HawkShack.com

I saw this on my news feed this morning. It has to do with our discussion on immigration and jobs/unemployment. I am presenting it without comment, at least for now:

TRI-CITIES, Wash. — The local economy is growing with new restaurants, shops and neighborhoods popping up all over the Tri-Cities, but construction companies say they are having trouble finding employees to build.

It's happening to George Booth of Booth & Sons Construction. He said he's struggling to maintain a workforce.
“The amount of jobs that are out there there aren't enough people to fill those,” said Booth. He said it's a problem across the entire construction industry.

“I think young people don't want to enter the profession because it's hard and it's dirty and people can look down upon it because it's physical labor,” said Booth. As the Tri-Cities continues to grow, there's a need for laborers to build new homes and commercial spaces, but with the pressure for kids to go to college and get a four-year degree, builders say they can't find employees.

“This is a good job. It's a good field to be in,” Booth said. “It's fun. It's challenging. Every day you're solving a different problem.” The Tri-Tech Skills Center is an alternative to a college degree. “Moms and dads and kids are figuring it out that ‘I can leave high school get some training at a community college (or) get an apprenticeship and make six figures,” said Paul Randall, director of Tri-Tech.

Tri-Tech has the enrollment to prove kids are interested. “We've had kids graduate on Saturday and went to work on Monday,” said Randall Their construction program is at capacity with a wait list. But Booth said it's still not enough to make up for their need of employees. “We're all told in public education that the way to success is to go to college. This kind of work can provide you with direct access to a well-paying job without carrying a whole bunch of debt.” Booth said.

Construction jobs typically start well above minimum wage and it's work that the community needs to grow.
Booth & Sons Construction is hiring. Booth says you don't need much training to apply just a willingness to learn and passion for the career.

To apply send an email to georgeboothiv@boothandsons.com

https://keprtv.com/news/local/construct ... ZqmK0pIVp0

Do I believe this? I don't know. What wage are they looking to pay? Are they union jobs? Are they not attracting people because they want to keep wages low? These are questions I would like to see.

Construction is a notoriously competitive business with a real drive to push wages as low as possible due to the bidding process they use to obtain jobs. A new shortage for workers is not a good reason to suddenly jack up your immigration, especially if those jobs go away during a downturn and suddenly your entire system is overloaded with unemployed workers brought in during a temporary upturn.

Maybe construction could do something like an H1B visa program where they sponsor immigrants to come and work with specific skills, but permanent status should be avoided until long-term economic growth spanning years is locked in.

We'll see how hot the economy stays. Personally, I believe we're headed for another hammer economic drop due to the low interest rates like 2001 and 2008. You can't keep growing on leverage building bubbles and expect good outcomes. These economic bubbles are just a bad way to grow the economy and I would argue a major reason for the wealth transfer we're seeing since companies and the wealthy can better respond to an economic downturn purchasing all the cheap assets caused by the leverage bubbles popping while working class folks lose their homes, retirement savings, and the like while still having to pay off large amounts of debt.

From what I understand leverage is at an all time high across the board. Credit cards, home loans, margin trading, business loans, government debt, and the like just rising and rising and rising due to low interest rates and cheap money. It doesn't look good to me at all. I'm afraid to put my money heavily into the stock market because when it pops (and it will), it's going to be bad. Just be glad you managed your credit well Riverdog and aren't on the credit treadmill too many people get on.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Do I believe this? I don't know. What wage are they looking to pay? Are they union jobs? Are they not attracting people because they want to keep wages low? These are questions I would like to see.

Construction is a notoriously competitive business with a real drive to push wages as low as possible due to the bidding process they use to obtain jobs. A new shortage for workers is not a good reason to suddenly jack up your immigration, especially if those jobs go away during a downturn and suddenly your entire system is overloaded with unemployed workers brought in during a temporary upturn.

Maybe construction could do something like an H1B visa program where they sponsor immigrants to come and work with specific skills, but permanent status should be avoided until long-term economic growth spanning years is locked in.

We'll see how hot the economy stays. Personally, I believe we're headed for another hammer economic drop due to the low interest rates like 2001 and 2008. You can't keep growing on leverage building bubbles and expect good outcomes. These economic bubbles are just a bad way to grow the economy and I would argue a major reason for the wealth transfer we're seeing since companies and the wealthy can better respond to an economic downturn purchasing all the cheap assets caused by the leverage bubbles popping while working class folks lose their homes, retirement savings, and the like while still having to pay off large amounts of debt.

From what I understand leverage is at an all time high across the board. Credit cards, home loans, margin trading, business loans, government debt, and the like just rising and rising and rising due to low interest rates and cheap money. It doesn't look good to me at all. I'm afraid to put my money heavily into the stock market because when it pops (and it will), it's going to be bad. Just be glad you managed your credit well Riverdog and aren't on the credit treadmill too many people get on.

It's believable. It's local, first hand information and not something fed to me by the evil MSM, which is why I posted it. My neighbor across the street from me is a licensed electrician about to retire, and he tells me that there is a very large concern, both locally and nationwide, of an impending shortage of electricians with the average age in the mid to upper 50's. I also am aware that there's a shortage of truck drivers:

America needs more truck drivers. The trucking industry is facing a growing shortage of drivers that is pushing some retailers to delay nonessential shipments or pay high prices to get their goods delivered on time.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/57675232 ... r-shortage

I could post more examples from other industries, but I don't think it's necessary to make my point.

If these shortages aren't addressed, costs will go up as employers will have to pay higher wages or start turning away work. Prices will go up, inflation goes up, the economy quits expanding, and with more workers retiring than are entering the work force, SS and Medicare's income continues to trend downward, putting more pressure on pols to raise taxes or cut benefits.

