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49 home runs. Most all time by a catcher. Pretty incredible. Now all the pressure is off to break the record and he's adding to it. Probably hit quite a few more homeruns with no pressure on him now. Hell of a season and with Aaron Judge down he may well win the MLB American League MVP.

Aseahawkfan wrote:49 home runs. Most all time by a catcher. Pretty incredible. Now all the pressure is off to break the record and he's adding to it. Probably hit quite a few more homeruns with no pressure on him now. Hell of a season and with Aaron Judge down he may well win the MLB American League MVP.

Yeah, and I missed both homers! Cal's having a fantastic year. Next up is Mickey Mantle's record of 54 home runs in a season by a switch hitter, a record which has stood for 64 years.

But Judge is still playing, just not in the field. He's been the Yankee's DH for the past few games. He'd have to go through a heck of a slump for Cal to catch him as he's still leading the league in hitting with a batting average, 79 points higher than Cal's. The other thing that might determine the MVP is how well their teams do. If the M's miss the playoffs, it's unlikely that a member of their team will be named "most valuable."

Yeah, that was a heck of a way to match and then break the record today. Of course I also missed both of them as well! That’s what happens on sunny summer weekends. Asea’s point that the pressure is off may even help his average to start cooking up a little.

I do still expect the Mariners to make the playoffs. Still not sold on Dan at all as MGR, but the talent is probably just too good to not at least make a wildcard. But if we do win the division and Yankees are a wildcard, that would boost his MVP chances. I see him getting at least 55 jacks .

One side note worth mentioning is that both Cal's homers today were from the right side. Sure, he's officially a switch hitter but in previous years he has done much better from the left side of the plate. This year the right side seems to have caught up.

The Mariners' middle relief bullpen has been the weak link this year. The starting pitching hasn't been as good either as in the previous few years but some of that is due to injuries. It's the middle relief core that has often let games get away from them. I have not been impressed with Ferguson so far, whom they traded for recently.

trents wrote: Sure, he's officially a switch hitter but in previous years he has done much better from the left side of the plate. This year the right side seems to have caught up.

That's what always impressed me about Mickey Mantle. He was a natural right-handed hitter, yet most of his home runs came from the left side of the plate. But Mantle was literally bred as a switch hitter, He grew up with his father pitching to him right-handed, his grandpa pitching to him left-handed.

Mantle recalled that there was a time when he was in high school that he got frustrated with his lack of hitting and went to hit right-handed against a right-handed pitcher. His dad came onto the field and slapped the crap out of him, made him turn around and hit left.

I don't want to divert the thread, but I've read a lot about Mickey Mantle as he, along with Willie Mays, was one of my first childhood heroes.

River Dog wrote:That's what always impressed me about Mickey Mantle. He was a natural right-handed hitter, yet most of his home runs came from the left side of the plate. But Mantle was literally bred as a switch hitter, He grew up with his father pitching to him right-handed, his grandpa pitching to him left-handed.

Mantle recalled that there was a time when he was in high school that he got frustrated with his lack of hitting and went to hit right-handed against a right-handed pitcher. His dad came onto the field and slapped the crap out of him, made him turn around and hit left.

I don't want to divert the thread, but I've read a lot about Mickey Mantle as he, along with Willie Mays, was one of my first childhood heroes.

Childhood heroes? I haven't heard that term in a while.

My first childhood hero was Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was such an inspiration in my youth. He still is. Blew my mind when I first saw him in Conan at 11. What he did with his life is amazing.

But my strongest childhood inspirations were my grandfathers. Tough, quiet, hard working, enduring, from that generation that believed in family, duty, and responsibility. It's real hard to deal with this younger generation of whiny people always looking for attention after seeing what my grandfathers lived through and how hard they worked to survive and provide. Microaggressions, emotional issues, anxiety, and other crap I see complained about today I don't even know how to process after watching them. I look at them and anything I'm dealing with is small potatoes to what they dealt with living through The Great Depression, World War 2, and all that came with those massive, world shaping events.

