Trade Metcalf

[NorthHawk]

I posed that question a month or so ago but didn’t think of Harbaugh and the Ravens.

Harbaugh and Carroll’s NFL career have roughly paralleled each other with both winning a SB then
slipping into just playoff appearances. However the Ravens have restocked their talent while the
Seahawks have watched it slip away. The difference is the Ravens have a Front Office that doesn’t
answer to the HC so they make better talent choices.

[Aseahawkfan]

I posed that question a month or so ago but didn’t think of Harbaugh and the Ravens.

Harbaugh and Carroll’s NFL career have roughly paralleled each other with both winning a SB then
slipping into just playoff appearances. However the Ravens have restocked their talent while the
Seahawks have watched it slip away. The difference is the Ravens have a Front Office that doesn’t
answer to the HC so they make better talent choices.

I don't like it when the coach has too much control myself. Bill B seems the only one who has managed it a long time because he's a football robot.

[RiverDog]

I posed that question a month or so ago but didn’t think of Harbaugh and the Ravens.

Harbaugh and Carroll’s NFL career have roughly paralleled each other with both winning a SB then
slipping into just playoff appearances. However the Ravens have restocked their talent while the
Seahawks have watched it slip away. The difference is the Ravens have a Front Office that doesn’t
answer to the HC so they make better talent choices.

I don't like it when the coach has too much control myself. Bill B seems the only one who has managed it a long time because he's a football robot.

I don't mind the coach having complete control like Pete has, so long as they're smart about it, delegate what they can't or aren't competent enough to manage, learn to share power. Pete seems to be more of a control freak, doesn't recognize, or at least didn't until recently, that the team could benefit from some form of genuine power sharing.

There's a fine line between delegating and losing touch. I remember Chuck Knox once saying that he'd seen teams with an offensive coordinator in charge of the offense, a defensive coordinator in charge of the defense, a special teams coach in charge of special teams, and a head coach that wasn't in charge of anything.

[Hawktawk]

I posed that question a month or so ago but didn’t think of Harbaugh and the Ravens.

Harbaugh and Carroll’s NFL career have roughly paralleled each other with both winning a SB then
slipping into just playoff appearances. However the Ravens have restocked their talent while the
Seahawks have watched it slip away. The difference is the Ravens have a Front Office that doesn’t
answer to the HC so they make better talent choices.

That Raven team has won exactly what ? How many super bowl championships ? What have they done with all their superior talent ? What talent acquisition is so far superior ? A college style run around QB whose akready breaking down ? How many NFC north titles playing Cleveland and Cincy twice a year . Why is the raven organization so far superior ? Explain it .

[NorthHawk]

You simply have to look at the talent level on both teams to see the Ravens have done a better job than us.
Who would you think is closer to being a SB contender - Seattle? If you think that then you've gone down the rabbit hole and can't be saved until this regime is gone.

[c_hawkbob]

I'll just say this about that:

Hairball's record (including playoffs) in B-more: 148–96 (.607)
Carroll's record in Seattle: 129-81-1 (.629)

[Aseahawkfan]

I'll just say this about that:

Hairball's record (including playoffs) in B-more: 148–96 (.607)
Carroll's record in Seattle: 129-81-1 (.629)

Why are you calling John Hairball? John seems like a good guy.

[Aseahawkfan]

You simply have to look at the talent level on both teams to see the Ravens have done a better job than us.
Who would you think is closer to being a SB contender - Seattle? If you think that then you've gone down the rabbit hole and can't be saved until this regime is gone.

Harbaugh won one Super Bowl like Carroll.

Billick won the other one.

I guess I was wrong in that Harbaugh did it with the same team. I guess no coach other than Bill B I can recall in recent memory has had multiple Super Bowl eras. Only Belichick has done it. Not even Harbaugh.

So can Carroll rebuild a Super Bowl team? Unlikely as the group that has done it is a club of one.

I think Carroll's shelf life is expired. Great coach. Always be loved in Seattle. He's set the bar for Seattle that is going to be hard for anyone to surpass. I'll always like the guy and what he did for Seattle. But for whatever reasons, coaches reach a point where they can't get it done any more. I think Carroll has reached that point. If he gets us back and wins, he'll be bucking a trend that has been part of the NFL for nearly as a long as I've been watching.

Even Parcells often considered a great coach manage to win Super Bowls with the Giants, but just get back with another team but never win.

I guess it's my investor mindset as the best way to view future potential is based on past performance and the reality is that coaches who win Super Bowls and get as a high as Pete never repeat that success. You put together that magic one time, sustain it as long as you can as Pete and John did, but then it's all done and it's nearly impossible to get done again. Why do some Seattle fans think Pete can buck the trend?

[NorthHawk]

Well, it’s possible but not probable.
If Pete was in his 50’s I might think differently but at the end of his career it seems like he’s
looking for quick fixes instead of building momentum towards a SB run. The trades have been bad
and the drafting poor for the most part and it’s left the team with less than optimal talent.

Pete will always be revered here for bringing us a Lombardi trophy, but all good things tarnish with
time and I think it’s time for this regime to move on.

[Aseahawkfan]

Does anyone know any coaches that have had multiple Super Bowl Eras? I can't think of any.

