Russell Wilson trade results thus far

[Hawktawk]

Frankly I don’t remember a tight end dominating in Seattle going back to Holmgren . Graham was the best being thrown to by Russell Wilson as he set team records . Fant is beastly . Far bigger than Graham physically and probably faster at 4.5. He may be the salve on the wound if DK leaves. As has been mentioned he’s caught 74 balls from Lock which is fascinating a huge fast guy like that doesn’t have to get to know the QB assuming Lock wins it which many are speculating in the sports media . Both he and Geno are best in this Waldron offense . I just think there’s more pieces than most . If we have DK we’re a potentially scary offense but there’s still pieces if he isn’t . Not enough though . No DK I’m at 8-9 rebuild time .

[RiverDog]

Frankly I don’t remember a tight end dominating in Seattle going back to Holmgren . Graham was the best being thrown to by Russell Wilson as he set team records . Fant is beastly . Far bigger than Graham physically and probably faster at 4.5. He may be the salve on the wound if DK leaves. As has been mentioned he’s caught 74 balls from Lock which is fascinating a huge fast guy like that doesn’t have to get to know the QB assuming Lock wins it which many are speculating in the sports media . Both he and Geno are best in this Waldron offense . I just think there’s more pieces than most . If we have DK we’re a potentially scary offense but there’s still pieces if he isn’t . Not enough though . No DK I’m at 8-9 rebuild time .

That's because Pete Ball calls for a blocking tight end. Zach Miller was the best TE we've had for our scheme during the current Pete Carroll era as he was both a very good blocker and a reliable receiver with great hands. Problem with him was injuries.

I'll be interested to see how Fant is at blocking. With the new blood at both offensive tackles, it's very likely that we'll be asking the tight end to block in a lot of situations, both passing and running.

[Hawktawk]

I think Uncle Will is our Zach Miller . Fant is certainly big enough to block . I never saw Graham flatten secondary people without slowing down . Fant is an exciting prospect

[RiverDog]

I think Uncle Will is our Zach Miller . Fant is certainly big enough to block . I never saw Graham flatten secondary people without slowing down . Fant is an exciting prospect

Yeah, I like Uncle Will, too, even though he's been snake bit by injuries. You're right, he's the closest to the type of tight end demanded by Pete Ball that we've had in recent years. He's like a 6th offensive lineman.

Having the size is one thing. Graham had plenty of size to be a good blocker, but he was a soft player, didn't like blocking. But I do agree with you that Fant is an exciting prospect.

[NorthHawk]

I would expect Dissly to be used as a supplemental blocker while Cross and Lucas develop. Neither are experienced enough or good enough at this point
to be left on their own.

[Hawktawk]

I would expect Dissly to be used as a supplemental blocker while Cross and Lucas develop. Neither are experienced enough or good enough at this point
to be left on their own.

You don’t know that at all. It may be true but Jesus it’s depressing reading all the doom and gloom. I prefer to believe they are going to be adequate out of the gate and be here 10 years , maybe part of one of the better lines Pete has had .

[NorthHawk]

History shows us that even the best OTs struggle mightily their first year. Add in limited
practice time restricted by the CBA and coming from non Pro Offenses in college and there’s
every reason to believe they will both struggle early and very little reason to think they won’t.

[Hawktawk]

History shows us that even the best OTs struggle mightily their first year. Add in limited
practice time restricted by the CBA and coming from non Pro Offenses in college and there’s
every reason to believe they will both struggle early and very little reason to think they won’t.

You can’t coach size and athleticism . Both ran sub 4.9 and were graded extremely highly and are huge physical men . They have the physical tools to battle . They are very high end prospects . I’m just optimistic . I see this as the best top to bottom draft we had since 2012 and maybe the best line prospect draft of the Carroll era. These aren’t Ifedi . I anticipate a run heavy offense out of the gate which is a lot easier than pass blocking a bunch for a rookie . On the interior we have veteran players including Phil
Haynes who played excellent down the stretch . Forsyth got a little playing time late in the year if someone falters .

This we know . They let Brown walk . Lucas is getting first team reps . Much like apparently choosing between Geno and Drew to play QB they intend to start these rookie bookends . Crazy as it may sound .

[NorthHawk]

Lots of players have great physical tools and can’t play. Conversely some players who don’t have
great physical tools do well. But neither do well at the beginning of their careers.

edit: at OT.

