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Our Offensive Line has been marked as the "worse" predicted O-line in the NFL for entering 2022? PFF is a respected "outside" evaluator and does a fair value of applying comparative tools for ratings that reflect accomplished skills demonstrated on the field. I subscribed to them to get a fair idea of what our draft outlook for 2022 was. I don't view them (PFF) as sage predictors for what the future of a position holds.

I think O-line coach Andy Dickerson and our Offensice Coordinator Shane Waldron got the input from the Draft and Free Agency that they needed to "fit" the line alignment and offensive schemes to hit the ground running. Skills are strengthened with solid coaching and toward the end of 2021 season our O-line was playing with a bit of swag. Evaluators give ratings for the entire season...and our O-line stumbled a lot last year.

The center position is 2nd most important next to the Left Tackle. A good center communicates "what he sees" as the huddle breaks and the line quickly sets "forcing" the defense to "reveal" their intentions. The quicker the huddle breaks and the line sets...the more time is afforded for the QB to "read" what the Defense is presenting against what play has been called. If Austin stays healthy we start the 2022 season (first 5 games) better than the 2021 start with smoother communication and ...building line cohesion...not destroying it.
Our guards represent our youthful(D-Lew) experience(G-Jack)... although I suspect Gabe Jackson will be traded after 2022 when Damien Lewis "contract talks" gain any ground (Lewis is signed thru 2023 becoming a UFA in 2024). I suspect Phil Haynes and a drafted 2023 interior (C/G) lineman to continue with the O-line improvement for the 2023 season.
Our O-line depth pieces are limited...Jake Curhan/Stone Forsythe/Phil Haynes/Shemarious Gilmore...and possibly Dakoda Shepley at center.


So what have we got? :

Left Tackle Charles Cross Rookie 6'5" 311 lbs 21 yrs old
Fan Bite:
Being counted on to become our seasoned battle tested LT of the future Charles has many of the traits you'd expect from a first rd draft selection...and hopefully softens the loss of Duane Brown.


Left Guard Damien Lewis 3rd Yr 6'2" 327 lbs 25 yrs old (1.3 million cap hit free agent 2024)

Fan Bite:
Stud run blocking guard who "suffered" thru the move to LG where he under performed...especially in pass pro.


Center Austin Blythe 7 yr vet 6'2" 298 lbs 30 yrs old (4 million cap hit free agent 2023)

Fan Bite:
Smaller athletic center with good hand skills and experienced in type of offensive alignment/playbook of Shane Waldron. He and Gabe Jackson offer a stable dose of experience.


Right Guard Gabe Jackson 9 yr vet 6'3" 335 lbs 31 yrs old(9 million cap hit free agent 2024)

Fan Bite:
Steady vet in both pass pro and run blocking Gabe will be a big help to whoever lines up next to him at RT.


Right Tackle Abe Lucas Rookie 6'6" 322 lbs 23 yrs old

Fan Bite:
Some rumors of sliding Abe inside to RG if Jake Curhan was to win the RT job during camp/pre season. Abe will probably start with a good camp (beginning in August) showing. Starting two rookie tackles has been rarely done and will no doubt have some early rough spells.


Outlook: The Offensive Line will be almost an equal determiner (along with the eventual QB) to how well we "peak" in 2022. Both our RB are very capable of breaking tackles and maintaining ball security (Penny has one fumble from his entire limited years of play)...but a little line help can turn a "crease" into an explosive play. Either Geno or Drew should function well in our up tempo offense...which should in turn limit the amount of time our O-line has to sustain their blocks in pass pro.

If they slide Lucas to G, it will be the first step in ruining another promising Tackles’ career.
We have a history of doing that here so it’s a 50/50 proposition at this point.
What if Cross gets beat out and they start Forsythe? Cross is too small for G so he would just sit, I suppose.

Either way, we won’t really know until after the 2023 season how well this class will do long term but this year
is going to be tough on QBs and RBs with only 2 years experience in total at the T positions.

I'm not sure what the "fan bite" opinion classification is supposed to mean. It has the sound of sniping at some of the comments and opinions being made by other posters in this forum. Conventional wisdom might be a more appropriate term.

One of the factors about the ultimate success or failure of our running game that you didn't mention is our RB's health. It's a huge question mark with Penny. As far as Walker goes, I wouldn't count on him contributing a whole heck of a lot, at least not initially. IMO we'll see a lot of Travis Homer and DJ Dallas, especially on 3rd downs, in the first half of the season.

The OL is a huge mystery, and I can understand why the pundits ranked us as they did. Up tempo might help, but we have to be able to move the sticks so we're not putting our defense on the field so much. I don't want to see us end up as a Chip Kelly style team.

