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The trial of "El Chapo" has highlighted some of the reasons why I'm against Trump's version of a border wall with Mexico:

Traffickers and former gang members testifying at the trial of notorious cartel leader Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman have said the vast majority of drugs are smuggled onboard cars, trains, trailers and boats that cross the border at legal ports of entry.

As recently as Friday, Trump once again stated that a major reason a border wall needs to be built is to stop the flow of “drugs & so much other big trouble”.

But numerous witnesses in the trial have detailed the smuggling methods which have allowed Mexico’s Sinaloa Cartel, which El Chapo is accused of heading, to make billions of dollars over the last few decades. And none of them would be prevented by a wall.

Former Sinaloa cartel leader, Jesus Zambada Garcia, said in November that after a US government crackdown on smuggling tunnels under the border in the early 1990s, the group switched to using legal ports of entry. He described trucks with “double bottoms” and large cans of chilis containing a specially made, cylindrical brick of cocaine.

Garcia’s nephew, Vicente Zambada, described a much simpler method – simply driving it across the border. He said: “Mexican families were hired to drive cars with secret compartments across the border at Juarez, sometimes three or four times a day.”

Additionally, the cost is not $5B. Current projections are for it to cost $25B, and considering that it would be a large scale, government-run project, it would take at least a decade to construct and the cost almost assuredly skyrocket beyond that estimate.

Most of the wall would have to be built on private property. There are environmental concerns that would have to be addressed. Both those factors would guarantee that much of it would have to be litigated. As politically charged as the issue is, there would be never ending protests, almost assurdely some that would turn violent, boycotts of contractors that agree to build it. Given the cost and the amount of time to build it, funding will be continually cut off then restored as the political landscape changes.

All of the 9/11 terrorists came through legal ports of entry, not the southern border. Building a wall would do next to nothing to protect us from another terrorist attack on the scale of 9/11.

Illegal border crossings since 9/11 have seen a steady decline. Why is it all of a sudden a national crisis?

I'm all for increased border security, but Trump's wall is, simply put, not an efficient use of taxpayer funds.

I don't see the point of a wall. I can see spending money to improve electronic monitoring and some barrier at key areas, but some big Berlin wall type of thing just seems like a blight on the landscape. I don't see why we can't rely more on drones and electronic surveillance. Seems like that would be the smarter move in the modern day.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't see the point of a wall. I can see spending money to improve electronic monitoring and some barrier at key areas, but some big Berlin wall type of thing just seems like a blight on the landscape. I don't see why we can't rely more on drones and electronic surveillance. Seems like that would be the smarter move in the modern day.

Precisely! And I suspect that's why illegal border crossings has been going down, because they're already deploying those kinds of methods. A wall is medieval technology. You might as well dig a moat and fill it with crocodiles.

If the border area were covered by a triple canopy rain forest, then I could see that a physical barrier might make sense. And there may be some urban areas that are so concentrated with buildings and population density where a wall might be the best option. But not with hundreds of miles of barren desert that allows for clear, remote monitoring with cameras, lasers, etc. It would be a never ending, colossal waste of money.

Brainwashed ruling class MSM fed losers.

Both the Military and the police all agree that a wall is the solution for the southern border.

POS democrats don't want as wall because the illegals will come into the USA and vote democrat because democrats promise the most tax payer paid resources to these people. Thats the true reality that MSM don't tell you. Duh.

And a reminder for you unthinking dumb seals. I am for a compromise of citizenship for law abiding illegals here now for border security and a wall.

And just like that kerpoof. Numb nuts folds like a bad hand. I'm one who believes we need better border security including some enhancements to our barrier system but DJT had 2 years with full control of the congress to push for it and it suddenly became an emergency when he got hammered in the midterms????

Equally stupid was his semi senile lunatic ramblings about " Ill own the shutdown, proud to shut the government down, I wont blame you chuck". Democrats who had proposed in 2017 giving him 25 Billion for border security including enhancing the barrier system in exchange for protection for dreamers and were rebuffed would have been idiots to give this utter political gift away to this rambling delusional fool.
And in other news Roger Stone, his political confidant of FORTY years is indicted and arrested at 4 AM the same day. Bad day for Chump, real bad.

Polls show even his hard core base is crumbling as many could relate to blue collar people working without pay to allow him to have his temper tantrum. This may truly be the beginning of the end of the presidency. One can hope.

Hawktawk wrote:And just like that kerpoof. Numb nuts folds like a bad hand. I'm one who believes we need better border security including some enhancements to our barrier system but DJT had 2 years with full control of the congress to push for it and it suddenly became an emergency when he got hammered in the midterms????

Yea, he saw the R's starting to go off the reservation, so he decided to do the best he could to save face. It's exactly the same deal he could have had the night before the shutdown started, and was one of the worst political calculations he's made, which is what he gets for listening to Ann Colter and Rush Limbaugh rather than his own advisors.

Hawktawk wrote:Equally stupid was his semi senile lunatic ramblings about " Ill own the shutdown, proud to shut the government down, I wont blame you chuck". Democrats who had proposed in 2017 giving him 25 Billion for border security including enhancing the barrier system in exchange for protection for dreamers and were rebuffed would have been idiots to give this utter political gift away to this rambling delusional fool.

