"Praise in Public, Chastise in Private"

[RiverDog]

As it seems that some posters, despite their willing participation, feel that it is inappropriate to discuss some of the negative attributes of a recently deceased college coach in what is essentially an RIP thread, I decided to honor that request to start a different thread, so here ya go.

Have you ever heard the advice quoted in the thread title? I have on a number of occasions, beginning with my parents.

It's an undeniable fact that former TTU, WSU, and MSU head coach Mike Leach, on more than one occasion, was openly critical of his players by, among other things, calling them derogatory, insulting names in public, at times in news conferences for the whole world to see. Secondly, Leach was fired from one job, at Texas Tech, for refusing to cooperate in a university investigation involving allegations of locking up a player in a dark room as punishment for reporting concussion symptoms. While the details of this incident are not clear and are open to debate, it is further evidence of a lack of appreciation for the variety of personalities Leach had as a head coach of a D1 school.

I mentioned the name of Tyler Hilinski, the 21 year old quarterback that committed suicide while he was a member of Mike Leach's WSU Cougars. I'm not accusing Leach of being a factor in any way, shape, or form of Hilinski's suicide. But it does provide a dramatic, real life example of why coaches and other authority figures should NOT be intentionally humiliating players AT ALL, let alone with dozens of media, microphones, and TV cameras present. Do it one-on-one, behind closed doors, and with the minimum amount of people present as possible. It's a common principle that most of us have learned in a variety of applications involving such tasks as parenting, supervision, and in education, a career that Coach Leach was employed in.

So, while we all mourn the passing of Coach Leach and have expressed condolences to his family and friends, it does not obscure the fact that the man was a very controversial figure with a management style best suited for a Marine Corps drill sergeant than a college football coach.

[trents]

It's not that I disagree with you River but I would add that young people today seem to be more fragile psychologically than they were 50-60 years ago.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'll state a few issues I have with your statement.

One, prefacing Leach isn't to blame, while bringing up a person committing suicide while on the team is basically blaming the coach or the treatment of the person. I have had a few family members commit suicide and a few friends. How you treat them whether public praise or humiliation has not much to do with them committing suicide. I would never moderate my behavior based on someone else's suicidal behavior. I've been around suicidal people and catering to their depression and often negative viewpoint is going to lead you to a very dark place. You help when you can, but your behavior has very little to do with their suicidal behaviors.

Suicidal people often have very problematic brain issues that are difficult to diagnose or understand that if the behavior of others could fix, would be fixed a lot more often. So I don't take that into account when judging behavior.

I don't believe in a singular way of managing people. Public shaming has and can be a very effective tool to moderate behavior. We've seen it used many times to excellent effect all throughout history. Even today the public shaming of racists and other negative behaviors is used often and is referred to as "canceling" or "woke" culture. Public shaming for negative behaviors you want fixed is an effective tool in human management that many people don't like, but it doesn't make the tactic ineffective.

Do I like crass public shaming like Leach engaged in? Usually not. In the older days if Leach did what he did in public, someone would be looking to kick his ass. I know from perspective if you publicly call me out and we're face to face, we're going to have a problem. And it's going to be settled a hard way if you run your mouth too much.

Like trents mentions, this younger generation has been taught males can't settle affairs with fists and I don't agree with that. Men like to push each other a bit and learning to stand up for yourself as a man against some abuse is part of growing up and toughening up. Now if someone is being abusive like a bully and it's constant and done to victimize, then yeah, that needs to be checked. But a bit busting on each other's balls or busting a guy's balls for being lazy or screwing up is something you learn to live with, get better at what you need to get better at, and move on.

If Leach is being an abusive bully to be a bully, then sure, call him on it and halt the behavior. But if his boys know him well and they know he's breaking their balls some to toughen them up and get them to play better and deal with public stress, then it isn't necessarily a bad thing. You break a guy's balls some to get him to play harder, then build them back up during the week of practice.

There are various ways to manage. I wouldn't buy too tightly into one way. Public shaming is one method of pushing conformity and sending a message of get better if you want it to stop. A tool in the human management arsenal.

As far as corporate world, the watered down, legalistic threat of constant litigation corporate world with both genders working together, of course you walk a fine line so you don't end up fired or getting the company sued. Then these same people wonder why the modern work ethic isn't great any more when you can't do what you need to do to motivate some slacker, dope smoking kid raised by parents that never taught him he had to do any hard work to earn his way in the world. Sometimes you need to let people know they need to get to work and do better and you can start off in private and escalate as needed to send the message slacking off isn't tolerated.