There's not many explanations for this labor shortage. One explanation could be that potential workers do exist but they are not looking for employment or are unemployable. Perhaps they can't pass a drug test or a background check. The other possible explanation is that we simply do not have enough native born citizens to replace those that leave the job market. When you look at the demographics, the declining birth rate and the average age of those that are actively employed, I think it becomes pretty obvious that the latter is the correct explanation.

These are not minimum wage, unskilled hamburger flipping jobs. It's skilled work that does not require a ton of training or an expensive college education. These jobs are perfect for people that aren't afraid of physical work, aren't spoiled by 21st century American excesses and conveniences, and are motivated to assimilate into our society.

Yes, I'm glad I'm not on the credit treadmill. Except for one short period of time after my divorce from my first wife, I've always paid off my entire balance on my credit card each month. My wife and I paid off the loan on our current home in less than half the term, and we paid off two zero interest loans on new cars before we retired. When we hit fixed income, we had virtually zero debt, which has allowed me to be able to afford some very expensive health care premiums of over $1K per month.

My neighbor across the street from me is a licensed electrician about to retire, and he tells me that there is a very large concern, both locally and nationwide, of an impending shortage of electricians with the average age in the mid to upper 50's.

Yup. My dad's an electrician that's been trying to retire for 5 years, but companies that he worked with keep backing dumptrucks of money up to his door begging him to run different projects for them around the country.

He's more of a foreman and designer than one who actually pulls the cable (etc), but the point's the same.

My neighbor across the street from me is a licensed electrician about to retire, and he tells me that there is a very large concern, both locally and nationwide, of an impending shortage of electricians with the average age in the mid to upper 50's.

burrrton wrote:Yup. My dad's an electrician that's been trying to retire for 5 years, but companies that he worked with keep backing dumptrucks of money up to his door begging him to run different projects for them around the country.

He's more of a foreman and designer than one who actually pulls the cable (etc), but the point's the same.

My wife was a nurse at a nursing home and had a similar situation when she went on disability. They begged her not to quit, offered her reduced hours, light duty work, etc. It's a great situation for the Millennials as they don't have to worry about getting laid off in the near future. Even if there is a major recession, it wouldn't put a big enough dent in the labor pool for young workers to have to worry about where their next paycheck is coming from.

That's one of the reasons why I get tired of hearing about this student debt issue. Kids today have huge employment opportunities available to them, much different from when I graduated from college in the late 70's that were defined by what Jimmy Carter called the misery index (unemployment rate + inflation rate).

That's one of the reasons why I get tired of hearing about this student debt issue.

Agreed, and if you're talking about the 'erase all student debt' thing, it's like the "reparations" issue- pure pandering, as ridiculous as modern politics gets.

But are they any good at those types of jobs?
I am a disaster at the trades, to the point I would make Homer Simpson look like a master carpenter/plumber/electrician, etc.
But, I am a very logical person, so when I started out in IT, it came naturally and 40 years ago it was an exciting and interesting
field and I was in the right place at the right time. So I emphasize with people that can't swing hammers as I'm one of them.
That's not to say there aren't those that just don't want to, rather that some just don't have the innate skill to do a proper job for
an employer.

That's one of the reasons why I get tired of hearing about this student debt issue.

burrrton wrote:Agreed, and if you're talking about the 'erase all student debt' thing, it's like the "reparations" issue- pure pandering, as ridiculous as modern politics gets.

That's obviously part of it, but the student loan debate didn't start with the current group of moonbats running for POTUS.

The problem I have with the student loan debate is that with all the options students have nowadays and with the job market like it is, they can make a choice not to go spending tens of thousands of dollars on a college education, look for a less expensive trade that requires half the training/education than going to a liberal arts college, and still end up with a well paying job. No one's forcing them to assume that kind of debt.

.

NorthHawk wrote:But are they any good at those types of jobs? I am a disaster at the trades, to the point I would make Homer Simpson look like a master carpenter/plumber/electrician, etc.

But, I am a very logical person, so when I started out in IT, it came naturally and 40 years ago it was an exciting and interesting field and I was in the right place at the right time. So I emphasize with people that can't swing hammers as I'm one of them. That's not to say there aren't those that just don't want to, rather that some just don't have the innate skill to do a proper job for an employer.

I think one of the reasons why the younger generation is shying away from construction jobs is that they're soft. They don't want to work outdoors in the hot summer and cold winters, see physical work as below their dignity, and have very little exposure to it in school.

When I was in junior high, shop was a required subject for boys. In high school, they had auto mechanics, welding, and woodworking classes.

It's part of the pussification of America.

RiverDog wrote:The problem I have with the student loan debate is that with all the options students have nowadays and with the job market like it is, they can make a choice not to go spending tens of thousands of dollars on a college education, look for a less expensive trade that requires half the training/education than going to a liberal arts college, and still end up with a well paying job. No one's forcing them to assume that kind of debt.

Agreed.

RiverDog wrote:It's believable. It's local, first hand information and not something fed to me by the evil MSM, which is why I posted it. My neighbor across the street from me is a licensed electrician about to retire, and he tells me that there is a very large concern, both locally and nationwide, of an impending shortage of electricians with the average age in the mid to upper 50's. I also am aware that there's a shortage of truck drivers:

America needs more truck drivers. The trucking industry is facing a growing shortage of drivers that is pushing some retailers to delay nonessential shipments or pay high prices to get their goods delivered on time.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/57675232 ... r-shortage

I could post more examples from other industries, but I don't think it's necessary to make my point.

If these shortages aren't addressed, costs will go up as employers will have to pay higher wages or start turning away work. Prices will go up, inflation goes up, the economy quits expanding, and with more workers retiring than are entering the work force, SS and Medicare's income continues to trend downward, putting more pressure on pols to raise taxes or cut benefits.