[Hawktawk]

As a rule or generally speaking ? I don’t follow a lot of linemens careers but I’m pretty sure there’s been some rookie tackles that played well . I know of one for sure who was a hawk .
I trust a coach who spent 10 years building a team every year and dominating a power 5 conference most of that time . I see no reason Pete would have stayed for a rebuild . 10 million bucks ? I guess it’s a good reason but is it worth being canned and labeled the guy who lost Wilson? These guys have a plan .

[RiverDog]

I would expect Dissly to be used as a supplemental blocker while Cross and Lucas develop. Neither are experienced enough or good enough at this point to be left on their own.

Yep, and the same is true with our running backs, that they, too, are going to be asked to help out in pass protection, especially if we end up starting two rookie OT's. There's a huge difference between playing OT in college and at the NFL level, especially when you consider the types of edge rushers we'll be facing...Bosa, Mack, Clark, Donald, just to name a few.

[NorthHawk]

Most don’t do well their first few years.
Walter Jones did well, but he was the exception and had the advantage of coming from a school who
played a pro style Offense and bead coaches who taught pro style techniques. He was also the
beneficiary of having much more practice time that todays OL don’t get.

I don’t know what the particular Offenses our draft picks played in regarding plays, but there are some
“Air Raid” or similar Offenses in college where their playbook on the line was only a few pages long.
The NFL Offenses are by comparison highly complex and some players who are gifted physically like
Ifedi are not able to process everything that’s coming at them. I hope they don’t try to move them
to other positions like they did with Ifedi and ruin their careers but it will mean a large learning
curve and a lot of mistakes while they develop.

[Hawktawk]

Big Walt was probably one of the strongest men ever to play the position . Obviously he had excellent technique but his biggest attribute was his brute strength . If he got locked on someone they were finished . Anyone in the league .

[NorthHawk]

Big Walt was probably one of the strongest men ever to play the position . Obviously he had excellent technique but his biggest attribute was his brute strength . If he got locked on someone they were finished . Anyone in the league .

There’s a reason he’s in the HoF, but most of his sacks given up were the first year if I remember correctly.
In time Cross and Lucas might be pretty good, but it’s a much longer learning curve than 20 years ago.

[Hawktawk]

North we’re gonna find out . I watched him take a sack live in 2001 vs the skins courtesy of an ancient Bruce smith . Brutal loss to Steve Spurrier . It was Hasslebecks first start back after Dilfer got hurt. I had no respect for Hass prior to the game but he did some good things and as the late great to the forum Big Daddy used to say “ the most unathletic looking athletic guy I’ve ever seen “. It was at that game my attitude changed and I decided the guy could play and might take us somewhere. So I’m not always wrong .

[obiken]

Big Walt was probably one of the strongest men ever to play the position . Obviously he had excellent technique but his biggest attribute was his brute strength . If he got locked on someone they were finished . Anyone in the league .

Ive told this story before but bares repeating, I was back in Seattle one day, and WJ was pushing his SUV up Madison or Marion, with is wife and kids in it. Up from Western Av all the way up to St James Cathedral, in his spandex! Now I made that "walk" in my prime when I was in good shape and had to stop at Fifth! No wonder He never went to training camp. I wanted to ask for his autograph but I was too scared.

[Aseahawkfan]

How do you miss qualifiers like the one I have in bold above? I said “if” for a reason because I haven’t yet seen it consistently employed. Not falling for anything, but I sure do hope they can make something out of the tight end group. And it will be Dissly that hopefully takes up the Zach Miller mantle. Fant was talking about his athleticism as a receiver in taking advantage of play action.

Fant is a really good prospect. From what I've seen and read, that was the real gem of the players we picked up. He seems like he can fill that Zach Miller role of being a good passer and blocker Pete likes in a TE. He has the size and I heard he isn't soft like Graham was.

I've just heard so many times about using the TE more over the years that every time I hear it now I roll my eyes. Every OC and DC comes in here talking about adding new things in and doing new stuff, but we end up doing the same way Pete has always wanted to do them with maybe a few wrinkles tossed in here and there. I expect to run the ball and play action pass like we always do. Try to control the clock and play hard defense. We'll never be a high volume passing team under Pete unless he has no choice like we get way behind as Riverdog pointed out.

[Aseahawkfan]

There’s a reason he’s in the HoF, but most of his sacks given up were the first year if I remember correctly.
In time Cross and Lucas might be pretty good, but it’s a much longer learning curve than 20 years ago.

