The defense...how do you see it?

[Aseahawkfan]

Our defense was bad last year. 31st ranked passing defense. 28th total yards. They did get up to 11 in points, but more because they allowed so many long, grinding drives the other team had little need to run the score up.

We cut Bobby Wagner. We cut Carols Dunlap.

We drafted Boye Mafe. A couple of 5th round pick CBs.

Our two starting safeties are coming back from injury. Our best cover safety Quandre Diggs coming back from serious injury. Jamal Adams is having chronic injury issues with his shoulder.

We have no pass rusher that has reached double digits. We don't have a pass rushing DT. We have some middle of the pack run stuffing DTs.

We have a new DC with minimal NFL experience as a DC.

One asset we have is a head coach who is about as good at defense as any coach in NFL history. Even he couldn't get the revolving door CBs, young D-line, and injured safeties to play consistently good.

What's the reasoning behind a substantially improved defense?

I'm not of the mind the DC matters. Our DC is Pete Carroll. This was never Gus Bradly's defense or Dan Quinn's or Kris Richard or Ken Norton Jr. It was always Pete Carroll's defense with maybe a few wrinkles put in by DCs. If those wrinkles weren't working, Pete Carroll would fix it just as he steps in and takes control of the offense when the turnovers start. We like to talk about Pete Ball on offense, but it is even more Pete Ball on defense. And even Pete couldn't get this defense playing well the last few years.

So what about our current defensive personnel makes it seem like our defense will drastically improve next year?

[RiverDog]

A lot of people are hanging their hats on our new DC, Clint Hurtt, our 3rd DC since Dan Quinn left in 2015, and a "born again" Pete Carroll, who has confessed that he needs to loosen up his grip and be more open to change. Can you teach a new dog old tricks?

To be fair, our defense wasn't helped by our offense last season. We had trouble moving the sticks. We were ranked 30th in total first downs. We were ranked in the bottom 1/3 in 3rd down conversions, dead last on 4th down. We had the 6th highest number of 3-and-outs. TOP is a function of both the offense and the defense.

But to answer your question, it's going to take a number of players having a breakout season if we expect significant improvement, players like Darrell Taylor and Jordyn Brooks. Mafe is going to have to be an immediate impact player. It's the 11th hour for LJ Collier, Marquise Blair, and Cody Barton. We're going to have to find a role for Jamal Adams, and he's going to have to stay healthy. He's had more surgeries playing for us than he's had interceptions.

Bottom line is that I don't have a high degree of expectation for this current group. But who knows. Perhaps Pete's turning a new leaf will re-invigorate this unit.

[NorthHawk]

Actually I don't think the Defense helped the Offense much the last few seasons as they struggled with getting a dependable pass rush.

That being said if we are going to have a 3-4 Defense, it looks like we are setting ourselves up for it with the DBs we selected.
However, it was a deep draft for LBs and we didn't select any of them so that makes you wonder. Mafe is listed as an OLB so
maybe that's how they are going to approach it with him and Taylor.
But like said above, this is Pete's Defense and if he doesn't like the results, he will surely pull in the reins like he did with the Offense.
Considering Peteball doesn't allow for the Offense to get too far behind, it's imperative the Defense starts strong and without a QB to
bail it out, it could be ugly early if everyone isn't on the same page.

I'm not sure what the base Defense will be this year. It could be some type of hybrid or maybe the 4-3 under will remain the base with
more 3-4 looks as the transition begins - if there is to be a transition to 3-4.

[Hawktawk]

Actually I don't think the Defense helped the Offense much the last few seasons as they struggled with getting a dependable pass rush.

That being said if we are going to have a 3-4 Defense, it looks like we are setting ourselves up for it with the DBs we selected.
However, it was a deep draft for LBs and we didn't select any of them so that makes you wonder. Mafe is listed as an OLB so
maybe that's how they are going to approach it with him and Taylor.
But like said above, this is Pete's Defense and if he doesn't like the results, he will surely pull in the reins like he did with the Offense.
Considering Peteball doesn't allow for the Offense to get too far behind, it's imperative the Defense starts strong and without a QB to
bail it out, it could be ugly early if everyone isn't on the same page.

I'm not sure what the base Defense will be this year. It could be some type of hybrid or maybe the 4-3 under will remain the base with
more 3-4 looks as the transition begins - if there is to be a transition to 3-4.

The defense has had no help from the offense the last few years as we became boom or bust offensively with the worst third down completion % and so predictably the worst third down conversion rate in the league at 33%. 4 games we had 4 3 and outs in a row . In one of those games we followed it up with a 4 and out . 5 punts in 16 plays . Yeah where is the defense .
We were 11th in points , a team with a superstar franchise guy should be able to average more than 21 points .
The D will be greatly improved .

[Hawktawk]

A lot of people are hanging their hats on our new DC, Clint Hurtt, our 3rd DC since Dan Quinn left in 2015, and a "born again" Pete Carroll, who has confessed that he needs to loosen up his grip and be more open to change. Can you teach a new dog old tricks?

To be fair, our defense wasn't helped by our offense last season. We had trouble moving the sticks. We were ranked 30th in total first downs. We were ranked in the bottom 1/3 in 3rd down conversions, dead last on 4th down. We had the 6th highest number of 3-and-outs. TOP is a function of both the offense and the defense.

But to answer your question, it's going to take a number of players having a breakout season if we expect significant improvement, players like Darrell Taylor and Jordyn Brooks. Mafe is going to have to be an immediate impact player. It's the 11th hour for LJ Collier, Marquise Blair, and Cody Barton. We're going to have to find a role for Jamal Adams, and he's going to have to stay healthy. He's had more surgeries playing for us than he's had interceptions.

Bottom line is that I don't have a high degree of expectation for this current group. But who knows. Perhaps Pete's turning a new leaf will re-invigorate this unit.

Pete got his wings clipped IMO. No public announcement but just based on things Pete has said I think JS has passed him . And listening to Clint Hurrt he’s no lap dog or whipping boy . It’s going to be his defense and with some of the draft picks and young guys and a bad trade banger with a coach that knows how to use him we’re gonna be much improved . Hurrt may well be our next head coach . Dynamic speaking doesn’t tackle anyone but I have faith .