I think you need a mix of ways to motivate others. Men sometimes need some public shame to sink into their thick skulls as long as after you discipline, you motivate and make it clear you want them better.

[RiverDog]

It's not that I disagree with you River but I would add that young people today seem to be more fragile psychologically than they were 50-60 years ago.

I'm not sure if young people are more fragile than they were 50-60 years ago or if today's society is more sensitive to the issue of verbal harassment than they were back in the day. IMO it's probably a combination of both.

Verbal abuse is a very difficult type of trauma to handle, especially when it is used by a person in authority on a subordinate, ie a parent to a child, boss to a worker, a teacher to a student, or a coach to a player. Unlike that abuse given by one peer to another, the recipient has no alternative but to accept it and deal with it as best they can. They cannot retaliate or respond in kind as to do so would likely result in some undesirable repercussions.

We all know the mentality of military organizations, particularly the USMC with their drill sergeants when training basic recruits. Although I am not qualified to speak on the subject as I have never served in the armed forces, my understanding is that the goal of this intensive training, affectionately known as boot camp, is to break the will and independence of the recruit by, among other things, subjecting them to some very intense and deeply personal verbal abuse. Many of us have seen the movie "Full Metal Jacket", a fictional story that centers around this training and that involved a murder-suicide committed by one of the recruits. I would be curious to know if the armed forces have changed their approach to this kind of aggressive, demeaning behavior practiced by their instructors or if they've come to the realization that this practice could cause irreparable psychological harm to some individuals. My suspicion is that it has, but I'd appreciate it if someone with more knowledge on the subject would weigh in.

Certainly, coaching styles have changed over the years. No longer are the tactics of coaches like Bobby Knight, who ironically shared the same athletic department with Mike Leach at Texas Tech for 9 years, an acceptable means of motivation for coaches, especially those who work with younger people.

[Hawktawk]

My understanding is the kid had a breakup with a girl . It was as much as anything else a combination of a gun and a depressed young male . Nobody wants to talk about that though . Just shouldn’t be linked to Leach .
I was raised by a psychotic father who physically and mentally and sexually abused all of us , 2 boys and 4 girls. I get why people kill themselves for sure but I could never do it to my friends and family at the time . But people give mental illness a bad name . My best friend didn’t believe when I was diagnosed bipolar . Anyway hearts open to you all . River you and I keep threatening to meet up but I fear we would get liquored up and beat each other down the way we go at it anymore . Probably should move it to OT

[RiverDog]

My understanding is the kid had a breakup with a girl . It was as much as anything else a combination of a gun and a depressed young male . Nobody wants to talk about that though . Just shouldn’t be linked to Leach.

I never linked Hilinski's suicide to Leach's behavior, even went out of my way to say that I wasn't doing so. I only used it as an example of a fragile young mind that was subject to emotional stress and why we should be sensitive to verbal abuse.

I was raised by a psychotic father who physically and mentally and sexually abused all of us , 2 boys and 4 girls. I get why people kill themselves for sure but I could never do it to my friends and family at the time . But people give mental illness a bad name . My best friend didn’t believe when I was diagnosed bipolar . Anyway hearts open to you all . River you and I keep threatening to meet up but I fear we would get liquored up and beat each other down the way we go at it anymore . Probably should move it to OT

So creating a new thread as request isn't enough? Now you want me to take it to OT? Sorry, man, it's a football related topic, part of what has always been accepted in this section of the Shack.

I appreciate your sharing your personal experience with us. I was raised by a very loving family, the best parents I could have ever asked for, so fortunately for me, I cannot relate to your upbringing except to say that I'm sorry that you had to endure what you did. It's because of stories like your own that I objected to Mike Leach's tactics.

We'll meet up some day, and we won't' "beat each other down." It's all good, my friend! I consider you as part of my extended family

[trents]

I note that Leach never repeated the public embarrassment of players approach at MSU that he committed at WSU. Perhaps he learned from that. Perhaps he grew and changed. Sometimes we don't give people enough room to do that. We lock them into their past mistakes. Sometimes we need more grace.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not sure if young people are more fragile than they were 50-60 years ago or if today's society is more sensitive to the issue of verbal harassment than they were back in the day. IMO it's probably a combination of both.