Growing up, I know the coaches that made magic at least once:

1. Knoll in Pitt
2. Tom Landry in Dallas
3. Jimmy in Dallas
4. Walsh in Frisco
5. Ditka one time in Chicago
6. Parcels in New York
7. Gibbs with the Redskins with different QBs.
8. Don Shula in Miami
9. Holmgren in Green Bay and he got us to a Super Bowl here, but no win. Then fell off hard.
10. Bill Belichick with new England across 2 decades with the same QB who is the best in NFL history

I can't think of any coaches building Super Bowl teams after their magic team fell apart or doing it with two teams.

If Pete can do a Bill B, maybe he can do a second Super Bowl Era. He would really be bucking a trend if he can pull off a second Super Bowl win with the same team rebuilding it after trading away the franchise QB.

[RiverDog]

Tom Coughlin won two spaced 4 years apart, both with Eli. The Giants fired Coughlin 4 years after he won his 2nd.

I do agree with your premise, that it's much less likely for a coach like Pete to rebuild a team into a Lombardi champion without a franchise QB than it is with one.

[c_hawkbob]

I'll just say this about that:

Hairball's record (including playoffs) in B-more: 148–96 (.607)
Carroll's record in Seattle: 129-81-1 (.629)

Why are you calling John Hairball? John seems like a good guy.

Oh I agree there's a good Hairball and a bad Hairball but the name's still Hairball.

[Oly]

Back to Metcalf...

If it seems unlikely Pete will be here much longer (whether due to age or what y'all have been discussing above about the low probability of building another SB team), do we really want to get rid of Metcalf? Sure, he's not a good use of dollars in Pete's system, but if we sign him to a new contract, doesn't it seem likely that by the end of that contract he'd be playing for a new coach anyway?

The counterpoint, of course, is that you shouldn't sign a player thinking about the next coach, but DK's play is good enough that I think he would be welcomed by any coach.

[RiverDog]

Back to Metcalf...

If it seems unlikely Pete will be here much longer (whether due to age or what y'all have been discussing above about the low probability of building another SB team), do we really want to get rid of Metcalf? Sure, he's not a good use of dollars in Pete's system, but if we sign him to a new contract, doesn't it seem likely that by the end of that contract he'd be playing for a new coach anyway?

The counterpoint, of course, is that you shouldn't sign a player thinking about the next coach, but DK's play is good enough that I think he would be welcomed by any coach.

To reiterate my take: It isn't so much about the player as it is the position. You do not build teams around a highly paid wide receiver. IMO the WR position is the most over rated of any on the field. You do not need to be a world class athlete to excel (see Cooper Kupp). Good wide receivers are a dime a dozen.

If you accept that premise, if you're not willing to pay north of $25M a year keeping in mind Tyler Lockett will be pulling down $15M, then it makes sense to trade Metcalf now while he's still under contract rather than let him walk and get nothing but a bottom of the 3rd round comp pick in return.

[NorthHawk]

Add to that with the College game producing excellent WRs (largely because of the Offensive systems they use), there are more to choose from every year.
Players like DK don't come around every year, but suitable replacements can be found in the draft.
I also think that because there are so many good WRs in this years draft, teams aren't offering what our FO wanted in trade compensation. It may be a trend
in future years with WR's as the college game doesn't seem to be changing.

[Hawktawk]

There isn’t a DK in this draft or most drafts . And the same guys who thing john and Pete are idiots think this guy is worth too much in trade to pass up that is not the point . DK is in camp . This team is fired up . Lock and load . Any quarterback looks good throwing to DK . Geno better than Russ . 251 yards and 4 TDs with a qbr of 150.5 in 13 quarters including 2 of DKs biggest games in a 17 game schedule were Geno games . Stats don’t lie

[RiverDog]

Add to that with the College game producing excellent WRs (largely because of the Offensive systems they use), there are more to choose from every year.

Good point. It's the opposite situation from that with offensive linemen.

Players like DK don't come around every year, but suitable replacements can be found in the draft. I also think that because there are so many good WRs in this years draft, teams aren't offering what our FO wanted in trade compensation. It may be a trend in future years with WR's as the college game doesn't seem to be changing.

It's quite possible that wide receivers will price themselves out of the market where contending teams that have a franchise QB in place, teams like the Chiefs and Packers, simply can't afford a spendy wide receiver when their production can be so easily replaced.

[NorthHawk]

There are three players at 6ft or more who are faster and better route runners. There are also some good
possession Wrs who are 6’2” or above. And since we aren’t using DK to his optimum, they could be replace
his productivity. Add in lesser QB play and it makes sense to move him for a player we could get much cheaper
for at least 4 years.
Bottom line is a trade would help DK become the WR he can and should be and we could get similar production at a
lower cost.

[NorthHawk]

It's quite possible that wide receivers will price themselves out of the market where contending teams that have a franchise QB in place, teams like the Chiefs and Packers, simply can't afford a spendy wide receiver when their production can be so easily replaced.

Maybe, but I think part of the Adams and hill trades were because of age and how old they will be at the end of
their contracts. Like the Belichick formula of getting rid of those before their best before date arrives.
With the Cap expected to reach more than $250M in the next few years it won’t be as much of a concern in
the years ahead.