Baseball players and athletes as childhood heroes seems like a bygone time. Not even sure how children see them nowadays when they are constantly changing teams, crying about contracts, and getting attention for all the wrong reasons.

River Dog wrote:That's what always impressed me about Mickey Mantle. He was a natural right-handed hitter, yet most of his home runs came from the left side of the plate. But Mantle was literally bred as a switch hitter, He grew up with his father pitching to him right-handed, his grandpa pitching to him left-handed.

Mantle recalled that there was a time when he was in high school that he got frustrated with his lack of hitting and went to hit right-handed against a right-handed pitcher. His dad came onto the field and slapped the crap out of him, made him turn around and hit left.

I don't want to divert the thread, but I've read a lot about Mickey Mantle as he, along with Willie Mays, was one of my first childhood heroes.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Childhood heroes? I haven't heard that term in a while.

My first childhood hero was Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was such an inspiration in my youth. He still is. Blew my mind when I first saw him in Conan at 11. What he did with his life is amazing.

But my strongest childhood inspirations were my grandfathers. Tough, quiet, hard working, enduring, from that generation that believed in family, duty, and responsibility. It's real hard to deal with this younger generation of whiny people always looking for attention after seeing what my grandfathers lived through and how hard they worked to survive and provide. Microaggressions, emotional issues, anxiety, and other crap I see complained about today I don't even know how to process after watching them. I look at them and anything I'm dealing with is small potatoes to what they dealt with living through The Great Depression, World War 2, and all that came with those massive, world shaping events.

Baseball players and athletes as childhood heroes seems like a bygone time. Not even sure how children see them nowadays when they are constantly changing teams, crying about contracts, and getting attention for all the wrong reasons.

I didn't necessarily emulate any of my 'childhood heroes,' although some of my friends would try to duplicate a swing or some kind of mannerism of theirs. To me, they were athletes who I rooted for and followed. There were some that would try to emulate The Beatles by growing their hair like theirs, but my old man wouldn't permit it.

And yes, free agency, although obviously great for the players, is horrible for the fans. Professional athletes were almost like family back in the pre-free agency days. There is no longer a sense of loyalty to teams or their fans anymore. I don't want to see pro sports return to the days where the owners were making tons of money while the league MVP was having to drive a beer truck in the offseason to pay the bills, but I sure wish there was some sort of compromise that would restrict player movement between teams.

River Dog wrote:
I didn't necessarily emulate any of my 'childhood heroes,' although some of my friends would try to duplicate a swing or some kind of mannerism of theirs. To me, they were athletes who I rooted for and followed. There were some that would try to emulate The Beatles by growing their hair like theirs, but my old man wouldn't permit it.

And yes, free agency, although obviously great for the players, is horrible for the fans. Professional athletes were almost like family back in the pre-free agency days. There is no longer a sense of loyalty to teams or their fans anymore. I don't want to see pro sports return to the days where the owners were making tons of money while the league MVP was having to drive a beer truck in the offseason to pay the bills, but I sure wish there was some sort of compromise that would restrict player movement between teams.

Would be nice. The teams are as cutthroat as the players showing no loyalty, cutting or trading them as soon as the can find something better or they don't perform or are hurt. Definitely a different sports era.

I wonder if the young people have any heroes anymore given the way people act and all the news that comes out about what all these people are doing.

Don't forget about his old room mate, Logan Gilbert with a career high of 13 strikeouts. They were both on fire! Funny enough, I was stuck on the Hood Canal bridge for at least an hour yesterday. My saving grace was listening to one of the greatest moments in Seattle sports history on KIRO radio. Rick Risss was almost in tears. Amazing day for the M's!

Logan Gilbert is doing great too. This pitching staff is as good as I've ever seen it absent a dominating pitcher like Randy Johnson. Kirby, Woo, Gilbert, Luis, and even our 5th guy when he's on can be great. Middle relievers and bats holding this team back. I wish Mariners management would go all in why they have this amazing pitching staff.