Verbal abuse is a very difficult type of trauma to handle, especially when it is used by a person in authority on a subordinate, ie a parent to a child, boss to a worker, a teacher to a student, or a coach to a player. Unlike that abuse given by one peer to another, the recipient has no alternative but to accept it and deal with it as best they can. They cannot retaliate or respond in kind as to do so would likely result in some undesirable repercussions.

We all know the mentality of military organizations, particularly the USMC with their drill sergeants when training basic recruits. Although I am not qualified to speak on the subject as I have never served in the armed forces, my understanding is that the goal of this intensive training, affectionately known as boot camp, is to break the will and independence of the recruit by, among other things, subjecting them to some very intense and deeply personal verbal abuse. Many of us have seen the movie "Full Metal Jacket", a fictional story that centers around this training and that involved a murder-suicide committed by one of the recruits. I would be curious to know if the armed forces have changed their approach to this kind of aggressive, demeaning behavior practiced by their instructors or if they've come to the realization that this practice could cause irreparable psychological harm to some individuals. My suspicion is that it has, but I'd appreciate it if someone with more knowledge on the subject would weigh in.

Certainly, coaching styles have changed over the years. No longer are the tactics of coaches like Bobby Knight, who ironically shared the same athletic department with Mike Leach at Texas Tech for 9 years, an acceptable means of motivation for coaches, especially those who work with younger people.

They certainly are more fragile. When you're using words like microaggression and constantly talking about your anxiety, you're being taught to be more fragile. If you started using the word microaggression when you were young, you'd get looked at like you were stupid.

Humans adapt to their environment. If their environment is soft, they'll be soft. If it is a hard environment, they'll harden up. And today's environment has been made into a very soft environment. It has little to do with genetics and everything to do with the adaptive environment in which you live. Depression Era folks didn't have much of a choice but to be tough because no one was going to help you because they could barely help themselves.

Just like our grandparents were tougher than most of us. And their grandparents tougher than them. I guarantee those men and women who were coming over here in the middle of nowhere with no pre-existing settlement or house who had to clear the wood away with hand axes and strip it and prepare for house building while hunting their own food and starting crops from nothing were tough as iron mentally and physically because the other option was death by starvation or freezing.

It really comes down to looking a the environment people live in and creating a situation that will cause humans to adapt in a way that is desirable and productive whether on a mass scale such as by government or on a small scale like parenting or coaching. All you have to do is take a look at the people today and how they are being socialized to see the soft socialization whether it's no standards for grades in school and wanting to eliminate grade or statistical measures of accomplishment to participation trophies in sports.

You can quantify and see the modern day behaviors that are undesirable and being pushed upon the young mostly by the social science community who have a strong incentive to do so to justify their existence.

[RiverDog]

I note that Leach never repeated the public embarrassment of players approach at MSU that he committed at WSU. Perhaps he learned from that. Perhaps he grew and changed. Sometimes we don't give people enough room to do that. We lock them into their past mistakes. Sometimes we need more grace.

That's a good point. Perhaps that was due to his new employer at MSU drawing a line in the sand. They are an SEC team and likely had more viable candidates for their position than WSU had for theirs. Leach had quite a reputation that preceded him, and the school might have seen him as a legal risk and laid down the law for him. If that's the case, then kudos to Coach Leach for being able to teach an old dog new tricks and MSU for recognizing the importance of the treatment of their students by their educators.

[RiverDog]

They certainly are more fragile. When you're using words like microaggression and constantly talking about your anxiety, you're being taught to be more fragile. If you started using the word microaggression when you were young, you'd get looked at like you were stupid.

Humans adapt to their environment. If their environment is soft, they'll be soft. If it is a hard environment, they'll harden up. And today's environment has been made into a very soft environment. It has little to do with genetics and everything to do with the adaptive environment in which you live. Depression Era folks didn't have much of a choice but to be tough because no one was going to help you because they could barely help themselves.

Just like our grandparents were tougher than most of us. And their grandparents tougher than them. I guarantee those men and women who were coming over here in the middle of nowhere with no pre-existing settlement or house who had to clear the wood away with hand axes and strip it and prepare for house building while hunting their own food and starting crops from nothing were tough as iron mentally and physically because the other option was death by starvation or freezing.

It really comes down to looking a the environment people live in and creating a situation that will cause humans to adapt in a way that is desirable and productive whether on a mass scale such as by government or on a small scale like parenting or coaching. All you have to do is take a look at the people today and how they are being socialized to see the soft socialization whether it's no standards for grades in school and wanting to eliminate grade or statistical measures of accomplishment to participation trophies in sports.

