The defense...how do you see it?

[NorthHawk]

Has his Defensive system really shifted?
He’s built his program on one system and he’s had a great deal of success with it. It’s what he believes is how to
play football.
I’m sure we will have some different looks and use the 3-4 from time to time but after winning at the highest
levels it’s almost inconceivable the he would suddenly change after 30 years of success.

We’ll see how it goes in the pre season and September, but i would expect the basic Defensive scheme to be
what we’ve seen from the beginning of his tenure here with the occasional 3-4 looks.

On Offense? I doubt it’s going to change much if at all. Like Pete said about our Offense 2 years ago before
he pulled the rug out from under Schottenheimer and Wilson, it’s not football that he understands.

[Aseahawkfan]

Are you kidding me? You've cited the proof yourself. Pete's trades, his draft picks, his failure to put together a pass rush, the descent of our defense from the best in this century to the worst. The reason why we constantly trade down is that Pete believes that his system is so superior that he can find players in the later rounds to fit it, a pattern he changed in just this last draft. That's what allowed him to trade for Adams, because he didn't think he needed those high draft picks to build a great defense, that his system, which includes his player evaluation, was superior to all others.

If his scheme is so good and relevant, why is he changing it? Why is he going to a 3-4?

I don't believe Pete believes his scheme can make up for deficient talent. I think he's just missed. But what do you expect Pete and John to do? "Hey guys, we missed on too any draft picks and trades. That's why we're not competing. Sorry." No coach is going to do that.

Pete and John both know talent trumps scheme, even while coaching matters. I've listened to their philosophical team discussions many times. Not the weekly press conference where Pete babbles for the entertainment of fans trying to pump them up. Pete's weekly press conferences are for entertainment, nothing more. He knows it and tries to make it positive and entertaining.

I'm talking the interviews where Pete and John sit down and talk football philosophy that doesn't change from interview to interview. If you were to talk to them weekly about it, they would say the same thing with a serious face, not Pete's weekly pump up the fan base babble.

John has always said the two most important people in the organization are the head coach and QB. That has never changed for Schneider. He knows he needs to build a high quality scouting staff as scouting is the life blood of talent acquisition for the NFL. He knows he needs to use a combination of the draft, free agency, and trading to build a team. I bet if you sat down with John Schneider in an honest conversation, he would tell you himself they have failed to replenish team talent.

Pete has entire articles breaking down his football philosophy from his defense to his offense, though far more on defense. He breaks down each position, the physical traits he looks for at each position, and sometimes he even talks about how he makes adjustments when he sees something on film that needs fixing. If you can find any of Pete's interviews that aren't weekly hype where Pete talks football x's and o's and team building, you know the game has not passed him by even a little bit. And why other coaches like Bill Belichick and most other head coaches consider Pete Carroll one of the best coaches in the NFL, probably in the top 3. Pete Carroll knows football about as well as anyone can know it.

But the reality is when you have too many failed draft picks and trades and that talent deficit starts to accumulate over time as the old players' abilities degrade due to age and wear and tear, it will make you non-competitive even if your schemes are as good as anyone's.

As far as the 3-4 talk, people forget that Pete said he was going to do that before. When he talked about the LEO alignment when he first arrived it was explained at times as a hybrid 4-3/3-4 alignment with a LEO LB like he used Clay Matthews in college. So I seriously doubt we will see a pure 3-4. I think we will see a return to the LEO alignment 4-3/3-4 hybrid we saw when Chris Clemons was our primary DE. Clint Hurtt is talking up this 3-4 because it makes for interesting fan base talk rather than trying something we haven't seen here under Pete. There is little reason to believe a 3-4 is better than a 4-3 anyway. They both work depending on the talent you have and Pete knows how to adjust his 4-3 into a hybrid alignment with a LEO backer acting as pass rusher. I also think the LEO alignment can better use Jamal Adams pass rushing as well. I'm betting the old LEO is all we're really doing which hasn't been talked about for years because we no longer needed to use a LEO because we had normal sized DEs capable of every down run defense and pass rushing.

When you say the game has "passed Pete by" you seem to be implying his strategies no longer work. I don't think that at all myself. I think they been missing on draft picks and talent acquisition and it has nothing to do with Pete believing his scheme will fix everything. And that is as much on John as it is on Pete as far as I see it.

[Aseahawkfan]

Your reasoning has some salient points but is nothing more than a putdown by an irritated fan...which is ok...especially on this site.

Pete Carroll is big enough to shoulder the criticisms tossed his way...but just like RW we are blessed as a team to have him...be real ...Seattle had no real football fervor (that has grown into a reknown nation wide image of winning football) until Pete arrived with the perfect GM complement in John Schneider. The "twelves" found an institutionalized winning environment as something they could trust and amp up the excitement for. I loved Dave Krieg /Curt Warner /Steve Largent /Kenny Easley and Shaun Alexander and the WWE personality of the BOZ...but I wasn't sold on giving my personal investment of emotions until the arrival of Pete and John in 2010...with my "introduction" being the 2010 ESPN Draft which I always watched since the arrival of ESPN sports coverage.