I don't know if I think Geno or Lock will function well in an up tempo offense. I think Pete will want to limit the amount we throw with Geno and Lock to limit turnovers. Both Geno and Lock are turnover machines if asked to throw that much. If the O-line doesn't pass block well out of the gate, they will be under near constant pressure. Not sure how mobile Geno and Lock are to make plays under pressure.

I figure D-coordinators are going to want to test Cross early and often to see if he can handle the rush. Geno and Lock along with Austin will be expected to make adjustments to deal with the heavy pass rush coming at Cross and Lucas (if he starts on the right). D-coordinators really like to test young tackles and backup QBs with rushes and coverage systems to confuse them. It was three games and a quarter last year Geno had to deal with the game planning for him and he had a veteran LT. Now they'll focus on game planning for Geno and taking advantage of rookie tackles.

RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure what the "fan bite" opinion classification is supposed to mean. It has the sound of sniping at some of the comments and opinions being made by other posters in this forum. Conventional wisdom might be a more appropriate term.

It has nothing to do with "sniping"...its a spin on what a sound bite is (a brief snippet of recorded speech)...except a brief snippet of a fan's (mine) input is why I call it a fan bite...maybe if I had misspelled it as a fan byte...you would have gotten the drift.

Fan Bite seemed appropriate enough. Basically a summary of some of what fans have been thinking.

RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure what the "fan bite" opinion classification is supposed to mean. It has the sound of sniping at some of the comments and opinions being made by other posters in this forum. Conventional wisdom might be a more appropriate term.

tarlhawk wrote:It has nothing to do with "sniping"...its a spin on what a sound bite is (a brief snippet of recorded speech)...except a brief snippet of a fan's (mine) input is why I call it a fan bite...maybe if I had misspelled it as a fan byte...you would have gotten the drift.

OK, I'll accept that. I was getting the sense that the use of the term 'fan' was interpreted as an amateur or cheerleader, ie 'fan boy.' Perhaps I'm getting a little overly sensitive in my old age. I know that you're not the trash talking type.

As I said, the offensive line is a huge mystery. It's a nearly complete makeover from a line that wasn't that hot to begin with. I don't think that any of us have the slightest idea as to how it will turn out. But there's almost certainly going to be a learning curve.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't know if I think Geno or Lock will function well in an up tempo offense. I think Pete will want to limit the amount we throw with Geno and Lock to limit turnovers. Both Geno and Lock are turnover machines if asked to throw that much. If the O-line doesn't pass block well out of the gate, they will be under near constant pressure. Not sure how mobile Geno and Lock are to make plays under pressure.

This post was about the O-line but the QB does play a major role in how the O-line functions...Geno and Drew do not share a Seahawk turnover fest (thats a checkered past played elsewhere)...as for Drew there's a reason Noah Fant was the guy he hooked up most with...Denver receivers don't compare to DK and Lockett (in 2020...his only full season...he was without his no.1 receiver (Courtland Sutton-injured) and the highly acclaimed rookie WR (Jeudy) caught only 52 passes out of 113 targets...dropping 10 passes and giving his QB a QB rating of 58.7 with 6 interceptions. Both Geno and Drew are able to hit an "open" receiver in stride and in a wide spread Waldron offense...someone will get open from amongst our bevy of highly skilled play makers...

You can prop up potential only so far...the Offense is a newly assembled "test" model with a lot of chrome...when the team as a whole comes together...very unlikely out of the gate...we have the "sporty" gears to show quick improvement. The best draft picks flounder on the "wrong" team without good coaching...we have had decent drafts in the past 3 years...and now we will see what good coaching can accomplish to maximize their collective pool of talent. We are definitely under dogs with our tough schedule...but I don't see us as "dull". Instilling CONFIDENCE can transform an entire team's mindset. We may lose often but I doubt our team will be taken for granted as an "easy mark"...its a climb to go from "able to win on a given Sunday" to the ability to win "every Sunday" Go Hawks

As for continuing our draft build in 2023 we can continue to improve our O-line and D-line with (2) first rd picks (TY-Denver)...(2) 2nd rd picks (TY-Den again)...our own 3rd rd pick...our own 4th rd pick...(2) 5th rd picks (TY-Pittsburg *Ahkello Witherspoon*)...and our own 6th rd pick. Another deep and bountiful draft.

tarlhawk wrote:This post was about the O-line but the QB does play a major role in how the O-line functions...Geno and Drew do not share a Seahawk turnover fest (thats a checkered past played elsewhere)...as for Drew there's a reason Noah Fant was the guy he hooked up most with...Denver receivers don't compare to DK and Lockett (in 2020...his only full season...he was without his no.1 receiver (Courtland Sutton-injured) and the highly acclaimed rookie WR (Jeudy) caught only 52 passes out of 113 targets...dropping 10 passes and giving his QB a QB rating of 58.7 with 6 interceptions. Both Geno and Drew are able to hit an "open" receiver in stride and in a wide spread Waldron offense...someone will get open from amongst our bevy of highly skilled play makers...