There's not many explanations for this labor shortage. One explanation could be that potential workers do exist but they are not looking for employment or are unemployable. Perhaps they can't pass a drug test or a background check. The other possible explanation is that we simply do not have enough native born citizens to replace those that leave the job market. When you look at the demographics, the declining birth rate and the average age of those that are actively employed, I think it becomes pretty obvious that the latter is the correct explanation.

These are not minimum wage, unskilled hamburger flipping jobs. It's skilled work that does not require a ton of training or an expensive college education. These jobs are perfect for people that aren't afraid of physical work, aren't spoiled by 21st century American excesses and conveniences, and are motivated to assimilate into our society.

Yes, I'm glad I'm not on the credit treadmill. Except for one short period of time after my divorce from my first wife, I've always paid off my entire balance on my credit card each month. My wife and I paid off the loan on our current home in less than half the term, and we paid off two zero interest loans on new cars before we retired. When we hit fixed income, we had virtually zero debt, which has allowed me to be able to afford some very expensive health care premiums of over $1K per month.

So what you're saying is you don't want wages to rise? You do understand that labor markets operate with the same demand-supply economics as every other market. If we don't have a labor shortage, then real wages never rise and the standard of living stays relatively the same. A major part of the reason people have grown angry about immigration is the impact it has on the labor market. If you keep adding people wages lower and the standard of living is stagnant. You want labor shortages. That is what drives up real wages in an industry.

Using immigration to relieve labor shortages is very beneficial to companies, not so much to working Americans unless we can sustain this level of economic growth. Immigration is the equivalent of outsourcing when it comes to globalizing the workforce and making Americans compete not only against domestic workers, but also foreign workers for jobs.

I'm trying to make sure you grasp part of the problem with immigration, outsourcing, and agreements like the TPP and NAFTA. A global labor pool is great for our companies, but understand this globalization is a big reason for a reduction in our standard of living and the lack of growth of real wages because very labor shortage is eliminated by foreign workers or by moving supply costs out of the nation. A shortage of supply increases the price of everything including labor. Though this cost may be passed on to the consumer, if growth is strong enough you instead get a boost to real wages and standard of living.

RiverDog wrote:That's obviously part of it, but the student loan debate didn't start with the current group of moonbats running for POTUS.

The problem I have with the student loan debate is that with all the options students have nowadays and with the job market like it is, they can make a choice not to go spending tens of thousands of dollars on a college education, look for a less expensive trade that requires half the training/education than going to a liberal arts college, and still end up with a well paying job. No one's forcing them to assume that kind of debt.

.

I encourage young folks to get into the trades all the time. The new blue collar workers are the network techs in the computer industry. You get a few certifications and some experience, you get a 100 k a year job making sure computer networks stay up and running. They need electricians and HVAC techs as well. Those jobs will likely never become useless because the world needs electricity and mechanical environmental manipulation.

On a side note on immigration, I have to admit to you Trump is a racist. His tweet about the Congresswomen was straight crazy old uncle racist. I've heard the sentiment many times and I understand it. But at the same time sensible people know all those women had nothing to do with the state of their nations. They can't control the insanity or corruption in the nations of their ancestry. Trump telling them they should go back and fix those nations when they've come to America, worked hard to achieve success in this nation, and are just trying to help people they feel are in need is BS racism. Not sure when he crossed over that badly, but those tweets aren't working a crowd. They're just straight up crazy old uncle racist. The guy can't leave office soon enough. What a jackass.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I encourage young folks to get into the trades all the time. The new blue collar workers are the network techs in the computer industry. You get a few certifications and some experience, you get a 100 k a year job making sure computer networks stay up and running. They need electricians and HVAC techs as well. Those jobs will likely never become useless because the world needs electricity and mechanical environmental manipulation.

.

Yep. Yesterday's screw driver twisting electrician is today's IT tech. The basics are the same.

Aseahawkfan wrote:On a side note on immigration, I have to admit to you Trump is a racist. His tweet about the Congresswomen was straight crazy old uncle racist. I've heard the sentiment many times and I understand it. But at the same time sensible people know all those women had nothing to do with the state of their nations. They can't control the insanity or corruption in the nations of their ancestry. Trump telling them they should go back and fix those nations when they've come to America, worked hard to achieve success in this nation, and are just trying to help people they feel are in need is BS racism. Not sure when he crossed over that badly, but those tweets aren't working a crowd. They're just straight up crazy old uncle racist. The guy can't leave office soon enough. What a jackass.

Wow, way to man up, ASF!

The ironic thing about Trump's tweet is that he told the 4 women Congressmen to "go back to where they came from" when in fact only 1 of the 4 was foreign born. It's no different than telling blacks to go back to Africa and fix those countries. Trump made a similar remark during his campaign about a Hispanic judge that was born in Indiana. He saw a Spanish name and made an immediate assumption as to the man's loyalty. Trump's tweet says a lot about what motivates his immigration policies.

It will be interesting to see how Idahawkman spins those remarks.

It will be interesting to see how Idahawkman spins those remarks.

There is no defending them (please note that, ID). You could maybe take issue with the literal definition of "RACIST!", but there's no getting around that it was at the very least a clearly bigoted (xenophobic? ethnocentric?) thing to say.

Somebody needs to take his fcking phone away from him- the Dems were in full meltdown heading into 2020, and he couldn't resist dropping himself into it and helping them out.

It will be interesting to see how Idahawkman spins those remarks.

burrrton wrote:There is no defending them (please note that, ID). You could maybe take issue with the literal definition of "RACIST!", but there's no getting around that it was at the very least a clearly bigoted (xenophobic? ethnocentric?) thing to say.

