Poll: How many games will we win in 2022?

[RiverDog]

Jimmy Graham was a textbook case of trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. He wasn't a true inline tight end as he was soft and a horrible blocker, especially when at the time, our offensive line needed support from the tight end. Not only that, but with the exception of his last year with us, he never developed into the red zone threat that was one of the primary justification for bringing him in in the first place. I don't care how the deal came about, but we got hosed. It was a bust of a trade that hurt us by giving up a Pro Bowl center without a viable replacement other than "next man up!"

I can't say as I disagree. Like I said, Carroll has "Shiny Toy" disease where you see something that looks real good on someone else's team, but when you bring it to your team it doesn't work out so well.

I feel like Carroll reached a point where he got bored of his methodology and tried to grab a few risky players he thought he could make work. Then again when does Pete ever admit he can't make something work. He thought he could change Percy Harvin and he found out the hard way Harvin was an incorrigible selfish jackass.

It's this kind of stuff that pisses me off when I hear criticism of Russell, while someone like hawktawk makes excuses for the Percy Harvin trade. Percy Harvin was a real locker room cancer. Harvin was an extremely selfish player all about how he wanted to do things and not at all team oriented. Just a jerk of a player and a human being who did not enough for this team to justify the trade. Literally tried to hit Doug Baldwin and just acted like a complete selfish jackass while here.

I hear people making excuses for this guy? Really? While you're talking about Russell Wilson being bad for the team or what not? Get real.

To me the Percy Harvin trade was a terrible trade. We didn't need him. He did next to nothing for us. He was a true locker room cancer that was a waste of money and picks. I would have rather have spent the 1st round pick on some other player.

You forgot Harvin's insubordination, refusing to go into the game when he was told, which was the straw that broke the camel's back. The locker room cancer was so great that it caused players to take sides. Beast almost didn't board the team bus for the flight to StL when news of the Harvin trade broke. That's about the same time that the crapola about Russell not being black enough got going. That's what a locker room cancer looks like. Worst trade in Seahawk history, and the red flags were obvious.

Jimmy Graham at least wasn't a locker room cancer. Neither is Jamal Adams. I can at least look at a trade for a guy who gives everything he's got to try to help us win in some positive light. Whereas Harvin was just bad trade all the way around other than a few highlight reel plays we didn't even need.

Agreed. IMO Harvin was the worst trade, followed by Graham then Adams. By all accounts, Jamal Adams is a tremendous guy in the locker room, very positive influence.

[Hawktawk]

Hardly one of our worst trades. Jesus . Dude set team records and that was with being extremely badly hurt . Hindsight is 2020. It’s easy drafting and trading that way . look real smart .

What is this, a fantasy football forum? So he put up some good numbers. BFD. He didn't contribute to the success of the team. I would rate the trade for Jimmy Graham as one of the three worst trades that Pete has made since he's been here, the other two being the Harvin trade and Jamal Adams, of whom the jury is still out.

We'll start calling you Stevie Wonder if you thought he was a good fit for our offense.[/quote]


If he set team records for a tight end I think he contributed to the offense somewhat you think ?As I’ve said he was injured badly his first year and I found it remarkable he was able to return and set team records the following season . Lots of things go into winning in the postseason and we didn’t win with or without he or Unger . Team records equals HT isn’t Stevie wonder .

[RiverDog]

Hardly one of our worst trades. Jesus . Dude set team records and that was with being extremely badly hurt . Hindsight is 2020. It’s easy drafting and trading that way . look real smart .

What is this, a fantasy football forum? So he put up some good numbers. BFD. He didn't contribute to the success of the team. I would rate the trade for Jimmy Graham as one of the three worst trades that Pete has made since he's been here, the other two being the Harvin trade and Jamal Adams, of whom the jury is still out.

We'll start calling you Stevie Wonder if you thought he was a good fit for our offense.[/quote]

If he set team records for a tight end I think he contributed to the offense somewhat you think ?

No! I don't care what kind of records he set, he did not contribute to winning football. You said it yourself: How may playoff games have we won since 2015? Plus you have to figure into the equation what not having Unger in the lineup meant and what a soft inline tight end meant to a run first offense.

As I’ve said he was injured badly his first year and I found it remarkable he was able to return and set team records the following season . Lots of things go into winning in the postseason and we didn’t win with or without he or Unger . Team records equals HT isn’t Stevie wonder .

I don't care what injuries he had. He was well known well before the trade as a soft player that hated to block. He was not the type of player that fit the mold of what Pete Carrol supposedly wanted in a player for his team. and he didn't help us achieve our goal of being a serious challenger to another Super Bowl. It was a stupid, nonsensical trade.

[Hawktawk]

Jimmy Graham was a textbook case of trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. He wasn't a true inline tight end as he was soft and a horrible blocker, especially when at the time, our offensive line needed support from the tight end. Not only that, but with the exception of his last year with us, he never developed into the red zone threat that was one of the primary justification for bringing him in in the first place. I don't care how the deal came about, but we got hosed. It was a bust of a trade that hurt us by giving up a Pro Bowl center without a viable replacement other than "next man up!"

I can't say as I disagree. Like I said, Carroll has "Shiny Toy" disease where you see something that looks real good on someone else's team, but when you bring it to your team it doesn't work out so well.

