2022 NFL Draft

[mykc14]

His Tuesday Morning Quarterback column, it's really a must read. Used to be a regular on ESPN, the NFLN, not sure where he's writing now ...

And yes, it's Gregg (thanks for the correction)

Yeah, Tuesday Morning Quarterback was a great read... anybody know where he's writing now?

[govandals]

Some of the discussion has got me thinking about offensive linemen. A good line is not just 5 big horses, but a bunch of specialists. Most of the prospects want to be known as left tackles, as that is the best paid position on the line. Their actual position, though, will based on how they play. By that I mean, that the skills of a LT are very different than those of a center, and so on.

Tackles tend to be tall with long arms. Not too many 6' 2" tackles these days. Length is a bit less important at guard, and a center can get along with less size and shorter arms. Feet are key. The 40 time is immaterial, but the 10 yard split reflects a quick first step. Where the tackles make the money is by staying in front of the pass rushers, that calls for a level of quickness greater than that for interior linemen. The players time in the shuttles can give a good glimpse at who might stick as a tackle, and who might have to move inside.

Looking at the combine numbers and comparing them with the question if this player is a OT or an interior guy, I looked at height, arm length, 10 yd split, and the shuttles. In my opinion (shared by few) there 7 players that seem to be legit tackles. I only looked a players that I have seen as being drafted in the first 4 or 5 rounds.

Evan Neal did not test at the combine, but I am comfortable with him as a tackle, though I think he would be even better as a guard. After him I only see Trevor Penning and Abraham Lucas as first rounders, and both in the last half of the round. Zach Tom has all the measurables, but is likely being taken as a center. Logan Bruss, Rasheed Walker, and Matt Waletzko finish up the list.

Charles Cross is often mentioned, but I believe he is over rated. He has stature (6-4 1/4") and good straight line speed, but his shuttle times are poor. The same is true of Ikem Ekwonu, who is highly rated, but has poor feet. I did not rate Daniel Faalele, who is 6'8" and 384 pounds, as he did not put up numbers, but I suspect that his quickness is in question, and that showed at the Senior Bowl. They seem like guards to me.

Centers need to be athletic and smart. Besides making the line calls at the line of scrimmage, they need to deal with defensive tackles, and be able to pull and lead a runner off tackle. This draft has 4 really good looking ones for the first 2 or 3 rounds: Tyler Linderbaum, Cam Jurgens, Cole Strange, and the aforementioned Zack Tom.

Feel free to disagree, but be gentle.

Good post OBS

Pete really likes certain traits with the players he picks. OL with 34" plus arms, CB's with 32" plus arms, WR's running in the 4.4's are the norm. There have been a few later round exceptions like Joey Hunt (arms), Kenny Lawler (40 time) and Justin Senior (not athletic at all). The Tre Brown pick really broke the mold as he was a mid round pick with short arms. I really want to mock Stingley to the Hawks but those 30 5/8" arms give me pause.

Rob Staton over at SDB created TEF (trench explosion formula) scoring for O lineman. It just a mathematical formula involving vertical and broad jumps and bench press. A score of 3.0 or higher is considered explosive. It's worth a read.

[RiverDog]

Rob Staton over at SDB created TEF (trench explosion formula) scoring for O lineman. It just a mathematical formula involving vertical and broad jumps and bench press. A score of 3.0 or higher is considered explosive. It's worth a read.

Thanks for the tip. There's a lot of information on that blog. Here's a link to make finding it a little simpler:

http://seahawksdraftblog.com/author/rob

[govandals]

Yeah, Rob Staton churns out an amazing amount of content. He certainly has his followers, and yet many who dislike him. The comments section over there can be very entertaining.

[TriCitySam]

OL prospects are by far the hardest for even the pros scouts to analyze. Charles Cross is evaluated by many to be the best pass blocking tackle in the draft (PFF has him #1 and #5 overall) and is plug and play, consistently considered a top 10 pick - Rob Staton isn't one of them - but has no NFL experience, just a fan based blog. PFF does, but they may be wrong as well. But I assume they do know more than we. One GM: "I could see 7 tackles and edge players in the top 10". For the Seahawks, even if you want to be a run oriented team, you have to pass and to do that your LT must be a strong pass blocker. For that reason, I can see Cross being a fit - depending on how they evaluate him (and they're not good at OL either - although have done better since Cable left).