Yea, it's just like his "Mexico will pay for it" statement during his campaign. He says stuff like that so often that people have become numb to it. It's no longer news. Plus it was silly for him to offer up the Dreamers as a compromise. They're staying here per court order.

Hawktawk wrote:And in other news Roger Stone, his political confidant of FORTY years is indicted and arrested at 4 AM the same day. Bad day for Chump, real bad.

We'll see about Stone. Still no smoking gun if your goal is impeachment. But you're right, it is bad news.

Hawktawk wrote:Polls show even his hard core base is crumbling as many could relate to blue collar people working without pay to allow him to have his temper tantrum. This may truly be the beginning of the end of the presidency. One can hope.

He'll never dip below the Idahawk line, or about 30% of the voters that kiss the ground he walks on. The election is two years away, and voters have short memories. But 2019 is not going to be pretty if you're a Trump supporter. The recent government shutdown will look tame in comparison. The big question is will the Dems put forth someone that can appeal to the middle 10-15% or so that decide elections. So far I'm not impressed with the collection of clowns that have or are close to announcing.

Weakest presidential candidates I've ever seen to go along with a weakening nation that has reached a point where anyone thinks Rich Boy Trump is somehow the savior of the nation. How far we have fallen when this is the best we can produce for president.

Border seems like something far away in an economy this good. Main people freaking out over the border are the lemmings that hear about one crime from an immigrant and think the entire group is dangerous. Too many of them.

Immigration should be tied to economic health and shouldn't be used as a means to import socialism into America like the Dems are using it now. Immigrants vote primarily for the Democrats and the left. Democrats know it. It's why they're doing what they're doing. Nothing will destroy this country further faster than the conservatives push to alienate the growing power of the immigrant vote.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Weakest presidential candidates I've ever seen to go along with a weakening nation that has reached a point where anyone thinks Rich Boy Trump is somehow the savior of the nation. How far we have fallen when this is the best we can produce for president.

The only one I'm halfway impressed with is Bloomberg. But we'll see. It's still too early to get a feel for the field. Jimmy Carter came from out of nowhere to win the '76 election, perhaps there's someone like him lurking in the wings.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Border seems like something far away in an economy this good. Main people freaking out over the border are the lemmings that hear about one crime from an immigrant and think the entire group is dangerous. Too many of them.

Well put. The fact is that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than native born Americans. But too many people have never had any contact at all with immigrants, and you fear most what you know least.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Immigration should be tied to economic health and shouldn't be used as a means to import socialism into America like the Dems are using it now. Immigrants vote primarily for the Democrats and the left. Democrats know it. It's why they're doing what they're doing. Nothing will destroy this country further faster than the conservatives push to alienate the growing power of the immigrant vote.

Agreed, but I'll add that it should also be tied to infrastructure, like schools and hospitals. Immigration quotas should be variable depending on our ability to absorb and integrate them into our society. Trump wants to cut LEGAL immigration in half, and has not made his case for such a drastic reduction, which leads me to believe his motivations are racial in nature.

RiverDog wrote:Agreed, but I'll add that it should also be tied to infrastructure, like schools and hospitals. Immigration quotas should be variable depending on our ability to absorb and integrate them into our society. Trump wants to cut LEGAL immigration in half, and has not made his case for such a drastic reduction, which leads me to believe his motivations are racial in nature.

Of course they're racial in nature. What part of the base do you think he's playing to? He's playing to the base buying into the immigrants are bad on the whole, though it doesn't help that the states close to the southern border have experienced huge increases in crime related to immigration. Maybe legal immigrants don't commit crimes at the same level as Native born, but don't tell me that the southern border drug trade isn't a huge problem tied with immigration. Them Latin gangs are something else down there. My mother lives in El Paso. She's 3rd generation American and she's never seen it so bad. She can't even go across the border due to the drug cartels and gangs with associated problems. That part is real for the border states. If it filters deeper into America, it will be a real problem.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Of course they're racial in nature. What part of the base do you think he's playing to? He's playing to the base buying into the immigrants are bad on the whole, though it doesn't help that the states close to the southern border have experienced huge increases in crime related to immigration.

Agreed.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Maybe legal immigrants don't commit crimes at the same level as Native born, but don't tell me that the southern border drug trade isn't a huge problem tied with immigration. Them Latin gangs are something else down there. My mother lives in El Paso. She's 3rd generation American and she's never seen it so bad. She can't even go across the border due to the drug cartels and gangs with associated problems. That part is real for the border states. If it filters deeper into America, it will be a real problem.

It's tied to illegal immigration, but not nearly so much as those that come in the right way. Besides, his solution is completely inadequate and unnecessarily expensive. Most of the drugs come into this country through ports of entry, not through vast, open stretches of the southwest desert that are easy to monitor. Indeed, illegal border crossings have been on a steady decline for over 15 years, undoubtedly due in large part to advances in technology like drones and electronic monitoring. We don't need a $25B wall that will take years if not decades to construct.