I feel like Carroll reached a point where he got bored of his methodology and tried to grab a few risky players he thought he could make work. Then again when does Pete ever admit he can't make something work. He thought he could change Percy Harvin and he found out the hard way Harvin was an incorrigible selfish jackass.

It's this kind of stuff that pisses me off when I hear criticism of Russell, while someone like hawktawk makes excuses for the Percy Harvin trade. Percy Harvin was a real locker room cancer. Harvin was an extremely selfish player all about how he wanted to do things and not at all team oriented. Just a jerk of a player and a human being who did not enough for this team to justify the trade. Literally tried to hit Doug Baldwin and just acted like a complete selfish jackass while here.

I hear people making excuses for this guy? Really? While you're talking about Russell Wilson being bad for the team or what not? Get real.

To me the Percy Harvin trade was a terrible trade. We didn't need him. He did next to nothing for us. He was a true locker room cancer that was a waste of money and picks. I would have rather have spent the 1st round pick on some other player.

Jimmy Graham at least wasn't a locker room cancer. Neither is Jamal Adams. I can at least look at a trade for a guy who gives everything he's got to try to help us win in some positive light. Whereas Harvin was just bad trade all the way around other than a few highlight reel plays we didn't even need.[/quote]

What really pisses me off is when people can’t pick up what I’m putting down . As a trade from a team benefit over term of contract Harvin was an absolute disaster . And it was Tate he body slammed the night before the super bowl. But hear me out .
If the goal is to be the world champions Harvin paid off huge . He led the team in rushing with 41 yards on TWO CARRIES. Both jet sweeps with beautiful ball handling by Wilson . Lynch had 38 on 14. These were huge chunk plays putting the team in scoring position . He had a beautiful 1 handed grab of a high throw for another first down . Then there was the return which I believe may have been a 14 point swing . It was a perfect pooch kick bouncing high in the air with 3 guys steaming down on Harvin. He leaped up and high pointed the ball . The second his feet hit the ground he split everyone and goodbye . Anyone who thinks that return didn’t matter needs to rewind and look at Manning’s face as the architect of the greatest scoring offense in history realized it was truly out of reach .
If the goal is a Lombardi Harvin was worth it .

And it hasn’t got a damn thing to do with Russ either . Different subject by far .

[Aseahawkfan]

I can't say as I disagree. Like I said, Carroll has "Shiny Toy" disease where you see something that looks real good on someone else's team, but when you bring it to your team it doesn't work out so well.

I feel like Carroll reached a point where he got bored of his methodology and tried to grab a few risky players he thought he could make work. Then again when does Pete ever admit he can't make something work. He thought he could change Percy Harvin and he found out the hard way Harvin was an incorrigible selfish jackass.

It's this kind of stuff that pisses me off when I hear criticism of Russell, while someone like hawktawk makes excuses for the Percy Harvin trade. Percy Harvin was a real locker room cancer. Harvin was an extremely selfish player all about how he wanted to do things and not at all team oriented. Just a jerk of a player and a human being who did not enough for this team to justify the trade. Literally tried to hit Doug Baldwin and just acted like a complete selfish jackass while here.

I hear people making excuses for this guy? Really? While you're talking about Russell Wilson being bad for the team or what not? Get real.

To me the Percy Harvin trade was a terrible trade. We didn't need him. He did next to nothing for us. He was a true locker room cancer that was a waste of money and picks. I would have rather have spent the 1st round pick on some other player.

Jimmy Graham at least wasn't a locker room cancer. Neither is Jamal Adams. I can at least look at a trade for a guy who gives everything he's got to try to help us win in some positive light. Whereas Harvin was just bad trade all the way around other than a few highlight reel plays we didn't even need.

What really pisses me off is when people can’t pick up what I’m putting down . As a trade from a team benefit over term of contract Harvin was an absolute disaster . And it was Tate he body slammed the night before the super bowl. But hear me out .
If the goal is to be the world champions Harvin paid off huge . He led the team in rushing with 41 yards on TWO CARRIES. Both jet sweeps with beautiful ball handling by Wilson . Lynch had 38 on 14. These were huge chunk plays putting the team in scoring position . He had a beautiful 1 handed grab of a high throw for another first down . Then there was the return which I believe may have been a 14 point swing . It was a perfect pooch kick bouncing high in the air with 3 guys steaming down on Harvin. He leaped up and high pointed the ball . The second his feet hit the ground he split everyone and goodbye . Anyone who thinks that return didn’t matter needs to rewind and look at Manning’s face as the architect of the greatest scoring offense in history realized it was truly out of reach .
If the goal is a Lombardi Harvin was worth it .

And it hasn’t got a damn thing to do with Russ either . Different subject by far .

We didn't need those 41 yards.

When you're sitting there taking shots at Russ calling him a punk and a locker room cancer while defending the Harvin trade even now, then they aren't different subjects. It's a direct example of your bias and ridiculous analysis. It's clearly showing you have no leg to stand on and no ability to analyze what a locker room cancer is. Even now you defend that garbage Harvin trade claiming "It's all about a Lombardi." Russell did way, way, way more than Harvin to help us win a Lombardi and a third Conference Championship and almost a second Lombardi than Jackass Harvin. Russell gives us a way better shot at a Lombardi than Geno Smith and Drew Lock. So why isn't that about a Lombardi? The veteran QB that Pete and John could have forced to stay just like the GM in Green Bay forced Aaron Rodgers to stay certainly gives us a better shot at a Lombardi than Lock or Smith.

