russell ever saw Kearse/Browner even though he was turned that direction. I think that he locked onto the primary receiver and was going to Lockette no matter what. Part of that might have been coaching, that it was drilled into Russell that it's a bang-bang play and that the ball has to come out immediately. That's what I don't know. All I know is that in a situation like that where we had a down to burn, there was no need to force a play that wasn't there.

That's how I understood the play as Brock Huard explained it, which is what prompted him to say that it was a bad play call, but that if the bench sends in a skunk of a play, it's up to the QB to not let it stink.

[Hawktawk]

It was second down . Look it’s beat to death . I thought the speculation about trying to get Russ the MVP was stupid . He had played great , the final drive was amazing along with Kearse who has made some of the biggest catches in Seahawks history Asea . The play was ridiculous . People forget Lynch split wide left beating the corner on a big play to start the doomed drive m
Having recently watched the game we were inconsistent in short yardage a few times. A pass on second down isn’t a terrible call . But nobody is getting a free release off Browner in that situation . Nobody . But it’s ok to say Russ is great , had a great career here , did awesome record breaking stuff , got us a super bowl win and a yard from 2 but in the end his throw sealed our fate . We’re not being honest if we can’t accept that. Russ had all sorts of options . On second down throw it away or go for it with a timeout left . Change the play as lynch said he asked the team if he should after it came in . Lynch described the mood as “ confusion”. And he definitely locked on stared at him right before the snap .

It sucks for the guys including Russell , the fans and organization but I’ll take the good over the bad . It was a great time to be a fan .

[RiverDog]

It was second down . Look it’s beat to death . I thought the speculation about trying to get Russ the MVP was stupid . He had played great , the final drive was amazing along with Kearse who has made some of the biggest catches in Seahawks history Asea . The play was ridiculous . People forget Lynch split wide left beating the corner on a big play to start the doomed drive m
Having recently watched the game we were inconsistent in short yardage a few times. A pass on second down isn’t a terrible call . But nobody is getting a free release off Browner in that situation . Nobody . But it’s ok to say Russ is great , had a great career here , did awesome record breaking stuff , got us a super bowl win and a yard from 2 but in the end his throw sealed our fate . We’re not being honest if we can’t accept that. Russ had all sorts of options . On second down throw it away or go for it with a timeout left . Change the play as lynch said he asked the team if he should after it came in . Lynch described the mood as “ confusion”. And he definitely locked on stared at him right before the snap .

It sucks for the guys including Russell , the fans and organization but I’ll take the good over the bad . It was a great time to be a fan .

I stand corrected on the down. I knew that it wasn't do or die, that we had at least one play to burn, and a timeout.

I never heard the story about Lynch wanting to change the play. It doesn't make sense. In that situation, it was a virtual fire drill, getting all the personnel right and the play called. There wasn't time for him or anyone else to debate the play call if they wanted to get to the LOS with 10 seconds or so on the play clock. Russell would have been preoccupied reading the call from the sidelines, looking it up on his wrist, then getting it communicated to everyone. It wasn't confusion, we were changing personnel. It always looks like mass chaos, and always will, so I call BS.

Agreed about no one beating Browner on that play, which is one of the reasons why we shouldn't have gone to that side of the field unless it was some sort of timing route to the corner of the end zone. They put Browner on Chris Mathews in the 2nd half after Mathews was having a career day and virtually took him out of the game. IMO Browner should have been the MVP.

Our disagreement has been in how you characterized Russell's throw, ie 'terrible', 'over his head'. It fits a pattern that you've been following for the past few months that everyone in the forum has picked up on. You've developed such a strong, obvious bias against Russell Wilson, one that isn't completely without an understandable reason, and it's affected your recall of the most momentous play in team history, a play that every Seahawk fan has had to watch over and over again for the past 10 years.

[Aseahawkfan]

I realize that it wasn't a read option, but when Kearse got stuffed by Browner, which was the key to the success or failure of the play, Russell should have been looking for a safety coming down to jump the route. But I don't think that Russell ever saw Kearse/Browner even though he was turned that direction. I think that he locked onto the primary receiver and was going to Lockette no matter what. Part of that might have been coaching, that it was drilled into Russell that it's a bang-bang play and that the ball has to come out immediately. That's what I don't know. All I know is that in a situation like that where we had a down to burn, there was no need to force a play that wasn't there.

That's how I understood the play as Brock Huard explained it, which is what prompted him to say that it was a bad play call, but that if the bench sends in a skunk of a play, it's up to the QB to not let it stink.

A 3rd year QB who was with coaches he won a Super Bowl with and made him a starter when no one else believed he could make it in NFL was likely was focused on executing the play as called. Russell is a hyper focused person and in a situation like that his main concern at the time was making sure the ball was thrown to the spot practiced. I think he hit the right spot, but Lockette wasn't there to grab it. I'll never blame Lockette because we had all watched him for years and new he was not a precise route runner with good hands which is what that play called for. I can't blame Russ because he's a third year QB working with a HC and OC who developed him and he won a Super Bowl with.

So I can only look at Bevell, go by the play design I've read, and conclude Bevell called a terrible play the personnel could not execute and the NE DB made an amazing play. Thus the OC and HC put their people in position to fail when they did not need to.

And it doesn't matter if Lynch wanted to change the play. He's a RB. They don't get to change plays. Never seen a RB change a play. Young QBs execute what the OC and HC tell them regardless of what anyone else on the team says. If Lynch wanted to change the play, he should have called TO and had an argument with Bevell and Pete. Russ does what he's told.

