Getting Ready for 2022-(Play Makers)

[tarlhawk]

Current review of existing Offensive groups (Play makers) and draft prospects:

Coaching

Offensive Coordinator- (Shane Waldron) Experience: 8 years
Senior Offensive Assistant (Nate Carroll) Experience: 10 years
Offensive Passing Game Coordinator / Wide Receivers (Sanjay Lal) Experience: 14 years
Run Game Coordinator / Running Backs (Chad Morton) Experience: 12 years
Tight Ends (Pat McPherson) Experience: 23 years


Our play makers (RB/TE/WR): Our current grouping of play makers is an offensive strength just begging to be utilized by our Offensive Coordinator Shane Waldron. We have players across the offensive "board" with young players having strong upside. The "Big 5" are Rashaad Penny/Kenneth Walker III/Noah Fant/DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett who provide balance and explosion. We are basically trying to have our O-Line catch up to fully utilize our offensive talent.

Two Tight End Formations (Balanced and Tight Wing)
Noah Fant and Will Dissly give great flexibility with Fant a strong seam route TE complemented by Dissly's strong in-line blocking whether in Balanced formation (each TE just outside of the OT) or in Tight Wing formation (both TE lined up on same side). A fast TE on a route is a mismatch in most LB coverage and too big for most defensive backs.

Wide Receivers (including 3 and 4 WR sets)
Our WR group offers a "choose your poison" dilemma. Tyler Lockett has the poise and experience to exploit his quickness and speed in various routes. DK Metcalf has a great blend of size and speed ...creating many mismatch opportunities. On 3 receiver sets Freddie Swain can often be "lost in the weeds"...offering the "appearance of blown coverage". The 4 receiver set adds in a very quick "dangerous in space" Dee Eskridge.

Running Backs
Rashaad Penny and Kenneth Walker III have "TNT" potential with cutback ability and field vision to "get skinny" and quickly accelerate into space. Both running backs had "plus four" yards after contact in their final collegiate seasons (Penny 2017 and Walker 2021) Both of them rack up many broken tackles while bursting into space...a clear threat to "take it to the house". The reason Pete "lights up" when talking about either back is their ability to "explode" without coughing up the football...stringing games (not just plays) together without a single turnover. Penny has been improving his pass pro giving our best RB at pass pro (Travis Homer) fewer opportunities. Backups to these three RB are DeeJay Dallas and either Chris Carson (serious injury concerns) or resigning of Alex Collins...or even Josh Johnson.

We have a few "unknowns" with potential impact. Our existing RB depth (Travis Homer/DeeJay Dallas haven't really "flashed" during limited opportunity but are both still very young (23 yrs). TE depth is Colby Parkinson who offers "Red Zone" impact. WR depth behind the 4 already mentioned is a mixed bag of limited opportunities with Penny Hart and Cody Thompson looking over their shoulders at 7th round draftees Bo Melton/Dareke Young.


Projected Starters
Three scouting superlatives with one detraction:

Rashaad Penny (RB 5'11" 220 Age26 yrs)

Surprising speed for a big back...able to break off long runs
Quickness to the hole and second level
Impressive vision

One Detraction
Plays slower when he's unsure mentally


Noah Fant (TE 6'4" 249 Age24 yrs)

Ridiculous athlete who ran a 4.5 in the 40, jumped 39.5 inches in the vertical, 10 feet, 6 inches in the broad and then ran a 6.81-second three-cone drill.

Great catch radius with the athleticism and flexibility to make grabs away from his 6'4", 249-pound frame; will go up high to challenge on 50-50 balls with a great vertical jump but also goes low to get balls off the turf.

Gets to top speed in a hurry; will leave linebackers yards behind him in coverage and must be accounted for by a safety over the top. Will cause defenses to panic.

One detraction:
——Could add urgency to his routes; will get a little soft and let the ball come to him instead of attacking it.


DK Metcalf (WR 6'4" 235 Age24yrs)

Quick-twitch athlete with loose hips to carry him quickly in and out of his breaks
Can wipe out coverage cushions with top-end speed that takes the top off
Very risky to press without a back-end safety net

One detraction:
Suffered focus drops when working back to the ball


Tyler Lockett (WR 5'10" 182 Age29 yrs)

Has twitch at top of his routes and gets separation for quarterbacks to make open throws
Nuanced route runner with ability to sell
Has a knack for making explosive plays as a receiver and return man

One detraction:
Struggles with physical cornerbacks and can be redirected in his routes

[Hawktawk]

Once again an excellent analysis . How can you not win with these skill players ?