"Xenophobic" and "ethnocentric" are a more PC way of saying a person is a racist. But Trump's racism goes beyond just a fear of people from another country or culture. It's specific to "shithole" countries that are occupied by people that don't look like him or speak like him. But I'm glad that you're beginning to see the linkage.

burrrton wrote:Somebody needs to take his fcking phone away from him- the Dems were in full meltdown heading into 2020, and he couldn't resist dropping himself into it and helping them out.

If that ain't the truth. Pelosi and the 4 Congresswomen were in open warfare before Trump opened his cake hole. Now he's given them a ready-made campaign add for the 2020 elections and a reminder to them as to just who the enemy really is.

It sure does fit with Trump's style of "winging it", or to be more accurate, talking out of his arse, doesn't it? He didn't even realize that 3 of those 4 he was referring to were born in the USA, so it reinforces my contention that he's either one of two things: Lazy and/or stupid. What sitting POTUS didn't know the most obvious details of their major antagonists?

Sometimes I wonder if Trump really doesn't want to be president and is just doing things to see how far he can push this crazy and still garner support. Then again he may just be a 70 plus year old man losing his mind. The guy wasn't like this when he was younger or at least he hid it very well. His public persona was nothing like this. I don't know when he crossed over into crazy uncle racist territory, but he's debased himself and his legacy. It's unfortunate he decided to turn his name into mud and become this crazy character named Trump no one really knew of for most of his life.

NorthHawk wrote:But are they any good at those types of jobs? I am a disaster at the trades, to the point I would make Homer Simpson look like a master carpenter/plumber/electrician, etc.

But, I am a very logical person, so when I started out in IT, it came naturally and 40 years ago it was an exciting and interesting field and I was in the right place at the right time. So I emphasize with people that can't swing hammers as I'm one of them. That's not to say there aren't those that just don't want to, rather that some just don't have the innate skill to do a proper job for an employer.

RiverDog wrote:
I think one of the reasons why the younger generation is shying away from construction jobs is that they're soft. They don't want to work outdoors in the hot summer and cold winters, see physical work as below their dignity, and have very little exposure to it in school.

When I was in junior high, shop was a required subject for boys. In high school, they had auto mechanics, welding, and woodworking classes.

It's part of the pussification of America.

That's part of it (the pussification). I think a bigger part of it is the ease of which college debt is acquired with future promises of no hard work. I do believe the wages for starting in the construction field is artificially low also. H1B visa wouldn't work because that would keep the starting wages low while demanding large amounts of actual work. Plus the visa holders wouldn't actually leave after they were done here.

Last, welfare is too easy to get. If I can go to college and party for 5 or 6 years, rack up huge amounts of debt and then go on welfare programs and live in my parents basements, why would I want to go to work and actually exert physical energy?

Aseahawkfan wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Trump really doesn't want to be president and is just doing things to see how far he can push this crazy and still garner support. Then again he may just be a 70 plus year old man losing his mind. The guy wasn't like this when he was younger or at least he hid it very well. His public persona was nothing like this. I don't know when he crossed over into crazy uncle racist territory, but he's debased himself and his legacy. It's unfortunate he decided to turn his name into mud and become this crazy character named Trump no one really knew of for most of his life.

I know that you disagreed with me, but Trump has shown his racist tendencies for quite awhile. But he didn't leave much doubt this time, did he? There's no way that anyone can defend remarks like what he told those women.

And I see that the cat's got Idahawk's tongue. Must be waiting to see how Limbaugh, Colture, and Hannity say so he can use one of their lines.

"Xenophobic" and "ethnocentric" are a more PC way of saying a person is a racist.

Only in the minds of people insufficiently educated in the meanings of those words and who throw "RACIST!" around sloppily at every perceived slight.

We agree on the broad strokes, though.

Now he's given them a ready-made campaign add for the 2020 elections and a reminder to them as to just who the enemy really is.

Ayup. Get ready for a 24/7 loop of it playing on every major channel for the next year and a half.

"Xenophobic" and "ethnocentric" are a more PC way of saying a person is a racist.

burrrton wrote:Only in the minds of people insufficiently educated in the meanings of those words. Just because everybody and their dog throws the term "RACIST" around at every overcooked steak and askance look doesn't mean every behavior is actually racist.

xen·o·pho·bic
[zenəˈfōbik, ˌzēnəˈfōbik]

ADJECTIVE
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

eth·no·cen·tric
[ˌeTHnōˈsentrik]

ADJECTIVE
evaluating other peoples and cultures according to the standards of one's own culture.

Now compare those with the definition of racist:

rac·ist
[ˈrāsəst]

ADJECTIVE
prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

Depending on the context, you could make an argument about the latter term not necessarily implying racism, but it's pretty clear that the former is a watered down way of saying racist or bigoted.

*sigh*

ADJECTIVE
prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

All racists are prejudiced, but not everyone who's prejudiced is racist (this is a bit of hair-splitting on my part, but I like precision in language).

Again, it isn't worth arguing about- we agree on the broad strokes.

burrrton wrote:*sigh*

ADJECTIVE
prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

All racists are prejudiced, but not everyone who's prejudiced is racist (this is a bit of hair-splitting on my part, but I like precision in language).

Again, it isn't worth arguing about- we agree on the broad strokes.

Hair splitting is right, particularly when you are using the technique to define subjective terms. The differences are minute.

But I agree, it's not worth arguing over. At least you're condemning Trump's remarks as (fill in the blank). Is it fair to say that both you and ASF have migrated ever so slightly towards my appraisal of Trump's intolerance of others based on their race, creed, religion, national origin, ethnicity, et al?

The differences are minute.

Like I said, I like precision in language. If there's a more accurate term for something, I prefer it rather than diluting more serious charges by overusing them.