[NorthHawk]

The problem with Cross is he comes from an Air Raid Offense and has limited experience run blocking.
With lesser QB play, our run game will have added importance so he’s quite a gamble to select early.
So will probably take him and try him at Guard before not signing him to a second contract.
That’s how we roll!!

[NorthHawk]

The more Mock drafts I've seen and read or heard the explanations, the more I think Neal could fall to us at #9.
I don't think it's probable, but I now think it's possible. Along with Jerry Jones talking earlier that they might move up to the top 8 to get a WR, who knows what might happen.

This draft looks pretty solid from the late 1st round to the mid 4th and there may still be some real good players available in the 5th and 6th.
JS will have to work hard to avoid taking some good players that can contribute to continue his streak of bad misses and overall lousy drafting.
But I have full confidence he can do it.

[RiverDog]

The more Mock drafts I've seen and read or heard the explanations, the more I think Neal could fall to us at #9.
I don't think it's probable, but I now think it's possible. Along with Jerry Jones talking earlier that they might move up to the top 8 to get a WR, who knows what might happen.

I'd put those odds at about 10-1. If Neal dropped to us, I'd be elated, but it's not going to happen.

This draft looks pretty solid from the late 1st round to the mid 4th and there may still be some real good players available in the 5th and 6th.

JS will have to work hard to avoid taking some good players that can contribute to continue his streak of bad misses and overall lousy drafting.
But I have full confidence he can do it.

You need some sort of sarcasm symbol to put at the end of your last paragraph. The truth hurts.

I'm hoping that along with this admission of Pete's that he needs to broaden his thinking that him and John have done some soul searching and realized that they don't have to prove how clever and smart they are by making unconventional selections that no one else considered.

[Hawktawk]

We will find out how bad they are in September . I’m with TCS I see some guys really paying off . Like a great pick in Penney that got hurt . A whole bunch of young defenders . Some mouths will be closed until the crow is served .

[TriCitySam]

The problem with Cross is he comes from an Air Raid Offense and has limited experience run blocking.
With lesser QB play, our run game will have added importance so he’s quite a gamble to select early.
So will probably take him and try him at Guard before not signing him to a second contract.
That’s how we roll!!

Well, almost every evaluator of any importance has him in the top 3 as a LT. I hope Neal falls, but have no issues with Cross because regardless of where we are today, in the longer term we have to pass and protecting the blind side is #1 for a LT and Cross could be a 10-year one. Actually, I'd be thrilled with Cross at #9 and Lucas (to RT) at #41. As seen below, Cross can drive in the running game as well.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1516147098130939904

[Hawktawk]

I read a mock that had Matt Corrall in the top 10. As always it seems they are creeping up the board even though it’s a bad class .but again last year was too. Last time Seattle drafted a starting QB it worked out pretty well . I’ll trust JS and PC one more time .

[TriCitySam]

I read a mock that had Matt Corrall in the top 10. As always it seems they are creeping up the board even though it’s a bad class .but again last year was too. Last time Seattle drafted a starting QB it worked out pretty well . I’ll trust JS and PC one more time .

Wow, that's amazing.....I saw Rob Rang compared Pickett to Dave Krieg, and I love Dave, but that doesn't speak highly of this QB class.

[RiverDog]

Wow, that's amazing.....I saw Rob Rang compared Pickett to Dave Krieg, and I love Dave, but that doesn't speak highly of this QB class.

10-4 on Krieg. I had undoubtedly the most dramatic love/hate relationship with Krieg as I ever had with a football player. You're right, getting compared to Krieg isn't exactly a compliment except as it applies to his personal traits. I saw him fumble once when there wasn't another player within 10 yards of him.

[Hawktawk]

Kreig put up lots of numbers and started for 3 or 4 teams in an 18 year career or whatever. Held the Seahawks single season TD record for 3 decades plus , team wins record till 2010. He fumbled a lot . He got hit a lot but it didn’t explain all of them . But like Knox said when asked if he thought Krieg could win it all “ if he has enough players around him yes”
I agree in hindsight .