[Hawktawk]

Fant is the overlooked part of this trade . 74 catches from Drew already another interesting side note . He’s a load

[tarlhawk]

Perhaps Noah Fant will be the "security" for Drew Lock...that Tyler Lockett was for Russell Wilson?

[Hawktawk]

Perhaps Noah Fant will be the "security" for Drew Lock...that Tyler Lockett was for Russell Wilson?

It can’t hurt . Shock the world baby

[Aseahawkfan]

Probably our best position group. If either of these backups are even halfway decent, they should be able to do something with the quality playmakers we have. I heard this Noah Fant guy is probably the big steal of the Broncos players we picked up in the trade. A TE with a full skill set. I like that addition.

[NorthHawk]

I heard some comments from Denver fans suggesting Fant dropped more passes than he should have.
Maybe it was some sour grapes, but with our QB situation it can’t become anywhere near common.

The other detraction for Penny is injuries. That can’t be ignored.

[Hawktawk]

All the analysis assume the player is healthy . Who knows about Penney or anyone else next year .

[NorthHawk]

All the analysis assume the player is healthy . Who knows about Penney or anyone else next year .

Well in that case, Prosise would have been given an All Pro designation.
Availability absolutely has to be considered or evaluations are pretty much worthless.

[tarlhawk]

I heard some comments from Denver fans suggesting Fant dropped more passes than he should have.
Maybe it was some sour grapes, but with our QB situation it can’t become anywhere near common.

Its easy enough to lookup. Noah Fant was targeted 90 times catching 68 (He caught 76% of passes thrown his way) ...while dropping 2 passes (2.2% of his 90 targets) No interceptions resulted from him being targeted and his QB enjoyed a QB rating of 110.9 when throwing to him...so those "fans" sound like our fans when expressing sour grapes without making any effort to "fact check". His 2019 rookie year was his worse (5 drops in only 66 targets (7.6%) Better yet comparable to Gerald Everette who had 3 drops in only 63 targets. Noah Fant is legit and a freaky athlete.

[Aseahawkfan]

All the analysis assume the player is healthy . Who knows about Penney or anyone else next year .

We know by their past performance and durability. That's how we know. It's part of evaluating players if they can play at the NFL level is NFL level durability.

[Hawktawk]

All the analysis assume the player is healthy . Who knows about Penney or anyone else next year .

Well in that case, Prosise would have been given an All Pro designation.
Availability absolutely has to be considered or evaluations are pretty much worthless.

Procise ? That’s absurd . He’s never been half the talent to begin with and never put together a stretch of games like Penney who has 7 games of 100+ yards in 6 starts and picking up the scraps from Carson .3 of them Are over 130 , one was 175 and one was 190.

3 weeks before his first and only significant career injury he rushed for 138 on 14 carries, a 9.2 average . That was with Carson getting more of the carries. Penney had 3 such games as a backup change of pace . It’s truly insulting to Penney to compare him to procise .

Seems like there isn’t the same animosity towards Carson . He’s the regular season wonder who has never played all the games one time and made one playoff game where he rushed for 20 yards on 14 carries while Penney went for 29 on 4, a 7 ypc average . Had Penney been groomed as a starter in 2018 who knows ? Maybe the 16 yard swing pass he got his knee targeted on isn’t his play . What ifs

Penney played 6 games as a starter , got hit in the knees , Budda baker gator rolled him causing obvious pain and I thought experiment over . All he did after that was hang up another 120 yards outrunning Baker then running over him causing a chain reaction collision that left baker concussed .

I hope he’s healthy and that the fans are pulling for that because we would truly have a special backfield with he and walker. As it is that pick lessened my fear of a pedestrian run game if Penney does go down . My optimism is stronger than ever .

[tarlhawk]

“Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be.”
― Abraham Lincoln

“Those who look for the bad in people will surely find it.”
― Abraham Lincoln

“And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.”
― Abraham Lincoln

What is the benefit of unbalanced criticism...finding "dirt" on someone somehow elevates ones happiness? When the focus is a troubled past (injury/misfortune/poor opportunity) as if you are tethered to your past only discourages hope...what purpose?

[NorthHawk]

Procise ? That’s absurd . He’s never been half the talent to begin with and never put together a stretch of games like Penney who has 7 games of 100+ yards in 6 starts and picking up the scraps from Carson .3 of them Are over 130 , one was 175 and one was 190.

Procise showed like Penny. When he was healthy he had great flashes. That's why he lasted so long on the team, but like Penny he was always injured.
Penny is exactly the same way. And he can't be trusted to complete any season and at 26 he's getting old for a RB who has never really done much in the NFL.
It's why he's on a one year prove-it contract and not signed longer term.