We won't ever see another Walter Jones. Dude was a freak of nature. Not even sure how he did what he did as long as he did it and made it look so easy. Walt spoiled us to what to expect from a LT. I was high on Okung when he first arrived. He had all the measurables and size. He was never even close to Walter Jones in his best year, no one really has been. Walter Jones was probably the best LT to ever play the game.

[NorthHawk]

I don’t think anyone in their right mind expects to see an equal to
Jones at OT, but if we could develop Cross to be as good as Okung, then
he’d be a good pick, but it’s going to take some time to get to that level.

[RiverDog]

We won't ever see another Walter Jones. Dude was a freak of nature. Not even sure how he did what he did as long as he did it and made it look so easy. Walt spoiled as to what to expect from a LT. I was high on Okung when he first arrived. He had all the measurables and size. He was never even close to Walter Jones in his best year, no one really has been. Walter Jones was probably the best LT to ever play the game.

I've shook hands with two Hall of Famers: Bob Feller and Walter Jones.

How many seasons did Big Walt hold out of training camp then stepped on the field with just a few practices and played at a Pro Bowl level? The guy has more Pro Bowl appearances than he had holding penalties. He's the best Seahawk player we've ever had, including Steve Largent.

I can't say whether or not he was the best LT to have ever played the game, but he's damn sure in the conversation. Plus he's a heck of a nice guy.

[obiken]

I can't say whether or not he was the best LT to have ever played the game, but he's damn sure in the conversation. Plus he's a heck of a nice guy.

I would say WJ, Anthony Munoz, and Joe Thomas are in the top 3, maybe Forrest Gregg.

[RiverDog]

I can't say whether or not he was the best LT to have ever played the game, but he's damn sure in the conversation. Plus he's a heck of a nice guy.

I would say WJ, Anthony Munoz, and Joe Thomas are in the top 3, maybe Forrest Gregg.

Munoz and Thomas for sure. Gregg was from a different era so it's hard to compare him with the others. Actually, Munoz was, too.

I always hesitate when it comes to these GOAT discussions no matter what the sport is. The game and the athletes themselves change too much to make a fair comparison. But there's little doubt that Walt was one of the all time greats.

[Old but Slow]

As we are in a thread about Russell, the recent comments have brought to mind the great players we have been blessed by having. Russell is the best QB the Seahawks have ever had, but he has to get in line behind some others. Walter Jones, Cortez Kennedy and Steve Largent would rank ahead of Wilson, as might Marshawn Lynch, Bobby Wagner, Shawn Alexander, Kam Chancellor, and maybe a few others.

Wilson might be considered in the running for most valuable, though, because of the position he plays. Replacing him will be a challenge. The next couple of drafts may give us one, but likely not. It is such a crap shoot. Witness the number of high QB picks that have failed, as well as those that are simply mediocre (strange to call some of the best athletes on the planet mediocre).

So far I am good with the trade. We got some value, and we are not faced with having to pay Russ, so we have more to spend on getting this team back together. With a new team, as that is what it feels like, I will content myself with watching the young players develop and hope that I can see another one reach the pantheon. Winning will come in time.

[RiverDog]

As we are in a thread about Russell, the recent comments have brought to mind the great players we have been blessed by having. Russell is the best QB the Seahawks have ever had, but he has to get in line behind some others. Walter Jones, Cortez Kennedy and Steve Largent would rank ahead of Wilson, as might Marshawn Lynch, Bobby Wagner, Shawn Alexander, Kam Chancellor, and maybe a few others.

Wilson might be considered in the running for most valuable, though, because of the position he plays. Replacing him will be a challenge. The next couple of drafts may give us one, but likely not. It is such a crap shoot. Witness the number of high QB picks that have failed, as well as those that are simply mediocre (strange to call some of the best athletes on the planet mediocre).

So far I am good with the trade. We got some value, and we are not faced with having to pay Russ, so we have more to spend on getting this team back together. With a new team, as that is what it feels like, I will content myself with watching the young players develop and hope that I can see another one reach the pantheon. Winning will come in time.

Ahh, ObS, the most rational poster on the board. My thoughts exactly.