Kreig is one of my favorite Hawks . Mudbone . One of our better deep ball throwers too. Flores would have had a lot more success hanging on to him . He played quite a few more years , KC , Detroit and Az come to mind . I remember listening to Hawks game on the car radio and it was AZ and Krieg hung something like 400 yards and 4 TDs on us on a bad AZ team in his late 30s . I’d take a bit more sure handed Krieg in a New York minute .

[RiverDog]

Kreig put up lots of numbers and started for 3 or 4 teams in an 18 year career or whatever. Held the Seahawks single season TD record for 3 decades plus , team wins record till 2010. He fumbled a lot . He got hit a lot but it didn’t explain all of them . But like Knox said when asked if he thought Krieg could win it all “ if he has enough players around him yes”
I agree in hindsight .

Kreig is one of my favorite Hawks . Mudbone . One of our better deep ball throwers too. Flores would have had a lot more success hanging on to him . He played quite a few more years , KC , Detroit and Az come to mind . I remember listening to Hawks game on the car radio and it was AZ and Krieg hung something like 400 yards and 4 TDs on us on a bad AZ team in his late 30s . I’d take a bit more sure handed Krieg in a New York minute .

Krieg was cursed with pixie hands, which probably explained his propensity for fumbles. When he retired, he was the NFL's all time career leader in fumbles and still ranks 3rd. And the pure numbers aren't the worst of it. There were so many that came at the worst possible moment.

But like you, I really liked him.

[Hawktawk]

I met him in the Crossing tavern in my home town Coulee City in 1989. He had a bunch of his linemen and they were doing a guided Walleye trip hosted by Big Wally’s . That was owned by my late friend Gordon Steinmetz .

But I walk in here’s Dave Krieg and some mountain men . I talked to him for a few minutes , shook his hand and got an autograph I still have . Very humble and cool . I’ll tell you one other thing . He might have had small hands by NFL standards but the guy had Popeyes forearms , overall a much bigger athletic man than he looked like on TV. I’m not a small or weak man and I wouldn’t have squared up with him . Surprised me . As for fumbles my guess is he had to be pretty high in hits pressures and sacks as well. Worth pointing out they didn’t protect quarterbacks or receivers in those days either .
I thought he was damn good . Gritty . Mudbone says it well.

[RiverDog]

I met him in the Crossing tavern in my home town Coulee City in 1989. He had a bunch of his linemen and they were doing a guided Walleye trip hosted by Big Wally’s . That was owned by my late friend Gordon Steinmetz .

But I walk in here’s Dave Krieg and some mountain men . I talked to him for a few minutes , shook his hand and got an autograph I still have . Very humble and cool . I’ll tell you one other thing . He might have had small hands by NFL standards but the guy had Popeyes forearms , overall a much bigger athletic man than he looked like on TV. I’m not a small or weak man and I wouldn’t have squared up with him . Surprised me . As for fumbles my guess is he had to be pretty high in hits pressures and sacks as well. Worth pointing out they didn’t protect quarterbacks or receivers in those days either .
I thought he was damn good . Gritty . Mudbone says it well.

Cool story!

[NorthHawk]

Well, almost every evaluator of any importance has him in the top 3 as a LT. I hope Neal falls, but have no issues with Cross because regardless of where we are today, in the longer term we have to pass and protecting the blind side is #1 for a LT and Cross could be a 10-year one. Actually, I'd be thrilled with Cross at #9 and Lucas (to RT) at #41. As seen below, Cross can drive in the running game as well.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1516147098130939904

The problems I have with Cross are that he comes from an Air Raid Offense and from what I can gather there aren't any OT's that have been successful in the NFL from that type of system.
He also lunges quite a bit and has limited run blocking experience. Add to it he didn't have that good of a Sr Bowl and had some games where he was abused by good pass rushers it makes
me wonder if he isn't the 2nd coming of Germain Ifedi.
Cross may very well be the exception to the rule coming from that Offensive system and he may be good enough to develop into a very good OT, but do you take that chance at #9 when
you could have a player with as good or better upside and a higher floor albeit at a different position? If he was there at #40, he would be a good bet, but he will certainly go earlier than
that.
So for me, it's not that I wouldn't draft Cross but rather I wouldn't draft him at #9. JS probably will if he's there, but just look at our history of drafting OL...