[Hawktawk]

There are three players at 6ft or more who are faster and better route runners. There are also some good
possession Wrs who are 6’2” or above. And since we aren’t using DK to his optimum, they could be replace
his productivity. Add in lesser QB play and it makes sense to move him for a player we could get much cheaper
for at least 4 years.
Bottom line is a trade would help DK become the WR he can and should be and we could get similar production at a
lower cost.

I rather doubt there are many receivers faster then Dk, certainly not padded up football speed. Ask Budda Baker . He is the strongest wideout in the game , one of the strongest men ever to play the position. As for a lesser quarterback coming so we don’t need him because we’re not using him? Our lesser QB went 17-21 for 251 and 4 TDs and a QBR of 151 targeting Geno in 13 quarters . You’re correct about Russ though . He didn’t connect with him until the seventh game back vs the bears . He threw him several last 2 games during his Denver Tryout that likely restored his trade value.

Why I don’t know because I think both Lockett and DK were over 1k in 2020 with Russ . But I never heard DK comment about “ never had a ball like that “ after Geno force fed him 2 touchdowns in his last start .
I think whoever starts for Seattle is gonna like DK and use him just fine. A team with great skill players doesn’t need a franchise Qb, especially one that doesn’t play like it anymore .

[RiverDog]

There are three players at 6ft or more who are faster and better route runners. There are also some good
possession Wrs who are 6’2” or above. And since we aren’t using DK to his optimum, they could be replace his productivity. Add in lesser QB play and it makes sense to move him for a player we could get much cheaper for at least 4 years.

Bottom line is a trade would help DK become the WR he can and should be and we could get similar production at a
lower cost.

I rather doubt there are many receivers faster then Dk, certainly not padded up football speed. Ask Budda Baker . He is the strongest wideout in the game , one of the strongest men ever to play the position.

So what? You don't need to be the fastest or the strongest to excel at the position. Ask Cooper Kupp. Tyler Lockett isn't going to win any iron man competitions. Wide receiver is much more a finesse position than it is a strength and speed position.

As a matter of fact, I can't think of very many wide receivers that were known for their physical strength. It's just not that important of an attribute for a receiver. It might even be a bad quality to have, sort of like having a muscle bound quarterback. Besides, Metcalf doesn't utilize his size and strength blocking.

Besides, the debate isn't whether or not Metcalf is a great receiver. He is, definitely Pro Bowl quality. The thing is that we don't need him. There are much more valuable positions to spend our limited resources on than a wide receiver.

[Hawktawk]

As far as the question can Pete win another at his age I don’t know . For one think Pete is 70 in number only . He looks and acts like a guy in his 50s or early 60s at latest . Beyond that it’s a crap shoot for all these guys . All these legends still coaching and haven’t won squat in forever other than Belichick and he hasn’t won a playoff game in 3 years . Tennessee was 30 seconds from advancing . Buffalo was 13 seconds from advancing . The bengals and Joe Burrow needed a millisecond longer to hit Jamaar Chase for a game winner but Donald the real MVP
Stopped it . So Stafford gets his ring along with McVeigh who I never thought would be worth a damn when he was hired . Now most everyone says do it the Rams way go get a quarterback when the dude led the league in picks and pick 6s and may have lost to the 9ers for the third time had the defender caught the balloon Stafford threw . There’s no formula . Even our great run to back to back Super Bowls we were lucky and good . Without Sherman tipping that ball to Smith we might not have gone at all. We won’t know . And we dominated. In 2014 Russ played the worst statistical playoff winning performance in history I believe . Without our special teams and defense making huge plays all game there was no overtime for Russell’s heroics . And there were Russ heroics . To me the first was getting up when Mathew’s lit him up . The second was the 2 point throw , an amazing play I got razzed for thinking was cool. Then they were on my butt 2 weeks later when I dared to suggest he was most responsible for the loss with his pick . So I can’t win . But bottom line as Henry Ford said. “ history is bunk “
As long as it’s mathematically possible history means nothing in sports . I’ve seen worst to first lots of times . We’re not worst by any means . We have as good a shot as anyone .

[Hawktawk]

So what? You don't need to be the fastest or the strongest to excel at the position. Ask Cooper Kupp. Tyler Lockett isn't going to win any iron man competitions. Wide receiver is much more a finesse position than it is a strength and speed position.

As a matter of fact, I can't think of very many wide receivers that were known for their physical strength. It's just not that important of an attribute for a receiver. It might even be a bad quality to have, sort of like having a muscle bound quarterback. Besides, Metcalf doesn't utilize his size and strength blocking.

Besides, the debate isn't whether or not Metcalf is a great receiver. He is, definitely Pro Bowl quality. The thing is that we don't need him. There are much more valuable positions to spend our limited resources on than a wide receiver.[/quote]

Why are teams trading high picks and signing huge deals with them now ? Why are these elite receivers in a buyers market ? I think kinda like the Russ thing the owner and coach and GM are on the same page . They want to keep him around and if he was trade bait they wouldn’t want him on a football field nor would his agent want him out there . I’ve been all in since he hawked down Baker . And you are delusional if you think DK doesn’t block or use his size and strength in his game . You’re welcome to your view I kinda see it Pete’s way . You can win lots of games with DK.