I don't think that we were going to win another Lombardi with Russell or any other QB, whether that be Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, or whomever. The team had lost that much talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball. The easiest and quickest way to rebuild this team was to trade Russell while we could get the maximum amount of capital for him and use the proceeds to help support this rebuild process.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's funny to me that when Russell was drafted, it was supposed to be the the greatest QB class since Elway. That 1984 draft had John Elway, Jim Kelly, Tony Eason, and Dan Marino. Three Hall of Famers and a serviceable starting QB. In 2012 when Russell was drafted he was taken in the same draft as Andrew Luck, RG3, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Brock Osweiller, Nick Foles, and Kirk Cousins. Russell was listed as The Asterisk on Pro Football Focus because his production should have made him a top 5 draft pick, but his height knocked him down to the 3rd and he was considered a throwaway pick by most NFL "experts." It turned out that Russell Wilson was the best QB in the 2012 draft that has lasted the longest and been the most productive. We basically got a number 1 overall pick in the 3rd round. If Russ had been 2 to 3 inches taller, he never would have been a Seahawk and the last ten years would have likely been very different.

It's so strange how much a random factor like 2 to 3 inches of height can change the entire history of a franchise. One of those random factors you can't possibly foresee like Tom Brady being some no name scrub drafted in the 6th round or Joe Montana in the 3rd round for Frisco. You make these picks. You never know what's gonna happen. Sometimes when you might not even expect it, you get magic.

Russell was and always will be a magical moment in Seahawks football history. Part of the legend of that Seahawks Super Bowl team like the Legion of Boom and those crazy catches by Jermaine Kearse.

For about a five year period from the time Pete arrived and to that terrible play call, Pete Carroll built a Seattle legend all of us will always remember. That entire team and time period was when luck, skill, ambition, coaching, talent, and drive all came together to form an amazing team. I doubt that team will ever be equaled while I'm alive. Glad I was able to enjoy it.

[Hawktawk]

The call was in year 3 of the Wilson era . It freaks me out how time flies at age 62. That was over 8 years ago. Lots of magical moments

[RiverDog]

It's funny to me that when Russell was drafted, it was supposed to be the the greatest QB class since Elway. That 1984 draft had John Elway, Jim Kelly, Tony Eason, and Dan Marino. Three Hall of Famers and a serviceable starting QB. In 2012 when Russell was drafted he was taken in the same draft as Andrew Luck, RG3, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Brock Osweiller, Nick Foles, and Kirk Cousins. Russell was listed as The Asterisk on Pro Football Focus because his production should have made him a top 5 draft pick, but his height knocked him down to the 3rd and he was considered a throwaway pick by most NFL "experts." It turned out that Russell Wilson was the best QB in the 2012 draft that has lasted the longest and been the most productive. We basically got a number 1 overall pick in the 3rd round. If Russ had been 2 to 3 inches taller, he never would have been a Seahawk and the last ten years would have likely been very different.

It's so strange how much a random factor like 2 to 3 inches of height can change the entire history of a franchise. One of those random factors you can't possibly foresee like Tom Brady being some no name scrub drafted in the 6th round or Joe Montana in the 3rd round for Frisco. You make these picks. You never know what's gonna happen. Sometimes when you might even expect, you get magic.

Russell was and always will be a magical moment in Seahawks football history. Part of the legend of that Seahawks Super Bowl team like the Legion of Boom and those crazy catches by Jermaine Kearse.

For about a five year period from the time Pete arrived and to that terrible play call, Pete Carroll built a Seattle legend all of us will always remember. That entire team and time period was when luck, skill, ambition, coaching, talent, and drive all came together to form an amazing team. I doubt that team will ever be equaled while I'm alive. Glad I was able to enjoy it.

I don't recall the 2012 QB class as being the best ever, but it was thought of as being above average. I remember you advocating that we draft Kellen Moore out of Boise State. Russell was projected to be a Day 3 pick, 5th-6th round, and I can remember when we drafted him being upset that we spent a 3rd rounder on him, without a doubt one of my biggest misjudgments since I began following the sport.

IMO the biggest factor in Russell's early success was the trend towards the read option during that period of time. RG3 thrived in it that first year. Colin Kaepernick rode it to the Super Bowl. Russell took to it like a duck takes to water, making excellent decisions, showing good ball security, very good accuracy when he was asked to pass, plus it didn't hurt that he had Beast to hand the ball off to. I'm not sure he would have gotten the opportunity to start had it not been for the fact that he was so good at running the read. Matt Flynn had a very good preseason, and might have won the job had it not been for a late shoulder injury or had it been a different team that didn't share Pete's vision of a point guard quarterback to operate his run first offense. We had a suspect offensive line, and Russell's ability to run the read option gave the OL one less defender that they had to block.