[TriCitySam]

Kreig put up lots of numbers and started for 3 or 4 teams in an 18 year career or whatever. Held the Seahawks single season TD record for 3 decades plus , team wins record till 2010. He fumbled a lot . He got hit a lot but it didn’t explain all of them . But like Knox said when asked if he thought Krieg could win it all “ if he has enough players around him yes”
I agree in hindsight .

Kreig is one of my favorite Hawks . Mudbone . One of our better deep ball throwers too. Flores would have had a lot more success hanging on to him . He played quite a few more years , KC , Detroit and Az come to mind . I remember listening to Hawks game on the car radio and it was AZ and Krieg hung something like 400 yards and 4 TDs on us on a bad AZ team in his late 30s . I’d take a bit more sure handed Krieg in a New York minute .

I really loved Dave's effort and competitive attitude. I can't tell you how many times I saw him drop back and just get buried - but he always jumped up, smiled, clapped his hands and ran back to the huddle. While at the same time Elway and McMahon laid on the ground, they let everyone see their pain, Dave just shrugged it off. Met him before a game as he was going into the Kingdome, not much bigger than me, most would not t he was think he was a NFL QB to look at him in street clothes. Had a really bad bout with COVID I understand.

Career passer rating not so good, but it was a different era. At #44 all time (81.5), is above Elway, Esiason, Moon, Fouts, Tarkenton, Unitas and others. Slightly behind Hasselbeck (in a much more pass friendly offense). Maybe that says something about the value of the passer rating as well as the era.

If you haven't seen this, there's a VIDEO about 1/2 way down that's fun:
https://www.seahawks.com/news/seahawks- ... dave-krieg

[Hawktawk]

I still remember the first time Krieg came in the game . Zorn had managed a win vs the Raiders the previous week with an awful performance and had been struggling . I was in the commons at northwest Bible college in Kirkland watching the game vs the Steelers . Zorn was awful and the team didn’t score in the first half . In the second half Krieg started and threw 3 touchdown passes in the second half very nearly winning the game . Knox stepped to the podium and was asked if he was considering a quarterback change . “ I made it at halftime “ I loved the man’s quotes

[NorthHawk]

It's close enough to where I felt that it would be best to start a thread for all draft related discussions. First, the basics of which most of you already know but is worth a review.

Location: Las Vegas, NV. Dates: April 28-30th. Times: Thursday 4/28: 5pm PDT (Round 1); Friday 4/29: 4pm PDT (Rounds 2-3); Saturday 4/30: 9am PDT (Rounds 4-7).

Thanks to the Russell Wilson trade, the Hawks currently have the #9 overall pick in the first round, the first time since 2010 and Pete's first draft that we've had a selection in the top 10. Here are our 8 total picks by round with the overall selection:

Round 1: #9 (from the Broncos)
Round 2: #40 (from the Broncos), #41
Round 3: #72
Round 4: #109 (from the Jets)
Round 5: #152 (from the Broncos), #153
Round 6: None
Round 7: #229

Here's a link that has the full draft order for all 32 teams:

https://www.nfl.com/news/2022-nfl-draft ... ven-rounds

Getting back to the original post, I had a look at our history of 1st and 2nd round picks starting in 2014.
The last couple of years might turn out to be OK, but we've had some real bad ones and there are some good players, too.
Here's a list of players we chose:

2014
Paul Richardson 45th overall
Justin Britt 64th

2015
Frank Clark 63rd
Tyler Lockett 69th

2016
Germain Ifedi 31st
Jarran Reed 49th

2017
Malik McDowell 35th
Ethan Pocic 58th

2018
Rashaad Penny 27th
Rasheem Green 79th

2019
LJ Collier 29th
Marquise Blair 47th
DK Metcalf 64th

2020
Jordyn Brooks 27th
Darrell Taylor 48th
(We also got Damien Lewis at 69 in the 3rd)

2021
D'Wayne Eskridge 56th

So if we look at the drafts it shows a lot of trading out of the original slot (which doesn't have to be a bad thing) and a willingness to trade back up for a player that has fallen.
And the 2020 draft might be the best overall Seahawks draft of the previous 8 where we traded back up into the 2nd for Taylor.
The largest problem with trading down is bypassing top talent at positions of need which we've seen a number of times and I worry we will do the same again this year with
so much talent in the late 2nd and 3rd rounds. It's also interesting to note how few of the players got 2nd contracts here or were traded/cut before their 2nd contract was
completed.