Yet you keep making it sound like Lock and Smith are better than Russ even though their numbers aren't even in the same ballpark as Russ. Russ literally obliterated Geno's number's over three games in a single game against Detroit. Russ's numbers in a down year are better than Geno's career numbers. Drew Lock has thrown 25 Tds and 20 ints in his entire three year career, which is a single injury year for Russ on TDs where you think he's all done and never going to play well again. Yet somehow you're just a "master analyst" and we're all "ignoring the numbers." You're the one ignoring the numbers. You're the one cherry picking moments and making them way bigger than they are.

Russ is better than Geno Smith or Drew Lock will ever be. He is better than Harvin and did more for this team to win a Super Bowl than Harvin by a country mile.

Harvin was a selfish, narcissistic jackass who we didn't need. Those 41 yards didn't make a damn difference. We would have won any way.

Russell was an essential part of the greatest period of Seahawks football in our history. He gave us all he had every game including the last year when he went on the field probably still hurt because he didn't want to let the team down. Not because as you like to claim he forced his way on the field to pad his stats which he has never done. Russell has laid it on the line for this team since he arrived. He worked with every new receiver in the offseason on his own time. He made Chris "No Name Not even the league any more" look like a damn super star in the second Super Bowl we almost won.

I for one am damn tired of you taking shots at the greatest Seahawks QB to ever put on the uniform who gave us everything he had for ten years before Carroll decided to trade him rather than fix the beef that was going on behind closed doors. Carroll and John had the power the retain Russell like most teams do with their franchise QBs. But they didn't. It wasn't because Russ forced his way out, but because Pete and John forced him out.

All I know is your revisionist history about what Russell brought to this team is just ridiculous. And building up Geno and Drew Lock as on par with Russ is also ridiculous. Even in a damn down year with Russ missing games he outperformed the entire careers of Drew Lock and Geno Smith. Yet you want to keep touting three games for Geno, two of which we lost. It's unbelievably ridiculous.

Just stop already with the trash analysis and realize we just lost the greatest Seahawks QB to ever wear the uniform and that isn't going to be easy to recover from no matter who tries to spin the upside.

[Hawktawk]

Not sure who you are talking about here Asea .

You clearly don’t understand the game at all if you think the fact that Seattle didn’t punt till late in the third quarter was not a huge part of the game . That the ability to keep Manning on the bench . That’s with that great center part of the second worst trade in team history playing like crap . Lynch had 38 yards on 14 carries with one was over 20.


Harvins jet sweeps occurred fairly early in the game . Every touch including the reception created a first down . So in 4 touches total Harvin had well over 100 yards of offense , 3 first downs and a house call off a perfect pooch kick .If Harvin had not been savvy and athletic enough to go get the ball 10 feet off the ground everything’s arriving at once , ball and Denver players .

If you can’t appreciate the magnificence of that return you’re the terrible analyst. Guy was a cancer , an Ahole , a bad trade. But he played his best game as a Seahawk in the biggest moment .


As for Russ I said MANY OF MY FRIENDS THOUGHT HE WAS A PUNK IN THE END. It was a careless comment I’ve apologized for a week ago so just stop . But many fans think he was the one most in the wrong . Found his act a bit nauseating .

As for where I’ve said Locke and Geno are as good or better than Russ in his prime show me that or be quiet .

What I’ve said is either may very well be more effective next year than Russ was this year . If it’s Geno and he plays like last year we definitely will .
Russ was our greatest qb ever . I’ve said it till I’m blue in the face . But he wound up a petulant self centered checked out disingenuous guy in the end . Doesn’t diminish his accomplishment . I think he should have at least shared the mvp in 48 for reasons listed above .

But it was a bad 2 year long goodbye a year late and I’m on the record on this very forum after the comments and leaks a year ago . 3 months earlier I was thinking he was the mvp.

He was our greatest QB but he wasn’t the best Hawk at all in the end . 12s not good enough to even give 100% ? See you Sept 12. If that view offends the fan boys oh well I do not care .

[Hawktawk]

Interesting . 12s on the 12th

[RiverDog]

SB XLVIII was such a lopsided win, one of the biggest arse kicking in the history of the game, that the absence of any one player, whether it be Russell, Kam, Bennett, Avril, Beast, or Harvin, wouldn't have made a noticeable difference in the outcome. Citing 3 or 4 plays, no matter how good, doesn't justify the trade. Besides, Harvin did absolutely nothing to help us get to the SB. Plus he was a first class self serving A-hole that was without a doubt a cancer that divided the locker room and nearly tore the team apart.

And the bad thing was that it was well known that the Vikings wanted to get rid of Harvin as he had demonstrated the exact same behavior during his time with them, once running down the sidelines during a game, ironically against the Hawks, to read his head coach, Leslie Frazier, the riot act about who he thought should be playing quarterback:

Percy Harvin's frustration over the Minnesota Vikings' moribund passing game boiled over during Sunday's 30-20 loss to the Seattle Seahawks.

After a promising second-quarter drive stalled in the red zone, Harvin sought out Leslie Frazier and shouted demonstratively at the coach. Harvin followed Frazier down the sideline, prompting the coach to remove his headset and calm down his star wide receiver.