Is it fair to say that both you and ASF have migrated ever so slightly towards my appraisal of Trump's intolerance of others based on their race, creed, religion, national origin, ethnicity, et al?

Oh, a little. I've always conceded he's made racist(ish?) remarks- I just don't take those as proof positive of him being KKK-lite, overriding everything else in his life.

I'll point out once again that I think his acceptance or intolerance of someone is based more on whether they praise or criticize him than on their race, creed, religion, national origin, or ethnicity, and this doesn't really break from that operating paradigm.

However, even if my paradigm is true, that doesn't make his statement(s) any less racist/whatever.

RiverDog wrote:I know that you disagreed with me, but Trump has shown his racist tendencies for quite awhile. But he didn't leave much doubt this time, did he? There's no way that anyone can defend remarks like what he told those women.

And I see that the cat's got Idahawk's tongue. Must be waiting to see how Limbaugh, Colture, and Hannity say so he can use one of their lines.

Mainly since Obama became president. And behind closed doors if you believe the books on him. His public persona was very open to diversity for many, many years. It's since he became political attacking Obama that he started to go down that racist wormhole that he seems to have stayed in.

RiverDog wrote:I know that you disagreed with me, but Trump has shown his racist tendencies for quite awhile. But he didn't leave much doubt this time, did he? There's no way that anyone can defend remarks like what he told those women.

And I see that the cat's got Idahawk's tongue. Must be waiting to see how Limbaugh, Colture, and Hannity say so he can use one of their lines.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Mainly since Obama became president. And behind closed doors if you believe the books on him. His public persona was very open to diversity for many, many years. It's since he became political attacking Obama that he started to go down that racist wormhole that he seems to have stayed in.

In most people, isn't it just the opposite? That is, if a person is going to undergo a change, it's been my experience that they're usually a racist in their younger years and as they grow older and wiser, learn to be more tolerant.

RiverDog wrote:In most people, isn't it just the opposite? That is, if a person is going to undergo a change, it's been my experience that they're usually a racist in their younger years and as they grow older and wiser, learn to be more tolerant.

I don't think that is standard at all. It very much varies by person. I noticed a lot of people that were more tolerant when younger, but become curmudgeonly and intolerant the older they get because they don't like change. Known a lot of people that became more conservative on some issues and less so on others. It's why you don't see me using too many cliché sayings. I haven't found them to be true. People are all very different and go in surprising directions as they age that are often unexpected. Not sure about you, but some of my buddies have become very different people as they aged. Some traits worse, some better. Very few more tolerant.

People get very used to the values they were raised on. When they see those values under attack, they react in very strange ways. Older people being wiser isn't always true either. Sometimes experience is valuable, sometimes age just makes you seem crazy as you hold on too tight to the old world.

Suffice it to say, there is no clear cut way to view things. People may vote more "conservative" than their parents, but conservative is relative to the generation. A conservative from the 80s is very different from a conservative from the 60s or 50s. Just like a progressive from the 80s is different from a modern progressive.

It's very dependent. It seems Trump is one of those older folks not liking the changes he's seeing and seems to be buying into the leftist minorities are the problem mentality of some older folks.

As to the original subject of this thread there is a labor shortage because lots of primarily white folks and young people DON'T WANT TO WORK. They are LAZY. Teen participation in the workforce is at near record lows. The workforce participation rate in america in general is around 63%. One in 4 families NOBODY WORKS.

Yes the economy is good but the record low unemployment rates Trump beats his chest about are possible only due to the low participation rate with millions having dropped out and letting the taxpayers subsidize them. If the participation rate was in the mid 64% rate as at the end of GWs second term there would be 9 MILLION more people unemployed and an actual unemployment rate nearer 8%

Having employed people for over 30 years as a golf course super and now the last 16 months working in manufacturing the quality of employee has gotten worse every year with lazy unmotivated ungrateful intellectually bankrupt idiots permeating the labor force with a few exceptions. And as an aside the hispanics I employed in the golf industry and observe in my new job are generally the more motivated harder workers. I'm sure lots of those people down in the cages on the border would leap at the chance to work the jobs it seems like pulling teeth to get these americans to get up and go to reliably. It was northern triangle illegals who built Trump national etc as part of his pipeline of illegals helping him line his pockets. It was just that back then he didn't have a fanatical rabid political base to throw red meat to..

As for Trump being a racist YA THINK??????????????????? Yeah I see some of the smarter than me posters here trying to parse it, come up with fancy words to soften it up. It's no different than every time a politician lies and his supporters and even many of his detractors say he "misspoke". He LIED!!!
Trump is a RACIST. He's a remorseless LIAR. Hes credibly accused of being a RAPIST. Hes a COLLUDING OBSTRUCTOR OF JUSTICE. Hes a DEMAGOGUE, a wanna be strongman.

He's the worst president in our history by far. As George Will wrote in a recent column "this bell cannot be unrung" The damage this man has done to the constitutional separation of powers, the very office of the president and the norms that should define it is a lot more permanent and important than your 401 K or an unemployment rate fueled by lazy people who have dropped out or an anemic 3% growth rate .

America is not being made great in any sense of the word, quite the contrary.....

Hawktawk wrote:As to the original subject of this thread there is a labor shortage because lots of primarily white folks and young people DON'T WANT TO WORK. They are LAZY. Teen participation in the workforce is at near record lows. The workforce participation rate in america in general is around 63%. One in 4 families NOBODY WORKS.

Yes the economy is good but the record low unemployment rates Trump beats his chest about are possible only due to the low participation rate with millions having dropped out and letting the taxpayers subsidize them. If the participation rate was in the mid 64% rate as at the end of GWs second term there would be 9 MILLION more people unemployed and an actual unemployment rate nearer 8%

The main driver of the labor participation rate is demographics. The baby boomer generation is retiring and those that are retired are living longer. If you were to factor out the retirees, I suspect that you'd see a much different participation rate.