[Aseahawkfan]

Tom Coughlin won two spaced 4 years apart, both with Eli. The Giants fired Coughlin 4 years after he won his 2nd.

I do agree with your premise, that it's much less likely for a coach like Pete to rebuild a team into a Lombardi champion without a franchise QB than it is with one.

I'm talking to distinct Super Bowl eras where the team fell completely apart and then was built back up over two decades.

Giants were still the same Giants with maybe a few player changes when Coughlin won the second one.

I'm talking a completely tear down and rebuild of a team across two decades. The Patriots had only one player that was the same from their first Super Bowl to their last and that was Tom Brady.

[Aseahawkfan]

Back to Metcalf...

If it seems unlikely Pete will be here much longer (whether due to age or what y'all have been discussing above about the low probability of building another SB team), do we really want to get rid of Metcalf? Sure, he's not a good use of dollars in Pete's system, but if we sign him to a new contract, doesn't it seem likely that by the end of that contract he'd be playing for a new coach anyway?

The counterpoint, of course, is that you shouldn't sign a player thinking about the next coach, but DK's play is good enough that I think he would be welcomed by any coach.

I love having a great WR.

But when I analyze winning football teams in the modern era, having a DK Metcalf is a luxury that becomes a liability when they take too much of the cap space even more than a QB.

The days when you have elite players at nearly every position have been over for some time now. The one position that is taking the hit for this is the WR position and RB position. Whereas before you wanted to have your big 3 on offense with an elite QB, WR, and RB. Now you can only really afford the elite QB. Then you gotta cut corners everywhere else.

Team building in the modern football era seems like this to me:

1. QB: As good as you can get at this position.

2. WR/TE: A good, but not elite group, that is cost effective and can get the job done. If you get an elite WR in the draft, awesome. Play him for his first contract, then when he prices you out of keeping him trade him for a good draft pick.

3. RB. Find a duo of grinders. If you manage to draft an elite RB, do like the WRs or maybe a second contract if reasonable and he is extremely durable.

4. Build as elite a defense as possible. You want a group of good pass rushers, not all your money in a single great pass rusher. You want at least one good CB and good Safety, then serviceable guys as you can find them.

5. Spend as little as you can on special teams, while having a few quality core ST players and a good kicker who can get it done.

That's the modern model for football. It's not so much I don't want to keep DK, it's that I think he will price himself off our team and out of our market because we can't spend that much on two WRs. The only thing that might adjust that is if Pete and John can get one of these cheap QBs to work well which will free up cash to retain DK or draft a great QB cheap who is working to earn that big second contract.

[tarlhawk]

You don't have to do complete rebuilds in today's NFL...unless your owner guts the leadership (HC and GM). There is no magic formula to attaining SB supremacy...too many variables exist to begin with...then you add NFL "forces in effect" to limit the ability to have dynasties.

You don't have to pick in the upper rounds of a draft to land a premier prospect...but most NFL teams are good enough to keep too many elite prospects from slipping to the lower rounds. Just getting an above average player carries no guarantees...more variables of how he "fits" with your current offensive/defensive playbooks or even the personalities/skills of the existing team players...is he coachable? Where is his expected floor/ceiling? Does your team have the coaching/atmosphere to get the best out of him? Can he make the adjustment from College expectations to NFL professional expectations? What kind of personal drive does he possess to improve his skills? How does he adapt to his new location away from camp?

DK Metcalf like many elite receivers offers many intangibles...does his work ethic inspire the other receivers in camp? Does he share any insights/feedback to his QB? On the field he is very dynamic in how a defense has to prepare for him and since he is not our only bonafide play maker the defense has to gamble on when to give him the most attention. Both of our potential starting QBs have strong arms ...so depending on how well they survive "in the pocket"...the ability to exploit DK's skillset keeps him as a dangerous target. Physical WR's break tackles "in space" and DK has the speed to take it home on any given play.
Was his foot injury a factor last year? What does a healthier...more experienced DK add to our Offensive Explosion potential? ...not enough Jalen Ramseys to go around...and even he doesn't look like he's having a good time drawing DK's assignment.

[Aseahawkfan]

You don't have to do complete rebuilds in today's NFL...unless your owner guts the leadership (HC and GM). There is no magic formula to attaining SB supremacy...too many variables exist to begin with...then you add NFL "forces in effect" to limit the ability to have dynasties.

You don't have to pick in the upper rounds of a draft to land a premier prospect...but most NFL teams are good enough to keep too many elite prospects from slipping to the lower rounds. Just getting an above average player carries no guarantees...more variables of how he "fits" with your current offensive/defensive playbooks or even the personalities/skills of the existing team players...is he coachable? Where is his expected floor/ceiling? Does your team have the coaching/atmosphere to get the best out of him? Can he make the adjustment from College expectations to NFL professional expectations? What kind of personal drive does he possess to improve his skills? How does he adapt to his new location away from camp?