Harvin got similarly heated last week, when he appeared to be shouting at offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave during a loss to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

https://www.nfl.com/news/percy-harvin-f ... 0000090328

If a brother like Frazier, by all accounts a decent, unobtrusive individual that players liked playing for, couldn't control Harvin, what was it about Pete Carroll that made him think that he'd have any better results? IMO it was pure arrogance that Carroll thought that the power of his personality was so persuasive that he could tame a shrew. Unlike Graham and Adams, this was one trade that I was completely against from the time the rumors started circulating.

Horrible trade, worst in team history.

[NorthHawk]

I forgot we gave up a 1st, a 7th, and a mid round pick the next year for Harvin.
It was probably the first trade where we paid far too much for a player that wasn't wanted by their current team.
One would think that it is obvious that a team wanting to unload a player wouldn't have much leverage, but as with the Adams trade, that didn't seem to be a
factor in the compensation for a player.

[tarlhawk]

The Percy Harvin situation came early in John Schneider's GM career and it would be interesting to know how it came about since so much deserved "blow back" has occurred.

I don't remember my own thoughts at the time since I remember being caught up in the building euphoria of a drive toward the Super Bowl and not knowing much about Harvin's character or locker room presence. I was becoming a big fan of "angry" Doug Baldwin and the excitement Russell Wilson was delivering.

[NorthHawk]

I think it’s easier to accept a gamble on a player when you have a very talented team.
When you’re a team struggling to stay relevant like we were when the Adams trade
came down, it can have a bigger impact. Losing two firsts, a third, and a starting player was a gut
punch from a team building PoV.

[RiverDog]

The Percy Harvin situation came early in John Schneider's GM career and it would be interesting to know how it came about since so much deserved "blow back" has occurred.

Let's be clear as to who is in charge. This was Pete Carroll's baby. Nothing happens without his consent. Pete obviously knew what the problems were with Harvin, after all, he was on the field when Harvin chased down Leslie Frazier during a game, but Pete chose to ignore or rationalize them. At the time, our offensive coordinator was Darrell Bevell, who was previously the Vikings OC and had a hand in drafting Harvin, so he obviously had a lot to do with the trade. Schneider was just following orders.

I don't remember my own thoughts at the time since I remember being caught up in the building euphoria of a drive toward the Super Bowl and not knowing much about Harvin's character or locker room presence. I was becoming a big fan of "angry" Doug Baldwin and the excitement Russell Wilson was delivering.

I was OK with the willingness to push all our chips to the center of the table. At the time, we were clearly just a player or two away, and I didn't mind taking a gamble like that for the right player.

But not with that guy. There was just too many red flags. Even in high school, Harvin received multiple suspensions for unsportsmanlike conduct which led to his being banned from all athletic contests in Virgina high schools. In college at Florida, where none other than Urban Meyer was the HC, Harvin physically attacked his position coach, choking him and having to be pulled off him by teammates, but was never disciplined. Then there was the well documented incidents with the Vikings. He was an obvious head case and had trouble at every stop.

That's what I meant when I said that Pete ignored the obvious flags that they all had to have known about. IMO Pete had to have felt that he could succeed with Harvin where all others had failed. To put it very mildly, Pete was overconfident in his power of personal persuasion.

Since you are admittedly a newcomer to our brotherhood of Seahawk fans, perhaps knowing about the details of that trade will help explain why I seem to you as having such little patience with Pete. It runs much deeper than just one losing season.

[Hawktawk]

I was sitting in on Sports talk in Moses lake with David Heaverlo the Friday before the game . There was a score predicting contest . I had it Seahawks 41-Denver 22. We had really struggled offensively the entire postseason . People forget Harvin had a couple of catches prior to being KOd drawing a 15 yard penalty leading to a score in a very tight saints game . We all remember the 9ers game .

My on air comments included Russ is due to go off , nobody’s talking about Harvin , they don’t match up well with our defense.
As I recall we were dogs in the game .
I won the contest . I was the only guy in the entire listening area who had Seattle in the 40s .

And it’s ludicrous to say we could have lost this guy or that and it would have made no difference . The offense was the reason we didn’t punt till late in the third quarter . And we could not run the ball which made the jet sweeps critical . And anyone who thinks a defense that got gashed twice wasn’t doing weird stuff when he was in motion the rest of the night doesn’t get pro football at all .

Our offense was Russels arm and timely wheels and Harvin and of course our scoring defense . Russels best play of the night was saving the DOA throwback from Lynch which arrived along with some denver defenders . Russ somehow avoided being tackled long enough to flip a left handed chest pass near enough Miller to avoid a grounding call barely . Next play was the beautiful rainbow to Baldwin that set up a score .

But if you want to argue housing a perfectly executed pooch kick didn’t matter have at it . I know it was a bad trade like every god damn team has but the man played the best he ever did in the biggest moment . Every play matters . Every player . I’ve watched Seattle lose a 17 point lead with 6 minutes to play . The return was the straw that broke the back of one of the most prolific passers in the game who may well have had the ball near our goal if Harvin wasn’t Harvin .

[RiverDog]

And it’s ludicrous to say we could have lost this guy or that and it would have made no difference . The offense was the reason we didn’t punt till late in the third quarter . And we could not run the ball which made the jet sweeps critical . And anyone who thinks a defense that got gashed twice wasn’t doing weird stuff when he was in motion the rest of the night doesn’t get pro football at all.