[Aseahawkfan]

“Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be.”
― Abraham Lincoln

“Those who look for the bad in people will surely find it.”
― Abraham Lincoln

“And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.”
― Abraham Lincoln

What is the benefit of unbalanced criticism...finding "dirt" on someone somehow elevates ones happiness? When the focus is a troubled past (injury/misfortune/poor opportunity) as if you are tethered to your past only discourages hope...what purpose?

To fully evaluate a player. You haven't been posting here long, but I am very big on injury history. Always have been, always will be. You can be Michael Jordan when you're on the court or field, but if you can't stay on there like Michael Jordan did then it doesn't matter.

I liked Okung when he first got here. He looked great on tape. He had the measurables. But for some reason when he got here he could not stay on the field consistently. Same with Marcus Tubbs, who was great when he was on the field. But they lacked NFL durability, which hampered their careers. Okung has found a way to carve out a career even with his injury issues, just not with us. Tubbs could never fully recover from his knee injury, so he never realized his talent.

Injury history is an incredibly important part of player analysis. NFL durability is a very real attribute. Some have it, some don't. If you have it, then you at least have a chance of maximizing your career. If you don't, then you likely won't have much of a career. You'll be a player who flashed something great, but couldn't stay on the field.

It has nothing to do with being unhappy. I don't know why you continue to frame analysis in an emotional manner as some kind of deflection because you don't want to analyze injury history. I guarantee you the scouts, GM, and the coaches analyze injury history when evaluating players. It's a huge part of roster management.

[tarlhawk]

It has nothing to do with being unhappy. I don't know why you continue to frame analysis in an emotional manner as some kind of deflection because you don't want to analyze injury history. I guarantee you the scouts, GM, and the coaches analyze injury history when evaluating players. It's a huge part of roster management.

I don't question your analysis you express sound reasoning when making a point...my issue is when certain variables the team has no control over...like built in risk just from the intensity and athleticism that exists in bunches in the NFL...the "blame game" is to associate that as management failures.

The military has similar accountability in its leadership. A Captain sleeping while one of his officers "makes a mistake" is held accountable just as he would be if awake and standing over the officers shoulder. I use scouting reports that reveal the potential as reflections on analysis of why a player was drafted where he was chosen.

Russell Wilson did an excellent effort of maintaining conditioning and perhaps all NFL players should have similar diligence. I frame it as emotional because that's how I view all forms of entertainment that invest my time in wanting to know more than a casual interest.

Analyzing injury is like analyzing a car wreck...I don't pass judgement on why something tragic happens. Injuries in the NFL are more a function of the physics at play than the fault of a player not making himself available. Coaches bear the responsibility of the validity of an individual making the weekly injury reports.

[RiverDog]

Procise ? That’s absurd . He’s never been half the talent to begin with and never put together a stretch of games like Penney who has 7 games of 100+ yards in 6 starts and picking up the scraps from Carson .3 of them Are over 130 , one was 175 and one was 190.

Procise showed like Penny. When he was healthy he had great flashes. That's why he lasted so long on the team, but like Penny he was always injured. Penny is exactly the same way. And he can't be trusted to complete any season and at 26 he's getting old for a RB who has never really done much in the NFL.

It's why he's on a one year prove-it contract and not signed longer term.

Procise might not have had quite the ceiling that Penny has, but outside of that, he's a good analogy.

And I'll add to North Hawk's observation about Penny being signed to a one year prove it deal that his unavailability due to injuries is one of the reasons why we didn't pick up his 5th year option.

[tarlhawk]

I have two differing opinions with Procise and Pennys 1 year extension. Procise indeed had "flashes" but Rashaad Penny was a break out back who did things consistently with explosive play after explosive play...not mere flashes.

Point number two is the 1 yr extension is similar to the pay he would have gotten if we had picked up his 5th year option (which was indeed not picked up because a 5th yr is FULLY Guaranteed and he needed to prove he could be counted on as THE back in 2021 without injury)

Penny and Sidney were both given 1 year contracts despite both showing the skills that got them drafted in the first place...not "prove it deals" but deals to help our minimal 2022 cap space (2022 still impacted by 26 million "dead money" *which counts against 2022 cap* from RW's contract since the Broncos weren't asked to pay for any of it) 2023 cap will allow some multi year contracts should both perform as expected.

[NorthHawk]

I have two differing opinions with Procise and Pennys 1 year extension. Procise indeed had "flashes" but Rashaad Penny was a break out back who did things consistently with explosive play after explosive play...not mere flashes.