You can quantify and see the modern day behaviors that are undesirable and being pushed upon the young mostly by the social science community who have a strong incentive to do so to justify their existence.

Neither of us know for sure whether the problem is more environmental, as you seem to be indicating, or if it's genetic in nature, that some people are going to have their illness inherited. I suspect that it's a little of both and varies from person to person.

But it's not just the mentally unstable that we should be concerned about. The type of tactics that Coach Leach practiced is not a good way to run a railroad no matter who it is you're dealing with: Young people or adults, emotionally stable or mentally ill, or whether you're a parent, a teacher, a coach, or a manager.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

The type of tactics that Coach Leach practiced is not a good way to run a railroad no matter who it is you're dealing with: Young people or adults, emotionally stable or mentally ill, or whether you're a parent, a teacher, a coach, or a manager.

I asked you in the other thread, and I'll ask again here: what do you know about how he runs his program other than what you see in the media? Have you been to his practices? Team meetings? Have you talked to any of his players from any of his stints about him? That doesn't mean what he says and does in front of the press is above reproach, but it also doesn't nearly tell the whole story.

I don't know how he would be able to sustain a 22-year (and likely longer) head coaching career with a winning record (meaning good players have to want to play for you) if he was abusive on the regular.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

"Mike Leach was not only my head coach, but he was my position coach all five of my years at Texas Tech. I spent more time with him than any other player during my five years and had meetings with him every day. He was very hard on me and every other player in program and he held very high expectations for every player.

He would push us all every day during the season and during the off-season. He felt that hard work, dedication and doing things right was the only way we could be successful and compete in the Big XII conference. He worked harder and longer than anyone else in program and was committed to winning at all cost.

He would never have been unfair to a player or not played the best players he had because he wanted to win more than anything else. Coach Leach also expected us to be tough but smart at the same time. He would not pressure a kid to play with a serious injury or play when he did not feel ready to play.

Coach Leach is a man that cares about his player and puts his players, coaches and the well being of the Texas Tech football program above all else.

Coach Leach is a great coach at Texas Tech that emphasizes the importance of hard work and doing things the right way so that the football program has the best opportunity possible to be successful. He, along with the administration and the rest of his staff, have built a great football program at Texas Tech that is built on the virtues and principles that give any program an opportunity to be successful.

Every single player may not buy into the program’s beliefs, but Mike Leach has almost everyone on board with him and the Texas Tech football program on a successful track."

Graham Harrell

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

"As a player under coach Leach, I have experienced some of the most memorable moments of my life in which I am very grateful for. As I stated I am a former Red Raider that played for Mike Leach and got to know him well over my four years as a Red Raider.

I admire the professionalism and dedication Mike had for the game, the university and his players. He always demanded the best from each of us and we became better players and people for it. Although he pushed his players and coaches to be the best, his decisions and actions were always consistent with maintaining the program’s integrity and were in the best interest of his players.

As a player, my commitment to the team was based on the trust I had developed in Coach Leach as a leader who would always put his players and his team in the best possible position for success. As a result of his guidance and coaching, in combination with my own hard work, I was able to overcome great adversity to become an All-American tackle.

A couple of bowl games ago in the Gator Bowl, I suffered a severe injury to my lower left leg in which took a lot of support from family, friends, fans, coach’s, teammates and most importantly coach Leach to get me back. It was a long road to recovery that took careful attention from trainers during practices, and Leach was always checking to make sure that I was ok.

During camp, oftentimes I had to practice one day and then take a day off because of soreness. Coach Leach was very understanding, always had my best interest in mind at all times, and I will always be appreciative of that.

Another incident that occurred was after my pro day in which I hurt my knee and my dream of playing in the NFL quickly came to a halt so I went home to rehab with two semesters left from graduating.

I was able to get a job and start working, but quickly realized that to get the dream job in the real world that I always wanted, it would take getting my degree from Texas Tech. When I got home from work one day, I got a phone call from coach Leach asking, if they were able to get some paper work filled out, would I be willing to come back to school to finish my degree, and of course I said yes.

I am proud to say that, as a result of coach Leach’s influence, I will finish my degree from Texas Tech in May 2010. If that does not show how coach Leach cares for his players, then I do not know what does.

The allegations against coach Leach are not consistent with the standards and beliefs that he has for himself and the University of Texas Tech. He has always been fair and respectful to my teammates and I.