Logan Gilbert reminds me of Mark "The Bird" Fidrych, a pitcher for the Detroit Tigers, who was quite a character:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fidrych

The physical resemblance with the floppy, curly hair, the flair of his delivery, etc.

Someone brought up a good point. Cal Raleigh has hit 9 of his 50 home runs this season as a DH. Johnny Bench hit 45 in the National League prior to the DH rule. Should Cal's record stand?

The same criticism will happen if Cal breaks Mickey Mantle's record of 54 home runs as a switch hitter. As often as Mantle missed games due to injury, you would think that he would have had a number of them where he could have at least batted had there been a DH rule in 1961.

Anyone want to break out the dreaded asterisk?

River Dog wrote:Someone brought up a good point. Cal Raleigh has hit 9 of his 50 home runs this season as a DH. Johnny Bench hit 45 in the National League prior to the DH rule. Should Cal's record stand?

The same criticism will happen if Cal breaks Mickey Mantle's record of 54 home runs as a switch hitter. As often as Mantle missed games due to injury, you would think that he would have had a number of them where he could have at least batted had there been a DH rule in 1961.

Anyone want to break out the dreaded asterisk?

Of course it should stand. You can't control rule changes. Long as Cal isn't using the juice, then he's good.

River Dog wrote:Someone brought up a good point. Cal Raleigh has hit 9 of his 50 home runs this season as a DH. Johnny Bench hit 45 in the National League prior to the DH rule. Should Cal's record stand?

The same criticism will happen if Cal breaks Mickey Mantle's record of 54 home runs as a switch hitter. As often as Mantle missed games due to injury, you would think that he would have had a number of them where he could have at least batted had there been a DH rule in 1961.

Anyone want to break out the dreaded asterisk?

Aseahawkfan wrote:Of course it should stand. You can't control rule changes. Long as Cal isn't using the juice, then he's good.

I shouldn't have implied that it shouldn't stand. But to be fair, it does have to be put in context if you're going to say that he did something that Johnny Bench or Mickey Mantle didn't do. We're comparing apples and oranges.

River Dog wrote:I shouldn't have implied that it shouldn't stand. But to be fair, it does have to be put in context if you're going to say that he did something that Johnny Bench or Mickey Mantle didn't do. We're comparing apples and oranges.

We always are. You can argue Cal is doing what he is doing in the era of pitching where batting averages are low and its harder to hit homeruns. He's also in a park where homeruns are not easy to hit, so he has to maximize his opportunities in hitter's parks. Really, it just comes down to the raw number so long as you aren't known for breaking the rules like the juicers.

River Dog wrote:I shouldn't have implied that it shouldn't stand. But to be fair, it does have to be put in context if you're going to say that he did something that Johnny Bench or Mickey Mantle didn't do. We're comparing apples and oranges.

Aseahawkfan wrote:We always are. You can argue Cal is doing what he is doing in the era of pitching where batting averages are low and its harder to hit homeruns. He's also in a park where homeruns are not easy to hit, so he has to maximize his opportunities in hitter's parks. Really, it just comes down to the raw number so long as you aren't known for breaking the rules like the juicers.

Yeah, and Mickey Mantle hit his dingers in a home stadium where center field was 461 feet away, left center 457. But I do think that the DH rule is a big one as it not only gives a player more opportunities during a season, but it also extends careers.

"The Juicers," ie Bonds, McGuire, Clemmons, Sosa, et al, weren't breaking any MLB rules like Pete Rose did, nor were they ever accused of committing a crime. There were no rules regulating PED's. Heck Willie Mays used to keep what he called his "red juice" in his locker, supposedly loaded with amphetamines. Sandy Koufax took multiple cortisone shots and pain killers that he said made him high. What's the difference between that and what The Juciers did? They've been effectively black balled. All of their records should be allowed to stand and the otherwise qualified players admitted to the HOF, but there should be a comments section where their records and achievements can be qualified as there are so many variables that affect them. Plus, a story needs to be told about these players. They aren't Saints, and sometimes we have this tendency to worship them as if they're some kind of deity.