[tarlhawk]

Excellent research and commentary on our teams drafting efforts. A "good draft" in this NFL lottery of opportunity has been on avg 3-4 selections that make the following years 53 man roster and "survive better yet" to fulfill their rookie contract. An average of 1-2 all pros from high round (1rst/2nd round selections) rookies is a feather in a GM's cap. Severe injuries take a heavy toll on most draft classes and level out league wide as an accepted result of NFL play.

Draft "experts" bear no burden of financial responsibility in NFL structure...therefor I respect JS to take the best team fit based on whatever pool of scouting/coaching inputs he receives in addition to his own "contacts/personal involvement". Phone calls worked during the draft and post draft interviews of our draft selections seldom reveal a selected player who didn't have some form of team contact prior to his selection.

As for expectations...this draft's selection positions really only compare to 2010. Okung and Earl Thomas were not "unknowns" nor risked by trading down. As long as 2-3 "JS targeted by interest" selections survive to our #9 position I expect us to pick in our slot...with our trade down/trade up draft capital becoming our two hi-value 2nd rd picks for draft maneuverability.

The key is having a willing trading partner for draft accumulation...if available.

[TriCitySam]

As for expectations...this draft's selection positions really only compare to 2010. Okung and Earl Thomas were not "unknowns" nor risked by trading down. As long as 2-3 "JS targeted by interest" selections survive to our #9 position I expect us to pick in our slot...with our trade down/trade up draft capital becoming our two hi-value 2nd rd picks for draft maneuverability.

The key is having a willing trading partner for draft accumulation...if available.

Spot on, while folks know JS to draft the unexpected, there was no mystery in the '10 draft. Okung and Earl - both top 15 guys, so I wouldn't expect a surprise at #9. But with many teams saying the top end is weak and the middle strong, I can easily see moving down from #9 - if as you say they have a partner.

Two things I believe:
1) with our draft capital they will find at least 3 good players in this draft
2) there will be those on this board, and elsewhere, who think they know better.

I heard Bill Polian say there was about a .575 win rate in the first round...and that's players who become productive, not All-Pros. Over the past 25 years only 18% of 1st round draft picks become All-Pro players (that excludes QB's who have a 5% hit rate). EVERYBODY misses.

[tarlhawk]

Posted this under "Trade Metcalf" but this thread is the better place for my post:

Interesting post on the Seahawks official team website identifying our team as having the best NFL draft value selections from 2012 -2021...THE BEST!

I have felt this but seldom exclaim it boldly with wanting to keep the banter away from the confrontational aspects. ESPN has us as the top value drafter a full 10 PTS above the KC Chiefs who came in 2nd...post was under "Monday Round-up" and uses a stat-junkie type formula to derive an actual value over expected value for where draft selection occurred. Interesting tidbit for those naysayers bemoaning John Schneider/Pete Carroll draft corroborations. GO Hawks!

[RiverDog]

Posted this under "Trade Metcalf" but this thread is the better place for my post:

Interesting post on the Seahawks official team website identifying our team as having the best NFL draft value selections from 2012 -2021...THE BEST!

I have felt this but seldom exclaim it boldly with wanting to keep the banter away from the confrontational aspects. ESPN has us as the top value drafter a full 10 PTS above the KC Chiefs who came in 2nd...post was under "Monday Round-up" and uses a stat-junkie type formula to derive an actual value over expected value for where draft selection occurred. Interesting tidbit for those naysayers bemoaning John Schneider/Pete Carroll draft corroborations. GO Hawks!

And I posted this response:

Did that post factor in the Harvin, Graham, and Adams trades that depleted our draft capital? Also, if we are to accept the premise that the Hawks have had the best draft value selections, why hasn't it produced better results on the field? Why have we won just two wild card playoff games in the past 7 seasons?