What's ludicrous is for you to argue that 3 plays in one blowout of a game makes the Harvin trade a good deal. He did nothing to help us get to SB 48. Zero. Zilch. Nada. He got into a fight with Golden Tate the night before the game. And he nearly destroyed the team the following year.

Sure, Harvin contributed to our victory, just like a lot of our guys did that day. But he wasn't indispensable. Far, far from it. We played the entire season save a couple of play in one game without him and we went 15-3. There's no way we would have lost that game, with or without Percy Harvin or any other single player. It was that one sided.

[c_hawkbob]

Harvin's net effect on XLVIII was substantial, perhaps greater than any single Seahawks save Kam. I said then and I am sticking to it that "even if for no other reason than this game right here" the trade was worth it. Turns out there never any other reason, but still, totally worth it for me.

[RiverDog]

Harvin's net effect on XLVIII was substantial, perhaps greater than any single Seahawks save Kam. I said then and I am sticking to it that "even if for no other reason than this game right here" the trade was worth it. Turns out there never any other reason, but still, totally worth it for me.

If I recall...and my memory is even shorter than my manhood so forgive me if I'm wrong..you're the one that first said that our win in SB48 was so overwhelming that we could have won even in the absence of any single player. Is that not true?

[tarlhawk]

Maintaining momentum in a blowout is assured when you keep "your foot on the opponents neck" from start to finish...the number one offense in the NFL still felt they had a chance coming out at half time...Harvin's TD put a "dagger" in those hopes. No single play in a blow out can claim it won the game...but every positive play that kept the other team down can be attributed to the overall team momentum that "sealed the deal"

None of this banter claims the "goodness" of Harvin's character...reading numerous articles and draft reports reveals many people were unaware of serious character flaws. Your accounting of "prior knowledge" makes the scouting dept of Minnesota and any vetting process they have as "severely" lacking...they took him as their first rd draft selection (number 22 pick). Florida must also be blamed teaming up such a troubled young man with Tim Tebow...and the NFL All-Pro selection process that named him an All-Pro as the NFL's best in total yardage...its not like he stayed on our team once his "true colors" came out...he had signed a lucrative contract for its time yet we were able to ship him to the NY Jets in spite of the contract years remaining.

[c_hawkbob]

Harvin's net effect on XLVIII was substantial, perhaps greater than any single Seahawks save Kam. I said then and I am sticking to it that "even if for no other reason than this game right here" the trade was worth it. Turns out there never any other reason, but still, totally worth it for me.

If I recall...and my memory is even shorter than my manhood so forgive me if I'm wrong..you're the one that first said that our win in SB48 was so overwhelming that we could have won even in the absence of any single player. Is that not true?

Yes, I did. But that doesn't negate anything else I said. That was said in retrospect when it looked like our JV squad could have tromp 'em, but in real time it was that return of Harvin's to open up the second half that sealed the game for me. That was the moment I could really relax, even laugh at how much we were gonna wind up killing them by.

[Hawktawk]

Harvin's net effect on XLVIII was substantial, perhaps greater than any single Seahawks save Kam. I said then and I am sticking to it that "even if for no other reason than this game right here" the trade was worth it. Turns out there never any other reason, but still, totally worth it for me.

Thank you Bob . My sentiment exactly. Terrible person . Terrible trade . But worth it due to that ring . And hindsight is 2020 but Lynch came with some character concerns having clipped a woman with his mirror of his SUV and driven away , belligerent etc . Frank Clark had huge character concerns and I’ve seen analysis that we should have signed Clark and traded Bobby in his prime instead . Not that I agree but there’s lots of studs in the league that aren’t choir boys

[RiverDog]

Just keep in mind that Harvin was in the Super Bowl due purely to circumstances beyond his control. He did absolutely nothing to earn a spot on that SB roster that the vast majority of NFL players would die to be on. He won the lottery.

As far as feeling relieved after Harvin's KO return, I agree, that was the moment that we could relax, use the bathroom, start munching on the snack tray. But realistically, that game was over when Malcom Smith returned a pressured Peyton Manning pass for a pick 6, unless you want to subscribe to a 1 in 15 or 1 in 20 chance of a 2nd half comeback, especially when you consider what kind of defense the Broncos were going up against.

The Harvin trade was a bust. Period.

[Hawktawk]

He had a huge role in the game . He was on the field for 2 other games , saints and Vikings where he contributed an explosive play to set up a score . 1 or 2 catches in an uncomfortably tight divisional vs the saints and also drew a 15 yard penalty leading to a score . But yeah he was lucky like every man on that team including Russ . Take any one guy off that roster and I mean any and put them on the jets and what are they winning ? Harvin was a complete bust that was worth it for one reason . What if he’s not on the team and there’s nowhere to run inside and nobody to run jet sweeps and we punt 2 or 3 times in that first half ?
Glad as hell we had him that game

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think Harvin's Super Bowl performance was necessary to win. I don't think it justifies the Harvin trade.

But I ain't gonna lie. It was glorious to watch. Harvin did perform extremely well in the biggest game in our history. Really, everyone did. The entire team was "in the zone" at the same time like all the planets aligned in Seattle's favor. And it didn't matter what Denver did or Peyton Manning, it was not gonna end well for them.

That Legion of Boom defense was legendary. The offense didn't want to be completely overshadowed, so they stepped up too.

