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Although it has happened occasionally that a team will decide he's worth a second round pick, I see it as unlikely that he goes anywhere now.
Personally I'd still like to see the front office get a longer contract done for him, but at least he's ours for sure next year.
He's been our most consistent receiver, and seems to be Russell's favorite target when things are going sideways. He trust Doug to make plays, because that's what Doug does, he makes plays.

Definitely worth the tender, and I'm with you, Monkey; get this guy a long term deal. He's too clutch to let to. Then again, I get very sentimental about our players. Don't know that we'd get his equivalent in the second round, though. I'd rather not chance it.

I'm probably going to get lampooned for this, but Baldwin is a run of the mill, dime a dozen receiver that excelled in a vacuum that was minus Percy Harvin and Sidney Rice. I like the idea of keeping our team intact as he's a proven commodity, but he's not worth a fat long term contract.

I don't know, Riv- raw numbers might support that ("He had X catches, for X yards, etc"), but he catches *everything* thrown to him, runs good routes (apparently), seems to have a rapport with RW, etc.

I'm not an NFL talent scout, but he looks to me like an underrated, solid NFL receiver.

he's not worth a fat long term contract.

Hard to argue with that, though. "Fat" and "long term" are descriptors for contracts for guys like RW, when you *know* you don't want them going anywhere for a long time. I'd give Baldwin a decent check, though- he seems to thrive on the disrespect and I like that.

Seen a lot of great catches in my life, those catches on the sideline this year ranks up there. The guy is clutch, think Engrahm with better speed, more size, and the ability to run more with the ball after the catch. I am not saying he is on par with Welker,just that the man is clutch, and intense. Baldwin is a leader in this group, and on this team. He had 700 yards receiving and 5 TD's on a pass anemic team, hell he had over 100 yards in the NFCCG and a TD, led the team in the postseason, haven't seen a ton of "run of the mill" receivers do that recently, anyone else?

I am not saying give the guy Calvin Johnson money, but a 3-4 year 10 - 13 million dollar deal seems like a great idea to me.

Can someone honestly say Baldwin in say NE isn't on par with Edleman? Better?

RiverDog wrote:I'm probably going to get lampooned for this, but Baldwin is a run of the mill, dime a dozen receiver that excelled in a vacuum that was minus Percy Harvin and Sidney Rice. I like the idea of keeping our team intact as he's a proven commodity, but he's not worth a fat long term contract.

Nah, I think you are right about this one. Well, maybe not the "dime a dozen", perhaps 15 cents for the dozen..lol

He does have a rapport with RW3, but I don't think anyone is expecting anything longer than a 3 year offer, I am thinking probably 2.

DB89 may think he deserves more than that, we will see.

No way this front office is going to hand out a big contract on a #3 slot receiver who will catch 50-60 balls and 5-7 TD's, that's max numbers for him I think. Baldwin is going to have to continue to play with that chip on his shoulder, so a shorter term offer is what I would expect.

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Baldwin currently the second best receiver on this team? If there is another plan, I'm all for hearing it, but I don't see one, at least one that comes with the right price tag. Tate may resign, and I hope he does, and Kearse shows promise, but beyond that I am not convinced their is any, inexpensive piece out there that can duplicate Baldwins leadership, and work ethic, as well as his ability with Wilson. Like I said I am not condoning a break the bank situation, but to simply dismiss how important he has been on this team the last three years seems to me at least to be a bit of hoping for something to materialise, especially, if Harvin is as "injury prone" as people profess him to be, you NEED guys that can perform on the biggest stages, has Baldwin not?

HumanCockroach wrote:Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Baldwin currently the second best receiver on this team? If there is another plan, I'm all for hearing it, but I don't see one, at least one that comes with the right price tag. Tate may resign, and I hope he does, and Kearse shows promise, but beyond that I am not convinced their is any, inexpensive piece out there that can duplicate Baldwins leadership, and work ethic, as well as his ability with Wilson. Like I said I am not condoning a break the bank situation, but to simply dismiss how important he has been on this team the last three years seems to me at least to be a bit of hoping for something to materialise, especially, if Harvin is as "injury prone" as people profess him to be, you NEED guys that can perform on the biggest stages, has Baldwin not?