I don't think Pete will let them throw much. Contrary to hawktawk's take on Russell, it is Pete that likes the low volume passing game. He doesn't like turnovers. When Geno was playing, they kept the passing attempts low. I think Pete will do the same this year. Geno and Lock are not known for low turnovers when passing a lot. So I'm expecting Pete to rely heavily on the run game early with low volume passing unless the opponent runs the score up early and we have to try to throw. So that will test the O-line's ability to run block early and pass block in 3rd and long situations or when scoring.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't think Pete will let them throw much. Contrary to hawktawk's take on Russell, it is Pete that likes the low volume passing game. He doesn't like turnovers. When Geno was playing, they kept the passing attempts low. I think Pete will do the same this year. Geno and Lock are not known for low turnovers when passing a lot. So I'm expecting Pete to rely heavily on the run game early with low volume passing unless the opponent runs the score up early and we have to try to throw. So that will test the O-line's ability to run block early and pass block in 3rd and long situations or when scoring.

I have no idea about lock but Pete will let Geno throw . He did last year . It’s gonna b the okey doke from hell. Haymaker

Hawktawk wrote:I have no idea about lock but Pete will let Geno throw . He did last year . It’s gonna b the okey doke from hell. Haymaker

No, he did not. Geno had 17, 32, 22, and 24 attempts. That is a low volume passing game. He also kept the passing plays short. Geno had 131, 209, 167, and 195 yards for a total of 7.39 yards per attempt.

Pete did the same thing with Tarvaris and Hasselbeck. Pete does not like a high volume passing attack unless he has no choice. He even had Geno throw a low volume, high percentage passing attack that was focused on keeping turnovers low.

Pete likes the low volume passing attack and it has nothing to do with Russell. It is Pete's offensive philosophy he has practiced with every QB since he's been here. It's how he likes to do things.

You claim to know Pete Carroll, but show no sign of that at all. Pete has stated multiple times that he likes a play-action pass offense with the pass keying off the run. It is what he likes. Pete has metrics showing that the more you put the ball in the air, the higher chance of turnovers.

https://www.seahawks.com/news/pete-carroll-i-don-t-mind-being-different-when-it-comes-to-offensive-philosophy

I don't know why you don't understand the coach you keep defending. I know Carroll better than you apparently because I actually listen to Pete Carroll talk football and read a ton on him when he first arrived. Whereas you just keep thinking Pete Carroll kept a low volume passing attack because of Russell, which was not the case. Russell wanted a higher volume passing attack like his hero Drew Brees. he wants to throw more. Carroll doesn't like it. He likes a balanced attack with a strong run game. Always has, always will.

I even watched an interview with K.J. Wright recently where he was asked about Russell and Pete. KJ said he loved Russell, but Pete and Russ were not seeing eye to eye. He thought the trade was good because Pete can go back to his philosophy of a low volume, run oriented offense and Russell can take his shot in Denver with a higher volume passing attack like his hero Drew Brees does. Time will tell if Russ can adapt to a high volume passing attack and if his new HC Nathaniel Hackett will tolerate higher turnovers for more yards and TDs which Pete would not.

That was the gist of why Pete traded Russell. Pete wants things his way. Russ wants them his way. Pete won the argument. We have yet to see if the Seahawks HC made the right decision.

No we don't, I dont have to playout the charade, and see the end of Pete Carroll. Kind of like playing Gary Kasparov a rook down, just no way you win.

1. Aaron Rodgers, 2005-22 213 7,118 4,651 65.3 55,360 93 449 4.83 104.5
2. Patrick Mahomes, 2017-22 63 2,345 1,550 66.1 18,991 37 151 4.08 105.8
3. Russell Wilson, 2012-22 158 4,735 3,079 65.0 37,059 87 292 3.36 101.8
4. Tom Brady, 2000-22 318 11,317 7,263 64.2 84,520 203 624 3.07 97.6

Obtway, Russ's numbers, numbers dont lie!

Aseahawkfan wrote:[

quote="Hawktawk"]I have no idea about lock but Pete will let Geno throw . He did last year . It’s gonna b the okey doke from hell. Haymaker

No, he did not. Geno had 17, 32, 22, and 24 attempts. That is a low volume passing game. He also kept the passing plays short. Geno had 131, 209, 167, and 195 yards for a total of 7.39 yards per attempt.

Pete did the same thing with Tarvaris and Hasselbeck. Pete does not like a high volume passing attack unless he has no choice. He even had Geno throw a low volume, high percentage passing attack that was focused on keeping turnovers low.