[RiverDog]

Pete got his wings clipped IMO. No public announcement but just based on things Pete has said I think JS has passed him . And listening to Clint Hurrt he’s no lap dog or whipping boy . It’s going to be his defense and with some of the draft picks and young guys and a bad trade banger with a coach that knows how to use him we’re gonna be much improved . Hurrt may well be our next head coach . Dynamic speaking doesn’t tackle anyone but I have faith .

I'm not sure if he got his wings clipped or that he suddenly realized that the game was slipping past him. Turning in his worst season during his tenure, having to trade his best player, and reading all the speculation about the possibility of him getting fired must have been a wake up call for him. The draft is the biggest example of a change in attitude. No first or second round reaches. No trading down past good talent to accumulate a bunch of lower picks that other teams didn't want.

There's no evidence that there was a change in the relationship between Pete and JS.

[NorthHawk]

The defense has had no help from the offense the last few years as we became boom or bust offensively with the worst third down completion % and so predictably the worst third down conversion rate in the league at 33%. 4 games we had 4 3 and outs in a row . In one of those games we followed it up with a 4 and out . 5 punts in 16 plays . Yeah where is the defense .
We were 11th in points , a team with a superstar franchise guy should be able to average more than 21 points .
The D will be greatly improved .

The Defense has lacked a pass rush for the last 4 years including the Clowney year.
It was on pace to be the worst Defense in NFL history a couple of years ago. The Worst. Ever. Defense. Let that sink it a little.
That's not the Offense's fault. What it did do is force the Offense to play like they were always behind, but it isn't built to do that.
Even in the years surrounding that worst ever start, they were only a faint shadow of the LoB Defense of the past.
So how does an Offense keep pace with the other team when that team can march down the field and score and the Offense is
built to play close games? They were forced to open it up and we saw for a short time how good it could be. Then Pete stuck
his finger in the pie.

As far as the 3 and outs go? That's Peteball. The opposing Defenses knew what we were going to do and stuffed it. No imaginative formations
no pre snap motion, no running different plays from the same formations, very little if any runs to the edges. Just straight 1970s Offense.

What all this tells us is the team has fallen to pathetic lows under this regime. The talent is largely gone and we are in rebuild mode for the next few years.
All we have is hope that they can build a team better than they can maintain one because it seems we are stuck with them.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure if he got his wings clipped or that he suddenly realized that the game was slipping past him. Turning in his worst season during his tenure, having to trade his best player, and reading all the speculation about the possibility of him getting fired must have been a wake up call for him. The draft is the biggest example of a change in attitude. No first or second round reaches. No trading down past good talent to accumulate a bunch of lower picks that other teams didn't want.

There's no evidence that there was a change in the relationship between Pete and JS.

I got a similar feeling as HT from the interviews.
In previous years, Pete was the guy at the helm after the draft and this past year it was John. Pete at one point started to rein in the talk about the draft and John ignored him and continued on.
With this draft being so deep in players that are building blocks it makes sense that they didn't trade much. There was too much value to pass by so it would have been a glaring mistake to play
the silly games JS played in the past and whiffing on the draft.

Does this mean Pete had his wings clipped? No, but it has the feeling that something has changed. Maybe it's a voluntary move to be in a position to walk away or become less of a HC and more
of a player development or team builder (from a psychological PoV) than a hands on coach. After all, he will b 71 years old this year and he can see that the future is limited. Or maybe his wife
wants to do things while they still can and he's taking that into consideration. Who really knows outside of Pete Carroll?

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure if he got his wings clipped or that he suddenly realized that the game was slipping past him. Turning in his worst season during his tenure, having to trade his best player, and reading all the speculation about the possibility of him getting fired must have been a wake up call for him. The draft is the biggest example of a change in attitude. No first or second round reaches. No trading down past good talent to accumulate a bunch of lower picks that other teams didn't want.

There's no evidence that there was a change in the relationship between Pete and JS.

I got a similar feeling as HT from the interviews. In previous years, Pete was the guy at the helm after the draft and this past year it was John. Pete at one point started to rein in the talk about the draft and John ignored him and continued on.

With this draft being so deep in players that are building blocks it makes sense that they didn't trade much. There was too much value to pass by so it would have been a glaring mistake to play the silly games JS played in the past and whiffing on the draft.

Does this mean Pete had his wings clipped? No, but it has the feeling that something has changed. Maybe it's a voluntary move to be in a position to walk away or become less of a HC and more of a player development or team builder (from a psychological PoV) than a hands on coach. After all, he will b 71 years old this year and he can see that the future is limited. Or maybe his wife wants to do things while they still can and he's taking that into consideration. Who really knows outside of Pete Carroll?

Well, we agree that something changed. The scenario I suggested, ie worst season as a Hawk, the Russell divorce, and the rumors of his firing are IMO the most plausible explanation. I honestly think that if Pete would have been forced to give up some of his power that he would have resigned, but that's just a gut feeling based on some of the things he's demonstrated in the past that suggests a healthy self esteem.

[Aseahawkfan]

A lot of people are hanging their hats on our new DC, Clint Hurtt, our 3rd DC since Dan Quinn left in 2015, and a "born again" Pete Carroll, who has confessed that he needs to loosen up his grip and be more open to change. Can you teach a new dog old tricks?

To be fair, our defense wasn't helped by our offense last season. We had trouble moving the sticks. We were ranked 30th in total first downs. We were ranked in the bottom 1/3 in 3rd down conversions, dead last on 4th down. We had the 6th highest number of 3-and-outs. TOP is a function of both the offense and the defense.

But to answer your question, it's going to take a number of players having a breakout season if we expect significant improvement, players like Darrell Taylor and Jordyn Brooks. Mafe is going to have to be an immediate impact player. It's the 11th hour for LJ Collier, Marquise Blair, and Cody Barton. We're going to have to find a role for Jamal Adams, and he's going to have to stay healthy. He's had more surgeries playing for us than he's had interceptions.

Bottom line is that I don't have a high degree of expectation for this current group. But who knows. Perhaps Pete's turning a new leaf will re-invigorate this unit.