I was very saddened to hear that someone could try to take away all that he has done for this university, players and fans. I hope that you take this into consideration, and I also would be willing to further discuss anything in detail in person or by phone.

Sincerely,"

Rylan Reed

[Hawktawk]

I wonder how Woody Hays ran practice ?
I graduated in 77. Being a member of the team as a freshman in 74 was terrifying . As a 120 lb 14 year old I was put through drills like bull in the ring getting the crap knocked out of me by guys twice my size . And the sadistic hazing by seniors the coach turned a blind eye to . But in 75 we won the b11 title giving up 18 points in the regular season . I’d never trade that championship for anything . Still Facebook buddies with My coaches . It ain’t patty cake . It’s a violent game that requires physical and mental toughness . Coaches do it their way .
I sucked coaching grid kids . I won’t judge .

[RiverDog]

I asked you in the other thread, and I'll ask again here: what do you know about how he runs his program other than what you see in the media? Have you been to his practices? Team meetings? Have you talked to any of his players from any of his stints about him? That doesn't mean what he says and does in front of the press is above reproach, but it also doesn't nearly tell the whole story.

I don't know how he would be able to sustain a 22-year (and likely longer) head coaching career with a winning record (meaning good players have to want to play for you) if he was abusive on the regular.

Why are you being such a smart Alec? Of course, I haven't been to any of Leach's practices or team meetings. Have you? I see no reason for that line of questioning.

Leach's tirades are a matter of record, and it makes you wonder if he was that bold and unrestrained in in his press conferences, what was he like when it was just him and his players and coaches? Or did he just do it for the cameras, that he was showboating just to get attention, and that behind the curtain, he was as gentle as a Teddy bear, and that he ran his team like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood? My guess is that he was just as bad, if not worse, than what he was in public, that wasn't all just for show. But do I know that for sure? Of course, not.

It's pointless for you to post comments from former players. We've all acknowledged that the vast majority of players will leave with a favorable impression. Secondly, the two players you quoted were both starters for multiple seasons. They're not likely to be the whipping boy. I'd be more interested in what a reserve offensive guard that quit the program had to say about him than I would Graham Harrell, the star quarterback. It's the guys on the bubble and aren't that good of athletes that are going to be subjected to a coach's verbal abuse, and I can attest to that from personal experience. They'll never receive the same degree of praise that the starters get that helps offset the negative comments the coach dishes out.

As far as the likelihood of running a major college football program, abusing his players, and having his behavior go unchallenged, we have to keep in mind that the head football coach is the highest paid college employee on campus, and in some states, such as in Washington, they're highest paid state employee. That alone creates an environment where a coach can be an intimidating presence even for their superiors. The head coach, at many colleges, has more power and influence than his boss the AD has. Have you ever watched the ESPN series "The Last Days of Knight"? While Leach was not a living legend with multiple national championships like Bobby Knight was, it shows how a coach can get away with being abusive to his players.

Or how about re-visiting the relationship of Joe Paterno and the administration at Penn State, how they could employ an assistant coach that was a pedophile and sweep the complaints about him under the carpet. It's very believable that Leach could have been verbally abusing his players on a regular basis and have it go unchallenged. Besides, it doesn't have to be regular abuse, just mis-timed and involving the wrong player or players for it to have had a preventable, detrimental effect.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

River,

I'm asking sincerely because it sounds like you have him pegged to a T; either you were there on a regular basis, or you have some very impressive telepathic abilities we aren't aware of. You're extrapolating the very narrow picture Mike Leach presents to the press to his daily behavior for his entire 22-year head coaching career. Wondering and having him dead to rights on it are two very different things. That's the point of the questions is to point out that fallacy. I'm taking you to task because you are making a weak argument. You're now conceding that maybe he didn't, but you've pretty much made up your mind that he did.

So, the testimonies of former players (and fellow coaches/staff if you would take the time to read emails in the links I provided) don't move the needle at all, but what you've seen from Mike Leach in the press is enough to close the book on him. You can't offer any opposing first-hand accounts and one of your primary "sources" for your disdain of the man can't be verified. Yes, he said what he said, but trotting players out to apologize to the press is a dubious claim until proven otherwise.