Trades are often the result of a "need" now ...vice a cultivated draft selection. Most NFL teams are not "stupid" ...trades have built in risks as teams aren't likely to pull the trigger on a deal for a play maker (Defensive or Offensive) who is vital...or even deemed vital to the team you are trying to pry him away from...the risk being "how much" was offered and what is the "fit" of the player you're seeking...don't go to the "grocer" on an "empty stomach". We have had good trades (Lynch/D.Brown/Q.Diggs/J.Coleman) so-so "rental trades" (Clowney/S.Richardson) and "Bad" trades (P.Harvin/J.Grahm...and the possible "bad fit" trade for J. Adams). Trades are seldom "realized" at the time they are made ...so "home grown" tortoise mode potential has less risk than a rabbit mode "quick fix" from another team's fortunes/misfortunes.


To me...draft criticism of any magnitude is like criticizing anyones "technique" in how they purchase lottery tickets...or the timing of buying stocks...you try to learn as much as you can using available resources of "stock" you're interested in ...but when to buy and opportunity... heavily slant your success. The NFL draft is like buying future stocks with the limitations of the lottery system thrown in...as a GM and Head Coach you might know which "stock" to invest in...but the NFL hedges against winning monopolies by making the better winning teams "wait" while losing teams get first dibbs on the "blue chip" investments. "Trading down" is not arrogance...its the logic of "penny stocks" Vs normal sound stocks...a value of quantity guesses over "staying put" guessing.

Pass Rush "focus" defines every NFL team's goals...when you draft one (your team is blessed)...trading for one is almost always expensive...and your defensive schemes and coverage abilities play heavily into pass rush success. Aaron Donalds impact would be weakened if his team mates in the secondary were "weak". Your defense as a whole has to create some hesitation for the opponents QB to allow your pass rush to "deliver". Defensive "arrogance" is giving the opponents QB the comfort of knowing his pre snap "reads" are going to mirror what he sees post snap...last year we showed a 94% pre snap/post snap mirror.

The "fall" of our defense has more "details in the weeds" than just stats and game impact alone. The "tinkering" of utilizing some "Tampa Two" coverage (which is aptly named for Tony Dungee...who had the benefit of strong pass rushers) "confused" our own players more than it "hurt" the opposing teams offense. It requires both safeties to drop back into coverage and "split" responsibility of deep coverage. Jamal Adams excels at commit and attack (similar to a LB role) and less of a wait and react coverage role...this early miss use of J. Adams skill set gave a steep learning curve which J.Adams began to improve on ...just as he suffered injury. Our pass rush stumbled after the Indy season opener and relied more on scheme aggression vice individual skill impact. Same failure at "bear front" looks as our DE's were not as athletic as OLB's in coverage drops so many "underneath" quick throws soon exposed our defense to bleeding from a "thousand cuts". The 3-4 base needs a secondary that mirrors (gets sticky) early on wr routes mixing in more man coverage than just plain cover two/cover three zone. Aggression play makers like J. Adams should thrive more in this defensive "shift".

Petes "Cover 3" excellence begged for an Offensive "guru" to "slay it"...Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan delivered "answers"..."flood zone" and "same look" variations took advantage of NFL rule changes that opened up the "middle /quick read" routes that used to be "enter at risk" zones for WR and TE...the emergence of speedy "slot receivers" also resulted in a defensive tilt down while offenses bloomed and ran up scores.

Pete's defensive scheme has shifted out of necessity and he has brought in "outside" help in coaching (Desai/Scott) and elevated Hurtt to implement "change"...and targeted draft selections/free agents to "mold" into this "shift". Coby Bryant and Tariq Woolen have landed in "defensive back" college with the coaching we have on board and Sidney Jones/Tre Brown/Artie Burns can "lead the way".

None of the coaches brought in are better than Carroll. Not one of them.

It is talent. You can't point to quality talent on the Seahawks defensive line or secondary, which is why none of you ever bother to try in these discussions. Our secondary and defensive line suck. It's that simple. They can't get to the passer. They can't stop the run. They can't cover well. Our best cover safety is Quandre Diggs and he still isn't on par with Earl Thomas.

The only answers McVay has found is looking across at the Seattle and watching Pete Carroll and John Schneider fail to find quality talent at key positions. Which is why Pete and John have been desperately making trades to acquire already developed talent they can plug and play because they have been so unable to draft it. LJ Collier, failed. Darryl Taylor, average at best. Frank Clark, gone.

What we have right now is a talent deficit, not a scheme deficit. Until you all can point to those players that can execute Pete Carroll's defense well enough to compete, there's not much else to discuss. Seattle's talent deficit to me is as obvious as the sun rising or gravity. DE has the most failed picks. We haven't had a solid pass rushing DT since we let Jarran Reed walk. Our CBs have literally been a revolving door of names I barely remember. How long ago was Shaquill Griffin here? Who was that guy that was mad we were comparing him to Richard Sherman? Didn't we sign Sidney whatever his name is off someone else's practice squad because he was a promising CB with injury issue who couldn't make the regular team?