[c_hawkbob]

Now who's cherry picking stats? Why restrict your question to the last 7 years when the post you're responding to is about the last ten? Because a couple SB trips don't fit your narrative eh?

[govandals]

Yup, talk about cherry picking:

2012-2021 drafts we are number one.
2013-2021 drafts we are mid twenties.

So, in the last 10 years PCJS are the best drafters in the NFL
In the last 9 years PCJS are bottom third,

[NorthHawk]

Yah, 2012 was an insanely good draft - actually 2010 - 2012 was an exceptional streak of talent acquisition.
After that things fell off a cliff.

[RiverDog]

Now who's cherry picking stats? Why restrict your question to the last 7 years when the post you're responding to is about the last ten? Because a couple SB trips don't fit your narrative eh?

Yup, talk about cherry picking:

2012-2021 drafts we are number one.
2013-2021 drafts we are mid twenties.

So, in the last 10 years PCJS are the best drafters in the NFL
In the last 9 years PCJS are bottom third,

Nice retort, GV!

My narrative is that for the past 7 years, we have fielded disappointing, under achieving teams not close in greatness of those in the 3 years prior. We've regressed into a mediocre, .500ish team, so the answer to your question is yes. If you want to call that cherry picking, then so be it.

[NorthHawk]

From 2013 to 2018 we drafted 58 players.
Of those, 9 were offered 2nd contracts.

2013
Luke Willson

2014
Justin Britt

2015
Tyler Lockett

2016
Jarran Reed

2017
Chris Carson
Ethan Pocic

2018
Rashaad Penny
Will Dissly
Michael Dickson

Jarran Reed was cut in his 5th year instead of traded and Michael Dickson is a punter.

If you look at the players, it doesn't look like a star studded group that remained or was drafted.
I think other teams must have done better than us.

[RiverDog]

Yah, 2012 was an insanely good draft - actually 2010 - 2012 was an exceptional streak of talent acquisition.
After that things fell off a cliff.

That's a fact, Jack. And for you cherry picking aficionados, for the 3 seasons from 2010-2012, our draft picks included the following players and their overall selection:

Russell Okung (#6), Earl Thomas (#14), Kam Chancellor (#133), KJ Wright (#99), Richard Sherman (#154), Bobby Wagner (#47), and Russell Wilson (#75). 6 of those 7 players were Pro Bowlers within the first 3 years that they were drafted, the exception being KJ.

The next 9 seasons, from 2013-21, we have selected just 4 Pro Bowlers: Tyler Lockett (#69), Frank Clark (#63), Michael Dickson (#149), and DK Metcalf (64). And if we really wanted to get picky, we should scratch Dickson as he's a specialist, making it just 3 Pro Bowl position players, and Clark didn't make it to the Pro Bowl until after he had been traded to Kansas City, dropping down to just two that performed to Pro Bowl standards as a position player for the Hawks. None of the 7 Pro Bowl players drafted in the first three years are tagged with those qualifiers.

Obviously, the jury is still out on some of those later selections (Brooks, Lewis, and Taylor for example), but nevertheless, the difference is so dramatic that one or two current players subsequently making a Pro Bowl isn't going to make much of a difference.

You can make some excuses, such as our first draft we had two selections in the top 15 (Okung and Thomas) and that in subsequent drafts, we traded away a number of our top picks or traded down to accumulate more, lower round picks. But the inescapable fact is that for whatever reason, our drafting has lagged in recent years compared to what it was in the first three seasons, at least when measured by Pro Bowl appearances.

[Hawktawk]

Lots of injuries . An overlooked huge injury was PRich in the divisional vs Carolina in 2014 . He and Russ were developing quite a connection and I think he was hurt catching a long pass. But that is why Ricardo Lockette was on the field at receiver . Didn’t end well . Penney has proven he has top level ability , clearly a first round talent . Guy had never been injured in his life . But he’s had a 6.1 ypc average in the league anytime he gets 10 or more carries. Argument over. Injuries don’t count at all in evaluating talent . Blair looked great till injured . The young corner Brown looks amazing but got hurt .How is the Malik McDowell the teams fault ?