Sure, it's believable that Leach could have been verbally abusing players; it's also possible Nick Saban is the biggest Richard Cranium college football players have ever had the pleasure of being coached by. It would be believable about any of them. As for reserve players, it's also believable they would view the coaches and staff unfavorably because they aren't getting PT. Go ahead and discount these as well, but the linked deposition of Adam James and emails from Leach's staff members (you read those yet?) indicate James was entitled and lazy, didn't go to class, and slacked off in practice and then was upset he wasn't starting. The deposition indicates he exaggerated his claims and he even stormed out of Riley's office and broke part of the door (the push handle) when held accountable for his poor performance. He may have very well quit the program if his daddy hadn't stepped in. So, quite possibly, the reserve player's testimony is as much or more unreliable than that of a starter since he very likely has an axe to grind with the coaching staff.

So you don't like the guy. Cool, no reason why you have to. I don't think there's enough there to say he's as awful as you have him pegged.

[RiverDog]

River,

I'm asking sincerely because it sounds like you have him pegged to a T; either you were there on a regular basis, or you have some very impressive telepathic abilities we aren't aware of. You're extrapolating the very narrow picture Mike Leach presents to the press to his daily behavior for his entire 22-year head coaching career. Wondering and having him dead to rights on it are two very different things. That's the point of the questions is to point out that fallacy. I'm taking you to task because you are making a weak argument. You're now conceding that maybe he didn't, but you've pretty much made up your mind that he did.

Do you seriously think that I have Leach pegged to a 'T', enough so that you would genuinely assume that I was close enough to the situation to have attended team meetings or that I have superhuman telepathic abilities? I don't believe that for a second. You're just being a smart ass, and I'd appreciate it if you'd cease with this nonsense. All I'm doing is expressing an opinion about his known behavior. I'm not psychoanalyzing the man.

I'm not sure what it is that I'm conceding. We know that Leach verbally abused his players in public via his recorded press conferences, and it's a completely rational, viable assumption that he did it at least to some degree away from the cameras and microphones. That's all I've been saying, and I've been saying it from the get-go. My story hasn't changed in the least. The only thing that has changed is the knowledge that he didn't have any recorded incidents of verbal abuse at MSU as he did at TTU and WSU, something that I wasn't aware of, and yes, it does change my opinion of him somewhat.

So, the testimonies of former players (and fellow coaches/staff if you would take the time to read emails in the links I provided) don't move the needle at all, but what you've seen from Mike Leach in the press is enough to close the book on him. You can't offer any opposing first-hand accounts and one of your primary "sources" for your disdain of the man can't be verified. Yes, he said what he said, but trotting players out to apologize to the press is a dubious claim until proven otherwise.

If you don't believe my claim about Leach giving instructions to his players to apologize for their performance, then fine. I'm not asking you to believe me. All I'm doing is explaining my rationale for feeling the way I do. Besides, that incident is just one piece of several to the puzzle.

Sure, it's believable that Leach could have been verbally abusing players; it's also possible Nick Saban is the biggest Richard Cranium college football players have ever had the pleasure of being coached by. It would be believable about any of them. As for reserve players, it's also believable they would view the coaches and staff unfavorably because they aren't getting PT. Go ahead and discount these as well, but the linked deposition of Adam James and emails from Leach's staff members (you read those yet?) indicate James was entitled and lazy, didn't go to class, and slacked off in practice and then was upset he wasn't starting. The deposition indicates he exaggerated his claims and he even stormed out of Riley's office and broke part of the door (the push handle) when held accountable for his poor performance. He may have very well quit the program if his daddy hadn't stepped in. So, quite possibly, the reserve player's testimony is as much or more unreliable than that of a starter since he very likely has an axe to grind with the coaching staff.

So you don't like the guy. Cool, no reason why you have to. I don't think there's enough there to say he's as awful as you have him pegged.

Once again, I don't necessarily believe or disbelieve every aspect of the story about Adam James and Leach's treatment of him. But it is another bit of information that combined with his recorded behavior at press conferences, we can use to piece together a larger picture. Is it a completely accurate picture? Probably not. However, there's enough information available that if I'm a parent of a son or daughter that considering entering Leach's program, it would create enough doubt in my mind to cause me to have some serious reservations.

Now that I'm armed with the information that Leach had no such recorded incidents while at MSU, it might cause me to reconsider. But I'd damn sure want some sort of reassurance from the university that the type of behavior we witnessed in press conferences at TTU and WSU wouldn't be tolerated, in press conferences or otherwise.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

You seem pretty sure of yourself that his conduct in front of the press carries over to his overall coaching methods. You stated that's not how you run a railroad, which is why I take it you think it runs through everything he does. That's what I'm calling into question. Call it being a smart ass if you like, but those questions were meant to put a stamp on the fact that you, I, and everyone else not on his teams don't know what goes on every day. What I believe you conceded is that in a later response you acknowledged that perhaps he didn't, but your guess was that it was as bad or worse. You hadn't stated that was a consideration until then.