Another controversy that seems to have died down is the new torpedo bats. I saw Cal Raleigh hit a home run with just one hand on his bat when he made contact. Mantle hit numerous home runs that traveled well over 500'. I wonder how far he would have hit them had he had the benefit of a torpedo bat.

River Dog wrote:Yeah, and Mickey Mantle hit his dingers in a home stadium where center field was 461 feet away, left center 457. But I do think that the DH rule is a big one as it not only gives a player more opportunities during a season, but it also extends careers.

"The Juicers," ie Bonds, McGuire, Clemmons, Sosa, et al, weren't breaking any MLB rules like Pete Rose did, nor were they ever accused of committing a crime. There were no rules regulating PED's. Heck Willie Mays used to keep what he called his "red juice" in his locker, supposedly loaded with amphetamines. Sandy Koufax took multiple cortisone shots and pain killers that he said made him high. What's the difference between that and what The Juciers did? They've been effectively black balled. All of their records should be allowed to stand and the otherwise qualified players admitted to the HOF, but there should be a comments section where their records and achievements can be qualified as there are so many variables that affect them. Plus, a story needs to be told about these players. They aren't Saints, and sometimes we have this tendency to worship them as if they're some kind of deity.

Another controversy that seems to have died down is the new torpedo bats. I saw Cal Raleigh hit a home run with just one hand on his bat when he made contact. Mantle hit numerous home runs that traveled well over 500'. I wonder how far he would have hit them had he had the benefit of a torpedo bat.

Juice is entirely different than amphetamines or painkillers. As a fan of bodybuilding that didn't learn about juice until I was older, it is easy to see juice is a huge benefit far beyond anything else. They have done studies on juice where it adds more muscle doing nothing than working out does. Why baseball had no rules in place for it is beyond me. If you look at natural bodybuilders compared to enhanced, it's a night and day difference that makes the benefits of juice immense. When something can add 70 plus pounds of lean muscle beyond what can be built naturally, everything else just looks weak compared to the juice.

I have no idea what Mantle's genetics would have done for him in the modern day or Babe Ruth's or Wilt Chamberlain. Maybe he would be able to keep hitting immense homers, but maybe he would be just another great player. I'm not even sure how they measured homeruns back in Mantle's day, but I'm dubious they had the tech they have now to measure homeruns more precisely. So his homeruns may have been exaggerated like so much else from those old times. Even in strength sports they often exaggerate how strong some of the older lifters were with estimates of amazing feats that they likely never pulled off or are exaggerated weights. When you don't have the tech to measure like you do now, you can come up with great numbers that can't be proven or disproven.

I'm still surprised they didn't track sacks in the NFL. That's why records of sacks from those days are likely from game review.

List of longest homeruns: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/mlb/longest-home-runs-in-mlb-history

All of the longest homeruns were pre use of advanced measuring technologies.

I'm supposed to believe that once homeruns were measured using advanced tech, the MLB players suddenly couldn't hit homeruns as far? Let' just say I'm dubious of that. We always talk about older players and they played in times when exaggerating their legend was common. I don't think they would have performed the feats they did back then in the modern day.

Which is another reason why I'm fine with Cal's record. Cal's doing it under very precise circumstances with pitchers managed by advanced metrics with strong relieving bullpens in multiple parks. He's good. Everything he does will be carefully tracked, measured, and he's not going against one tired pitcher pushing 9 innings, but entire pitching staffs built to ensure no drop off in pitching from 1 to 9.

River Dog wrote:Yeah, and Mickey Mantle hit his dingers in a home stadium where center field was 461 feet away, left center 457. But I do think that the DH rule is a big one as it not only gives a player more opportunities during a season, but it also extends careers.