I don't think Pete has changed myself. Every time the offense goes in a direction he doesn't like, he pulls it in.

I don't think he'll be any different with the defense. It's his defense. His philosophy. A DC getting interviewed will always make it seem like he's the man and Pete will let them just like he does the OCs, but it's Pete's team at the end of the day, his name, and he knows defense better than Hurtt by a hundred country miles.

My thinking is this 3-4 idea is nothing more than Pete's LEO alignment. He won't use a real 3-4 as he doesn't care for a 3-4. It will be something more like Pete used when Clemons was here or what he used with Clay Matthews with maybe some additional looks using Jamal Adams as a pass rushing safety.

[Aseahawkfan]

Pete got his wings clipped IMO. No public announcement but just based on things Pete has said I think JS has passed him . And listening to Clint Hurrt he’s no lap dog or whipping boy . It’s going to be his defense and with some of the draft picks and young guys and a bad trade banger with a coach that knows how to use him we’re gonna be much improved . Hurrt may well be our next head coach . Dynamic speaking doesn’t tackle anyone but I have faith .

Nobody clipped Pete's wings. He just traded the franchise QB. He cut Bobby Wagner. He's the one making the changes with Schneider.

This is still Pete's teams. Hurtt will do what Pete tells him to do same as Waldron does or any other OC or DC that's been here. If they don't like it, then they'll be sent packing same as all the previous OCs and DCs and same as Russell Wilson was sent packing. Pete picks his OCs and DCs. No head coach I know of does otherwise save perhaps when Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan were forced to coexist because they liked Buddy Ryan so much. Ryan was a proven DC with a long resume. Hurtt is not that.

My buddy is high on Clint Hurtt too. I have to shrug. Pete is the defensive mastermind in Seattle. Hurtt doesn't know 1/10th of what Pete knows about defense. Pete is still the defensive mastermind on this team. It's part of what he's paid for. If he can't get the personnel to play at a high level, it means the talent is bad because Carroll is an absolutely stellar, top level defensive coach, one of the best in history. Hurtt is some guy learning under a master and being given the chance of a lifetime to learn defense under one of the best coaches to ever scheme a defense. He's not gonna override Pete. He doesn't have the experience to do that.

[Hawktawk]

Pete got his wings clipped IMO. No public announcement but just based on things Pete has said I think JS has passed him . And listening to Clint Hurrt he’s no lap dog or whipping boy . It’s going to be his defense and with some of the draft picks and young guys and a bad trade banger with a coach that knows how to use him we’re gonna be much improved . Hurrt may well be our next head coach . Dynamic speaking doesn’t tackle anyone but I have faith .

Nobody clipped Pete's wings. He just traded the franchise QB. He cut Bobby Wagner. He's the one making the changes with Schneider.

This is still Pete's teams. Hurtt will do what Pete tells him to do same as Waldron does or any other OC or DC that's been here. If they don't like it, then they'll be sent packing same as all the previous OCs and DCs and same as Russell Wilson was sent packing. Pete picks his OCs and DCs. No head coach I know of does otherwise save perhaps when Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan were forced to coexist because they liked Buddy Ryan so much. Ryan was a proven DC with a long resume. Hurtt is not that.

My buddy is high on Clint Hurtt too. I have to shrug. Pete is the defensive mastermind in Seattle. Hurtt doesn't know 1/10th of what Pete knows about defense. Pete is still the defensive mastermind on this team. It's part of what he's paid for. If he can't get the personnel to play at a high level, it means the talent is bad because Carroll is an absolutely stellar, top level defensive coach, one of the best in history. Hurtt is some guy learning under a master and being given the chance of a lifetime to learn defense under one of the best coaches to ever scheme a defense. He's not gonna override Pete. He doesn't have the experience to do that.

Pete’s comments about both Russ and Wags tells me the power had shifted after the Jodi meeting . PC said he didn’t want to trade Russ initially but was convinced of the ability to improve the team by JS. He flat out said he was hoping to work something out with wags and was almost surprised by his release.
Pete has seemingly been slightly demoted imo . It might be a good thing . Remember the year Holmgren got demoted we went to a super bowl . Not saying it’s our trajectory but I wouldn’t b shocked . Pc is gonna open a can of whip @ss on his doubters .

[Aseahawkfan]

Pete’s comments about both Russ and Wags tells me the power had shifted after the Jodi meeting . PC said he didn’t want to trade Russ initially but was convinced of the ability to improve the team by JS. He flat out said he was hoping to work something out with wags and was almost surprised by his release.
Pete has seemingly been slightly demoted imo . It might be a good thing . Remember the year Holmgren got demoted we went to a super bowl . Not saying it’s our trajectory but I wouldn’t b shocked . Pc is gonna open a can of whip @ss on his doubters .

I have seen zero to indicate Pete has been demoted. I don't believe at all JS was the architect of the Russ trade. I think Pete wanted to move on and John facilitated it. Pete is still king until I see him publicly demoted like Holmgren was. I don't think for a second JS would have traded Russ if Pete did not ok it. Pete is very much still running the show. He fired Ken Norton Jr. He traded Russ. He wanted to start over and go in a new direction.

So many people like to make these weird speculations from afar based on the words of a coach or player. That's not evidence of anything. We knew Holmgren was demoted because Allen hired a GM. We'll know Pete is demoted when they tell us or something else occurs. Pete has already stated his position is guaranteed in his contract. That means he made the decision to trade Russ, not JS. That power he already stated is part of his contract. He has final say on the roster, not JS. That means he cut BW too. PC and JS are lock step like they always been. The only time you'll know different is if you see PC fire JS or JS fire PC.

Pete may be prepping Clint Hurtt as his replacement. But that's about all I gather as a possibility from Pete. How do I know this? Because Pete gave Hurtt the Assistant Head Coach title. That title is usually given a coach is prepping a subordinate for a possible head coach position. Hurtt is getting the chance to make his name as DC.

If Hurtt is successful, you may see Pete retire or move into a FO position like Bill Walsh with Clint Hurtt taking over as head coach. If Hurtt isn't successful and the team flounders for a few years you may see a clean sweep of the current staff including Carroll and John and a new search for quality HC.