Baldwin made some of the sickest catches I have ever seen this year. He doesn't have the blazing breakaway speed but he is tough as whale Sh1t and he gets it done. We need him. Its amazing how Seattle wins a championship and suddenly people don't think we need some of the key guys who made it happen to do it again. Its whistling in the graveyard, if it aint broke don't fix it....

Hawktawk wrote:

HumanCockroach wrote:Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Baldwin currently the second best receiver on this team? If there is another plan, I'm all for hearing it, but I don't see one, at least one that comes with the right price tag. Tate may resign, and I hope he does, and Kearse shows promise, but beyond that I am not convinced their is any, inexpensive piece out there that can duplicate Baldwins leadership, and work ethic, as well as his ability with Wilson. Like I said I am not condoning a break the bank situation, but to simply dismiss how important he has been on this team the last three years seems to me at least to be a bit of hoping for something to materialise, especially, if Harvin is as "injury prone" as people profess him to be, you NEED guys that can perform on the biggest stages, has Baldwin not?

Baldwin made some of the sickest catches I have ever seen this year. He doesn't have the blazing breakaway speed but he is tough as whale Sh1t and he gets it done. We need him. Its amazing how Seattle wins a championship and suddenly people don't think we need some of the key guys who made it happen to do it again. Its whistling in the graveyard, if it aint broke don't fix it....

Not sure why you are amazed, there are people in this site as well as other Seahawk bogs who do no think we should pay to keep RW, they think since we are run first and have a "great" defense any QB would do. So if they feel like that about RW, you know they feel that way about Baldwin. Mind you they are not right but they are out there.

RiverDog wrote:I'm probably going to get lampooned for this, but Baldwin is a run of the mill, dime a dozen receiver that excelled in a vacuum that was minus Percy Harvin and Sidney Rice. I like the idea of keeping our team intact as he's a proven commodity, but he's not worth a fat long term contract.

No lampooning, but lot's of schooling.

You say that Baldwin excelled in a vacuum minus Rice and Harvin, but that downplays the reality that while Harvin and Rice were collecting huge checks Baldwin was on the field putting up numbers and doing what Rice and Harvin were paid to do. Regardless of who else was or wasn't playing, Baldwin was playing and doing it well. Over the last few years A LOT of players have had to perform in a vacuum minus Rice because he is either on the bench or invisible on the field. The most yards Rice ever got for us in a season was 748, which Baldwin has beat TWICE.

Your comment seems to downplay the value of his durability as well, so here's some knowledge to chew on: you wanna know which WR has the 9th highest receiving yards for a 3-year span since 2000 for the Hawks? If you thought I was about to say Doug Baldwin you'd be wrong, but it's ok if you can't "Hack it" like DJ, I never would've guessed him.



No, Doug Baldwin comes in at #5 since 2000 with 1932.
Think about the WRs we've drafted since 2000, the WRs we've traded for (ughh), and the WRs we've signed in FA (ugh). The best WR we signed in FA was Bobby Engram, followed by Doug Baldwin (udfa).


This part is not directed at you Riverdog, but ever since Rice joined the Hawks, at the end of the season there would be people talking about the next season and how we "get him back" and he will show us what he can do and yet it pretty much the same story every year. After Harvin's 1st year it is exactly the same from people, as if healing from your 7th injury prevents you from suffering an 8th, just like Rice healing from whatever injury meant that he wouldn't suffer another.

The seahawks are a run-first team and yet we were the ONLY team with 2 WRs under contract making an average of $8m or more per year. Peyton didn't get that, Brady didn't get that, Brees didn't get that, Ryan didn't get that, Rivers didn't get that. Not a single team besides the Hawks had 2 WRs under contract for an average of $8m per year or more, and what did we get in 2013?

For 19 games we got: 274 yards receiving, 39 yards rushing, 87 yard kick return for a TD.........in 19 games.

How much would you pay for a WR that put up those season stats? Less than $1m. Rice and Harvin COMBINED produced like an underproducing $1m WR. The Hawks paid $8.5m to Rice this year, and with Harvin we can either use his average annual salary ($11.2m) or his signing bonus plus 2013 salary ($14.5m total).