Point number two is the 1 yr extension is similar to the pay he would have gotten if we had picked up his 5th year option (which was indeed not picked up because a 5th yr is FULLY Guaranteed and he needed to prove he could be counted on as THE back in 2021 without injury)

Penny and Sidney were both given 1 year contracts despite both showing the skills that got them drafted in the first place...not "prove it deals" but deals to help our minimal 2022 cap space (2022 still impacted by 26 million "dead money" *which counts against 2022 cap* from RW's contract since the Broncos weren't asked to pay for any of it) 2023 cap will allow some multi year contracts should both perform as expected.

Long term deals are used to lower the Cap hit, so your argument rings hollow.
If they really think Penny is the answer, they would have signed him to a 3 year deal perhaps with a 4th voidable year and include more Expected to be earned and Not Expected to be earned incentives.
As well, Penny didn't want to leave, so he might have been willing to sign a lesser contract (per year) for a reasonable guaranteed dollar amount.
However, our FO rightly seems to think he's a high risk of missing a good part of the season to injury and offered him a short contract commensurate with that expectation.

[tarlhawk]

I respect your right to present your opinion as fact...it implies you have a strong belief. I think both our stances are speculation since neither of us are close friends with John Schneider or Rashaad Penny. I am merely glad to have a deal completed without dragging any more drama into the composition of the team. My own hope and opinion is that Penny will demonstrate that his recent performance is not a mirage...but the realization of an NFL players dream. Go Hawks

[Aseahawkfan]

It would be real nice if Penny has a second coming. Gonna make him real expensive on a one year contract and he does prove he can go. But at the moment I'm glad the team is being cautious with the contract even though it might cost them next year trying to re-sign him. The reality it is more likely that Penny's six games was an anomaly, but hell, I'd take Penny just being a very solid 1000 yard rusher platoon back. That would keep the run game on time and regular. I don't need Penny to maintain last year's pace. I want to see the kid stay healthy, be consistently productive, and have a good career for 4 or 5 years. Make his money and help the Seahawks win. Win-win situation. He's gotta make sure he's ready and conditioned for the NFL. I hope he realizes how hard it is to have an NFL career and how hard he is going to have to work to just to be a good back, much less an amazing back.

I'll always remember all the work Walter Payton put in to be Walter Payton. That dude went above and beyond training. That's what it takes to be the best in the NFL.

[RiverDog]

It would be real nice if Penny has a second coming. Gonna make him real expensive on a one year contract and he does prove he can go. But at the moment I'm glad the team is being cautious with the contract even though it might cost them next year trying to re-sign him. The reality it is more likely that Penny's six games was an anomaly, but hell, I'd take Penny just being a very solid 1000 yard rusher platoon back. That would keep the run game on time and regular. I don't need Penny to maintain last year's pace. I want to see the kid stay healthy, be consistently productive, and have a good career for 4 or 5 years. Make his money and help the Seahawks win. Win-win situation. He's gotta make sure he's ready and conditioned for the NFL. I hope he realizes how hard it is to have an NFL career and how hard he is going to have to work to just to be a good back, much less an amazing back.

Depending on how Walker produces, it's likely going to be a tag team operation between Penny and Walker, similar to how the Browns rotate between Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt. Given Penny's injury history and suspect blocking, limiting his work load to 12-15 touches a game would make a ton of sense. It also gives us the option of playing the hot hand, play which ever RB is having the best success at the time.

But who's carrying the rock is just one part of the equation. There's lots of question marks on the OL, including the prospect of starting two rookies at tackle. And if the defense struggles, it could force us to abandon the running game early.

It's going to be an interesting season, at least to start out with.

[NorthHawk]

I think teams will play us to stop the run and try to make our QB win it.
Forcing us to pass with suspect OT's might be an unwinnable situation at least early in the year as the OL learns how to play together and for Tackles, how
to play at the NFL level.

[Hawktawk]

I have two differing opinions with Procise and Pennys 1 year extension. Procise indeed had "flashes" but Rashaad Penny was a break out back who did things consistently with explosive play after explosive play...not mere flashes.

Point number two is the 1 yr extension is similar to the pay he would have gotten if we had picked up his 5th year option (which was indeed not picked up because a 5th yr is FULLY Guaranteed and he needed to prove he could be counted on as THE back in 2021 without injury)

Penny and Sidney were both given 1 year contracts despite both showing the skills that got them drafted in the first place...not "prove it deals" but deals to help our minimal 2022 cap space (2022 still impacted by 26 million "dead money" *which counts against 2022 cap* from RW's contract since the Broncos weren't asked to pay for any of it) 2023 cap will allow some multi year contracts should both perform as expected.