[RiverDog]

I'm with ASF on this one. First of all, the only person with the authority to 'clip wings' is Jody Allen, who is a relative newcomer to this business and has not given us any indication whatsoever that she has the intestinal fortitude to take on a coaching legend like Pete Carroll and tell him what he must do as a football coach. I can certainly see her demanding better results like a majority stockholder would of the CEO, but as far as the specifics of running the team, I seriously doubt that she's stupid enough to insist on specific changes like granting more authority to the GM. Secondly, it's doubtful that Pete would sit still for such a clipping, especially coming from such a novice like Jody. Pete is a very proud man with a large ego that laid down his ground rules when he first took the job. It doesn't pass the smell test.

I know next to nothing about Clint Hurtt other than what I've read about his bio. He doesn't have any head coaching or coordinator experience at any level so it would be a huge gamble to turn the reigns over to him after just a year or two. Not that I'm against huge gambles, but I don't think that we can make the assumption that he's going to be groomed as Pete's heir apparent. His resume is just too skinny and would pale in comparison to other HC candidates.

[c_hawkbob]

Pete and John are just doing Pete and John. They were able to convince Jody that it would be better to trade Russ (as I am sure her Vulcan advisors made sure she knew that keeping Russ and firing Pete and John was also a viable course) and attempt to recreate the 2012-2015 model of a low cost QB and assets to devote to strengthen the team elsewhere, leaning heavily on youth.

I don't believe there was any clipping of Pete's wings either, other than perhaps an ultimatum to have enough success in the next couple years to justify her choice. She doesn't have enough football knowledge to micro-manage football minds like Pete Carroll and John Schneider.

I believe she made the wrong choice, but that's her prerogative. The Seahawks are still my team and I'll still be rooting for them, but I expect some major changes to come a couple years down the road to try and correct course.

[RiverDog]

Pete and John are just doing Pete and John. They were able to convince Jody that it would be better to trade Russ (as I am sure her Vulcan advisors made sure she knew that keeping Russ and firing Pete and John was also a viable course) and attempt to recreate the 2012-2015 model of a low cost QB and assets to devote to strengthen the team elsewhere, leaning heavily on youth.

I don't believe there was any clipping of Pete's wings either, other than perhaps an ultimatum to have enough success in the next couple years to justify her choice. She doesn't have enough football knowledge to micro-manage football minds like Pete Carroll and John Schneider.

I believe she made the wrong choice, but that's her prerogative. The Seahawks are still my team and I'll still be rooting for them, but I expect some major changes to come a couple years down the road to try and correct course.

Excellent post. The only thing that I would even slightly disagree with would be the last part of your last sentence. If we do a complete face plant this season, I think it is entirely possible that Jody pulls the trigger this year rather than waiting a couple of years. There was a lot of pressure for her to fire Pete this past offseason, which would only increase if we have another bad year.

[c_hawkbob]

Thank you Sir, I do not disagree with your addendum.

[Hawktawk]

I'm with ASF on this one. First of all, the only person with the authority to 'clip wings' is Jody Allen, who is a relative newcomer to this business and has not given us any indication whatsoever that she has the intestinal fortitude to take on a coaching legend like Pete Carroll and tell him what he must do as a football coach. I can certainly see her demanding better results like a majority stockholder would of the CEO, but as far as the specifics of running the team, I seriously doubt that she's stupid enough to insist on specific changes like granting more authority to the GM. Secondly, it's doubtful that Pete would sit still for such a clipping, especially coming from such a novice like Jody. Pete is a very proud man with a large ego that laid down his ground rules when he first took the job. It doesn't pass the smell test.

I know next to nothing about Clint Hurtt other than what I've read about his bio. He doesn't have any head coaching or coordinator experience at any level so it would be a huge gamble to turn the reigns over to him after just a year or two. Not that I'm against huge gambles, but I don't think that we can make the assumption that he's going to be groomed as Pete's heir apparent. His resume is just too skinny and would pale in comparison to other HC candidates.

I think your assessment of Jodi Allen is completely 100 % wrong . Her public comments about wanting people that are all in after the trade made plain her personal anger at what had been forced to happen , she was all over this off-season . She cleaned house with the trailblazers already . She chose Pete over a 35 million guy who didn’t want to play here anyway . She’s not intimidated by Carroll or anyone else . She made the right decision too.

[NorthHawk]

What you are wrong about is Russell didn't want to play for Pete Carroll anymore, not that he didn't want to play in Seattle.
It's a big difference.

[c_hawkbob]

She chose Pete over a 35 million guy who didn’t want to play here anyway

Is it Sept 12th already? (not that I actually expected it to last ...)

[Aseahawkfan]

I think your assessment of Jodi Allen is completely 100 % wrong . Her public comments about wanting people that are all in after the trade made plain her personal anger at what had been forced to happen , she was all over this off-season . She cleaned house with the trailblazers already . She chose Pete over a 35 million guy who didn’t want to play here anyway . She’s not intimidated by Carroll or anyone else . She made the right decision too.

No one said Pete Carroll initimidated her, yet here you are creating narratives no one implied or said.

We're just saying there is zero indication Pete Carroll's wings have been clipped as you put it. No evidence whatsoever. No change in title. No John Schneider show he has power of Carroll. Pete still runs the show and Jody is on board with it.

You're trying so hard to push your narrative on all levels that you're like that meme of the guy saying "Everything is fine" while the house is burning down. Everything isn't fine. We're in the middle of a rebuild. We have a lot of rookies that are going to have to perform like Pro Bowl superstars in year 1 for your narrative to play out, which I've never seen in the 35 plus years I've been watching football. You haven't seen it either, but you for some reason aren't willing to admit it for "reasons."

You seem to think the two rookie tackles and I just listened to Shane Waldron say we're probably starting two rookie tackles are both going to perform like pro bowlers from game 1. That's just a ridiculous expectation that I've never seen occur.

[Hawktawk]

She chose Pete over a 35 million guy who didn’t want to play here anyway
Is it Sept 12th already? (not that I actually expected it to last ...)