Baldwin has always been an absolute bargain, putting up better numbers than our SuperDuo at like 2.5% of the price.


Either way, John Schneider put together the most overpaid and under-productive WR duo in NFL HISTORY. It could easily take 20-30 years for that record to get broken. As i said earlier, only ONE TEAM had two WRs being paid more than $8m and they both happened to be gigantic busts this year. What are the odds of a GM being THAT WRONG on which WRs to add to the team and paying them THAT MUCH??? Not only that, but they both came from the same team and were both damaged goods BEFORE they came here. OOPS...

I think we should all learn to appreciate the Hawks WRs that actually produce for us, because for a franchise that has DJ Hackett as its 9th best 3-year WR in the last 14 years we really don't have much in the way of WRs to appreciate.

Does Baldwin deserve a big contract? No. Was it wise to place a 2nd round tender on him? Yes. He has been worth more than hes been paid and he is likely to continue to do so even at his higher salary. He is truly the most under-appreciated player on the Hawks. He has gone out there and given us the production we needed while the guys who were paid to get the job done could not. He was NEVER supposed to be a big part of our passing game but the constant injuries gave him the chance to shine and he did. Unfortunately for him the $$$$ given to the injured vikings WRs shined a lot brighter and distracted people from his accomplishments. Must be a bling thing.

PS. For my 3-year calculation I took each player's top 3-year span and ranked them, so no player counts multiple times for different 3-season spans.

I like Baldwin, too. I also liked Kearse, thought the guy did a magnificent job for us, and yes, Russell has developed a rapport with him. The Bobby Engram comparison is completely valid. Clutch receiver. It's not that I don't appreciate his contributions. I just don't like tying up a bunch of money at the WR position, which is one of the reasons why I was against the Harvin trade. The position isn't like quarterback, cornerback, or left tackle where really good ones are hard to come by. There's scores of really great receivers out there, and I don't think there's going to be enough money to pay guys like Baldwin and Tate 80% of what they could fetch on the open market if we're going to retain guys like our LOB, Bobby Wagner, RW, Okung, and continue to pay Harvin his mega bucks.

Take a look at New England. They never tied up a bunch of money in wide receivers. Deon Branch wants a new contract and it's bye bye. Same with Wes Welker. Those guys are easily replaced. One of the stupidest comments that Jim Harbaugh made and that made me laugh the hardest was when he said that Michael Crabtree was the best pass catcher ever. Horse pucky! There are scores of receivers, both currently in the league and in the college ranks that can make all the catches that Crabtree makes, and that's not to slight him in the least (I'll leave that to Richard Sherman). Wide receiver is one of the commonest of commodities in the game.

We're going to be faced with some really tough decisions in the coming years, and I don't want to see it complicated even further by committing a bunch of money to the WR position.

RiverDog wrote:I like Baldwin, too. I also liked Kearse, thought the guy did a magnificent job for us, and yes, Russell has developed a rapport with him. The Bobby Engram comparison is completely valid. Clutch receiver. It's not that I don't appreciate his contributions. I just don't like tying up a bunch of money at the WR position, which is one of the reasons why I was against the Harvin trade. The position isn't like quarterback, cornerback, or left tackle where really good ones are hard to come by. There's scores of really great receivers out there, and I don't think there's going to be enough money to pay guys like Baldwin and Tate 80% of what they could fetch on the open market if we're going to retain guys like our LOB, Bobby Wagner, RW, Okung, and continue to pay Harvin his mega bucks.

Take a look at New England. They never tied up a bunch of money in wide receivers. Deon Branch wants a new contract and it's bye bye. Same with Wes Welker. Those guys are easily replaced. One of the stupidest comments that Jim Harbaugh made and that made me laugh the hardest was when he said that Michael Crabtree was the best pass catcher ever. Horse pucky! There are scores of receivers, both currently in the league and in the college ranks that can make all the catches that Crabtree makes, and that's not to slight him in the least (I'll leave that to Richard Sherman). Wide receiver is one of the commonest of commodities in the game.

We're going to be faced with some really tough decisions in the coming years, and I don't want to see it complicated even further by committing a bunch of money to the WR position.