DK Metcalf like many elite receivers offers many intangibles...does his work ethic inspire the other receivers in camp? Does he share any insights/feedback to his QB? On the field he is very dynamic in how a defense has to prepare for him and since he is not our only bonafide play maker the defense has to gamble on when to give him the most attention. Both of our potential starting QBs have strong arms ...so depending on how well they survive "in the pocket"...the ability to exploit DK's skillset keeps him as a dangerous target. Physical WR's break tackles "in space" and DK has the speed to take it home on any given play.
Was his foot injury a factor last year? What does a healthier...more experienced DK add to our Offensive Explosion potential? ...not enough Jalen Ramseys to go around...and even he doesn't look like he's having a good time drawing DK's assignment.

I don't agree. There is a method for building perennial contenders and Super Bowl teams and elite WR is pretty low on that list of positions to pay for.

I think Bill B. has pretty much created the system for modern NFL franchise building. He pays almost no one. Modern NFL salary cap has made it so tying up too much of your cap into certain elite players at low value positions is not a great idea. Better to build through the draft or sign solid performers who take reasonable pay than pay elite performers.

I believe you put yourself in rebuild mode any time you don't have the QB position figured out. You can have every piece of a team together and if you don't have the QB position figured out, then your chances of a SB are extremely low. The Rams and 49ers had great pieces on their teams. QB position was holding them back from seriously competing for years. Figuring out the QB position is the single most important factor in team building.

There are obvious ways in the modern that a team must be built. The HC is one component. You can change out HCs if you have the QB position figured out. HCs sink and swim by finding and developing a QB. The single most important thing a HC and GM must do when building a team that will separate success from failure is find the QB to lead your team.

So I greatly disagree that having the HC and GM is what decides a rebuild. The QB position decides a rebuild. If you gut the QB position as we have done, you are in a rebuild mode even with the same HC and GM.

This as obvious as sun rising in the morning that this is how it works. I'm not sure why anyone watching football for any length doesn't understand this simple reality. It's why the Rams spent so much to get Stafford and the 49ers the same. They had all the pieces in place for a great team and a SB run, but the QB. No QB and your team is hobbled barring some lucky run. But yearly competition won't happen until the QB is settled and you'll be risking wasting the talents of your great team if you don't have the QB situation solved.

[Hawktawk]

You don't have to do complete rebuilds in today's NFL...unless your owner guts the leadership (HC and GM). There is no magic formula to attaining SB supremacy...too many variables exist to begin with...then you add NFL "forces in effect" to limit the ability to have dynasties.

You don't have to pick in the upper rounds of a draft to land a premier prospect...but most NFL teams are good enough to keep too many elite prospects from slipping to the lower rounds. Just getting an above average player carries no guarantees...more variables of how he "fits" with your current offensive/defensive playbooks or even the personalities/skills of the existing team players...is he coachable? Where is his expected floor/ceiling? Does your team have the coaching/atmosphere to get the best out of him? Can he make the adjustment from College expectations to NFL professional expectations? What kind of personal drive does he possess to improve his skills? How does he adapt to his new location away from camp?

DK Metcalf like many elite receivers offers many intangibles...does his work ethic inspire the other receivers in camp? Does he share any insights/feedback to his QB? On the field he is very dynamic in how a defense has to prepare for him and since he is not our only bonafide play maker the defense has to gamble on when to give him the most attention. Both of our potential starting QBs have strong arms ...so depending on how well they survive "in the pocket"...the ability to exploit DK's skillset keeps him as a dangerous target. Physical WR's break tackles "in space" and DK has the speed to take it home on any given play.
Was his foot injury a factor last year? What does a healthier...more experienced DK add to our Offensive Explosion potential? ...not enough Jalen Ramseys to go around...and even he doesn't look like he's having a good time drawing DK's assignment

I don't agree. There is a method for building perennial contenders and Super Bowl teams and elite WR is pretty low on that list of positions to pay for.

I think Bill B. has pretty much created the system for modern NFL franchise building. He pays almost no one. Modern NFL salary cap has made it so tying up too much of your cap into certain elite players at low value positions is not a great idea. Better to build through the draft or sign solid performers who take reasonable pay than pay elite performers.

I believe you put yourself in rebuild mode any time you don't have the QB position figured out. You can have every piece of a team together and if you don't have the QB position figured out, then your chances of a SB are extremely low. The Rams and 49ers had great pieces on their teams. QB position was holding them back from seriously competing for years. Figuring out the QB position is the single most important factor in team building.

There are obvious ways in the modern that a team must be built. The HC is one component. You can change out HCs if you have the QB position figured out. HCs sink and swim by finding and developing a QB. The single most important thing a HC and GM must do when building a team that will separate success from failure is find the QB to lead your team.

So I greatly disagree that having the HC and GM is what decides a rebuild. The QB position decides a rebuild. If you gut the QB position as we have done, you are in a rebuild mode even with the same HC and GM.

This as obvious as sun rising in the morning that this is how it works. I'm not sure why anyone watching football for any length doesn't understand this simple reality. It's why the Rams spent so much to get Stafford and the 49ers the same. They had all the pieces in place for a great team and a SB run, but the QB. No QB and your team is hobbled barring some lucky run. But yearly competition won't happen until the QB is settled and you'll be risking wasting the talents of your great team if you don't have the QB situation solved.

We didn’t “ gut” the qb position . The petulant star played bad this year and part of last and then left . We have 3 guys in that qb room right now and will possibly add another . Nobody thought we had it figured out in camp in 2012 either . Let’s see . Not too hard to improve on 6-8 for 35 million .