As for free agents and trades lynch was good . Bennett and Avril . Harvin was a huge part of winning a Lombardi . Worth the hassle 100%. Graham was a very good player here even though Russ was never a feed the one receiver guy so kind of wasted . But pretty sure he set a team record here . I don’t blame them for trying to get Russ a red zone target .

Adams on paper is the worst trade I remember based more on capital surrendered and again injury which you can’t fault the FO but it makes the deal look far worse . I don’t remember the complaints when he had 9.5 sacks a year ago . But bottom line we have him . He’s paid for and he’s a dynamic player , violent hitter and had improved his coverage before hurt . I think Hurtt is gonna figure out how to use him . We could go on but what’s the point . Statistically we had a few of the best drafts in history and now we’ve been down a while and I think the FO is tuned in and ready to knock it out of the park .

[NorthHawk]

Bennett, Lynch, and Avril were added during the great draft years.
We really haven't signed anyone in FA since (that I can think of) that can match any of those players and lately we've just been overpaying for career backups or
situational players.

[RiverDog]

Bennett, Lynch, and Avril were added during the great draft years.
We really haven't signed anyone in FA since (that I can think of) that can match any of those players and lately we've just been overpaying for career backups or
situational players.

Don't forget Zach Miller. Plus there were other, lesser players that contributed, like Breuno Whatshisname, the mad Russian, Paul McQuistran, a decent OL that was a better guard than James Carpenter, fullback Michael Robinson, draftee WR's Doug Baldwin and Jermaine Kearse. All of those players could have started for 3/4 of the teams in the league.

During those years, teams would be bottom fishing for players after we made our roster cuts. Not anymore.

[RiverDog]

Lots of injuries . An overlooked huge injury was PRich in the divisional vs Carolina in 2014 . He and Russ were developing quite a connection and I think he was hurt catching a long pass. But that is why Ricardo Lockette was on the field at receiver . Didn’t end well . Penney has proven he has top level ability , clearly a first round talent . Guy had never been injured in his life . But he’s had a 6.1 ypc average in the league anytime he gets 10 or more carries. Argument over. Injuries don’t count at all in evaluating talent . Blair looked great till injured . The young corner Brown looks amazing but got hurt .How is the Malik McDowell the teams fault ?

As for free agents and trades lynch was good . Bennett and Avril . Harvin was a huge part of winning a Lombardi . Worth the hassle 100%. Graham was a very good player here even though Russ was never a feed the one receiver guy so kind of wasted . But pretty sure he set a team record here . I don’t blame them for trying to get Russ a red zone target .

Adams on paper is the worst trade I remember based more on capital surrendered and again injury which you can’t fault the FO but it makes the deal look far worse . I don’t remember the complaints when he had 9.5 sacks a year ago . But bottom line we have him . He’s paid for and he’s a dynamic player , violent hitter and had improved his coverage before hurt . I think Hurtt is gonna figure out how to use him . We could go on but what’s the point . Statistically we had a few of the best drafts in history and now we’ve been down a while and I think the FO is tuned in and ready to knock it out of the park .

You can make as many excuses that you want, ie injuries, off field incidents, and so on, and it still isn't going to be enough to overcome such a huge disparity in draftees that made the Pro Bowl in first 2 drafts vs. the following 7. Seven Pro Bowlers in 3 years vs. two in 9 years is pretty damn hard for you to spin.

The Lynch/Bennett/Averil acquisitions, along with Zach Miller and Chris Clemons, all occurred within those first 3 seasons. Later acquisitions were far less inspiring on the whole.

[Hawktawk]

But River the early drafts were on a par with the 90s cowboys or something and by god what have they won since all those guys retired ? As I’ve said all these super bowl winning coaches other than BB never get back . Lots of great coaches like Knox never get there.
I’m going to be thankful for Pete and John getting us to 2 Super Bowls and a Lombardi , extra games 9 of 12 seasons , a couple HOF guys at least . For all you saying it was all Russ OK remember who drafted him , chose him over a guy making 20 million and stood by him through some shaky performances early . He could have been a jet , a bengal, a lion . We did something special . None of these legends have left on a good note . Sherman, ET, Bennett, wags Is taking the high road but it’s hard to watch as a fan . But it happens . We are due for a home run draft and we already have lots of talent . Optimistic .

