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I read a very good article this morning regarding the thread title:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-all-cost

I'm 64 years old, retired, and happily married so I'm permanently on the sidelines of this 'game' I've played for over 50 years. But ever since the SCOTUS hearings when I saw how many people firmly believed in an accuser's story with no evidence other than testimony of events that occurred over 35 years ago, I thought to myself that if I were still 'in the game' that I'd be very reluctant to associate with female co workers in situations that might expose me to a false allegation. I'd rather face a discrimination lawsuit than I would sexual harassment.

Too bad that we don't have some female participants in this forum as I'd love to hear a woman's POV, but I'd be interested in you guy's remarks.

Not much to add, except that people shouldn't have laughed when it was pointed out this was the inevitable outcome when people can't dial down the outrage.

They lumped Al Franken in with Harvey Weinstein and called Brett Kavanaugh a rapist**, and are now aghast at the unintended consequences.

**And, not noticing the hypocrisy, at the same time ridiculed Mike Pence for choosing not to dine alone with women (or something like that).

burrrton wrote:Not much to add, except that people shouldn't have laughed when it was pointed out this was the inevitable outcome when people can't dial down the outrage.

They lumped Al Franken in with Harvey Weinstein and called Brett Kavanaugh a rapist**, and are now aghast at the unintended consequences.

**And, not noticing the hypocrisy, at the same time ridiculed Mike Pence for choosing not to dine alone with women (or something like that).

One of the things not mentioned in this article is that I have yet to see any of the women that have embraced the "#Metoo" movement call out the females that take advantage of their sexism to advance their profession. I had a co-worker, a very attractive woman in her early 30's, that following an 8 hour graveyard shift, would immediately head for the powder room prior to our morning debriefing meeting with management to put on her make-up and perfume while the rest of us sported our greasy uncombed hair, soiled clothes, and 5 o'clock shadows. And it worked. She had managers wrapped around her little finger and got a promotion even though she was an under performer. I feel that a discussion about that type of female behavior ought to be included in any discussions about political correctness amongst the sexes. If men shouldn't be making dumb blonde jokes or talk about their sexual conquests when women are present, then women shouldn't be acting like flirts and teases around men.

I'm also aware that there are a number of #Metoo followers that defended Bill Clinton, and when I contrasted it to their reactions to Judge Kavanaugh it became apparent that the movement was as much about politics as it was about treating women with respect. I wonder where they were in the late 90's.

The movement happened in the first place because it's a real thing. There are a whole lot of women and girls out there that have stories that are real, that severely effected their lives and that they've never told for fear of people's reactions and because they didn't want to become identified by an indecent that happened to them (I'd dare say many of our own wives, daughters and co-workers). Many (perhaps most) were/are strong enough get on with their lives and file the incident as a lesson learned. Unfortunately for some there was a real need to unburden themselves of that secret and the movement got instant momentum from so many women finally feeling free t say "yes, that's been my life too, maybe now we can all move on".

More unfortunately is the fact that the movement has also become a political tool and a social weapon. It became an automatic assumption that if a woman said "me too" and pointed a finger at an individual, the accused was obviously guilty. Thus this backlash ... Some of this backlash is justified, but a whole lot of it is the guilty saying "not me!"

I guess my point if I have one, is that every situation should be taken on it's own merits without the automatic assumptions that accompany either movement.

RiverDog wrote:I read a very good article this morning regarding the thread title:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-all-cost

I'm 64 years old, retired, and happily married so I'm permanently on the sidelines of this 'game' I've played for over 50 years. But ever since the SCOTUS hearings when I saw how many people firmly believed in an accuser's story with no evidence other than testimony of events that occurred over 35 years ago, I thought to myself that if I were still 'in the game' that I'd be very reluctant to associate with female co workers in situations that might expose me to a false allegation. I'd rather face a discrimination lawsuit than I would sexual harassment.

Too bad that we don't have some female participants in this forum as I'd love to hear a woman's POV, but I'd be interested in you guy's remarks.

Character is what you do when no one else is looking. Character cuts both ways though. It takes Character to treat not only women but other races, ages, religions, etc with the respect that they deserve. Character is also what makes people NOT to falsely accuse someone of something they didn't do. Those accusations can ruin lives. As you point out River, a sexual accusation against you would probably bring much more severe strife to your marriage (Home life) than a charge of racism.

To sit and claim that no man has ever lacked character in the presence of a woman would be naive at best and just ignorant to say the least. But to also say that every woman MUST be believed is just as naive and ignorant. Therefore we must, as a society, resort to the rule of law and evidence of facts. Unfortunately, saying that all lawyers are honorable is just as naive and ignorant.