Yeah you can talk about how she made the wrong decision but I say she made the right decision and point out her public comments regarding it and then main reason it happened and it isn’t Sept 12 yet . Did you notice let’s ride Russ threw a pick on his first pass of his career in Denver in otas? Pressure . Sept 12 can’t get here soon enough

[Hawktawk]

No one said Pete Carroll initimidated her, yet here you are creating narratives no one implied or said.

We're just saying there is zero indication Pete Carroll's wings have been clipped as you put it. No evidence whatsoever. No change in title. No John Schneider show he has power of Carroll. Pete still runs the show and Jody is on board with it.

You're trying so hard to push your narrative on all levels that you're like that meme of the guy saying "Everything is fine" while the house is burning down. Everything isn't fine. We're in the middle of a rebuild. We have a lot of rookies that are going to have to perform like Pro Bowl superstars in year 1 for your narrative to play out, which I've never seen in the 35 plus years I've been watching football. You haven't seen it either, but you for some reason aren't willing to admit it for "reasons."

You seem to think the two rookie tackles and I just listened to Shane Waldron say we're probably starting two rookie tackles are both going to perform like pro bowlers from game 1. That's just a ridiculous expectation that I've never seen occur.

I said she was not intimidated by Carroll . I read numerous posts saying she wasn’t equipped to challenge him in one fashion or another . I look at the team and I say yes these 2 rookie tackles may be good enough and will almost certainly be an improvement over last year . We have filthy talent on the roster . On both sides of the ball . I’m going to trust that the great Pete Carroll has it in him to make this team a winner this year . I don’t think he would have stayed otherwise . Why ? Why trade the greatest quarterback in the history of the franchise to go 5–12 and get Fired ? Why tarnish a borderline hall of fame career going out as a loser who lost Wilson .
Pete plans to compete for a championship this season and he’s a great enough coach to pull it off . And I’ve been watching football for 52 years . Played football . Coached football .

[obiken]

We lost Wags who was a tackling machine, we are switching to a 3-4, and we no one of any importance. Sorry, I see DOOM, ours!

[Hawktawk]

We lost Wags who was a tackling machine, we are switching to a 3-4, and we no one of any importance. Sorry, I see DOOM, ours!

Jordyn Brooks led the team in tackles and his were near the line of scrimmage . Wagner was catching guys 10 yards downfield .

Wags was a great Hawks , one of the absolute best ever but he was losing his range and aggression for 20 million a year which is why our defense was soft in the middle . You can’t build a defense around a guy who isn’t himself any more . I heard Dave Wyman refer to him as a finesse linebacker at this stage of his career . It wasn’t just Russ who turned in some of his worst PFF grades of his career last season.
We will be fine at linebacker . We will never replace Bobby or Russ in ther prime but we will be an improvement over who they had become . I’ve seen this process lots of times in 4 decades .

We never had a coach great as this to walk us through the transition for the second time . Rumors of our demise are greatly exxagerated

[RiverDog]

We lost Wags who was a tackling machine, we are switching to a 3-4, and we no one of any importance. Sorry, I see DOOM, ours!

Jordyn Brooks led the team in tackles and his were near the line of scrimmage . Wagner was catching guys 10 yards downfield .

Wags was a great Hawks , one of the absolute best ever but he was losing his range and aggression for 20 million a year which is why our defense was soft in the middle . You can’t build a defense around a guy who isn’t himself any more . I heard Dave Wyman refer to him as a finesse linebacker at this stage of his career.

I'm with HT on this one. Wagner's tackling totals were very deceiving. They were a function of our league worst TOP in that he had one heck of a lot more defensive snaps to accumulate those tackles than his counterparts on other teams. Although I don't like the way it was handled, it was time to move on from him, especially given that we're heading into a rebuild phase and that we're moving to a 3-4 defense that doesn't feature a true Mike like Bobby was.

But I do agree with Obi on the 'doom' part. HT, I hope you live in a single story house.

[TriCitySam]

Despite those who believe they know more than Pete, they do not. Pete knows football, wants to win and is fully behind the move to 3-4. I feel we will see real improvement. The we have some good young players who improved as the year went on: Taylor, Brooks, Robinson, etc. A healthy Jamal along with Diggs, Blair and Barton will help, as well as some good new talent in Mafe, Harris , etc. I liked Wags and KJ, but we needed to move on, their best play was in the rear view mirror. Youth and enthusiasm will equal wins.

[NorthHawk]

Nobody said Pete doesn't know Defense.
Rather after 40+ years of playing one type of Defense, it's out of character that he would suddenly change to a new system.
That being said, he hasn't been able to develop a pass rush for 4 or 5 years, so maybe for him it's desperate times.

[RiverDog]

Despite those who believe they know more than Pete, they do not.

I'm not sure who you're directing that to, but there's a difference between thinking that the game might have passed him by, as I do, and professing to know more about the subject than he does.

Pete knows football, wants to win and is fully behind the move to 3-4. I feel we will see real improvement. The we have some good young players who improved as the year went on: Taylor, Brooks, Robinson, etc. A healthy Jamal along with Diggs, Blair and Barton will help, as well as some good new talent in Mafe, Harris , etc. I liked Wags and KJ, but we needed to move on, their best play was in the rear view mirror. Youth and enthusiasm will equal wins.

The fact that Pete knows football has never been questioned by anyone in here. As far as his being fully behind the move to the 3-4, it's hard to tell exactly how committed he feels about it. It could be a matter of him wanting to experiment a little then returning to his 'home' if things don't go as hoped.

Agreed about moving on from KJ and Wags, although I will say that one of KJ's best seasons was the last one he played for us. But obviously, he wasn't in our future and retaining him would have taken away snaps from the younger guys.

[Hawktawk]

Tri City Sam . The other guy with clear vision . Rd I hope you live in a single story with all the doom and gloom plus the vision issyes you might fall down the stairs . If the worst thing that happens is I’m wrong about my observations and gut instinct oh well . I won’t ghost you all . I’ll take the razzing .
But I’ve been right a few times . Who had us beating the Saints in 2010 beast quake ? I felt good enough to spend a grand going and sat at camera angle for the play . The stadium wasn’t full , most were saints fans . Hawks fans were in paper bags . Hass threw a pick early and I think we were down 10 . My bro texted “ we suck” i said we will be tied in 5 minutes .