Pete likes the low volume passing attack and it has nothing to do with Russell. It is Pete's offensive philosophy he has practiced with every QB since he's been here. It's how he likes to do things.

You claim to know Pete Carroll, but show no sign of that at all. Pete has stated multiple times that he likes a play-action pass offense with the pass keying off the run. It is what he likes. Pete has metrics showing that the more you put the ball in the air, the higher chance of turnovers.

https://www.seahawks.com/news/pete-carroll-i-don-t-mind-being-different-when-it-comes-to-offensive-philosophy

I don't know why you don't understand the coach you keep defending. I know Carroll better than you apparently because I actually listen to Pete Carroll talk football and read a ton on him when he first arrived. Whereas you just keep thinking Pete Carroll kept a low volume passing attack because of Russell, which was not the case. Russell wanted a higher volume passing attack like his hero Drew Brees. he wants to throw more. Carroll doesn't like it. He likes a balanced attack with a strong run game. Always has, always will.

I even watched an interview with K.J. Wright recently where he was asked about Russell and Pete. KJ said he loved Russell, but Pete and Russ were not seeing eye to eye. He thought the trade was good because Pete can go back to his philosophy of a low volume, run oriented offense and Russell can take his shot in Denver with a higher volume passing attack like his hero Drew Brees does. Time will tell if Russ can adapt to a high volume passing attack and if his new HC Nathaniel Hackett will tolerate higher turnovers for more yards and TDs which Pete would not.

That was the gist of why Pete traded Russell. Pete wants things his way. Russ wants them his way. Pete won the argument. We have yet to see if the Seahawks HC made the right decision.[/quote]

When you show me where I’ve said Pete runs a wide open offense I’ll listen to you insult me dude . Geno threw for 131 yards and put up 10 points on the rams in a quarter , right off the bench 98 yards and a stick to Dk. He completed over 70% in 2 of 3 games despite playing 3 really good defenses and completed 80% vs his only bad team . In his first start in 5 years he was sacked 5 times , hit hard , laid out a few times , 3 tipped passes and still 72% completion and led scoring drives 4 of our last 5 possessions . Geno might be harder to defend these days as he knows there’s a middle of the field . Point being Geno functioned quite well despite no protection , 13 sacks , 1 every quarter and still 102 passer rating , 700 yards , 68.5 comp , no picks in 3 starts and only one turnover despite all the sacks and hits and 17-21 targeting DK with 4 TDs .

I fail to see how our line will be worse . I think we will have a more consistent offense next year then last . Points ? More than the other guys . But it’s not like we can’t throw the ball without Gods gift to Seattle around .

Hawktawk wrote:No, he did not. Geno had 17, 32, 22, and 24 attempts. That is a low volume passing game. He also kept the passing plays short. Geno had 131, 209, 167, and 195 yards for a total of 7.39 yards per attempt.

Pete did the same thing with Tarvaris and Hasselbeck. Pete does not like a high volume passing attack unless he has no choice. He even had Geno throw a low volume, high percentage passing attack that was focused on keeping turnovers low.

Pete likes the low volume passing attack and it has nothing to do with Russell. It is Pete's offensive philosophy he has practiced with every QB since he's been here. It's how he likes to do things.

You claim to know Pete Carroll, but show no sign of that at all. Pete has stated multiple times that he likes a play-action pass offense with the pass keying off the run. It is what he likes. Pete has metrics showing that the more you put the ball in the air, the higher chance of turnovers.

https://www.seahawks.com/news/pete-carroll-i-don-t-mind-being-different-when-it-comes-to-offensive-philosophy

I don't know why you don't understand the coach you keep defending. I know Carroll better than you apparently because I actually listen to Pete Carroll talk football and read a ton on him when he first arrived. Whereas you just keep thinking Pete Carroll kept a low volume passing attack because of Russell, which was not the case. Russell wanted a higher volume passing attack like his hero Drew Brees. he wants to throw more. Carroll doesn't like it. He likes a balanced attack with a strong run game. Always has, always will.

I even watched an interview with K.J. Wright recently where he was asked about Russell and Pete. KJ said he loved Russell, but Pete and Russ were not seeing eye to eye. He thought the trade was good because Pete can go back to his philosophy of a low volume, run oriented offense and Russell can take his shot in Denver with a higher volume passing attack like his hero Drew Brees does. Time will tell if Russ can adapt to a high volume passing attack and if his new HC Nathaniel Hackett will tolerate higher turnovers for more yards and TDs which Pete would not.

That was the gist of why Pete traded Russell. Pete wants things his way. Russ wants them his way. Pete won the argument. We have yet to see if the Seahawks HC made the right decision.