You even mentioned at the start of this thread that the details of the Adam James incident are open to debate, and then you slam the door on both James' deposition with Leach's attorney as well as testimonies from two of Leach's former players and 2 or 3 members of his coaching staff that call into question just how that went down. And then, while calling starting players testimony pointless, you bring up a reserve players testimony as if it would have more value when I made good case for why a reserve player could easily be unreliable and biased (Adam James is a prime example). Still haven't heard anything from you that you even read the information I linked in the other thread. If you haven't, that's incredibly frustrating. It comes across as you only considering incidents that support your already firm opinion of the man. So, yeah, I'm going to jab at you about hanging onto an unverifiable incident (oline apology) and an incomplete understanding of another incident (Adam James). If you still want to use the Adam James incident, fine, but I believe you'd be better served if you read the deposition. You keep saying it's an incomplete picture; complete it a little more by reading that.

I'm not frustrated you hold your opinion; I'm frustrated because I believe your argument is incomplete and you're tossing aside or ignoring anything that conflicts with where you stand.

[RiverDog]

You seem pretty sure of yourself that his conduct in front of the press carries over to his overall coaching methods. You stated that's not how you run a railroad, which is why I take it you think it runs through everything he does. That's what I'm calling into question. Call it being a smart ass if you like, but those questions were meant to put a stamp on the fact that you, I, and everyone else not on his teams don't know what goes on every day. What I believe you conceded is that in a later response you acknowledged that perhaps he didn't, but your guess was that it was as bad or worse. You hadn't stated that was a consideration until then.

I made the "not a good way to run a railroad" statement so as to indicate that no matter what business you are in, it is never a good idea to chastise your subordinates in public. It was not meant to be taken as you are interpreting it, that I know how he runs his entire team. And I still don't know exactly what it is that you believe that I conceded. As I said, the only thing I have conceded is that I was unaware that there were recordings of Leach denigrating his players in post-game press conferences at MSU as there is with his tenures at TTU and WSU, which really isn't a concession as much as it is new information that was previously unknown to me.

You even mentioned at the start of this thread that the details of the Adam James incident are open to debate, and then you slam the door on both James' deposition with Leach's attorney as well as testimonies from two of Leach's former players and 2 or 3 members of his coaching staff that call into question just how that went down. And then, while calling starting players testimony pointless, you bring up a reserve players testimony as if it would have more value when I made good case for why a reserve player could easily be unreliable and biased (Adam James is a prime example). Still haven't heard anything from you that you even read the information I linked in the other thread. If you haven't, that's incredibly frustrating. It comes across as you only considering incidents that support your already firm opinion of the man. So, yeah, I'm going to jab at you about hanging onto an unverifiable incident (oline apology) and an incomplete understanding of another incident (Adam James). If you still want to use the Adam James incident, fine, but I believe you'd be better served if you read the deposition. You keep saying it's an incomplete picture; complete it a little more by reading that.

I'm not frustrated you hold your opinion; I'm frustrated because I believe your argument is incomplete and you're tossing aside or ignoring anything that conflicts with where you stand.

Look, even if I give you the Adam James incident and pretend it didn't happen, there still is enough known, undisputed information for me to call into question Leach's tactics. What I know he said in his press conferences is more than enough, ie using terms like "fat", "lazy", "little fat girl friends", and so on directed not only at his players, but specific groups of his players, for me to question his treatment of his players, so there's really no point in going through all the details of the James incident. So in that sense, yes, unless you can prove to me that Leach didn't make those comments about his players in the news conferences, my mind is made up.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Leach's tirades are a matter of record, and it makes you wonder if he was that bold and unrestrained in in his press conferences, what was he like when it was just him and his players and coaches? Or did he just do it for the cameras, that he was showboating just to get attention, and that behind the curtain, he was as gentle as a Teddy bear, and that he ran his team like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood? My guess is that he was just as bad, if not worse, than what he was in public, that wasn't all just for show. But do I know that for sure? Of course, not.

This statement didn't come until late in your argument where you state that it's possible Leach's conduct in front of the press doesn't necessarily translate to his everyday coaching and relationship with his players. Perhaps not a concession, but it took a while to get here. I didn't want to infer or assume.