When our justice system fails us, is corrupt or tainted, we all lose and therefore we all have to take measures to protect ourselves even at the expense of others. E.g. removing the door to an office so it can never be closed (I know people who have actually done this), not hiring qualified females so there is no opportunity for the allegations, etc.

I know a lot of people scoff at "Family Values", "Religion", "military service" etc. but these institutions are where our Beliefs and Values (character) ingrained in us as kids and young adults but too often these institutions have been replaced with video games, babysitters, daycare, and even our education system. And that is a tragedy.

My dad once told me that the fall of every great nation began with the internal moral decay and I believe it more today than I did way back in the 70's.

c_hawkbob wrote:The movement happened in the first place because it's a real thing. There are a whole lot of women and girls out there that have stories that are real, that severely effected their lives and that they've never told for fear of people's reactions and because they didn't want to become identified by an indecent that happened to them (I'd dare say many of our own wives, daughters and co-workers). Many (perhaps most) were/are strong enough get on with their lives and file the incident as a lesson learned. Unfortunately for some there was a real need to unburden themselves of that secret and the movement got instant momentum from so many women finally feeling free t say "yes, that's been my life too, maybe now we can all move on".

More unfortunately is the fact that the movement has also become a political tool and a social weapon. It became an automatic assumption that if a woman said "me too" and pointed a finger at an individual, the accused was obviously guilty. Thus this backlash ... Some of this backlash is justified, but a whole lot of it is the guilty saying "not me!"

I guess my point if I have one, is that every situation should be taken on it's own merits without the automatic assumptions that accompany either movement.

I'm not sure what "other movement" you are referring to as this backlash isn't organized, but I get your point.

You're exactly right. The #Metoo movement started as a reaction to the Harvey Weinstein scandal, and other proven scumbags like Bill Cosby and Larry Nasser. It was helpful in encouraging women to report genuine harassment incidents, both in the past as those that might happen in the future. And I have no doubt that there are those that are guilty and are using this backlash to obscure their past/present actions as you are suggesting.

But it can and is being over done, as was demonstrated in the SCOTUS hearings. I'm concerned that we're getting away from the principle of innocent until proven guilty, which is causing some very good men to react by protecting their self interests by segregating what are undoubtedly some very good, deserving women that haven't an intention in the world of filing a false harrassment charge from the social aspect of the business world.

I have 2 daughters that work at a national bank entity (they work in very differnt segments though). I fear that their career growth could be stunted because of these issues and the backlash. That said, I also want them to feel safe to come out if someone inappropriately takes advantage of them. Its a terrible delima.

ONe thing I taught my girls from toddler age is to not accuse anyone of anything unless there is no doubt in their mind about it. For instance, when they would be working on homework and lose their pencil they's say something like "Who stole my pencil." They both know that this would send Dad into orbit since they didn't know if the thing had been stolen or just lost. Who stole it, how they stole it, etc. I carried this over into other aspects too where they must be certain of all the facts before they "accuse" anyone of anything. I hope that lesson serves them well in their life.

c_hawkbob wrote:The movement happened in the first place because it's a real thing. There are a whole lot of women and girls out there that have stories that are real, that severely effected their lives and that they've never told for fear of people's reactions and because they didn't want to become identified by an indecent that happened to them (I'd dare say many of our own wives, daughters and co-workers). Many (perhaps most) were/are strong enough get on with their lives and file the incident as a lesson learned. Unfortunately for some there was a real need to unburden themselves of that secret and the movement got instant momentum from so many women finally feeling free t say "yes, that's been my life too, maybe now we can all move on".

More unfortunately is the fact that the movement has also become a political tool and a social weapon. It became an automatic assumption that if a woman said "me too" and pointed a finger at an individual, the accused was obviously guilty. Thus this backlash ... Some of this backlash is justified, but a whole lot of it is the guilty saying "not me!"

I guess my point if I have one, is that every situation should be taken on it's own merits without the automatic assumptions that accompany either movement.

I'm mostly right here.

With any movement of this kind you're going to have abusers, liars, and stupidity, but this crap needed to be dealt with. Too often crimes and behavior of this kind are swept under the rug. Men need to act right. Women don't need to subjected to crude behavior when trying to make a living and survive in the world. Men that can't treat them properly need to be called out and hammered. I hope women also call out other women that treat men like trash such as lying about this kind of behavior to make a man suffer. This instance need to be vetted on a case by case basis carefully and without bias or attack.

The only thing I'll add is that women do have to develop a bit thicker skin nowadays. Men are willing to listen, but it can't reach the point where they scream "rapist or sex offender" then curl up in a ball and expect society to rampage over the person without clear and corroborated evidence. Otherwise it's not justice, it's just a lynch mob.