[c_hawkbob]

Quit correcting people when they state the plainly obvious truth dude. By any measure whatsoever Russ was 80% of our QB position, trading him gutted the position whether you are emotionally equipped to acknowledge the fact or not.

[Hawktawk]

Quit correcting people when they state the plainly obvious truth dude. By any measure whatsoever Russ was 80% of our QB position, trading him gutted the position whether you are emotionally equipped to acknowledge the fact or not.

A year ago I’d have agreed with Asea but not after the last season and a half . 6-8 and worst third down completion % in the league 42% completions for an average of 2 yards doesn’t lie . Wasn’t much better in 2020 although the record didn’t reflect it. Until 11-29 with a pick 6 in the last playoff game of his career here . The position looked gutted , hit too much.

And when he made the comments I said trade the guy . I was emotionally equipped to say that about a guy I was pushing for the MVP 3 months earlier . I knew it was over . Maybe River can find my comments .

As far as emotionally equipped to handle it look in the mirror pining for your favorite Donkey who left because he wanted to and the team and owner were sick of his petulant whining .

[RiverDog]

Quit correcting people when they state the plainly obvious truth dude. By any measure whatsoever Russ was 80% of our QB position, trading him gutted the position whether you are emotionally equipped to acknowledge the fact or not.

A year ago I’d have agreed with Asea but not after the last season and a half . 6-8 and worst third down completion % in the league 42% completions for an average of 2 yards doesn’t lie . Wasn’t much better in 2020 although the record didn’t reflect it. Until 11-29 with a pick 6 in the last playoff game of his career here . The position looked gutted , hit too much.

And when he made the comments I said trade the guy . I was emotionally equipped to say that about a guy I was pushing for the MVP 3 months earlier . I knew it was over . Maybe River can find my comments .

As far as emotionally equipped to handle it look in the mirror pining for your favorite Donkey who left because he wanted to and the team and owner were sick of his petulant whining .

I come down in the middle of this debate. There is no doubt that Russell's performance over the past 1.5 seasons had slipped, and it can't all be attributed to the injury he suffered in the middle of last season. He wasn't playing well prior to being injured and hadn't been playing well for some time. But to indicate that we are better off now without him than we were before, as what I think HT is suggesting, is preposterous.

I was good with the Russell trade simply because he wanted out, and as such, he was unlikely to sign an extension. Our roster is short on talent, we were/are in for a rebuild/reload phase, and we needed draft capital.

[tarlhawk]

Russell Wilson at his best was an elite QB who was an inspirational leader on the field...in the locker room and in our city. His loss will always be met with mixed emotions of bitterness and loss. Great men when they depart their sphere of influence cause a natural loss of hope because of the greatness already achieved whether in sports/politics...or life itself. Seen as conquerors over adversity they are admired for their effort and sacrifice.

Many can speculate on what caused this loss from our clubhouse...from our community. The loss is real and the removal of Russell Wilson for whatever reasons was a blow. The event itself should shoulder the ire...the blame...the loss... not the individuals...but the results.

Great teams in sports are given a short window to recover from loss and so ours will suffer as a team until the heavy burden placed on the men who try to fill the void is lifted. Russell made it easy to foster hope in a game's outcome...so many comebacks and victories while playing under center. He should be remembered for his positive influences on the field and within our community...not the passive aggression displayed during the ugliness of a business aspect breakup.

As fans we should appreciate the years when our upper management and Russell Wilson had career plans and goals that merged in common results. Our team on the field and along the sidelines achieved many victories and the thrill of a Super Bowl Championship can not be ignored nor sullied by a repeat opportunity denied in its final moments.

Wishing Russell Wilson the best as he hopes to begin anew with fresh surroundings...we must then allow our attention and focus to be on restored hopes with what we acquired in the unfortunate trade of our franchise QB.

We gained a QB(Drew Lock) who pales in comparison (at this stage of his development) to the QB we lost. We gained new draft capital (to improve our roster talent base and perhaps another future QB to compete with Drew or Geno in a position never looked upon as a plug and play position in the NFL). We gained two other starters in positions of need (3-tech D-line Shelby Harris and TE Noah Fant) with Fant being a young impact player with strong upside.

All of this affects the value of DK...making him an affordable luxury until we obtain our next Franchise QB and pay him commensurate with the going market.

[Hawktawk]

Russell Wilson at his best was an elite QB who was an inspirational leader on the field...in the locker room and in our city. His loss will always be met with mixed emotions of bitterness and loss. Great men when they depart their sphere of influence cause a natural loss of hope because of the greatness already achieved whether in sports/politics...or life itself. Seen as conquerors over adversity they are admired for their effort and sacrifice.

Many can speculate on what caused this loss from our clubhouse...from our community. The loss is real and the removal of Russell Wilson for whatever reasons was a blow. The event itself should shoulder the ire...the blame...the loss... not the individuals...but the results.

Great teams in sports are given a short window to recover from loss and so ours will suffer as a team until the heavy burden placed on the men who try to fill the void is lifted. Russell made it easy to foster hope in a game's outcome...so many comebacks and victories while playing under center. He should be remembered for his positive influences on the field and within our community...not the passive aggression displayed during the ugliness of a business aspect breakup.