Thanks Tarihawk. Good grief the disrespect shown Penney by people still arguing about his draft position is beyond the pale . For one thing Penney was healthy almost 2 years , really not his fault PC kept running a top 10 back out there when he had a potential all pro on the pine. He lost 2020 but the last 6 games was historic . I recall Procise having 2 nice games in 5 years . Vs the pats in foxborough he led the team in Rushing and also receiving . A few weeks later he housed it from 75 which I think set the Clink record for a TD run at the time . He broke his clavicle later in the game and I don’t remember seeing him much at all other than the injury report . Other than similar skill set and size there’s no comparison.

[Aseahawkfan]

Depending on how Walker produces, it's likely going to be a tag team operation between Penny and Walker, similar to how the Browns rotate between Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt. Given Penny's injury history and suspect blocking, limiting his work load to 12-15 touches a game would make a ton of sense. It also gives us the option of playing the hot hand, play which ever RB is having the best success at the time.

But who's carrying the rock is just one part of the equation. There's lots of question marks on the OL, including the prospect of starting two rookies at tackle. And if the defense struggles, it could force us to abandon the running game early.

It's going to be an interesting season, at least to start out with.

If you're going to get things going in the right direction during a year with low expectations, you don't abandon the run game. You keep grinding so your tackles and backs can learn. I think Pete is fairly disciplined about sticking with the plan even if losing big as he knows he's building for the future and wants to keep the game plan to see if they're meshing by the second half of the season.

I expect to keep grinding regardless of how other units are doing. Pete knows what it takes to get a team to mesh and test the talent. He won't turn desperate if it starts off slow in the first half with the rooks. He don't have the QBs to get desperate anyway. I'm pretty certain he knows that. If the run game isn't working, he isn't going to be able to rely on Lock and Smith to take over games like he could Wilson.

[RiverDog]

Depending on how Walker produces, it's likely going to be a tag team operation between Penny and Walker, similar to how the Browns rotate between Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt. Given Penny's injury history and suspect blocking, limiting his work load to 12-15 touches a game would make a ton of sense. It also gives us the option of playing the hot hand, play which ever RB is having the best success at the time.

But who's carrying the rock is just one part of the equation. There's lots of question marks on the OL, including the prospect of starting two rookies at tackle. And if the defense struggles, it could force us to abandon the running game early.

It's going to be an interesting season, at least to start out with.

If you're going to get things going in the right direction during a year with low expectations, you don't abandon the run game. You keep grinding so your tackles and backs can learn. I think Pete is fairly disciplined about sticking with the plan even if losing big as he knows he's building for the future and wants to keep the game plan to see if they're meshing by the second half of the season.

I expect to keep grinding regardless of how other units are doing. Pete knows what it takes to get a team to mesh and test the talent. He won't turn desperate if it starts off slow in the first half with the rooks. He don't have the QBs to get desperate anyway. I'm pretty certain he knows that. If the run game isn't working, he isn't going to be able to rely on Lock and Smith to take over games like he could Wilson.

If you're down 21-0 in the 2nd half, you're not going to keep pounding the rock. The game situation will drive play calling.

[tarlhawk]

Having two explosive RB who can take a burst through open space into the endzone...makes being two scores down or better not a "forced" passing necessity...the key is both becoming pass pro students so they can be options to Travis Homer who has done well in draw plays already but not with a homerun hitter fear invoking back like Penny and Kenneth.

[Aseahawkfan]

If you're down 21-0 in the 2nd half, you're not going to keep pounding the rock. The game situation will drive play calling.

Pete will keep pounding the rock.

The game situation only dictates play calling if you have the personnel for that to work, which we don't and won't next year.

I disagree. I think the stats will bear it out should we be in that situation next year. We will keep an eye on it.

[RiverDog]

If you're down 21-0 in the 2nd half, you're not going to keep pounding the rock. The game situation will drive play calling.

Pete will keep pounding the rock.

The game situation only dictates play calling if you have the personnel for that to work, which we don't and won't next year.

I disagree. I think the stats will bear it out should we be in that situation next year. We will keep an eye on it.

No, he won't. Pete's stubborn, but he's not that stubborn. No NFL coach is going to stick with his original game plan if he's down 3 TD's in the 2nd half.

I will say that Pete Ball calls for keeping games close with good defense and running the ball, so there wasn't a lot of situations where he had to venture away from his game plan. I think that at one point, we set an NFL record for the most consecutive games where we didn't lose by more than 10 points, which is a tribute to his philosophy.

But that was then. We don't have a top 5 defense like Pete had for the first half of his tenure here. He's not going to be able to stuff the ball down the throats of his opponents like he used to. IMO he's going to be forced to open it up.

[Aseahawkfan]

No, he won't. Pete's stubborn, but he's not that stubborn. No NFL coach is going to stick with his original game plan if he's down 3 TD's in the 2nd half.