"The Juicers," ie Bonds, McGuire, Clemmons, Sosa, et al, weren't breaking any MLB rules like Pete Rose did, nor were they ever accused of committing a crime. There were no rules regulating PED's. Heck Willie Mays used to keep what he called his "red juice" in his locker, supposedly loaded with amphetamines. Sandy Koufax took multiple cortisone shots and pain killers that he said made him high. What's the difference between that and what The Juciers did? They've been effectively black balled. All of their records should be allowed to stand and the otherwise qualified players admitted to the HOF, but there should be a comments section where their records and achievements can be qualified as there are so many variables that affect them. Plus, a story needs to be told about these players. They aren't Saints, and sometimes we have this tendency to worship them as if they're some kind of deity.

Another controversy that seems to have died down is the new torpedo bats. I saw Cal Raleigh hit a home run with just one hand on his bat when he made contact. Mantle hit numerous home runs that traveled well over 500'. I wonder how far he would have hit them had he had the benefit of a torpedo bat.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Juice is entirely different than amphetamines or painkillers. As a fan of bodybuilding that didn't learn about juice until I was older, it is easy to see juice is a huge benefit far beyond anything else. They have done studies on juice where it adds more muscle doing nothing than working out does. Why baseball had no rules in place for it is beyond me. If you look at natural bodybuilders compared to enhanced, it's a night and day difference that makes the benefits of juice immense. When something can add 70 plus pounds of lean muscle beyond what can be built naturally, everything else just looks weak compared to the juice.

I have no idea what Mantle's genetics would have done for him in the modern day or Babe Ruth's or Wilt Chamberlain. Maybe he would be able to keep hitting immense homers, but maybe he would be just another great player. I'm not even sure how they measured homeruns back in Mantle's day, but I'm dubious they had the tech they have now to measure homeruns more precisely. So his homeruns may have been exaggerated like so much else from those old times. Even in strength sports they often exaggerate how strong some of the older lifters were with estimates of amazing feats that they likely never pulled off or are exaggerated weights. When you don't have the tech to measure like you do now, you can come up with great numbers that can't be proven or disproven.

I'm still surprised they didn't track sacks in the NFL. That's why records of sacks from those days are likely from game review.

List of longest homeruns: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/mlb/longest-home-runs-in-mlb-history

All of the longest homeruns were pre use of advanced measuring technologies.

I'm supposed to believe that once homeruns were measured using advanced tech, the MLB players suddenly couldn't hit homeruns as far? Let' just say I'm dubious of that. We always talk about older players and they played in times when exaggerating their legend was common. I don't think they would have performed the feats they did back then in the modern day.

Which is another reason why I'm fine with Cal's record. Cal's doing it under very precise circumstances with pitchers managed by advanced metrics with strong relieving bullpens in multiple parks. He's good. Everything he does will be carefully tracked, measured, and he's not going against one tired pitcher pushing 9 innings, but entire pitching staffs built to ensure no drop off in pitching from 1 to 9.

They retroactively measured one of Mantle's home runs as they know exactly where it hit: On the right field facade of Yankee Stadium, 18" from going out of the park. Known measurements of the stadium show that the ball was 370' straight line distance from home plate and measured 185' from the ground. That math alone tells you that it was hit over 500'. Modern day estimates are that it would have traveled 734 feet had it not hit the facade, but who knows what the wind was doing, barometric pressure, etc. There was one ball Mantle hit, someone saw where it landed, ran and got a tape measure and determined the distance at 565'. Hence the term "tape measure home run" was born. We can question those estimates, but I don't think it a stretch of the truth at all to say that Mantle hit multiple home runs well over 500' in his career.

I'm fine with Cal's record, too. But as you just pointed out, the game has changed. Ted Williams had 7 years taken out of the prime of his career due to military service and still hit over 500 home runs during his career. Or how about all the black players that couldn't play in the majors? We could go on and on.

That's one of the things I like about baseball. It's a historian's dream, and there's lots of fun debates we can get into.

BTW, if you like documentaries, one of the best ones I've seen on any subject is Ken Burns' "Baseball". Check it out of you get a chance.