As fans we should appreciate the years when our upper management and Russell Wilson had career plans and goals that merged in common results. Our team on the field and along the sidelines achieved many victories and the thrill of a Super Bowl Championship can not be ignored nor sullied by a repeat opportunity denied in its final moments.

Wishing Russell Wilson the best as he hopes to begin anew with fresh surroundings...we must then allow our attention and focus to be on restored hopes with what we acquired in the unfortunate trade of our franchise QB.

We gained a QB(Drew Lock) who pales in comparison (at this stage of his development) to the QB we lost. We gained new draft capital (to improve our roster talent base and perhaps another future QB to compete with Drew or Geno in a position never looked upon as a plug and play position in the NFL). We gained two other starters in positions of need (3-tech D-line Shelby Harris and TE Noah Fant) with Fant being a young impact player with strong upside.

All of this affects the value of DK...making him an affordable luxury until we obtain our next Franchise QB and pay him commensurate with the going market.

Love your posts . Truly analytical without a bunch of emotion . I wish I could replicate your style . And really I agree with much of what you wrote other than you point out how clutch the team was with Russ , never a doubt we could come back . That WAS true . The last season and a half I’m trying to remember a 2 minute drive to tie or win . One last year vs Pittsburgh with Geno starting against a team that led the NFL in sacks . Russ had 3 chances . titans in overtime 3 and out minus 12 yards . Commanders actually got a last second TD pass then froze on the 2 point , threw late and was picked . Bears needing a field goal to win went 4 and out overthrowing a wide open Lockett by 2 yards . I remember the look on Tyler’s face . We were only in the position because Russ spun out of a clean pocket and took a 14 yard sack when a chip shot wins on a snowy night .
There’s been no clutch for a while . Was it an anomaly and he will return to form ? Possibly . He looked better late in the year but still made 2 huge mistakes in the AZ game . Denver might show that . But the point is he wanted out and he left and the way he played much of last year he’s more replaceable than many think , especially with the headaches he was causing . Russ was great here.incredible . We ain’t dead cause he’s gone though . Jimmy Garrapo and Jarred Goff have been to Super Bowls since Russ has won a divisional game .

[RiverDog]

Russell Wilson at his best was an elite QB who was an inspirational leader on the field...in the locker room and in our city. His loss will always be met with mixed emotions of bitterness and loss. Great men when they depart their sphere of influence cause a natural loss of hope because of the greatness already achieved whether in sports/politics...or life itself. Seen as conquerors over adversity they are admired for their effort and sacrifice.

Many can speculate on what caused this loss from our clubhouse...from our community. The loss is real and the removal of Russell Wilson for whatever reasons was a blow. The event itself should shoulder the ire...the blame...the loss... not the individuals...but the results.

Great teams in sports are given a short window to recover from loss and so ours will suffer as a team until the heavy burden placed on the men who try to fill the void is lifted. Russell made it easy to foster hope in a game's outcome...so many comebacks and victories while playing under center. He should be remembered for his positive influences on the field and within our community...not the passive aggression displayed during the ugliness of a business aspect breakup.

As fans we should appreciate the years when our upper management and Russell Wilson had career plans and goals that merged in common results. Our team on the field and along the sidelines achieved many victories and the thrill of a Super Bowl Championship can not be ignored nor sullied by a repeat opportunity denied in its final moments.

Wishing Russell Wilson the best as he hopes to begin anew with fresh surroundings...we must then allow our attention and focus to be on restored hopes with what we acquired in the unfortunate trade of our franchise QB.

We gained a QB(Drew Lock) who pales in comparison (at this stage of his development) to the QB we lost. We gained new draft capital (to improve our roster talent base and perhaps another future QB to compete with Drew or Geno in a position never looked upon as a plug and play position in the NFL). We gained two other starters in positions of need (3-tech D-line Shelby Harris and TE Noah Fant) with Fant being a young impact player with strong upside.

All of this affects the value of DK...making him an affordable luxury until we obtain our next Franchise QB and pay him commensurate with the going market.

Love your posts . Truly analytical without a bunch of emotion . I wish I could replicate your style/

I'm shoulder to shoulder with Hawktalk. I like your contributions and I read every word of them. You obviously put a lot of thought into your compositions.

And I agree with a lot of what you are saying, except with your last sentence. If your definition of luxury is the same as mine, in other words, something that's not essential but would be nice to have, then a $25M+ per season WR and 2 WR's for $40M+ luxury is not affordable.

[Hawktawk]

DK is cheaper for Seattle then anyone else before far . I assume the asking price is at least 1 first rounder plus other high picks , maybe some players . We have a second round pick already invested that we got by trading another lousy second rounder Frank Clark for a haul .

DK is working out unlike most of these other prima Donnas demanding a trade . His play running down Budda Baker was one of the most incredible displays of speed and HUSTLE I’ve ever seen on a football field. He’s checked himself into anger management counseling without being required to . He played all year with a foot injury that cost him practice time and never complained and padded up and played .

He’s special . If you don’t have Russ and the scramble drill you need guys like this that can clearly separate . And again the same people who say Pete and John can’t draft say this guy is so damn good and expensive let’s trade him and get PC and JS more picks to F up does that make any sense ?