[NorthHawk]

I think Wilson would have started regardless of the RPO but it certainly didn't hurt him.
The draft is often valued by how good the top couple of players are expected to be. With Luck and RGIII at the top, the media was all over this draft thinking at least 2 All Pro's would come out of it and maybe
a surprise or two. That we ended up with two perennial Pro Bowlers and All Pro candidates in the 2nd and 3rd rounds was a surprise but still added to the draft strength as a whole.

[RiverDog]

I think Wilson would have started regardless of the RPO but it certainly didn't hurt him. The draft is often valued by how good the top couple of players are expected to be. With Luck and RGIII at the top, the media was all over this draft thinking at least 2 All Pro's would come out of it and maybe a surprise or two. That we ended up with two perennial Pro Bowlers and All Pro candidates in the 2nd and 3rd rounds was a surprise but still added to the draft strength as a whole.

I dunno. Flynn was getting nearly all the reps with the first team in the preseason and was playing well until he hurt his throwing shoulder. There was a considerable debate about who won the competition, some of us pointing out that Russell's preseason success was against 2nd and 3rd string competition while Flynn's was against much better players. I do think that Russell would have won the job even if Flynn had stayed healthy, but if you took the read option out of the equation, IMO Flynn wins that job.

[tarlhawk]

Its been documented how John Schneider was a solid supporter in drafting Russell Wilson when many slighted his height and drafted potential...which is part of the reason I trust Schneiders favorable appraisal of getting Drew Lock as a potential career turn around candidate...perhaps akin to when Drew Brees left the Chargers with a "similar career start" only to blossom upon arriving in New Orleans.
Brees was let go for the arrival of Phillip Rivers as a Chargers rookie. Rivers played great overall but Brees was let go before the Chargers realized his true potential. Russell will no doubt play great for Denver...but did they let Drew Lock go before untapping his true potential. Such magic in a bottle is hard to replicate...but perhaps John Schneider will gain notoriety for what our team got in return for allowing RW to pursue his dreams away from Seattle?

[NorthHawk]

I dunno. Flynn was getting nearly all the reps with the first team in the preseason and was playing well until he hurt his throwing shoulder. There was a considerable debate about who won the competition, some of us pointing out that Russell's preseason success was against 2nd and 3rd string competition while Flynn's was against much better players. I do think that Russell would have won the job even if Flynn had stayed healthy, but if you took the read option out of the equation, IMO Flynn wins that job.

Flynn wasn't doing that well even when not hurt from what I remember. As well, Wilson had better field management. If I recall, the people who liked Flynn were more comfortable with a veteran
than a rookie which was the deciding factor. I think they thought the football side was pretty close.

[RiverDog]

Flynn wasn't doing that well even when not hurt from what I remember. As well, Wilson had better field management. If I recall, the people who liked Flynn were more comfortable with a veteran than a rookie which was the deciding factor. I think they thought the football side was pretty close.

I think your memory is a little faulty.

In 2012, we were undefeated in the preseason, winning by at least two scores in all 4 games with Flynn as the starter for at least 3 of them. I couldn't find any preseason stats from 2012, but I did come across this article:

Flynn has been as good as advertised following a four-year run in Green Bay as Aaron Rodgers' backup. He has been steady and consistent from the pocket, displaying outstanding instincts, awareness and anticipation. Flynn has shown a solid mastery of the Seahawks' offensive system by regularly getting to the second and third options of the progression. This forces opponents to defend the entire field while allowing the offense to remain on schedule. Flynn has averaged a disappointing 3.9 yards per attempt in the preseason, but he has been plagued by dropped balls from his receivers (see: Terrell Owens).

From a game-management standpoint, Flynn has been solid in orchestrating things from the line of scrimmage. He routinely gets the Seahawks to the line quickly and makes the appropriate checks to get them into favorable plays. It is easier to handle this process during the preseason against defenses that are conservative in coverages and fronts. But the fact that he has shown a solid grasp of the complexities of Seattle's offensive system is an encouraging sign at this point.

In two preseason games, Flynn has shown solid leadership while guiding the Seahawks to four scoring drives (all field goals) in 10 possessions. He has made enough conversions in critical situations to sustain drives, but Seattle must produce more touchdowns to be effective in the regular season.