Look, even if I give you the Adam James incident and pretend it didn't happen, there still is enough known, undisputed information for me to call into question Leach's tactics. What I know he said in his press conferences is more than enough, ie using terms like "fat", "lazy", "little fat girl friends", and so on directed not only at his players, but specific groups of his players, for me to question his treatment of his players, so there's really no point in going through all the details of the James incident. So in that sense, yes, unless you can prove to me that Leach didn't make those comments about his players in the news conferences, my mind is made up.

I don't get your stance in the bolded part; you're not availing yourself to these documents at all when they majorly call into question the account of that specific event in the media, and, therefore, shed a different light on the perception of what happened and Leach's relationship with his players. It's big blind spot in your argument if you won't at least read them. And he said what he said in his pressers; I can't and won't deny that. If that's enough for you in light of the additional information, then so be it.

I'm going to end my rebuttals here. I don't know why this one charged me up so much. Perhaps because I liked him as our head coach, and I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[RiverDog]

This statement didn't come until late in your argument where you state that it's possible Leach's conduct in front of the press doesn't necessarily translate to his everyday coaching and relationship with his players. Perhaps not a concession, but it took a while to get here. I didn't want to infer or assume.

Damn right that's not a confession! I never once said or even implied that Leach's conduct was an everyday affair. Although I did say that if he did it in front of the cameras, that it makes you wonder how he behaved when they weren't around, that's a lot different than saying he regularly abused players.

Look, even if I give you the Adam James incident and pretend it didn't happen, there still is enough known, undisputed information for me to call into question Leach's tactics. What I know he said in his press conferences is more than enough, ie using terms like "fat", "lazy", "little fat girl friends", and so on directed not only at his players, but specific groups of his players, for me to question his treatment of his players, so there's really no point in going through all the details of the James incident. So in that sense, yes, unless you can prove to me that Leach didn't make those comments about his players in the news conferences, my mind is made up.

I don't get your stance in the bolded part; you're not availing yourself to these documents at all when they majorly call into question the account of that specific event in the media, and, therefore, shed a different light on the perception of what happened and Leach's relationship with his players. It's big blind spot in your argument if you won't at least read them. And he said what he said in his pressers; I can't and won't deny that. If that's enough for you in light of the additional information, then so be it.

I thought my reason for not delving into those documents was clear enough. I am not on a mission to find every thread of information available to justify my opinion. I simply do not approve of his tactics that were on display in those news conferences, at least up until the time he left WSU.

I'm going to end my rebuttals here. I don't know why this one charged me up so much. Perhaps because I liked him as our head coach, and I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I can appreciate your defense of a person that you came to admire. All I'm asking you is to acknowledge my opinion of Leach as having at least a small amount of merit. As a parent, I certainly wouldn't like it very much if someone called my kid fat, dumb, lazy, etc, and I hope that you wouldn't, either.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

You specifically said you would guess the way he runs his team is as bad or worse than what he shows in public. That sounds like it was implied to me.

Your reason was stated clearly. You only care about the evidence that supports your position. Weak dude.

Your position has some merit; Leach 100% said what he said. If it were my child I’d have a much better idea of what really went on and could decide with him if continuing to play for Leach is the right thing to do. I’d give your opinion more weight if it considered more of the information that’s available.

[RiverDog]

You specifically said you would guess the way he runs his team is as bad or worse than what he shows in public. That sounds like it was implied to me.

Your reason was stated clearly. You only care about the evidence that supports your position. Weak dude.

Your position has some merit; Leach 100% said what he said. If it were my child I’d have a much better idea of what really went on and could decide with him if continuing to play for Leach is the right thing to do. I’d give your opinion more weight if it considered more of the information that’s available.

You like to pick apart words that I say looking for some sort of a contradiction or inconsistency to throw in my face? Well, here's a little of the pot calling the kettle black for you to think about:

I'm going to end my rebuttals here.

Weak, Dude!

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I didn’t pick apart a thing. It’s right there in plain text. You’re the one who won’t acknowledge it. And you’re being incredibly dismissive for someone who purports himself to be open minded.

[RiverDog]

I didn’t pick apart a thing. It’s right there in plain text. You’re the one who won’t acknowledge it. And you’re being incredibly dismissive for someone who purports himself to be open minded.

I'm still waiting for that last rebuttal that you promised.

Leave it alone, Dude. We've reached a stalemate.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

That’s good. I was just waiting for you to not offer a last one either. I am happy to call it quits right along with you.