Or 2005 off a brutal 9-8 3 loss to rams at home after a 3-0 start . I felt it when Hass was pounding his fists on the turf after the final incompletion . Sitting in Incas shooting tequilas with what s ur prob swapping back and forth wearing his Largent autographed old school helmet screaming GO HAWKS! Demoted coach , weak defense , 1 star player in a skill position, SA. 13-3.

I feel it and I see the ingredients to make it happen .

[TriCitySam]

"I'm not sure who you're directing that to, but there's a difference between thinking that the game might have passed him by, as I do, and professing to know more about the subject than he does."

I think we disagree on this point. In my view, if you know and understand the game, you would also recognize if the "game has passed you by". Not the case with Pete, I think he understands change and what you're seeing is is response. He has core beliefs that are still held by almost every coach in the NFL: strong D, solid running game, winning turnover ratio is the key to sustained success, something few have achieved. But Pete has.

[Aseahawkfan]

Tri City Sam . The other guy with clear vision . Rd I hope you live in a single story with all the doom and gloom plus the vision issyes you might fall down the stairs . If the worst thing that happens is I’m wrong about my observations and gut instinct oh well . I won’t ghost you all . I’ll take the razzing .
But I’ve been right a few times . Who had us beating the Saints in 2010 beast quake ? I felt good enough to spend a grand going and sat at camera angle for the play . The stadium wasn’t full , most were saints fans . Hawks fans were in paper bags . Hass threw a pick early and I think we were down 10 . My bro texted “ we suck” i said we will be tied in 5 minutes .

Or 2005 off a brutal 9-8 3 loss to rams at home after a 3-0 start . I felt it when Hass was pounding his fists on the turf after the final incompletion . Sitting in Incas shooting tequilas with what s ur prob swapping back and forth wearing his Largent autographed old school helmet screaming GO HAWKS! Demoted coach , weak defense , 1 star player in a skill position, SA. 13-3.

I feel it and I see the ingredients to make it happen .

A realistic view and doom and gloom two different things. Why would I expect rookies to perform like pro bowlers in Year 1 and compete for a Super Bowl when some of the best rookies we ever had on this team didn't do that? You gonna be disappointed if Charles Cross and Lucas have growing pains playing tackle at the NFL while Geno and Lock suffer for it? You gonna be pissed off if Mafe isn't a double digit sack player in year 1? You gonna be unhappy if our 5th round CBs aren't the second coming of Richard Sherman in year 1? You gonna be unhappy if Jordyn Brooks doesn't read and set up the defense as well as Bobby Wagner who played with an elite unit for most of his career?

All most of us have is a realistic view of a what a rebuild with rookies looks like while you're somehow expecting pro bowl performances from the rookie class on top of pro bowl advancement in QB play, RB, O-line, D-line, secondary, and every unit we have because the QB you think was some kind of anchor is gone. It's a completely unrealistic viewpoint that Pete Carroll and John Schneider don't even have.

We have a new rookie class of guys at key positions. They gotta learn the game and see they can step up to the big leagues. Having a losing season and not competing for a Super Bowl when you have rookie tackles, a new MLB, 5th round CBs you hope at least one can step up and show some promise is not doom and gloom. It's the same viewpoint most of us held 12 years ago when we were starting a rebuild after getting rid of Hass and other cornerstones of the Seahawks team of old.

Why would I expect a group of rookies to come into the league and play at a pro bowl level? We'll be lucky if one guy does that and in your mind the entire rookie class is apparently going to do that. Next year in your mind is some kind of "Super Year" of completely unheard of performances by every single player on the Seahawks. Lock or Geno are Pro Bowl QBs. Penny is going to stay healthy and be a generational running back to rival Marshawn and Alexander. Both of our rookie tackles are going to be Walter Jones reborn. Mafe is going to come out of the gate sacking the QB like Cliff Avril in his prime. And our 5th round CBs are going to be Richard Sherman reborn. It's all gonna come together perfectly to compete for a Super Bowl in their first year even though this has never happened for any team I have ever known in the history the NFL.

But ok. If that what's make all of this work for you, then have your dream.

I just want to see some of the rookies show promise. If I see 3 or 4 show promise, that will be a good draft class. Even during our very best drafts like the 2012 class, we had about 4 guys show promise with Russell and Bobby turning into Pro Bowlers. That's the kind of thing I want to see next year. I don't mind losing a few years during a rebuild if I see the rookies advancing same as I didn't mind when Pete first got here.

[Aseahawkfan]

"I'm not sure who you're directing that to, but there's a difference between thinking that the game might have passed him by, as I do, and professing to know more about the subject than he does."

I think we disagree on this point. In my view, if you know and understand the game, you would also recognize if the "game has passed you by". Not the case with Pete, I think he understands change and what you're seeing is is response. He has core beliefs that are still held by almost every coach in the NFL: strong D, solid running game, winning turnover ratio is the key to sustained success, something few have achieved. But Pete has.

And another key is roster maintenance and rebuilding. That is an area we haven't done too well at the past 3 or 4 years.

I don't question Pete's coaching at all myself. I think his offensive and defensive philosophies work. I do question JS and PCs roster maintenance which has provably failed on defense for quite some time as he has been unable to adequately replace the D-line and secondary since it fell apart. Those are both key units to an effective defense. The only thing that has maintained are the LBs and passing game. Pete just sent the main component of a good passing game to Denver pushing his chips all in on using the draft capital to rebuild. We'll see how it works.

But make no mistake. This is Pete's final hand and if it fails, he's gone. He's got no chips left. He just spent his stack on a bet that has to work sending Russell to Denver. If it doesn't, I seriously doubt ownership is gonna tolerate it.

They don't call him Big Balls Pete for nothing. I can't think of any coaches or GMs who traded their franchise QB to start a rebuild. If Pete makes this work, you might see it happen more often. This move is a high risk, high reward move that will either succeed or fail spectacularly.