I share your general concerns Riv. But lets be honest, we will keep Baldwin. He will not go anywhere. Tate will re-sign for reasonable money that will still allow us to do our thing on the FA market and take care of our premier teammates.
Relax Riv, take a hit on a J since its legal now, and watch my prediction come to pass.
The only guy I agree with everyone on here about is HARVIN.
He is an unknown when it comes to his work ethic and staying healthy.(For a complete season that is). Huge huge problem for the hawks paying him the money they are paying him. Though it certainly paid off for us last season despite him not playing over 90 percent of our games.
That alone tells me to keep our current WR's if possible.
You may see a team offer Baldwin ridiculous money. At that point its over. But I don't see that happening for some reason. I see the hawks matching or working out a multi year deal with him so that everyone is happy. Baldwin is money! I want him even more than Tate who I also want to keep. He might be Ingram. With Tate being a Burleson(loosely speaking okay?)

RiverDog wrote:I like Baldwin, too. I also liked Kearse, thought the guy did a magnificent job for us, and yes, Russell has developed a rapport with him. The Bobby Engram comparison is completely valid. Clutch receiver. It's not that I don't appreciate his contributions. I just don't like tying up a bunch of money at the WR position, which is one of the reasons why I was against the Harvin trade. The position isn't like quarterback, cornerback, or left tackle where really good ones are hard to come by. There's scores of really great receivers out there, and I don't think there's going to be enough money to pay guys like Baldwin and Tate 80% of what they could fetch on the open market if we're going to retain guys like our LOB, Bobby Wagner, RW, Okung, and continue to pay Harvin his mega bucks.

Take a look at New England. They never tied up a bunch of money in wide receivers. Deon Branch wants a new contract and it's bye bye. Same with Wes Welker. Those guys are easily replaced. One of the stupidest comments that Jim Harbaugh made and that made me laugh the hardest was when he said that Michael Crabtree was the best pass catcher ever. Horse pucky! There are scores of receivers, both currently in the league and in the college ranks that can make all the catches that Crabtree makes, and that's not to slight him in the least (I'll leave that to Richard Sherman). Wide receiver is one of the commonest of commodities in the game.

We're going to be faced with some really tough decisions in the coming years, and I don't want to see it complicated even further by committing a bunch of money to the WR position.

I didn't see anyone advocating breaking the bank for Baldwin. 2.5 a year for 3 or 4 years isn't breaking the bank, as for all the "scores" of receivers, it's all good to SAY that, quite another to put it into action. There aren't "scores" RD, otherwise teams wouldn't be paying money to receivers, they would let them all go and replace with cheap options, year in and year out. Welker got PAID in NE BIG contract money ( he wanted more YEARS than NE was willing to offer), they paid Moss big money, they gave Amendola MORE money than the Hawks would have to give Baldwin to retain him, and he was a guy that had major question marks coming into the season.

If there were scores man, every team would have great receivers, and that simply isn't the case.

Something tells me you are making the mistake of looking at his yardage totals, and comparing them to others with similar numbers instead of looking at the body of work. Just like Carter and others you are ignoring the key plays made by him in favor of raw stats.

Eaglehawk wrote:I share your general concerns Riv. But lets be honest, we will keep Baldwin. He will not go anywhere. Tate will re-sign for reasonable money that will still allow us to do our thing on the FA market and take care of our premier teammates.
Relax Riv, take a hit on a J since its legal now, and watch my prediction come to pass.
The only guy I agree with everyone on here about is HARVIN.
He is an unknown when it comes to his work ethic and staying healthy.(For a complete season that is). Huge huge problem for the hawks paying him the money they are paying him. Though it certainly paid off for us last season despite him not playing over 90 percent of our games.
That alone tells me to keep our current WR's if possible.
You may see a team offer Baldwin ridiculous money. At that point its over. But I don't see that happening for some reason. I see the hawks matching or working out a multi year deal with him so that everyone is happy. Baldwin is money! I want him even more than Tate who I also want to keep. He might be Ingram. With Tate being a Burleson(loosely speaking okay?)

I hope you're right. My point is that I don't want to see us committing a lot of money to the WR position. We have bigger fish to fry.