Hell, that one Super Bowl was a legendary performance by the Seahawks. I still wish we had zeroed them out and made it the single greatest defensive performance in Super Bowl history, which it still might be even with the 8 garbage points scored given who our opponent was and how well they performed during the regular season.

The Legion of Boom took Peyton's record setting 55 TD year and made him look like a pathetic rookie in his first Super Bowl. Peyton won every great award that year. And the Legion of Boom almost zeroed him in the biggest game of the year.

The whole team was incredible. Just incredible. The Legion of Boom absolutely unbeatable that day.

I wouldn't take a single guy off the Legion of Boom or the defense. They were all necessary. Our defense set the tone that day and everyone else just piled on.

[mykc14]

PC was a 7-9 coach before he had a Franchise QB and will be until he finds another one...

[RiverDog]

PC was a 7-9 coach before he had a Franchise QB and will be until he finds another one...

Russell Wilson was far from being a franchise QB in 2012 and 2013.

[c_hawkbob]

PC was a 7-9 coach before he had a Franchise QB and will be until he finds another one...

Russell Wilson was far from being a franchise QB in 2012 and 2013.

No he wasn't.

[Aseahawkfan]

Russell Wilson was far from being a franchise QB in 2012 and 2013.

My eye test told me this kid was heading to the Hall of Fame in his first year. Last guy to perform that well in his rookie year was Peyton Manning. Funny that someone like you can say "He was far from a franchise QB in his first year" when he literally had a rookie year that only a handful of QBs had ever had in NFL history and most of those QBs are in the Hall of Fame right now or heading there if they played any length of time.

Best rookie year of the past 15 years.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-best-rookie-quarterback-seasons-of-the-past-15-years-can-mac-jones-russell-wilson

Sorry man, Russell Wilson was a franchise QB in year 1. You were so accustomed to judging QBs by veteran standards you didn't notice that Russ had one of the best QB rookie seasons in NFL history.

https://clutchpoints.com/5-best-rookie-quarterback-seasons-in-nfl-history/

Russell Wilson is heading for the Hall of Fame and I told you that his first year. You could see it in the preseason that the only thing derailing that kid from greatness would be some unforeseen injury because he had everything from the physical to the mental skills to the work ethic to the personality. Everything. It will be a long time I fear before any QB as good as Russell Wilson wears a Seattle uniform again. It's damn sad he's going in the Hall wearing another uniform. Damn sad IMO.

[RiverDog]

Eye tests aside, in 2012, Russell's rookie season, he was ranked 23rd in passing yardage, 25th in passing attempts. In 2012, he was ranked 16th in passing yardage, 22nd in passing attempts. He was not my definition of a "franchise quarterback," ie a player that the entire team revolves around, hence the term "franchise", ala Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, at that point of his career. Later on, he developed into a franchise QB, but back then, he was thought of as a very promising young running quarterback playing point guard in Pete Carroll's run first, defense orientated team, not too dissimilar to RG3 and Colin Kaepernick, players frequently compared to Russell but that never developed into a franchise QB. Only if you define 1/2 - 2/3's of the starting QB's in the league a "franchise quarterback" would a young Russell Wilson fit that description.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh come on Riv, ain't you the one constantly deriding stats? Something about "damn liars" isn't it? And now you'r basing you entire evaluation on stats?

Every rookie has a learning curve, but there were plenty of indications Russ was special right from the start. The one that stands out to me most was him telling Pete "we'll win it all next year" after that Atlanta playoff loss that he had just put the team in position for a come from behind win twice. Russ was special right outa the box and it was obvious.

[NorthHawk]

I think it was the Bears game where for me it looked like he could really be special.
It was a comeback win, the first of many to come and showed a lot of maturity at an early point of his career.

[RiverDog]

Oh come on Riv, ain't you the one constantly deriding stats? Something about "damn liars" isn't it? And now you'r basing you entire evaluation on stats?

Every rookie has a learning curve, but there were plenty of indications Russ was special right from the start. The one that stands out to me most was him telling Pete "we'll win it all next year" after that Atlanta playoff loss that he had just put the team in position for a come from behind win twice. Russ was special right outa the box and it was obvious.

The reason why I chose those stats was to show that Russell was not the center of the offense, let alone a player that the entire team revolved around. I was not basing my 'entire evaluation' on those stats.

And I agree, there were plenty of indications that Russell was special from the start, as have a lot of QB's over the years. But he had yet to earn it. IMO no rookie QB is a "franchise QB", simply because there are players, like RG3 and Kaepernick, who were also "special from the start" that, for one reason or another, don't sustain their performance. Patrick Mahomes is, Josh Wilson just earned his stripes, Joe Burrow hasn't yet (one good season isn't enough) and needs to do it another year.

We all have our own definitions for certain terms. The bar I set for a quarterback to be considered a "franchise QB" appears to be a little higher than yours.

[c_hawkbob]

By that measure there has never been a franchise QB before what, his 5th year? I think you're reaching here.

[RiverDog]

By that measure there has never been a franchise QB before what, his 5th year? I think you're reaching here.

No, not necessarily. If Burrows has another great year like he had last season, he might earn that tag in his 3rd year. Mahomes earned that tag quite early. So did Andrew Luck.

It's a subjective term and I'm talking about my definition of it. I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with it.