Hawktawk wrote:Having employed people for over 30 years as a golf course super and now the last 16 months working in manufacturing the quality of employee has gotten worse every year with lazy unmotivated ungrateful intellectually bankrupt idiots permeating the labor force with a few exceptions. And as an aside the hispanics I employed in the golf industry and observe in my new job are generally the more motivated harder workers. I'm sure lots of those people down in the cages on the border would leap at the chance to work the jobs it seems like pulling teeth to get these americans to get up and go to reliably. It was northern triangle illegals who built Trump national etc as part of his pipeline of illegals helping himEve line his pockets. It was just that back then he didn't have a fanatical rabid political base to throw red meat to.

Agreed. I've said a number of times that in general, the newly arrived immigrants are much more motivated and easier to manage than their native born counterparts. Even if there's a communication barrier, I'd much rather work around that issue than have to put up with a spoiled rotten American millennial.

Hawktawk wrote:As for Trump being a racist YA THINK??????????????????? Yeah I see some of the smarter than me posters here trying to parse it, come up with fancy words to soften it up. It's no different than every time a politician lies and his supporters and even many of his detractors say he "misspoke". He LIED!!!
Trump is a RACIST. He's a remorseless LIAR. Hes credibly accused of being a RAPIST. Hes a COLLUDING OBSTRUCTOR OF JUSTICE. Hes a DEMAGOGUE, a wanna be strongman.

He's the worst president in our history by far. As George Will wrote in a recent column "this bell cannot be unrung" The damage this man has done to the constitutional separation of powers, the very office of the president and the norms that should define it is a lot more permanent and important than your 401 K or an unemployment rate fueled by lazy people who have dropped out or an anemic 3% growth rate .

I don't think Trump's done any damage to our constitution. I agree that he doesn't respect it and is always looking for a way to sidestep it, but future POTUS's will continue to honor it as they have for the past 150+ years. DJT is an anomaly.

The main driver of the labor participation rate is demographics. The baby boomer generation is retiring and those that are retired are living longer. If you were to factor out the retirees, I suspect that you'd see a much different participation rate.

I've read a number of analyses- it's part of it, but it's not the main driver. It went up recently, even.

Agreed. I've said a number of times that in general, the newly arrived immigrants are much more motivated and easier to manage than their native born counterparts. Even if there's a communication barrier, I'd much rather work around that issue than have to put up with a spoiled rotten American millennial.

Truth.

Hes credibly accused of being a RAPIST.

You said worse of Brett Kavanaugh. Your opinion on the matter is laughable.

RiverDog wrote:The main driver of the labor participation rate is demographics. The baby boomer generation is retiring and those that are retired are living longer. If you were to factor out the retirees, I suspect that you'd see a much different participation rate.

And the labor participation rate hasn't fully recovered from the The Great Recession.

Agreed. I've said a number of times that in general, the newly arrived immigrants are much more motivated and easier to manage than their native born counterparts. Even if there's a communication barrier, I'd much rather work around that issue than have to put up with a spoiled rotten American millennial.

How you going to blame the millennial for the bad job his or her parents did raising them? My father taught me a work ethic. He did it knowing that it would benefit me. How many parents from the previous generation forced their kids to work? Females are notorious for babying their kids. I have been sickened by the number of men that let their wives run their children why they play video games and screw around like married man boys that think if they work they've done their duty as a father. That's just BS. Fathers are supposed to teach certain things to their children and given millenials and the divorce rate, I would say we're seeing a lot of the failure of the previous generation to be good fathers.

I don't think Trump's done any damage to our constitution. I agree that he doesn't respect it and is always looking for a way to sidestep it, but future POTUS's will continue to honor it as they have for the past 150+ years. DJT is an anomaly.

'Agreed. Trump will hopefully be gone soon. I'm so tired of this guy. He really thinks he's the sole source of superior thought in the nation and everything he does is perfect and shouldn't be criticized even tweets some straight up racist trash. I just wish the Democrats weren't so pathetic at this point. Their platform is awful. I think they might lose to Trump because of an awful, unfocused platform that is unappealing to swing voters. The left wing press is pushing Ocasio-Cortez to the forefront and she is about as unappealing to swing voters as they come. I can see why Fox News is pushing her because she makes the Democratic Party look like socialist loons. The Dems need to get control of Ocasio-Cortez and her socialist BS movement or she will hurt the Dems against Trump. I won't even call him Republican as he's not part of a party. He runs The Trump Party. They aren't Democrat or Republican, they're interested in believing and supporting the trash that come out of Trump's mouth.

Trump will hopefully be gone soon. I'm so tired of this guy. He really thinks he's the sole source of superior thought in the nation and everything he does is perfect and shouldn't be criticized even tweets some straight up racist trash.

Totally agree with this. You just described a classic narcissist. The amazing thing is when his supporters can't or won't see it.

I just wish the Democrats weren't so pathetic at this point. Their platform is awful. I think they might lose to Trump because of an awful, unfocused platform that is unappealing to swing voters. The left wing press is pushing Ocasio-Cortez to the forefront and she is about as unappealing to swing voters as they come.

I partially agree with you here, too. The mistake last time was for the democrats to think that 'never Trump' is a platform. As HRC can attest to, that's not nearly enough. Because of the electoral system we have, the only hope for the democrats is to field a candidate that can connect with the middle class and rural voters in the middle of the country. Obama and Clinton did that. In my opinion, Harris and Biden are the frontrunners who need to separate themselves from the pack and develop that connection. Of the 2, I think they can both stand toe to toe with Trump's nastiness, but I also think think Trump would have more to worry about with Harris.