I will say that Pete Ball calls for keeping games close with good defense and running the ball, so there wasn't a lot of situations where he had to venture away from his game plan. I think that at one point, we set an NFL record for the most consecutive games where we didn't lose by more than 10 points, which is a tribute to his philosophy.

But that was then. We don't have a top 5 defense like Pete had for the first half of his tenure here. He's not going to be able to stuff the ball down the throats of his opponents like he used to. IMO he's going to be forced to open it up.

Then we have a gentleman's bet, because I've seen us be down by 21 points and keep on pounding the rock in the early years. Why? We didn't have the capability to do anything else.

Pete only started giving up on the run game when he had an elite QB and was down. He doesn't have that any more, so he doesn't have the option to throw a lot and succeed. So not sure why you think he would.

You ready for these types of games? Remember when Charlie Whitehurst was the starter? That's gonna happen this year like it hasn't for 10 years.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201012260tam.htm

[RiverDog]

Then we have a gentleman's bet, because I've seen us be down by 21 points and keep on pounding the rock in the early years. Why? We didn't have the capability to do anything else.

You didn't see very many games with us down 3 TD's in the 2nd half in those early years because it never happened. From 2011-2014, we set an all time NFL record by playing 46 consecutive games without losing by more than 8 points:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Seahawks/comme ... ut_losing/

So unless you're talking about Pete's first season in 2010, it didn't happen. That streak was mostly a byproduct of our top 5 defenses and what allowed Pete to play as conservative of an offense as he did in those early years. We no longer have a defense anywhere close to as good as those early teams had, so I guarantee you that if Pete finds himself down by 3 TD's in the 2nd half, like any other NFL coach, he's going to do what it takes to win that game and will throw his game plan out the window. He won't continue to pound the rock just out of pure stubbornness.

But I'll gladly take your gentleman's bet.

[Hawktawk]

Watch the putrid Titans game again . Down 2 TDs at the half vrabel came out with a journeyman qb and a bell cow back in Henry and continued pounding the rock . Seattle didn’t get a first down most of the second half other than a 50 yard bomb to Swain on a busted coverage 3rd down and 12. Our D got gassed , they caught us . Won in overtime in the most dramatic example of how non clutch Wilson had become -12 3 and out almost a safety with the ball in his hands to win the game .

To vrabels credit even with Henry out he got a pedestrian QB, great D, big strong wideouts to the 1 seed..

We will run on anyone . We will throw more then you think on people . Geno went 17-21 targeting DK. Completed 10 passes to Lockett in the first half !!!!vs JAx. One more time where was the superstar play last season ? Middle of the pack performance with a superstar paycheck and attitude to match
Bring it on .

[NorthHawk]

The Titan's OL is far superior to the Seahawks. There's absolutely no comparison.
As well, Tannehill is a much better QB than either of ours so the threat to pass was still there.

[Hawktawk]

The Titan's OL is far superior to the Seahawks. There's absolutely no comparison.
As well, Tannehill is a much better QB than either of ours so the threat to pass was still there.

Although PC liked him and it was rumored we would take him if available Tannehill has never been more than a B grade qb at best , injury prone , a bust in Miami . I credit Vrabel with making it work . But he threw 3 picks in the divisional including 1 with 20 seconds left to give Joe Cool enough time to get off the mat after a record 9 sacks and win . Vrabel is so confident he drafted a Qb. I would not want Tannehill here . We don’t know Genos ceiling . We sure don’t know Lockes. We know Tannehill which is you sack the opponent 9 times and he still loses you the game at home .
As for their line it looked great with Henry healthy , not so much with him hurt . Kind of like our crap line looked excellent with Penney blowing out defenses .
We will run . We will win .

[Aseahawkfan]

You didn't see very many games with us down 3 TD's in the 2nd half in those early years because it never happened. From 2011-2014, we set an all time NFL record by playing 46 consecutive games without losing by more than 8 points:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Seahawks/comme ... ut_losing/

So unless you're talking about Pete's first season in 2010, it didn't happen. That streak was mostly a byproduct of our top 5 defenses and what allowed Pete to play as conservative of an offense as he did in those early years. We no longer have a defense anywhere close to as good as those early teams had, so I guarantee you that if Pete finds himself down by 3 TD's in the 2nd half, like any other NFL coach, he's going to do what it takes to win that game and will throw his game plan out the window. He won't continue to pound the rock just out of pure stubbornness.

But I'll gladly take your gentleman's bet.

It was Pete's first year here. It's been that long. And it was our top 5 defense and brutal run game that kept the games close. You don't give up on run games because there is no better way to keep the opposing offense off the field than to run the ball. Passing gets to 3 and out real quick with no clock used.