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure who you're directing that to, but there's a difference between thinking that the game might have passed him by, as I do, and professing to know more about the subject than he does.

I think we disagree on this point. In my view, if you know and understand the game, you would also recognize if the "game has passed you by".

I agree that we disagree on that point.

As humans, we have two sides of our brain that perform certain functions. The left side is more analytical, more logical, more mathematical. It's the Mr. Spock from Star Trek. The right side is where we get our emotions, intuition, non verbal cues, imagination, and our egos. It is entirely possible that a person could have a very clear understanding of a subject, ie in the left side of their brain, but if the right side of their brain is dominant, it may not allow a person to recognize when their left side knowledge no longer applies.

Here's an example: I have a close friend, a retired scientist and a PhD, that I can't convince that he doesn't have to write checks, keep track of them in a register, and balance his checkbook each month, that he can do the same thing electronically with a credit card. He doesn't recognize that his personal finance skills he learned and practiced over decades are no longer necessary to maintain a good handle on his personal finances. But he's too God dammed stubborn to admit that it's easier and more efficient to use a credit card (not to mention the rewards he's leaving on the table). The right side of his brain rules the left, at least on the topic of personal finance.

Therefore, it is entirely possible that Pete has a superior knowledge of the game yet he's too damn stubborn to admit that his knowledge no longer applies, ie that the game has passed him by.

[Hawktawk]

The game has passed him by . Mmmhhhmm . Just more fuel for the fire . He’s the youngest 70 year old guy I’ve ever seen . He’s had to listen to people like north say Jodi should have canned Pete instead of a guy who had become mr September but wanted to run the offense . Now I see let’s ride Russell will be expecting a 5 year 250 million dollar deal maybe guaranteed from Denver . And they are our first victims . They will be looking for the flight data recorder after PC absolutely shuts down Russ. Then let’s see who can coach .

[RiverDog]

The game has passed him by . Mmmhhhmm . Just more fuel for the fire . He’s the youngest 70 year old guy I’ve ever seen . He’s had to listen to people like north say Jodi should have canned Pete instead of a guy who had become mr September but wanted to run the offense . Now I see let’s ride Russell will be expecting a 5 year 250 million dollar deal maybe guaranteed from Denver . And they are our first victims . They will be looking for the flight data recorder after PC absolutely shuts down Russ. Then let’s see who can coach .

You're like a broken record with your predictions. Reading your prognostications is like listening to Mike Lindell advertising "My Pillow" .

I agree that Pete is the physically the youngest 70 year old I've ever seen, at least as far as males go. I'm 66 and I don't look half as good as he does.

But we don't know how old Pete is mentally. Age has a way of making you think that your experience and time on the job gives you an inside track to wisdom, like a seniority system in a union plant. Is he like my best friend, so stubborn that he won't change simply because his ego won't let him? Or is he insightful enough to recognize that he needs to adapt his style to the new NFL in order to re-capture his magic?

Neither of us know the answer to that question. I've seen some signs that say maybe he is, but we won't know until this September at the earliest.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree that we disagree on that point.

As humans, we have two sides of our brain that perform certain functions. The left side is more analytical, more logical, more mathematical. It's the Mr. Spock from Star Trek. The right side is where we get our emotions, intuition, non verbal cues, imagination, and our egos. It is entirely possible that a person could have a very clear understanding of a subject, ie in the left side of their brain, but if the right side of their brain is dominant, it may not allow a person to recognize when their left side knowledge no longer applies.

Here's an example: I have a close friend, a retired scientist and a PhD, that I can't convince that he doesn't have to write checks, keep track of them in a register, and balance his checkbook each month, that he can do the same thing electronically with a credit card. He doesn't recognize that his personal finance skills he learned and practiced over decades are no longer necessary to maintain a good handle on his personal finances. But he's too God dammed stubborn to admit that it's easier and more efficient to use a credit card (not to mention the rewards he's leaving on the table). The right side of his brain rules the left, at least on the topic of personal finance.

Therefore, it is entirely possible that Pete has a superior knowledge of the game yet he's too damn stubborn to admit that his knowledge no longer applies, ie that the game has passed him by.

I don't write checks too often, I get every receipt I can. I balance my checkbook every week. Sure, the vast majority of the time everything is fine, but occasional mistakes can happen and I like to know how much money I'm supposed to have at a given time rather than what might be there when I login to check because some transactions haven't been processed. I'm very careful with my money. You don't want to be asleep at the wheel if you get hacked or something happens to your cash.

And the game hasn't passed Pete by. It hasn't changed that much. I'm still not sure what proof you have that it has. This whole equation is really simple: we lack talent. We can track the lack of talent from the success of the draft picks, injury histories, performance of players we traded for, and the like. Schemes are absolutely fine. Schemes don't work without talent. You could come up with the best scheme ever made, no one has ever seen it, it is absolutely amazing, but if you have QB Gomer Pyle behind center it won't matter.

That's why I keep asking for the "We're doing great" believers to point out to me the talent. Not the obvious talent like Tyler Lockett and DK Metcalf. Great that Pete and John finally drafted some elite receivers, then decided to trade away the elite QB. But where's the similar talent on the O-line, D-line, secondary, and at RB? I don't mean 5 game Penney in year 4, I'm talking the past 4 years.

We're talent deficient. Not scheme deficient or coaching deficient. JS and PC have missed too often on trades and draft picks to replenish talent at key positions. That has little to do with the "game passing them by" and far too much to do with them taking too many risks on trades and their unconventional draft picks.

[RiverDog]

And the game hasn't passed Pete by. It hasn't changed that much. I'm still not sure what proof you have that it has.

Are you kidding me? You've cited the proof yourself. Pete's trades, his draft picks, his failure to put together a pass rush, the descent of our defense from the best in this century to the worst. The reason why we constantly trade down is that Pete believes that his system is so superior that he can find players in the later rounds to fit it, a pattern he changed in just this last draft. That's what allowed him to trade for Adams, because he didn't think he needed those high draft picks to build a great defense, that his system, which includes his player evaluation, was superior to all others.