Aseahawkfan wrote:How you going to blame the millennial for the bad job his or her parents did raising them? My father taught me a work ethic. He did it knowing that it would benefit me. How many parents from the previous generation forced their kids to work? Females are notorious for babying their kids. I have been sickened by the number of men that let their wives run their children why they play video games and screw around like married man boys that think if they work they've done their duty as a father. That's just BS. Fathers are supposed to teach certain things to their children and given millenials and the divorce rate, I would say we're seeing a lot of the failure of the previous generation to be good fathers.

You're making excuses for them. Sure, it helps to have had good parenting, but it's not a prerequisite, and in the end, each one of us is responsible for our own destiny. We've both seen success stories where kids rise from situations where they didn't have any parents at all, bounced around from one foster family to another, as well as kids that had every advantage in the world yet pissed away their opportunity (as Obi would say, tore up their lottery ticket) by getting into crime, drugs, ect. At the same time, I'm not disagreeing with you regarding parents in our generations.

I don't think Trump's done any damage to our constitution. I agree that he doesn't respect it and is always looking for a way to sidestep it, but future POTUS's will continue to honor it as they have for the past 150+ years. DJT is an anomaly.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Agreed. Trump will hopefully be gone soon. I'm so tired of this guy. He really thinks he's the sole source of superior thought in the nation and everything he does is perfect and shouldn't be criticized even tweets some straight up racist trash. I just wish the Democrats weren't so pathetic at this point. Their platform is awful. I think they might lose to Trump because of an awful, unfocused platform that is unappealing to swing voters. The left wing press is pushing Ocasio-Cortez to the forefront and she is about as unappealing to swing voters as they come. I can see why Fox News is pushing her because she makes the Democratic Party look like socialist loons. The Dems need to get control of Ocasio-Cortez and her socialist BS movement or she will hurt the Dems against Trump. I won't even call him Republican as he's not part of a party. He runs The Trump Party. They aren't Democrat or Republican, they're interested in believing and supporting the trash that come out of Trump's mouth.

You're preaching to the choir. Much more than his politics, I can't stand DJT the person. But except for their personal respectability in relation to that of Trump's, the Dems politics are unacceptable to me, ie free health care, free college, reparations, the green new deal, yet no viable plan to finance any of it outside of tax the rich or make Wall Street pay for it, and their immigration policy has holes, too, like de-criminalizing illegal border crossings and abolishing ICE. If anyone else besides Biden gets the nomination, I'm probably voting for the Libertarian like I did in 2016.

Trump will hopefully be gone soon. I'm so tired of this guy. He really thinks he's the sole source of superior thought in the nation and everything he does is perfect and shouldn't be criticized even tweets some straight up racist trash.

I-5 wrote:Totally agree with this. You just described a classic narcissist. The amazing thing is when his supporters can't or won't see it.

This.

I-5 wrote:The mistake last time was for the democrats to think that 'never Trump' is a platform. As HRC can attest to, that's not nearly enough. Because of the electoral system we have, the only hope for the democrats is to field a candidate that can connect with the middle class and rural voters in the middle of the country. Obama and Clinton did that. In my opinion, Harris and Biden are the frontrunners who need to separate themselves from the pack and develop that connection. Of the 2, I think they can both stand toe to toe with Trump's nastiness, but I also think think Trump would have more to worry about with Harris.

Obama and Clinton did well in the rust belt, ie MI, PA, WI, OH, more so than they did in rural middle of the country. Those are the states where HRC lost the election and the states that the Dem candidate has to do well in if they are to win in 2020.

As far as the electoral college goes, the R's have won the two recent elections where the electoral and popular vote disagreed, but that's a bit deceiving. In 1960, Kennedy won the electoral college by winning two states TX and IL by razor thin margins and only needed one of those to fall into his column, yet the popular vote extremely close, with JFK winning by just .2%. In 1976, Jimmy Carter won as basically a regional candidate, taking nearly the entire southeast and lost every state in two time zones west and the western half in the Midwest. He won the popular vote by just 1.8%, less than what HRC won it by in 2016. And in 2004, Bush 43 won the popular vote by a healthy 2.4% yet nearly lost the electoral college in Ohio.

But I do agree with you about the Dem's 2016 campaign strategy. All Hillary could do was rail about Trump. Doing so didn't win her a single vote that she wouldn't have gotten had she kept her yapper closed. Except for Trump, she had BY FAR the highest disapproval rating of any major party nominee since the 50's when they started running such polls. She was a lightning rod that attracted conservatives to the polls and caused them to overlook Trump's faults. She ran a horrible campaign.

I know this comment belongs on another thread, but totally agree that HRC ran a horrible campaign...has she ever run a good campaign looking all the way back to vs Obama? I don't know. We've seen Biden put his foot in his mouth a few times already. It's too bad, because Joe is a rust belt guy himself, but he's a bad quote generator. I'm seeing Harris and Warren gaining strength, but for me, it's Harris who seems to have captured lightning. She is tough and smart, and seems to be enjoying the process. My money is on Harris...for now.

I-5 wrote:I know this comment belongs on another thread, but totally agree that HRC ran a horrible campaign...has she ever run a good campaign looking all the way back to vs Obama? I don't know. We've seen Biden put his foot in his mouth a few times already. It's too bad, because Joe is a rust belt guy himself, but he's a bad quote generator. I'm seeing Harris and Warren gaining strength, but for me, it's Harris who seems to have captured lightning. She is tough and smart, and seems to be enjoying the process. My money is on Harris...for now.

Don't worry about going off on a tangent. It happens all the time.