The reason Pete likes a run game is not because of Pete Ball like some people like to call it. It's the strategy of most defensive coaches because a run game is the best way to play defense on offense. Eat clock, grind yards, sustain drives, keep the opposing offense off the field. That's why I don't think Pete will give up on the run game. He has to get it going as it is part of his overall team strategy.

So how exactly are we deciding how this bet gets settled? How many times does Pete have to run when down substantially to not be considered as abandoning the run game?

[RiverDog]

It was Pete's first year here. It's been that long. And it was our top 5 defense and brutal run game that kept the games close. You don't give up on run games because there is no better way to keep the opposing offense off the field than to run the ball. Passing gets to 3 and out real quick with no clock used.

The reason Pete likes a run game is not because of Pete Ball like some people like to call it. It's the strategy of most defensive coaches because a run game is the best way to play defense on offense. Eat clock, grind yards, sustain drives, keep the opposing offense off the field. That's why I don't think Pete will give up on the run game. He has to get it going as it is part of his overall team strategy.

So how exactly are we deciding how this bet gets settled? How many times does Pete have to run when down substantially to not be considered as abandoning the run game?

I think you're memory is a bit faulty.

First of all, we did not have a top 5 defense in 2010. We were ranked 27th in the league in yards allowed per game.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... s/dir/desc

Secondly, the games that we lost big we did not run the ball much. Here's the list of all the games we lost in 2010, all of which were by at least 2 TD's, and our run/pass ratio:

At Oakland, 33-3 loss: 32 passing attempts, 19 rushing attempts.
Vs. NY Giants, 41-7 loss: 23 passing attempts, 14 rushing attempts.
At Denver, 31-14 loss: 35 passing attempts, 20 rushing attempts.
At StL Rams, 20-3 loss: 37 passing attempts, 24 rushing attempts.
At New Orleans, 34-19 loss: 44 passing attempts, 17 rushing attempts.
Vs. Kansas City, 42-24 loss: 37 passing attempts, 12 rushing attempts.
At San Francisco, 40-21 loss: 42 passing attempts, 22 rushing attempts.
Vs. Atlanta, 34-18 loss: 33 passing attempts, 21 rushing attempts.
At Tampa Bay, 38-15 loss: 22 passing attempts, 28 rushing attempts.

The only game that would fit your theory is the loss against Tampa Bay, and in it, 4 of those running attempts were quarterbacks, so it's actually a little over a 50/50 split.

And lastly, in 2010, we ranked 31st in the league in total rushing yards, 28th in total rushing attempts:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... s/dir/desc

Pete was not pounding the rock in 2010, and by 2011, he'd built a top 10 defense whereby he never trailed by much.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think you're memory is a bit faulty.

First of all, we did not have a top 5 defense in 2010. We were ranked 27th in the league in yards allowed per game.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... s/dir/desc

Secondly, the games that we lost big we did not run the ball much. Here's the list of all the games we lost in 2010, all of which were by at least 2 TD's, and our run/pass ratio:

At Oakland, 33-3 loss: 32 passing attempts, 19 rushing attempts.
Vs. NY Giants, 41-7 loss: 23 passing attempts, 14 rushing attempts.
At Denver, 31-14 loss: 35 passing attempts, 20 rushing attempts.
At StL Rams, 20-3 loss: 37 passing attempts, 24 rushing attempts.
At New Orleans, 34-19 loss: 44 passing attempts, 17 rushing attempts.
Vs. Kansas City, 42-24 loss: 37 passing attempts, 12 rushing attempts.
At San Francisco, 40-21 loss: 42 passing attempts, 22 rushing attempts.
Vs. Atlanta, 34-18 loss: 33 passing attempts, 21 rushing attempts.
At Tampa Bay, 38-15 loss: 22 passing attempts, 28 rushing attempts.

The only game that would fit your theory is the loss against Tampa Bay, and in it, 4 of those running attempts were quarterbacks, so it's actually a little over a 50/50 split.

And lastly, in 2010, we ranked 31st in the league in total rushing yards, 28th in total rushing attempts:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... s/dir/desc

Pete was not pounding the rock in 2010, and by 2011, he'd built a top 10 defense whereby he never trailed by much.

What do you mean fit my theory? You haven't even come up with the criteria for what you consider abandoning the run. Come up with the criteria for what you consider abandoning the run. I think he will still run the ball even if we're down substantially.

I'm not talking about that first year. I'm talking in general. The run game is necessary for a defensive team. Pete likes to run the ball because it is a defensive strategy. The first year is irrelevant.

Just come up with the criteria for us to settle this bet. You almost always have more passing attempts than rushing attempts. But what's your expectation for the ratio if we get down? 0 rushing? 2/3 passing to 1/3 rushing? What is the criteria?