When you show me where I’ve said Pete runs a wide open offense I’ll listen to you insult me dude . Geno threw for 131 yards and put up 10 points on the rams in a quarter , right off the bench 98 yards and a stick to Dk. He completed over 70% in 2 of 3 games despite playing 3 really good defenses and completed 80% vs his only bad team . In his first start in 5 years he was sacked 5 times , hit hard , laid out a few times , 3 tipped passes and still 72% completion and led scoring drives 4 of our last 5 possessions . Geno might be harder to defend these days as he knows there’s a middle of the field . Point being Geno functioned quite well despite no protection , 13 sacks , 1 every quarter and still 102 passer rating , 700 yards , 68.5 comp , no picks in 3 starts and only one turnover despite all the sacks and hits and 17-21 targeting DK with 4 TDs .

I fail to see how our line will be worse . I think we will have a more consistent offense next year then last . Points ? More than the other guys . But it’s not like we can’t throw the ball without Gods gift to Seattle around .

Stop obsessing over Russell and look at this team like it really is, then you'll see what we're all talking about.

Lots of question marks, young talent, and inexperience with promise and some great draft capital next year to keep building a better team.

Stop wasting your time focusing on Russ. Spend more time focusing on who is currently on the team and realize this looks exactly like Pete and John when they first arrived. That's where we're at. Some talent, but we're in a transition period as Pete builds using his Win Forever competition method.

Concerning the offensive line, I have mixed feelings about Jackson. I would like to see one of the younger guys beat him out, but at the same time, he will be the most experienced and could be helpful to a young RT. Also, because of the rookie tackles, could we see the exceedingly rare situation of platooning tackles? We now have 4 young OTs with promise, and while it is likely that the rookies will eventually prevail, this season could feature a rotation.

Center will be interesting to watch, and I am hopeful that it will be better than what we have had recently. To me it has felt as though we were relying on guards to play out of position at center, and now we are going with a real center, and with that perhaps a better grasp of line calls and recognizing defenses. The position does not require a mauler, but needs a technician, and if he is a mauler/technician, he's all-pro. I'll take a technician.

Old but Slow wrote:Concerning the offensive line, I have mixed feelings about Jackson. I would like to see one of the younger guys beat him out, but at the same time, he will be the most experienced and could be helpful to a young RT. Also, because of the rookie tackles, could we see the exceedingly rare situation of platooning tackles? We now have 4 young OTs with promise, and while it is likely that the rookies will eventually prevail, this season could feature a rotation.

Center will be interesting to watch, and I am hopeful that it will be better than what we have had recently. To me it has felt as though we were relying on guards to play out of position at center, and now we are going with a real center, and with that perhaps a better grasp of line calls and recognizing defenses. The position does not require a mauler, but needs a technician, and if he is a mauler/technician, he's all-pro. I'll take a technician.

Center has been an overlooked or perhaps an unappreciated position during most of this regime. We’ve never
really recovered from the Unger trade and it seems that the feeling is that any interior lineman can make do.
We’ve had Guards and Tackles play there but never drafted a true Center of consequence and until now not added one via FA. Certainly not a draft priority by how many they’ve passed by over the years.
Considering all the turnover on the OL and never acquiring an anchor in the middle it suggests they struggle at
building an Offensive Line that is any good. We’ve had OL coaches who have been effective in other organizations
so it seems we struggle identifying talent.

NorthHawk wrote:Center has been an overlooked or perhaps an unappreciated position during most of this regime. We’ve never
really recovered from the Unger trade and it seems that the feeling is that any interior lineman can make do.
We’ve had Guards and Tackles play there but never drafted a true Center of consequence and until now not added one via FA. Certainly not a draft priority by how many they’ve passed by over the years.
Considering all the turnover on the OL and never acquiring an anchor in the middle it suggests they struggle at
building an Offensive Line that is any good. We’ve had OL coaches who have been effective in other organizations
so it seems we struggle identifying talent.

I could not prove this specifically with Pete, but I have read the O-line is an over-rated position group and it is better to have a good QB and RB with an adequate line. I believe Pete follows the metrics to show this to be the case. He would rather spend money and keep talent on the defense and a the skill positions on offense than spend a ton on O-line.

I do think a good center is pretty valuable as it helps the QB set the line and make the reads. But Pete doesn't seem to think it's that important a position or we have scouts that don't scout O-line very well. Hopefully our scouts hit some homeruns on this year tackles. Though it is really weird we didn't draft run blocking tackles. But Pete always has had the mindset that he can take talent and teach them anything he wants them to do.

If that is in fact Pete’s viewpoint then we will never have a good Offense and will struggle with key plays
unless he gets lucky and find another perennial Pro Bowl QB who can overcome the bad line in front.
Regardless of metrics, the OL is still the engine of the Offense and without good play, offensive consistency can’t
be achieved for the long term. This means bad returns on short yardage and too many three and outs putting more
stress on the Defense.