Conclusion

It will be hard to bypass Flynn as the starting quarterback, considering his solid play throughout the preseason and the hefty financial investment Seattle made in him. Flynn was recruited to be the franchise quarterback and hasn't done anything to disappoint thus far. However, Wilson appears to have special skills at the position, and his ability to thrive as a dual threat could be problematic for opponents in the regular season. I expect Flynn to get the first crack at the job when the regular season opens, but if the marquee free agent struggles at any point, I wouldn't be surprised to see Wilson get the call.

https://www.nfl.com/news/matt-flynn-vs- ... 0000052375

That's quite a bit closer to my recollection than it is yours. The fight for the starting job was a virtual toss up at the end of the preseason, and IMO it was Russell's "special skills" as a dual threat QB, ie read option, that made the difference.

[mykc14]

Its been documented how John Schneider was a solid supporter in drafting Russell Wilson when many slighted his height and drafted potential...which is part of the reason I trust Schneiders favorable appraisal of getting Drew Lock as a potential career turn around candidate...perhaps akin to when Drew Brees left the Chargers with a "similar career start" only to blossom upon arriving in New Orleans.
Brees was let go for the arrival of Phillip Rivers as a Chargers rookie. Rivers played great overall but Brees was let go before the Chargers realized his true potential. Russell will no doubt play great for Denver...but did they let Drew Lock go before untapping his true potential. Such magic in a bottle is hard to replicate...but perhaps John Schneider will gain notoriety for what our team got in return for allowing RW to pursue his dreams away from Seattle?

I'm not saying Drew Lock is going to be bad but Schneider also felt good about Charlie Whitehurst. Just because he's right about RW doesn't meant that he is right about Drew Lock. With that being said I 100% believe that they did have Drew Lock rated higher than any QB in this year's rookie class and I don't mind them essentially taking a flyer on him. Better to have him and your draft picks than draft a lower rated QB this year. He's going to get a shot and it's really a low risk move on our part as we should have ample draft stock to draft a good QB next year (not that whoever we draft would be a sure thing), which is why I don't love the Geno signing. Honestly I would rather go with Lock this year and if he's good enough to take us to the next level then we found our QBOTF, if he sucks then we draft our QBOTF. Either way after next season we have our QBOTF on our roster. If Geno is an upgrade over Lock all it will probably do is get us a worse draft pick which means we will have less draft capital to get whoever we want at the QB position in the draft.

[RiverDog]

Its been documented how John Schneider was a solid supporter in drafting Russell Wilson when many slighted his height and drafted potential...which is part of the reason I trust Schneiders favorable appraisal of getting Drew Lock as a potential career turn around candidate...perhaps akin to when Drew Brees left the Chargers with a "similar career start" only to blossom upon arriving in New Orleans.
Brees was let go for the arrival of Phillip Rivers as a Chargers rookie. Rivers played great overall but Brees was let go before the Chargers realized his true potential. Russell will no doubt play great for Denver...but did they let Drew Lock go before untapping his true potential. Such magic in a bottle is hard to replicate...but perhaps John Schneider will gain notoriety for what our team got in return for allowing RW to pursue his dreams away from Seattle?

I don't think Brees's career start is a good comparison to Lock's. Brees' first couple of seasons with the Chargers were pretty rough, but his last two were very good, completing 65% of his passes and a TD:INT ratio of 5 TD's to 2 INT's. He was a finished product by the time Sean Payton got him. Lock never came close to those kind of numbers, finishing with a sub 60% completion percentage and 2.5 touchdowns for every 2 interceptions. There's no telling what Brees might have or hadn't done had he started out his career with the Saints instead of having the benefit of that learning experience he went through with the Chargers.

Mykc has a good point about JS and his eye for quarterbacks. It was Schneider who advocated going after Tavaris Jackson and signed Matt Flynn. J/B Schneider got it right with Russell doesn't mean that he has some sort of unique insight to quarterbacks.

[NorthHawk]

JS also like Josh Allen when a lot of others didn't, so he might be a step ahead in some respects.
But, it's still a crapshoot when drafting. All you can really do is do your homework and make a decision.

[Hawktawk]

Its been documented how John Schneider was a solid supporter in drafting Russell Wilson when many slighted his height and drafted potential...which is part of the reason I trust Schneiders favorable appraisal of getting Drew Lock as a potential career turn around candidate...perhaps akin to when Drew Brees left the Chargers with a "similar career start" only to blossom upon arriving in New Orleans.
Brees was let go for the arrival of Phillip Rivers as a Chargers rookie. Rivers played great overall but Brees was let go before the Chargers realized his true potential. Russell will no doubt play great for Denver...but did they let Drew Lock go before untapping his true potential. Such magic in a bottle is hard to replicate...but perhaps John Schneider will gain notoriety for what our team got in return for allowing RW to pursue his dreams away from Seattle?