[tarlhawk]

With OTAs around the corner some of our "roster building" dust has settled...many "unknown" possibilities have the potential to get us to a max ceiling of 9 wins but just as equal opportunity to fall to 4 wins. This is one of the few years I don't have anxious hopes concerning our success or failure. Expectations are low for many reasons...can our QB play win close games?...can our infusion of youth yield quick results?...AFC/NFC West giving us a sincere underdog mentality in at least 10 of our games. Having such lowered expectations can accent any over achievements or temper expected disappointments. The old Mariner mantra used to be "Anything can happen now"...and that may be our token banner for 2022.

The unknowns?

We have a new "Defensive Trust" (Coaches Hurtt/Desai/Scott/Shead) with the element of surprise to avoid such defensive "slow starts" we've endured and alter our "post snap" look from what our opposing QB sees "pre snap". Last year our pre snap was mirrored by our post snap a whopping 94% of the time...no disguise to make their QB hesitate...cover 3 principles with Tampa 2 schemes and a secondary not comfortable in most man/sticky coverage assignments. Secondary hesitation "kills"...just like hesitation from our QB play favors being sacked. Our LB play kept our two best young players (Jordyn Brooks/Darryl Taylor) and has added Cody Barton/Boye Mafe with options Alton Robinson/Tyreke Smith/Ben Burr-Kirven. Interior push? Shelby Harris/Quinton Jefferson/Poona Ford and LJ Collier's "last chance" Returning from injury...our two All-Pro safeties Diggs/Adams.

Offensively Shane Waldron aided by his O-Line coach (Andy Dickerson) and RB coach (Chad Morton) / WR coach (Sanjay Lal) offer a new ZB heavy use of athletic "wider spread formation" O-Linemen with solid ability to rush not only inside the tackles but wide outside as well with two explosive runningbacks (Rashaad Penny/Kenneth Walker III) and pesky quick "fly sweep" dynamos (Dee Eskridge/Bo Melton)

QB play is our definite "X-Factor" as we lost our cardiac come back specialist (RW) and now have two QBs (Drew Lock/Geno Smith) who have flashed NFL caliber potential but very limited upside suffering a mixed bag of results "clouding" their outlooks. Shane Waldron served two years as the Rams Passing Coach (coinciding with the two best seasons of Jared Goff's career) so can more magic be worked? QB confidence stems from many aspects yet once fully developed you can get surprising results. Each year offers promise till we find "that One" who is able to "string" close wins together. Until we find such a QB we'll have cap money to continue adding to our talent base. 4 wins (maybe) 7-9 wins (possible)...regardless...offseason/preseason no longer dull. Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

I'm not thinking there is going to be a lot of change with how this team plays.
We will in all probability be using the 3-4 more often, but we don't know how much and if it will be the base pkg.
Pete has said that we will be using it more. But what does that mean, really? The 4-3 Under that we have been
playing is in theory a 4-3 with 3-4 looks and sometimes personnel. So will it be that different or will it just be a
little more of the 3-4 but with a 4-3 base?
I think it will probably be very similar to what we've seen the last decade but with a few twists or subtleties that aren't hugely obvious.

Offensively it will probably be the same thing. Our interior OL outside of Center aren't built to play the quick ZBS schemes like the Rams
that many are expecting. The Rams have very quick but smaller IOL and hulking OT's. We still have the power run game personnel at
Guard with Haynes, Jackson, and Lewis. Lewis might be able to be productive in the ZBS, but I don't think Haynes or Jackson are that
type physically. Cross is only 307 lbs and if he adds 10 more lbs he's still only 317. The Rams OT's were around the 340 range, so that
will be different and Lucas is only 315 at the moment. So it has to be a different look than the Rams. I suspect the OL will be some
type of hybrid scheme as the transition takes place, but that's a lot to learn for rookie OL especially on the edges. The types of plays
our Offense will be limited to will in all probability be less varied than when Wilson was at QB simply because the QBs on the roster
aren't as good. In the end it will still be Peteball at its core.

[tarlhawk]

Your reasoning is sound but Clint Hurtt feels we now have better scheme match athletes in the secondary/linebacker positions to "mix it up" becoming less predictable...stressing aggression without reckless tendencies in matching coverage schemes.

Our guards were employing ZBS schemes in "springing" Penny for many of his quick second level explosions toward the latter part of the year...so even if we have poor QB play we still should be able to keep games close and not be blown out.

[Hawktawk]

Oh come on Riv, ain't you the one constantly deriding stats? Something about "damn liars" isn't it? And now you'r basing you entire evaluation on stats?

Every rookie has a learning curve, but there were plenty of indications Russ was special right from the start. The one that stands out to me most was him telling Pete "we'll win it all next year" after that Atlanta playoff loss that he had just put the team in position for a come from behind win twice. Russ was special right outa the box and it was obvious.

LOL I get accused of haterade and cherry picking stats

Russ was one of the greatest rookie qbs of all time. When you have minimal attempts and completions and still tie the rookie passing record with Manning its called EFFICIENT. and remember in the season ender vs the Rams he had a 2 yard toss to break the record to Zach Miller but ran it in. He said it was the safer play, Russ wasn't worried about personal accolades or records early in his career. Russ was deadly efficient with his wheels, judicious, careful with his body. People forget he was a 3rd round afterthought who far outlasted #1 and 2 overall in RGIII and Luck who succumbed to injuruies. I remember the dead eyes, shark eyes , assassins' eyes always downfield. Making lead blocks 30 yards downfield, diving on fumbles. Russell was a dynamic difference maker. Was he good enough to win it all anywhere he went? By himself? No. But he was an essential part of this run of success, a hall of fame QB.