Our talent deficit is widespread and easy to see. That's what benefitted the other team's in our division far more than someone figuring out Pete's schemes. Pete and John been missing on team building in the offseason, which leads to non-competitive teams in the regular season.

[Hawktawk]

Great analysis. We suck. I remember that sucky defense holding Green Bay to 3 halfway through the 4ty quarter . Even the season ending 38-30 win over Az was deceiving because 14 points were delivered by let’s ride .

[tarlhawk]

None of the coaches brought in are better than Carroll. Not one of them.

It is talent. You can't point to quality talent on the Seahawks defensive line or secondary, which is why none of you ever bother to try in these discussions. Our secondary and defensive line suck. It's that simple. They can't get to the passer. They can't stop the run. They can't cover well. Our best cover safety is Quandre Diggs and he still isn't on par with Earl Thomas.

The only answers McVay has found is looking across at the Seattle and watching Pete Carroll and John Schneider fail to find quality talent at key positions. Which is why Pete and John have been desperately making trades to acquire already developed talent they can plug and play because they have been so unable to draft it. LJ Collier, failed. Darryl Taylor, average at best. Frank Clark, gone.

What we have right now is a talent deficit, not a scheme deficit. Until you all can point to those players that can execute Pete Carroll's defense well enough to compete, there's not much else to discuss. Seattle's talent deficit to me is as obvious as the sun rising or gravity. DE has the most failed picks. We haven't had a solid pass rushing DT since we let Jarran Reed walk. Our CBs have literally been a revolving door of names I barely remember. How long ago was Shaquill Griffin here? Who was that guy that was mad we were comparing him to Richard Sherman? Didn't we sign Sidney whatever his name is off someone else's practice squad because he was a promising CB with injury issue who couldn't make the regular team?

Our talent deficit is widespread and easy to see. That's what benefitted the other team's in our division far more than someone figuring out Pete's schemes. Pete and John been missing on team building in the offseason, which leads to non-competitive teams in the regular season.

Your "research" seems a bit shallow...unless you only call an all-pro as worthy "talent"...I'll respond to your post by working backwards...team building isn't the rosy picture you paint during off season when your cap is strapped by two very good players who you have been trying to keep as fan favorites and difference makers in games. Your magic wand ignors serious injuries to drafted talent...these guys didn't arrive with medical red flags on their scouting reports...its life in the NFL and it is a risk all teams face and few escape.

Yes schemes do matter and our cover 3 was exploited with the NFL's offensive explosion at the expense of defensive nightmares...in today's NFL our Legion of Boom would even struggle to perform as well with flags flying for "defenseless receiver" or expansion of "unnecessary roughness" There used to be a "price to pay" for crossing routes in LB territory and any slim built speedy receiver bold enough to do so...often had a short career. Richard Sherman (shortly before leaving us) even complained of how the NFL rule alterations were making defenses suffer.

Just because you don't know our secondary doesn't make them some rag tag group of misfits. Sidney Jones was not a raid on someones practice squad...a 6th round draft pick to the Jags procured this injury plagued quality corner...he was rated the 3rd best corner available in the 2017 draft and a potential late first rd/ early 2nd rd selection. A serious knee injury suffered during his pro day workouts undid his dreams
and as an injured "red flag" medical draftee he still was selected in the 2nd round (43rd overall) by the Eagles. Like Penny an early serious knee injury is hard to shake sometimes but toward the end of last year he flashed excellent coverage skills and also like Penny was re-signed for one year and looks forward to rewarding our team for doing so. Tre Brown also flashed quality potential before succumbing to a season ending soft tissue injury (Patellar Tendon *a tendon connecting your kneecap to your shin bone*). Our 4th rd draft pick Coby Bryant will compete with Artie Burns (a former Steeler 1rst rd draft "bust" who excelled last year finally...while under the tutelage of Sean Desai as the Chicago Bears Defensive Coordinator. As for your constant knock on Jamal Adams ...he allowed a lower QB completion percentage than Quandre Diggs. Slighting Diggs as "no Earl Thomas" is absurd...Earl was a "one of a kind" safety wonder so thats a "hard" standard to follow.

Darryl Taylor "average at best" shows me you are not an NFL 'buff" to be given any creedence on your talent shams which is why I will stop my response here...

[Hawktawk]

Love your analysis Tari. The fact Reed got the big FA deal proved PC and JS had decent talent on that secondary . Sydney Jones balled. Tre Brown was ridiculous till hurt . 11th in points with the worst 3rd down completion % and one on the worst TOP offenses in the league .
It’s a better defense than most think . And Taylor “ average “ . Healthy he will have 10 plus sacks this year .