[RiverDog]

A 3rd year QB who was with coaches he won a Super Bowl with and made him a starter when no one else believed he could make it in NFL was likely was focused on executing the play as called. Russell is a hyper focused person and in a situation like that his main concern at the time was making sure the ball was thrown to the spot practiced. I think he hit the right spot, but Lockette wasn't there to grab it. I'll never blame Lockette because we had all watched him for years and new he was not a precise route runner with good hands which is what that play called for. I can't blame Russ because he's a third year QB working with a HC and OC who developed him and he won a Super Bowl with.

So I can only look at Bevell, go by the play design I've read, and conclude Bevell called a terrible play the personnel could not execute and the NE DB made an amazing play. Thus the OC and HC put their people in position to fail when they did not need to.

And it doesn't matter if Lynch wanted to change the play. He's a RB. They don't get to change plays. Never seen a RB change a play. Young QBs execute what the OC and HC tell them regardless of what anyone else on the team says. If Lynch wanted to change the play, he should have called TO and had an argument with Bevell and Pete. Russ does what he's told.

I'm not sure if I buy into the 3rd year QB thing. Rookies and even 2nd year QB's, yes, but by the time they get through their third season like Russell had, they've pretty well adapted to the league and their offense. Most 3rd year QB's have a considerable amount of autonomy. Justin Hebert, for example, will be entering his 3rd year, and I expect him to have quite a bit of authority when it comes to changing plays and adjusting a game plan. I also don't think that Russell hit the optimum ball placement with his pass. It should have been a little lower and closer to Lockette's body, forcing him to go down for the ball instead of leaving it up where a defender could intervene. But that's just the opinion of a beer drinking Monday morning armchair quarterback.

I don't buy the story about Beast wanting to change the play. He might have thought it, perhaps even said it out loud, but no one would have paid any attention to him, nor should they have.

[Hawktawk]

I saw lynch interview with some hip hop guy . If I said it I read it or rather watched it . I don’t make stuff up when I read or watch something .

That’s when he made his comments about the mood in the huddle after the play call . Lynch called it “ confusion “ . He said “Russ asked if he should change the play “ so if he’s not just lying you have to buy it . Lynch strikes me as brutally honest . the interview was vulgar and funny as an interview where the topic came up. It’s worth a look . Google can likely find it . It’s just another window into the forensic of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory

It’s just another reminder how bad the call was if someone as confident and clutch as 2014 Russ was confused . I . I never said it’s all on Russ , just his throw was the end . Bad call , bad grouping , bad decision by Russ to run a play he didn’t believe in . Missed seeing Butler at all or seeing the breakdown of the rub route by Kearse and so he threw the ball thinking it’s clear sailing . As far in front as it was it may have gone off Lockette anyway and had the same result . Man was fully extended reaching for it . We can’t change it now. Asea makes a great point that it wasn’t just the defense beat up . Great QBs which Russ surely was don’t always succeed . They have thrown away super bowls , just none in that shocking fashion that I recall .

On to the next great Hawks team . GO HAWKS !!!!

[RiverDog]

I saw lynch interview with some hip hop guy . If I said it I read it or rather watched it . I don’t make stuff up when I read or watch something .

That’s when he made his comments about the mood in the huddle after the play call . Lynch called it “ confusion “ . He said “Russ asked if he should change the play “ so if he’s not just lying you have to buy it . Lynch strikes me as brutally honest . the interview was vulgar and funny as an interview where the topic came up. It’s worth a look . Google can likely find it . It’s just another window into the forensic of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory

It’s just another reminder how bad the call was if someone as confident and clutch as 2014 Russ was confused . I . I never said it’s all on Russ , just his throw was the end . Bad call , bad grouping , bad decision by Russ to run a play he didn’t believe in . Missed seeing Butler at all or seeing the breakdown of the rub route by Kearse and so he threw the ball thinking it’s clear sailing . As far in front as it was it may have gone off Lockette anyway and had the same result . Man was fully extended reaching for it . We can’t change it now. Asea makes a great point that it wasn’t just the defense beat up . Great QBs which Russ surely was don’t always succeed . They have thrown away super bowls , just none in that shocking fashion that I recall .

On to the next great Hawks team . GO HAWKS !!!!

I didn't accuse you of making things up or Lynch of lying. What I said was that I don't buy the story. It doesn't fit the facts surrounding the circumstances of the 20 or 25 seconds the team had between the end of the previous play and when they had to break the huddle and get to the LOS. There's just too many other things that has to be communicated during that very short period of time for Lynch's account as you described it to be true.

Our memories are funny things. There are some things that we remember as clearly and accurately as if they happened seconds ago, yet there are other things that where, after being influenced by external factors, like the truly endless debate about that play call, when our memories are altered without our being aware of it. Memories can fade, causing us to forget about certain details, unintentionally leave out certain facts. People can be mistaken without intentionally being dishonest. Memories alone aren't a reliable means to come to a firm conclusion, especially when you start marking the elapsed time in multiple years. That's one of the reasons why we have a statute of limitations on certain crimes, because memories can't be trusted to last that long.

I have never heard anything that would indicate that Russell didn't believe in that play call and until now, never heard anyone say that the team was confused. I'm not buying what you're selling.

[NorthHawk]

Regardless, that play should never have been an option.

[c_hawkbob]

Worst. Call. Ever.

[RiverDog]

Worst. Call. Ever.

And the most talked about, at least for us Seahawk fans. It's something that we'll take to our graves with us.