I don't think Brees's career start is a good comparison to Lock's. Brees' first couple of seasons with the Chargers were pretty rough, but his last two were very good, completing 65% of his passes and a TD:INT ratio of 5 TD's to 2 INT's. He was a finished product by the time Sean Payton got him. Lock never came close to those kind of numbers, finishing with a sub 60% completion percentage and 2.5 touchdowns for every 2 interceptions. There's no telling what Brees might have or hadn't done had he started out his career with the Saints instead of having the benefit of that learning experience he went through with the Chargers.

Mykc has a good point about JS and his eye for quarterbacks. It was Schneider who advocated going after Tavaris Jackson and signed Matt Flynn. J/B Schneider got it right with Russell doesn't mean that he has some sort of unique insight to quarterbacks.

Good lord I’m so sick of the Pete and john rants . You guys are repeating yourselves . When ragging on Pete and John for those 2 years with Jackson and Whitehurst you have no perspective at all . With a busted up Hass and Whitehurst PC won a division and only 2 less games than the previous 2 seasons with a barn with no hay left in it from utter mismanagement of the roster . Actually only one less game because they won beast quake. Whitehurst won the division in a gritty low scoring affair . Nobody says they were gonna be all pros but they were NFL quality players . Want to rag about Flynn ? How many head coaches would have picked a 5’10” rookie 3rd rounder over him . Russ has never appreciated the fact he was picked . With that defense it’s entirely possible Flynn wins 10 and Russ sits for years . The fans who like ragging on Pete don’t give him credit for having the balls to tell PA he just wasted 20 million .


I completely agree with Tarihawk . I’m optimistic about Lock because of Wilson . More so because of the transformation of Genos game here. If they do that for Lock were a contender immediately with a better offense than last year .

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't recall the 2012 QB class as being the best ever, but it was thought of as being above average. I remember you advocating that we draft Kellen Moore out of Boise State. Russell was projected to be a Day 3 pick, 5th-6th round, and I can remember when we drafted him being upset that we spent a 3rd rounder on him, without a doubt one of my biggest misjudgments since I began following the sport.

IMO the biggest factor in Russell's early success was the trend towards the read option during that period of time. RG3 thrived in it that first year. Colin Kaepernick rode it to the Super Bowl. Russell took to it like a duck takes to water, making excellent decisions, showing good ball security, very good accuracy when he was asked to pass, plus it didn't hurt that he had Beast to hand the ball off to. I'm not sure he would have gotten the opportunity to start had it not been for the fact that he was so good at running the read. Matt Flynn had a very good preseason, and might have won the job had it not been for a late shoulder injury or had it been a different team that didn't share Pete's vision of a point guard quarterback to operate his run first offense. We had a suspect offensive line, and Russell's ability to run the read option gave the OL one less defender that they had to block.

I did get caught up in the Kellen Moore Boise hype. I didn't know who Russ was.

The media was saying it was the best QB draft since the 1983 draft. It had the most QBs drafted high of almost any draft in history. There was a huge debate about Russ's height with many thinking he had no chance. And so many football writers bagging on Russ saying he would never make it.

It's why the idea of Russ breaking under the pressure of expectations in Denver is laughable. That kid was already told he would never make it because he was 5'11" or 5'10.5". He's had pressure all through his life for reasons worse than being a short QB. Russ won't crack. He does things the way he does because that's what it took for an under-sized QB to become one of the top QBs in the league. He's never gonna let up.

Getting Russ was the kind of magic you can't reproduce is my main point. When you basically draft the equivalent of a number one overall pick in the 3rd round while also drafting an All Pro LB in the 2nd is the kind of once in a franchise lifetime magic that is part of the reason why coaches and GMs who build one Super Bowl team have a hard time building a second. Some of the magic that happens is impossible to reproduce. Finding All Pro CBs in the 5th round. Finding a huge LB sized safety who can play at an All Pro level in the 5th round. An undrafted free agent that becomes one of your best WRs in history in Doug Baldwin. A 7th round pick like Michael Bennett becoming a top flight pass rusher. Recovering Lynch who was all but discarded as done in the NFL sitting on Buffalo's bench. These types of moves are not easy to reproduce at all.