[tarlhawk]

If your definition of luxury is the same as mine, in other words, something that's not essential but would be nice to have, then a $25M+ per season WR and 2 WR's for $40M+ luxury is not affordable.

John Schneider has always rewarded draft selections that vindicated his efforts in the acquisition of them. The players he "moves up" in the draft to get (Tyler Lockett/Darrell Taylor/DK Metcalf) are based on his personal convictions/hunches and Darrell Taylor has that same kind of future opportunity.

These one year deals on Penny and Sidney Jones and 5th year option on Noah Fant reflect his fiscal responsibility to get to the 2023 cap money. Our "dead money" financial restraint (4th largest in the NFL) for 2022 cap is hindering his flexibility in contract acquisition...yet he delivered on essential Diggs/Penny/S.Jones/Dissly signings.

Our GM determines and has the demonstrated responsibility of "what is affordable"...I trust him.

[RiverDog]

If your definition of luxury is the same as mine, in other words, something that's not essential but would be nice to have, then a $25M+ per season WR and 2 WR's for $40M+ luxury is not affordable.

John Schneider has always rewarded draft selections that vindicated his efforts in the acquisition of them. The players he "moves up" in the draft to get (Tyler Lockett/Darrell Taylor/DK Metcalf) are based on his personal convictions/hunches and Darrell Taylor has that same kind of future opportunity.

These one year deals on Penny and Sidney Jones and 5th year option on Noah Fant reflect his fiscal responsibility to get to the 2023 cap money. Our "dead money" financial restraint (4th largest in the NFL) for 2022 cap is hindering his flexibility in contract acquisition...yet he delivered on essential Diggs/Penny/S.Jones/Dissly signings.

Our GM determines and has the demonstrated responsibility of "what is affordable"...I trust him.

Metcalf and Lockett were both great picks. The jury is still out on Taylor. We'll see just how good he is if we give him a 2nd contract or let him walk like we have with so many of our other draft picks.

I'm good with the signings, but that's not a huge feather in his cap. All he's doing is treading water, resigning decent veterans off of a mediocre roster. Our new FA signings are uninspiring by any measure.

Outside of the first couple of years of this regime, our draft selections have been mediocre at best, and if you want to factor in the trade yield from those picks, ie the Harvin/Graham/Adams trades, it looks quite a bit worse.

As far as trusting Pete/JS, all I can say is that your trust is a lot easier earned than mine is.

[Hawktawk]

The Seahawks under Pete and John have had 4 or 5 legit busts at most . Injuries don’t count . Is it an nfl player or not ? They still rank #1 over the last 10 years overall due to the sheer incredulity of the haul of perhaps 4 or 5 hall of famers in the first couple drafts . But they have been truly unlucky with injuries to Penney etc and McDowells accident . But I see a payoff . Let’s remember Phil Haynes is signed and he was playing very well blowing holes open for Penney . DK was a steal. Clark . Lockett . Carson was hell of a good back then ….What’s the point .

I’m gonna trust John . He got Wilson . One of the all time steals but to his credit Pete listened to John and made the pick . The jets scouting department begged the coach and FO to take him as early as the second round and they went as far as to call Russ right before Seattle took him. So now these guys have had Geno in the system 3 years and he never played so well in his career . They brought in Locke who Schneider liked in college , a kid with a grumpy old man coach and something like 4 O coordinators .

Frankly I found the transformation in Genos game fascinating . A bigger surprise then Penney since I never questioned his explosive house call speed and power. But if it was Seattle coaching that helped Geno and I don’t know what else it was it’s super good news for Locke and the sooner the better .

[tarlhawk]

Interesting post on the Seahawks official team website identifying our team as having the best NFL draft value selections from 2012 -2021...THE BEST!

I have felt this but seldom exclaim it boldly with wanting to keep the banter away from the confrontational aspects. ESPN has us as the top value drafter a full 10 PTS above the KC Chiefs who came in 2nd...post was under "Monday Round-up" and uses a stat-junkie type formula to derive an actual value over expected value for where draft selection occurred. Interesting tidbit for those naysayers bemoaning John Schneider/Pete Carroll draft corroborations. GO Hawks!

[RiverDog]

Interesting post on the Seahawks official team website identifying our team as having the best NFL draft value selections from 2012 -2021...THE BEST!

The Seahawks official team website. Now there's an objective source! And of course, they did not factor in those 3 trades that robbed us of multiple first round picks, along with a couple of starting players. Let's not talk about that as it doesn't fit the narrative.

I have felt this but seldom exclaim it boldly with wanting to keep the banter away from the confrontational aspects. ESPN has us as the top value drafter a full 10 PTS above the KC Chiefs who came in 2nd...post was under "Monday Round-up" and uses a stat-junkie type formula to derive an actual value over expected value for where draft selection occurred. Interesting tidbit for those naysayers bemoaning John Schneider/Pete Carroll draft corroborations. GO Hawks!

With that much raw talent available, how can any coaching staff not help but consistently go deep into the playoffs each season, reaching the SB on a number of occasions?

You can't have it both ways. You can't on the one hand claim that the Hawks coaching staff is bunch of magicians when it comes to managing draft capital yet not been able to produce results on the field....unless you're completely satisfied with just making the playoffs.