But looking back it does make some sense as for years we’ve discussed the inability of the Offense to move the ball,
too many three and outs resulting in lost games because of it. And this was when our Defense was at the top of its game.

There is little doubt that Pete has historically under valued the offensive line and it was one of the major reasons why I wanted to see his head on a platter at the end of this season, but by using a #1 and a #3 this past draft, I'm optimistic that he may have had a change in heart.

I think 2021 was our highest offensive production ever . It was Wilson’s most prolific year for sure . When the QB throws 40 TDs it isn’t just a ball control offense . But then they fired Schottie so whatever . Pete’s offenses are built around a pounding run game and efficient pass attack but also taking some deep shots which suits Russ well with his superior deep ball off play action. But the inconsistent offense seems to have existed the whole era . Even in 49 we couldn’t convert a 3rd most of the first half including lynch getting stuffed twice which may have led in part to a decision that shall live in infamy . I don’t know the problem . Will it get better ? Geno was more of a chain mover but teams will gather film on him and try to take away what he likes to do assuming he starts . They have been doing it to Russ more all the time as well with cover 4 trying to limit deep balls . So let’s see what the offense looks like in reality. Can’t wait for camp !

Hawktawk wrote:I think 2021 was our highest offensive production ever . It was Wilson’s most prolific year for sure.

This is simply not true. In 2021, we averaged 324 ypg total offense, which ranked us 20th in the league. In the previous season, in 2020, we averaged 370 ypg total offense, good enough for 17th. In 2019, we averaged 374 ypg, 8th in the league. But pick whatever category you like, 2021 was not anywhere close to our highest offensive production season.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/teamst ... up=O&conf=

Same story with Russell's production. His highest QB rating was in 2018 at 110.9. In 2021, he posted a 103.1 rate, his 5th highest rate of his career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... lsRu00.htm

I'm not sure how you're coming away with these impressions of yours, but our 7-11 record alone, contrasted with winning seasons in every year since 2011, would tell most people that 2021 was not a very good year for our offense.

RiverDog wrote:There is little doubt that Pete has historically under valued the offensive line and it was one of the major reasons why I wanted to see his head on a platter at the end of this season, but by using a #1 and a #3 this past draft, I'm optimistic that he may have had a change in heart.

We’ve spent lots of resources on OL in the past with poor results (post Okung) including Carpenter, Britt, and Ifedi.
It seems they either can’t identify NFL talent or they don’t know how or have the required patience to develop them.
I said earlier if we see Lucas moved to Guard it will be the first step in ruining his career like they did Ifedi’s. Maybe
they will,platoon those positions as Forsythe and Curhan are inexperienced as well. That might help ease the struggles
of them learning how to play at this level as they mature. But does Pete have that patience? He hasn’t shown it
in the past.

RiverDog wrote:There is little doubt that Pete has historically under valued the offensive line and it was one of the major reasons why I wanted to see his head on a platter at the end of this season, but by using a #1 and a #3 this past draft, I'm optimistic that he may have had a change in heart.

NorthHawk wrote:We’ve spent lots of resources on OL in the past with poor results (post Okung) including Carpenter, Britt, and Ifedi.
It seems they either can’t identify NFL talent or they don’t know how or have the required patience to develop them.
I said earlier if we see Lucas moved to Guard it will be the first step in ruining his career like they did Ifedi’s. Maybe
they will,platoon those positions as Forsythe and Curhan are inexperienced as well. That might help ease the struggles
of them learning how to play at this level as they mature. But does Pete have that patience? He hasn’t shown it
in the past.

It's not just about the resources we used, it's the players we've taken with those resources. James Carpenter was a clear reach. Even his college coach, Nick Saban, who's seen his fair share of NFL quality tackles, was surprised that Carpenter was taken as high as he was. Same deal with Ifedi and Britt. They were taken above where most experts felt they were ranked. Tom Cable operated under the philosophy that he wanted linemen that were capable of playing multiple positions, and IMO it hurt the overall quality of the players we drafted. That wasn't the case this year, at least with Cross, who was rated amongst the top at his position. Heck, C-bob picked him, so he must have been a high quality prospect worthy of a top 10 pick.

Cross will have an uphill battle to become a solid starter in my opinion. Even though the “Air Raid” Offense has been around
for some time with a lot of success there aren’t many if any OTs that have become starters. They’ve just had too much ground
to make up to become a solid player and most teams don’t give them that time. Pete hasn’t shown any willingness to let a
player develop on the OL so Cross will really have to show signs of improvement quickly. He’s young and seems to be a smart kid,
but it’s stacked against him at the moment.