It's like New England will never find a QB like Tom Brady in the 6th round of the NFL draft.

Some things are not reproducible. They are magic that happens once in a franchise lifetime or at best once every 3 or 4 decades.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think Brees's career start is a good comparison to Lock's. Brees' first couple of seasons with the Chargers were pretty rough, but his last two were very good, completing 65% of his passes and a TD:INT ratio of 5 TD's to 2 INT's. He was a finished product by the time Sean Payton got him. Lock never came close to those kind of numbers, finishing with a sub 60% completion percentage and 2.5 touchdowns for every 2 interceptions. There's no telling what Brees might have or hadn't done had he started out his career with the Saints instead of having the benefit of that learning experience he went through with the Chargers.

Mykc has a good point about JS and his eye for quarterbacks. It was Schneider who advocated going after Tavaris Jackson and signed Matt Flynn. J/B Schneider got it right with Russell doesn't mean that he has some sort of unique insight to quarterbacks.

I've never seen a GM that didn't operate like John Schneider who follows the idea that you get as many good guys in competing for the position to find a quality player. John's idea has always been volume and quality. I doubt if Schneider were in charge he makes nearly the number of trades we've made for players on other teams. I think that's almost all been driven by Carroll. Schneider is from Green Bay. They almost always build through the draft. That is how Schneider was trained. Accumulate draft picks, draft a high volume of players, always opportunistically pick up a good QB candidate if available, pick a good head coach to develop the talent.

That's why when I look at the team, I see more Carroll wanting some player on another team he likes than Schneider. Carroll fuels the trades. Carroll came up in the age of grabbing players from other teams when Dallas and Frisco would trade Deion Sanders back and forth or other good players because they had the money to do so. I think Carroll has a little bit of that mentality though it doesn't work soo great in the modern NFL with the salary cap. Too expensive to poach quality players from other teams.

[RiverDog]

It's why the idea of Russ breaking under the pressure of expectations in Denver is laughable. That kid was already told he would never make it because he was 5'11" or 5'10.5". He's had pressure all through his life for reasons worse than being a short QB. Russ won't crack. He does things the way he does because that's what it took for an under-sized QB to become one of the top QBs in the league. He's never gonna let up.

Getting Russ was the kind of magic you can't reproduce is my main point. When you basically draft the equivalent of a number one overall pick in the 3rd round while also drafting an All Pro LB in the 2nd is the kind of once in a franchise lifetime magic that is part of the reason why coaches and GMs who build one Super Bowl team have a hard time building a second. Some of the magic that happens is impossible to reproduce. Finding All Pro CBs in the 5th round. Finding a huge LB sized safety who can play at an All Pro level in the 5th round. An undrafted free agent that becomes one of your best WRs in history in Doug Baldwin. A 7th round pick like Michael Bennett becoming a top flight pass rusher. Recovering Lynch who was all but discarded as done in the NFL sitting on Buffalo's bench. These types of moves are not easy to reproduce at all.

It's like New England will never find a QB like Tom Brady in the 6th round of the NFL draft.

Some things are not reproducible. They are magic that happens once in a franchise lifetime or at best once every 3 or 4 decades.

Yeah, arguing that a 10 year veteran that has gone to two Super Bowls is going to wilt under pressure simply because he's playing for a different team is pretty laughable. He'll be excited to be with a new team, anxious to produce for them, but that's a lot different emotion than feeling pressured.

However, Russell's going to have to change the way he was doing things here for the past 1.5 years if he's going to be successful. He can't be passing up 8-15 yard open receivers on 3rd down in lieu of trying to find a deep ball target, and he's going to have to use the entire field rather than ignoring the middle. His 3rd down completion percentage really sucked. There were times that I felt that his having Metcalf available was counter productive.

Having said that, he obviously has the ability to be self critical and change his game, get back to what was working for him.

[NorthHawk]

Russell will now have an Offense that he thinks suits him.
He's got a big hand in developing it so he will be doing a lot of things differently.
His HC is from the Shanahan tree so expect to see more pre snap motion, various plays from the same formation, quick passes
and using WCO concepts. Unlike Peteball, the cupboard of plays is wide open and deception plays a part in the offensive scheme.
What is the same is a good run game. The Broncos have 2 very good RBs and a solid OL to set up the pass game.
Will the short pass game come about for Wilson in this Offense? If he feels comfortable with it because this Offense is about getting
the most out of Wilson and the others around him on Offense.