Dangerruss was so out of the box.

[NorthHawk]

Your reasoning is sound but Clint Hurtt feels we now have better scheme match athletes in the secondary/linebacker positions to "mix it up" becoming less predictable...stressing aggression without reckless tendencies in matching coverage schemes.

Our guards were employing ZBS schemes in "springing" Penny for many of his quick second level explosions toward the latter part of the year...so even if we have poor QB play we still should be able to keep games close and not be blown out.

Possibly true but we’ve gone through how many DC’s - is it 3 and still have the same Defense.
Same story on Offense.
In an interview earlier Pete told a story about talking with John Wooden at USC and Pete asked
him about changing your philosophy and Wooden asked why would you change your philosophy?
It’s part of who you are and responsible for your success. So if Pete believes that then changes
might not be as much as people might expect or hope regardless of who the DC and OC are.

[Hawktawk]

By that measure there has never been a franchise QB before what, his 5th year? I think you're reaching here.

No, not necessarily. If Burrows has another great year like he had last season, he might earn that tag in his 3rd year. Mahomes earned that tag quite early. So did Andrew Luck.

It's a subjective term and I'm talking about my definition of it. I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with it.

You may be the only person in the world who would say Burrow isnt a franchise QB. Or that Wilson wasn't by his second Lombardi winning season if not his first season tying the all time rookie TD record.

If Burrow were on the trade block he would dwarf what we got for Wilson. Its a word. Everyone in the league but me is still calling Russ a franchise QB and I dont think that's true anymore either. We will know soon.

[Aseahawkfan]

Eye tests aside, in 2012, Russell's rookie season, he was ranked 23rd in passing yardage, 25th in passing attempts. In 2012, he was ranked 16th in passing yardage, 22nd in passing attempts. He was not my definition of a "franchise quarterback," ie a player that the entire team revolves around, hence the term "franchise", ala Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, at that point of his career. Later on, he developed into a franchise QB, but back then, he was thought of as a very promising young running quarterback playing point guard in Pete Carroll's run first, defense orientated team, not too dissimilar to RG3 and Colin Kaepernick, players frequently compared to Russell but that never developed into a franchise QB. Only if you define 1/2 - 2/3's of the starting QB's in the league a "franchise quarterback" would a young Russell Wilson fit that description.

You said far from a franchise QB his first two years. I don't think it was far. You can wait until he proves it or whatever. He tied a playoff record in year 1 and took us to the Super Bowl in year 2. We were two years of 7-9 before he arrived. He immediately changed us to a Super Bowl contender, which is what you want from your QB. His efficiency rating that first year was incredible for a rookie QB. He was 4th in QB rating and 3rd in QBR and 9th in TDs. And he rushed for 489 yards, 35th best in the league only behind Cam Newton and RG3 for QBs. His overall effect on the offense was amazing.

I still think you're statement of "far off" is far off. Russ took a 7-9 team and turned it into a legitimate Super Bowl contender in year 1 and won a Super Bowl in year 2 and went to a second in year 3. So not sure what else you want from a franchise QB, but that sure sounds like one to me. He continued to sustain us as a playoff team for all but two years in a decade of play even as our defense and run game fell off and has the best win-loss record of any Seahawks QB in history and it's not even close with a rotating cast of players.

I can't buy into your argument on this one. Russ was a franchise QB from year 1. He took a 7-9 franchise and immediately turned us into a Super Bowl contender and playoff competitor. Best period of Seahawks football ever. Best Seattle QB ever.

Damn shame it has ended as it has. A damn shame. Pete and John better show something next year or hope Russ crashes and burns or they will look like total idiots.

[Aseahawkfan]

ZBS schemes in "springing" Penny for many of his quick second level explosions toward the latter part of the year...so even if we have poor QB play we still should be able to keep games close and not be blown out.

Possibly true but we’ve gone through how many DC’s - is it 3 and still have the same Defense.
Same story on Offense.
In an interview earlier Pete told a story about talking with John Wooden at USC and Pete asked
him about changing your philosophy and Wooden asked why would you change your philosophy?
It’s part of who you are and responsible for your success. So if Pete believes that then changes
might not be as much as people might expect or hope regardless of who the DC and OC are.

My buddy is psyched on Hurrt too. It will be interesting to see if he can bring anything new.

But we all know it's all going to come down to talent just like it always does. Bill B looks like a genius because he had Brady. Now he's good, but his timetable for the Patriots returning a Super Bowl is ticking without Tom Terrific.

It's the same here. Pete's tossed multiple DCs and OCs under the bus because we're performing as well as expected. He has tossed multiple DCs including Ken Norton Jr and Kris Richard under the bus. But really those units are not doing as well because of the talent drop off. That's all on Pete and John.

Now they have made the decision to toss Russ away thinking we can somehow rebuild and do better. We'll see if it works. It's either going to be their rebirth or finally get rid of them as the clock is ticking on them too. They just accelerated that clock by hitting the rebuild button getting rid of their QB. Failure will cost them their jobs. It's that simple.