I think 2021 was our highest offensive production ever . It was Wilson’s most prolific year for sure.[/quote]

This is simply not true. In 2021, we averaged 324 ypg total offense, which ranked us 20th in the league. In the previous season, in 2020, we averaged 370 ypg total offense, good enough for 17th. In 2019, we averaged 374 ypg, 8th in the league. But pick whatever category you like, 2021 was not anywhere close to our highest offensive production season.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/teamst ... up=O&conf=

Same story with Russell's production. His highest QB rating was in 2018 at 110.9. In 2021, he posted a 103.1 rate, his 5th highest rate of his career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... lsRu00.htm

I'm not sure how you're coming away with these impressions of yours, but our 7-11 record alone, contrasted with winning seasons in every year since 2011, would tell most people that 2021 was not a very good year for our offense.[/quote]
I meant 2020 but I’m off on total offense . It was easily the most TD passes by Russ . I’d be curious how we stacked up in scoring offense because that’s the bottom line . Nobody thought 21 was a good year for anyone except Penny and Geno . Misprint

Hawktawk wrote:I think 2021 was our highest offensive production ever . It was Wilson’s most prolific year for sure.

RiverDog wrote:This is simply not true. In 2021, we averaged 324 ypg total offense, which ranked us 20th in the league. In the previous season, in 2020, we averaged 370 ypg total offense, good enough for 17th. In 2019, we averaged 374 ypg, 8th in the league. But pick whatever category you like, 2021 was not anywhere close to our highest offensive production season.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/teamst ... up=O&conf=

Same story with Russell's production. His highest QB rating was in 2018 at 110.9. In 2021, he posted a 103.1 rate, his 5th highest rate of his career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... lsRu00.htm

I'm not sure how you're coming away with these impressions of yours, but our 7-11 record alone, contrasted with winning seasons in every year since 2011, would tell most people that 2021 was not a very good year for our offense.

Hawktawk wrote:I meant 2020 but I’m off on total offense . It was easily the most TD passes by Russ . I’d be curious how we stacked up in scoring offense because that’s the bottom line . Nobody thought 21 was a good year for anyone except Penny and Geno . Misprint

Thanks for correcting your misprint.

However, referencing the link above, in 2020, we scored 28.7ppg, which ranked 8th in the league. In 2019, we averaged 25.3, (9th), 2018 25.3 (9th), and in 2017 we scored 26.8 (8th). So relative to the rest of the league, we were very consistent in scoring, finishing 8th or 9th for four straight years. 2020 wasn't much different. It was a few points higher than our recent averages, but the entire league experienced a surge in scoring that season.

You are correct that 2020 was a career high in TD passes for Russell (40), but it wasn't a huge jump from his second best (35 in 2018), especially when you factor in the 17 game schedule that began that season as in 2020, he had 2.35 TD's per game, 2.19 per game in 2018. His TD percentage (# of TD's per attempt) was actually higher in 2018 than it was in 2020.

Once again, I think your impression is being influenced by this bias you've developed recently.

NorthHawk wrote:Cross will have an uphill battle to become a solid starter in my opinion. Even though the “Air Raid” Offense has been around
for some time with a lot of success there aren’t many if any OTs that have become starters. They’ve just had too much ground
to make up to become a solid player and most teams don’t give them that time. Pete hasn’t shown any willingness to let a
player develop on the OL so Cross will really have to show signs of improvement quickly. He’s young and seems to be a smart kid,
but it’s stacked against him at the moment.

The fact that Cross is a top 10 pick is going to influence the decision as to who starts at LT. IMO the job is his to lose.

RiverDog wrote:There is little doubt that Pete has historically under valued the offensive line and it was one of the major reasons why I wanted to see his head on a platter at the end of this season, but by using a #1 and a #3 this past draft, I'm optimistic that he may have had a change in heart.

Does anyone have metrics showing offensive line leads to more wins and Super Bowls? In a league with a salary cap, you have to pick where you save money. Pete and I think many other teams have chosen to save money on the O-line position group. If you want to have a strong defense, you have to pay for that. If you want a great QB, you have to pay really insane money. Great receivers are costing a lot now. So how do you expect a team to pay for a high quality O-line when so many other positions seem to be of higher value and cost a lot of money?

Bad OL play costs games, We’ve seen that frequently the last decade when we couldn’t get a first down to extend
drives an run out the clock.
OLines don’t have to be expensive, they just have to play well and we’ve not seen that much here of late.
I think it’s an inability to evaluate talent and prioritize it as a need after seeing it not get better over the years.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Does anyone have metrics showing offensive line leads to more wins and Super Bowls? In a league with a salary cap, you have to pick where you save money. Pete and I think many other teams have chosen to save money on the O-line position group. If you want to have a strong defense, you have to pay for that. If you want a great QB, you have to pay really insane money. Great receivers are costing a lot now. So how do you expect a team to pay for a high quality O-line when so many other positions seem to be of higher value and cost a lot of money?