[RiverDog]

But River the early drafts were on a par with the 90s cowboys or something and by god what have they won since all those guys retired ? As I’ve said all these super bowl winning coaches other than BB never get back . Lots of great coaches like Knox never get there.

Which is EXACTLY what North Hawk, ASF, myself, and others have been arguing: Pete and John's shelf life has expired. Why would you want to hang onto Pete when even you say that it's likely that they're never going to get back to the SB? Or are you now content with one and done playoff appearances?

You used to agree with us on this subject, now all of a sudden, you're quoting Pete like a preacher quotes from the Bible. The last few games of an abortion of a season doesn't explain your reversal.

[tarlhawk]

You used to agree with us on this subject, now all of a sudden, you're quoting Pete like a preacher quotes from the Bible. The last few games of an abortion of a season doesn't explain your reversal.

These are personal opinions and you won't see me cross pen swords with HawkTalk on politics...his objectivity should not be in question even if his emotions get the better of him at times. To me it reflects his willingness to back his own beliefs even when the forum he is using doesn't readily agree or accept them. Am I being supportive because I find myself in agreement with some of his stronger points?...*shakes head yes*. You guys have to admit...you're not going to browbeat him.

[Aseahawkfan]

These are personal opinions and you won't see me cross pen swords with HawkTalk on politics...his objectivity should not be in question even if his emotions get the better of him at times. To me it reflects his willingness to back his own beliefs even when the forum he is using doesn't readily agree or accept them. Am I being supportive because I find myself in agreement with some of his stronger points?...*shakes head yes*. You guys have to admit...you're not going to browbeat him.

If that's how you and Hawktawk want to build yourselves up and stay positive about this whole situation, have at it.

I'm not that emotional a person. I see things how they are and will be. I don't care what the emotional folks up or down have to say on it. I've been watching the NFL long enough to know what's going on in Seattle and it's a rebuild. We've gotten rid of all our veteran players and don't have a competitive team right now. Our strongest position group right now is WR. We seem to have a solid replacement at MLB for Wagner. We have question marks almost everywhere else and the defensive line and CBs are both exceptionally bad position groups which are going to continue to make us defensively weak if we don't get some high performers on those units.

We have a new DC and an OC that needs to develop a QB who can run their offense at an elite level.

Same head coach and GM thinking they can make magic happen twice when no one in NFL history has really done so.

We're basically in territory that usually leads to a lot of bad seasons until the HC and GM are fired and replaced, then you try to find the guy with the fire and plan to build it all back up again.

If we didn't have serious question marks with ownership, then I'd be more relaxed about the whole process. But I think this team will be sold soon and I only hope it is to someone as close to like Paul Allen as we can find in Seattle.

That's the real view of our situation absent much emotion. If Pete and John make magic happen a second time with the same team in a new decade, it will be something I've never seen anyone do in my 30 plus years of watching football. I'd love some of the other old timers who have been watching this game a long time to provide examples of head coaches who have traded the franchise QB away and rebuilt a team into a Super Bowl contender after it fell completely apart. That would at least provide some data points for this occurring rather my current memory which is Pete and John are on a path that has never, ever turned out well in the history of the NFL.

[RiverDog]

You used to agree with us on this subject, now all of a sudden, you're quoting Pete like a preacher quotes from the Bible. The last few games of an abortion of a season doesn't explain your reversal.

These are personal opinions and you won't see me cross pen swords with HawkTalk on politics...his objectivity should not be in question even if his emotions get the better of him at times. To me it reflects his willingness to back his own beliefs even when the forum he is using doesn't readily agree or accept them. Am I being supportive because I find myself in agreement with some of his stronger points?...*shakes head yes*. You guys have to admit...you're not going to browbeat him.

Hawktalk and I go back a long time. We actually consider ourselves really good friends, like an online family, as do most of the regulars in this forum, many of us having been at each other like this for 15 or so years. It's what makes this place my first stop in the morning and last stop before I turn in for the night, and yes, as much as we might try, we're not going to brow beat HT. He's as stubborn as a mule. Like you, I admire his passion and his ability to stand his ground.

But that doesn't mean that I'm going to quit trying.