HRC had every advantage in the book: She was running against the nominee with the highest negative rating in the 70 years they've been doing the poll. She outspent her opponent by 2:1. There are more registered Democrats than their are registered R's. She had more campaign experience, running in 2 national elections with her pseudo husband, a primary election on her own, and a Senate election. Trump, on the other hand, had never ran for public office at all.

I've followed Joe Biden for 3 decades. He's always had this problem of putting his foot in his mouth. But he does poll well against Trump, with a current RCP average of +8.5%, and as you noted, he is a virtual rust belter as he was often times referred to as PA's 3rd Senator. The rust belt is the key for the Dems.

Harris hasn't really said or done anything to separate herself from the field. I do think that she did better than the other candidates in the debates, but she's still extremely liberal, like Medicare for all and debt free college, positions which will hurt her in a match up against Trump, which is reflected in her sporting just a 2.0% edge in the aforementioned RCP average. IMO the Dems nominate Harris and they'll guarantee us 4 more years of the buffoon.

You might be right, Riv. Sounds like Biden is the best hope for the dems in your book, or are we leaving out someone else? Biden is certainly middle of the road enough in his policies, so I could see him doing it. I also see him picking a woman as a running mate if he wins.

I-5 wrote:You might be right, Riv. Sounds like Biden is the best hope for the dems in your book, or are we leaving out someone else? Biden is certainly middle of the road enough in his policies, so I could see him doing it. I also see him picking a woman as a running mate if he wins.

I haven't had a chance to fully flesh out all of the Dem candidate's various positions and I really don't intend to until we get to the nomination. I haven't heard very many of them NOT embrace Medicare for All, which for reasons discussed in other threads, would be a deal breaker for me. The only one besides Biden that hasn't reiterated that chant is Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, but she's way back in a crowded field.

Yes, it's a safe bet that Biden or any of the other male Dems will select a female running mate. Given the large number of females elected to Congress in the midterms, they almost have to. IMO the aforementioned Klobuchar would be a good choice for Biden's running mate should he win the nomination. She's close enough to Wisconsin and Michigan, two states that Trump won by narrow margins, that she could help pick off some voters and she's closer to Biden's core philosophy than any of the other female POTUS candidates. It's always a good strategy to pick a fellow POTUS candidate as a running mate as they can merge the two campaigns.

RiverDog wrote:You're making excuses for them. Sure, it helps to have had good parenting, but it's not a prerequisite, and in the end, each one of us is responsible for our own destiny. We've both seen success stories where kids rise from situations where they didn't have any parents at all, bounced around from one foster family to another, as well as kids that had every advantage in the world yet pissed away their opportunity (as Obi would say, tore up their lottery ticket) by getting into crime, drugs, ect. At the same time, I'm not disagreeing with you regarding parents in our generations.

We benefited from a generation of men that were extremely masculine with an extraordinary societal reinforced work ethic. What do these millennial have to look up to? Lazy, drug addict hippies? The Kardashians and their bfs? Politicians selling them on lazy socialism and fake gender equality that requires them to treat each other nicer than at any point in history? Raised by single mothers that don't have the capability to force some larger male son to go to work?

I feel fathering is as bad as it has ever been. I truly believe that poor male behavior has done more damage to society than can be adequately measured. The way society is currently dealing with gender issues and the push of females to be empowered by undermining the male is a major reason why we are producing a generation of confused males not sure what it even means to be male or what they need to be doing. We have created a very poor environment for males to develop and grow into the male figures that at one point had kept the societal work ethic strong. I for one am glad I was not raised in the modern environment as a male.

When you grow up with the benefit of a generation of war-hardened men that lived through a depression as your role models, it's super hard to understand these young millennial do not have those role models to look to.

RiverDog wrote:You're making excuses for them. Sure, it helps to have had good parenting, but it's not a prerequisite, and in the end, each one of us is responsible for our own destiny. We've both seen success stories where kids rise from situations where they didn't have any parents at all, bounced around from one foster family to another, as well as kids that had every advantage in the world yet pissed away their opportunity (as Obi would say, tore up their lottery ticket) by getting into crime, drugs, ect. At the same time, I'm not disagreeing with you regarding parents in our generations.

Aseahawkfan wrote:We benefited from a generation of men that were extremely masculine with an extraordinary societal reinforced work ethic. What do these millennial have to look up to? Lazy, drug addict hippies? The Kardashians and their bfs? Politicians selling them on lazy socialism and fake gender equality that requires them to treat each other nicer than at any point in history? Raised by single mothers that don't have the capability to force some larger male son to go to work?

I feel fathering is as bad as it has ever been. I truly believe that poor male behavior has done more damage to society than can be adequately measured. The way society is currently dealing with gender issues and the push of females to be empowered by undermining the male is a major reason why we are producing a generation of confused males not sure what it even means to be male or what they need to be doing. We have created a very poor environment for males to develop and grow into the male figures that at one point had kept the societal work ethic strong. I for one am glad I was not raised in the modern environment as a male.

When you grow up with the benefit of a generation of war-hardened men that lived through a depression as your role models, it's super hard to understand these young millennial do not have those role models to look to.

All of that may be true, but it still does not excuse the individual from obligation to control their own destiny. We cannot as parents or as persons in positions of authority accept external or environmental conditions as a justification for an individual's failings.

RiverDog wrote:
I know that you disagreed with me, but Trump has shown his racist tendencies for quite awhile. But he didn't leave much doubt this time, did he? There's no way that anyone can defend remarks like what he told those women.

And I see that the cat's got Idahawk's tongue. Must be waiting to see how Limbaugh, Colture, and Hannity say so he can use one of their lines.

What exactly did Trump say that is racist? And no cat has ever got my tongue. I may be out of town or a bit busy but to jump to some stupid conclusion like you did is beyond logic.