OL performance is hard to quantify, but if I had a point to prove, I'd start with PFF's offensive line rankings. They are the gold standard for that type of information. Here's the Super Bowl winners and their final regular season PFF ranking:

2021 Rams 7th
2020 Tampa Bay 5th
2019 Kansas City 16th
2018 New England 4th
2017 Philadelphia 1st

Over the past 5 seasons, the only SB champ that did not have an offensive line ranked 7th or higher was Kansas City, and of course, Mahomes likely made up for that deficiency by his scrambling and elusiveness. So to answer your question, I'd say yes, that unless you have a very good, mobile quarterback, that having a very solid offensive line is essential for a Lombardi-winning team.

As far as more wins, it would take a lot more homework than I'm willing to do, but here's the top 10 ranked OL's from 2021 and their regular season W/L record:

Dallas 12-5
Tampa Bay 13-4
San Francisco 10-7
Philadelphia 9-8
Kansas City 12-5
WFT 7-10
LA Rams 12-5
Cleveland 8-9
New England 10-7
LA Chargers 9-8

The Chiefs (#5), Rams (#7), and Niners (#3) all played in the NFCCG. The only outlier was Cincinatti with the 20th ranked OL. 7 of the top 10 OL's made the playoffs.

Bottom line is that although there are exceptions, your odds of success are much greater with a good offensive line.

RiverDog wrote:OL performance is hard to quantify, but if I had a point to prove, I'd start with PFF's offensive line rankings. They are the gold standard for that type of information. Here's the Super Bowl winners and their final regular season PFF ranking:

2021 Rams 7th
2020 Tampa Bay 5th
2019 Kansas City 16th
2018 New England 4th
2017 Philadelphia 1st

Over the past 5 seasons, the only SB champ that did not have an offensive line ranked 7th or higher was Kansas City, and of course, Mahomes likely made up for that deficiency by his scrambling and elusiveness. So to answer your question, I'd say yes, that unless you have a very good, mobile quarterback, that having a very solid offensive line is essential for a Lombardi-winning team.

Now we need to figure out how much they were paying for their O-line. If it was good drafting or O-line retention after first contracts.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Now we need to figure out how much they were paying for their O-line. If it was good drafting or O-line retention after first contracts.

I'll leave that to someone else.

Just read an interesting stat. Only 4 teams in the last 20 years (adjusted to 16 game season) had fewer offensive snaps than the 2021 Seahawks. That was offset some by the top 10 ranking in explosive plays. That is a lot of pressure to put on a defense, as it needs to be on the field too long.

Old but Slow wrote:Just read an interesting stat. Only 4 teams in the last 20 years (adjusted to 16 game season) had fewer offensive snaps than the 2021 Seahawks. That was offset some by the top 10 ranking in explosive plays. That is a lot of pressure to put on a defense, as it needs to be on the field too long.

That is brutal.

Old but Slow wrote:Just read an interesting stat. Only 4 teams in the last 20 years (adjusted to 16 game season) had fewer offensive snaps than the 2021 Seahawks. That was offset some by the top 10 ranking in explosive plays. That is a lot of pressure to put on a defense, as it needs to be on the field too long.

Being 26th in 3rd down conversions and dead last on 4th down is a more telling stat than explosive plays, as was Russell's 3rd down completion percentage, which even before his injury was worst in the league amongst starting QB's. That's one area where I agree with Hawktawk regarding Russell as his penchant for lower percentage sideline routes and not utilizing the middle of the field had a profound effect on our 3rd/4th down conversions.

But it's also a direct reflection on our offensive line, too. Lots of factors in the equation.

The interior of the OL didn’t perform well with Jackson being a disappointment and Lewis taking a step back
along with the continual problems at Center. Why they moved Lewis from his natural position of RG is a mystery when
Jackson has played LG before. It might turn out to be another OLineman who’s career trajectory is derailed by a
FO who doesn’t value or get how to develop players up front.

Old but Slow wrote:Just read an interesting stat. Only 4 teams in the last 20 years (adjusted to 16 game season) had fewer offensive snaps than the 2021 Seahawks. That was offset some by the top 10 ranking in explosive plays. That is a lot of pressure to put on a defense, as it needs to be on the field too long.

RiverDog wrote:Being 26th in 3rd down conversions and dead last on 4th down is a more telling stat than explosive plays, as was Russell's 3rd down completion percentage, which even before his injury was worst in the league amongst starting QB's. That's one area where I agree with Hawktawk regarding Russell as his penchant for lower percentage sideline routes and not utilizing the middle of the field had a profound effect on our 3rd/4th down conversions.

But it's also a direct reflection on our offensive line, too. Lots of factors in the equation.

So y'all just putting that all on the offense, nothing about the defenses own inability to get off the damn field on 3rd down?