If his scheme is so good and relevant, why is he changing it? Why is he going to a 3-4?

[Hawktawk]

You're like a broken record with your predictions. Reading your prognostications is like listening to Mike Lindell advertising "My Pillow" .

I agree that Pete is the physically the youngest 70 year old I've ever seen, at least as far as males go. I'm 66 and I don't look half as good as he does.

But we don't know how old Pete is mentally. Age has a way of making you think that your experience and time on the job gives you an inside track to wisdom, like a seniority system in a union plant. Is he like my best friend, so stubborn that he won't change simply because his ego won't let him? Or is he insightful enough to recognize that he needs to adapt his style to the new NFL in order to re-capture his magic?

Neither of us know the answer to that question. I've seen some signs that say maybe he is, but we won't know until this September at the earliest.

It’s clear from the coaching hire he’s adapted . He publicly said he had gotten “ arrogant “
Or words to that effect . I know he will be adapted well enough Sept 12 . And explain why repeating my optimism is a broken record and you guys finding 1000 ways to say Pete sucks over and over isn’t ? It’s only if you disagree .

[tarlhawk]

Are you kidding me? You've cited the proof yourself. Pete's trades, his draft picks, his failure to put together a pass rush, the descent of our defense from the best in this century to the worst. The reason why we constantly trade down is that Pete believes that his system is so superior that he can find players in the later rounds to fit it, a pattern he changed in just this last draft. That's what allowed him to trade for Adams, because he didn't think he needed those high draft picks to build a great defense, that his system, which includes his player evaluation, was superior to all others.

If his scheme is so good and relevant, why is he changing it? Why is he going to a 3-4?

Your reasoning has some salient points but is nothing more than a putdown by an irritated fan...which is ok...especially on this site.

Pete Carroll is big enough to shoulder the criticisms tossed his way...but just like RW we are blessed as a team to have him...be real ...Seattle had no real football fervor (that has grown into a reknown nation wide image of winning football) until Pete arrived with the perfect GM complement in John Schneider. The "twelves" found an institutionalized winning environment as something they could trust and amp up the excitement for. I loved Dave Krieg /Curt Warner /Steve Largent /Kenny Easley and Shaun Alexander and the WWE personality of the BOZ...but I wasn't sold on giving my personal investment of emotions until the arrival of Pete and John in 2010...with my "introduction" being the 2010 ESPN Draft which I always watched since the arrival of ESPN sports coverage.

Trades are often the result of a "need" now ...vice a cultivated draft selection. Most NFL teams are not "stupid" ...trades have built in risks as teams aren't likely to pull the trigger on a deal for a play maker (Defensive or Offensive) who is vital...or even deemed vital to the team you are trying to pry him away from...the risk being "how much" was offered and what is the "fit" of the player you're seeking...don't go to the "grocer" on an "empty stomach". We have had good trades (Lynch/D.Brown/Q.Diggs/J.Coleman) so-so "rental trades" (Clowney/S.Richardson) and "Bad" trades (P.Harvin/J.Grahm...and the possible "bad fit" trade for J. Adams). Trades are seldom "realized" at the time they are made ...so "home grown" tortoise mode potential has less risk than a rabbit mode "quick fix" from another team's fortunes/misfortunes.


To me...draft criticism of any magnitude is like criticizing anyones "technique" in how they purchase lottery tickets...or the timing of buying stocks...you try to learn as much as you can using available resources of "stock" you're interested in ...but when to buy and opportunity... heavily slant your success. The NFL draft is like buying future stocks with the limitations of the lottery system thrown in...as a GM and Head Coach you might know which "stock" to invest in...but the NFL hedges against winning monopolies by making the better winning teams "wait" while losing teams get first dibbs on the "blue chip" investments. "Trading down" is not arrogance...its the logic of "penny stocks" Vs normal sound stocks...a value of quantity guesses over "staying put" guessing.

Pass Rush "focus" defines every NFL team's goals...when you draft one (your team is blessed)...trading for one is almost always expensive...and your defensive schemes and coverage abilities play heavily into pass rush success. Aaron Donalds impact would be weakened if his team mates in the secondary were "weak". Your defense as a whole has to create some hesitation for the opponents QB to allow your pass rush to "deliver". Defensive "arrogance" is giving the opponents QB the comfort of knowing his pre snap "reads" are going to mirror what he sees post snap...last year we showed a 94% pre snap/post snap mirror.

The "fall" of our defense has more "details in the weeds" than just stats and game impact alone. The "tinkering" of utilizing some "Tampa Two" coverage (which is aptly named for Tony Dungee...who had the benefit of strong pass rushers) "confused" our own players more than it "hurt" the opposing teams offense. It requires both safeties to drop back into coverage and "split" responsibility of deep coverage. Jamal Adams excels at commit and attack (similar to a LB role) and less of a wait and react coverage role...this early miss use of J. Adams skill set gave a steep learning curve which J.Adams began to improve on ...just as he suffered injury. Our pass rush stumbled after the Indy season opener and relied more on scheme aggression vice individual skill impact. Same failure at "bear front" looks as our DE's were not as athletic as OLB's in coverage drops so many "underneath" quick throws soon exposed our defense to bleeding from a "thousand cuts". The 3-4 base needs a secondary that mirrors (gets sticky) early on wr routes mixing in more man coverage than just plain cover two/cover three zone. Aggression play makers like J. Adams should thrive more in this defensive "shift".

Petes "Cover 3" excellence begged for an Offensive "guru" to "slay it"...Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan delivered "answers"..."flood zone" and "same look" variations took advantage of NFL rule changes that opened up the "middle /quick read" routes that used to be "enter at risk" zones for WR and TE...the emergence of speedy "slot receivers" also resulted in a defensive tilt down while offenses bloomed and ran up scores.

Pete's defensive scheme has shifted out of necessity and he has brought in "outside" help in coaching (Desai/Scott) and elevated Hurtt to implement "change"...and targeted draft selections/free agents to "mold" into this "shift". Coby Bryant and Tariq Woolen have landed in "defensive back" college with the coaching we have on board and Sidney Jones/Tre Brown/Artie Burns can "lead the way".