Right now we're at the point where you think I'm saying he's going to run more than pass which I am not and I'm thinking you're saying if we get down he will completely abandon the run game and not run at all. I'm not sure you're thinking that either.

So what is the criteria you're looking at?

[Hawktawk]

We have bell cow running backs , plural with the addition of Walker 3. We have bell cow receivers , arguably the most dominant physical explosive wideout in the game in DK, flat out the best slot guy , not too many slot guys take off the top like the rocket . Swain doesn’t catch many balls but has something like 4 50 yard TDcatches . Eskridge lurks . Fant is a beast . Any competent qb will abuse defenses with a guy that big with that wingspan running 4.5. He was the best receiver on the broncos . We’re not freakin losing

[RiverDog]

I think you're memory is a bit faulty.

First of all, we did not have a top 5 defense in 2010. We were ranked 27th in the league in yards allowed per game.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... s/dir/desc

Secondly, the games that we lost big we did not run the ball much. Here's the list of all the games we lost in 2010, all of which were by at least 2 TD's, and our run/pass ratio:

At Oakland, 33-3 loss: 32 passing attempts, 19 rushing attempts.
Vs. NY Giants, 41-7 loss: 23 passing attempts, 14 rushing attempts.
At Denver, 31-14 loss: 35 passing attempts, 20 rushing attempts.
At StL Rams, 20-3 loss: 37 passing attempts, 24 rushing attempts.
At New Orleans, 34-19 loss: 44 passing attempts, 17 rushing attempts.
Vs. Kansas City, 42-24 loss: 37 passing attempts, 12 rushing attempts.
At San Francisco, 40-21 loss: 42 passing attempts, 22 rushing attempts.
Vs. Atlanta, 34-18 loss: 33 passing attempts, 21 rushing attempts.
At Tampa Bay, 38-15 loss: 22 passing attempts, 28 rushing attempts.

The only game that would fit your theory is the loss against Tampa Bay, and in it, 4 of those running attempts were quarterbacks, so it's actually a little over a 50/50 split.

And lastly, in 2010, we ranked 31st in the league in total rushing yards, 28th in total rushing attempts:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... s/dir/desc

Pete was not pounding the rock in 2010, and by 2011, he'd built a top 10 defense whereby he never trailed by much.

What do you mean fit my theory? You haven't even come up with the criteria for what you consider abandoning the run. Come up with the criteria for what you consider abandoning the run. I think he will still run the ball even if we're down substantially.

I'm not talking about that first year. I'm talking in general. The run game is necessary for a defensive team. Pete likes to run the ball because it is a defensive strategy. The first year is irrelevant.

Just come up with the criteria for us to settle this bet. You almost always have more passing attempts than rushing attempts. But what's your expectation for the ratio if we get down? 0 rushing? 2/3 passing to 1/3 rushing? What is the criteria?

Right now we're at the point where you think I'm saying he's going to run more than pass which I am not and I'm thinking you're saying if we get down he will completely abandon the run game and not run at all. I'm not sure you're thinking that either.

So what is the criteria you're looking at?

You're the one that ought to be establishing a criteria. You're the one that made the statement that Pete would still ground and pound the rock even if he was behind. You should be showing me the numbers rather than forcing me to do your homework for you.

However, to answer your question, in today's NFL, if you run more than you pass, ie 50% or greater running plays, then it's a run heavy, pound the rock offense. That happened in just one of our 9 losses in 2010. As a matter of fact, during the entire 2010 season, we ran the ball just 41% of the time. It was before we had a great defense, before Russell Wilson had arrived, and Beast had just arrived in a mid season trade. Before then our lead running back was Justin Forsett, not exactly a pound the rock sort of guy.

Compare that 41% run percentage in 2010 and 47% in 2011 when we still didn't have a top 5 defense or a running quarterback, to 57% in 2012, 55% in 2013, and 54% in 2014, the height of our LOB when Russell was running read options, Beast was at the peak of his career, and we had top 5 defenses.

Bottom line is that when Pete didn't have a top 5 defense ie 2010 and 2011, he didn't run the ball. Pete Ball only works when you have a very good defense like he did in 2012, 2013, and 2014 with a point guard like Russell Wilson running it. Unless he has a defense that limits the scoring of his opponents, Pete won't be running the ball more than 50% of the time.

[tarlhawk]

Having a top defense and a balanced offense featuring the run are mutually benefiting...a strong running attack moves the chains and tips time of possession into a favorable position. This in turn allows the defense to rest and allow the defensive "coaching trust" to relay a reaction to what is being observed on the field. Go Hawks