RiverDog wrote:

Eaglehawk wrote:I share your general concerns Riv. But lets be honest, we will keep Baldwin. He will not go anywhere. Tate will re-sign for reasonable money that will still allow us to do our thing on the FA market and take care of our premier teammates.
Relax Riv, take a hit on a J since its legal now, and watch my prediction come to pass.
The only guy I agree with everyone on here about is HARVIN.
He is an unknown when it comes to his work ethic and staying healthy.(For a complete season that is). Huge huge problem for the hawks paying him the money they are paying him. Though it certainly paid off for us last season despite him not playing over 90 percent of our games.
That alone tells me to keep our current WR's if possible.
You may see a team offer Baldwin ridiculous money. At that point its over. But I don't see that happening for some reason. I see the hawks matching or working out a multi year deal with him so that everyone is happy. Baldwin is money! I want him even more than Tate who I also want to keep. He might be Ingram. With Tate being a Burleson(loosely speaking okay?)

I hope you're right. My point is that I don't want to see us committing a lot of money to the WR position. We have bigger fish to fry.

Me too River. Me too.

I think the OL is the most important position to upgrade, but that's if we can keep most of the other players on Offense.

I'm not sure we would have had HFA if it wasn't for Baldwin.
He made some drive saving catches at critical times in some games that arguably could have gone the other way if he dropped them.
Having a WR that runs concise routes and is where he is supposed to be almost all the time is crucial for a QB.
He's become a bit of a security blanket for RW and that can't be replaced easily.

The second round designation actually bothers me a lot. The reason why is Irsay was rumored to be after Doug two years ago and now they don't have a 1st rounder via the trade for Richardson. They do however have a second round pick and Doug is IMO absolutely worth it. I would take Doug over Tate every day of the week. This guy isn't run of the mill, he works with Steve Largent to perfect his trade. He also has a constant chip on his shoulder which always pushes him. He cares about getting better and he's far more clutch than Tate is who shows inconsistency throughout the year. Losing Doug would be a huge blow. I'm actually irritated they didn't give him a 1st round designation as to almost guarantee a lack of interest from other teams.

I'm not sure what game they're playing, but it feels a bit on the dangerous side.

Personally, I think Tate will go the Bennett route anyway. Talk is cheap.

RiverDog wrote:I'm probably going to get lampooned for this, but Baldwin is a run of the mill, dime a dozen receiver that excelled in a vacuum that was minus Percy Harvin and Sidney Rice. I like the idea of keeping our team intact as he's a proven commodity, but he's not worth a fat long term contract.

I'd disagree with the first part, I don't think that he's run of the mill at all, though hes also not Percy Harvin by ANY stretch, but the second part I agree with completely.
I said I'd like to see them lock him up to a longer contract, what I didn't say was that I wanted to see them overpay him!
I like Baldwin for all the reasons I mentioned. I trust him, Wilson trusts him to make plays when it matters. The guy is just clutch.
He's not, however, super fast, or super big or super...whatever. He IS a really good slot receiver though, and I think you may be understating that a bit.
As a #1 or #2 receiver, he's run of the mill, but as a slot receiver, he's one of the NFL's best, and I can back that up with stats!
He's our Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, etc... and as such, he give the Seahawwks a distinct advantage over other teams defenses.
Remember how valuable Bobby Engram was to us years back? This guy is every bit as good with more speed.
For that reason I'd like to see them lock him up to a longer REASONABLE contract.

Nice post Monkey. Reasonable is the key word.

I don't concern myself with the money part of it.
That's for people that make a whole lot more than most of us and who have made "capology" part of their working lives or careers.
I'm more worried about keeping the important pieces of the team together.

monkey wrote:

RiverDog wrote:I'm probably going to get lampooned for this, but Baldwin is a run of the mill, dime a dozen receiver that excelled in a vacuum that was minus Percy Harvin and Sidney Rice. I like the idea of keeping our team intact as he's a proven commodity, but he's not worth a fat long term contract.

I'd disagree with the first part, I don't think that he's run of the mill at all, though hes also not Percy Harvin by ANY stretch, but the second part I agree with completely.
I said I'd like to see them lock him up to a longer contract, what I didn't say was that I wanted to see them overpay him!
I like Baldwin for all the reasons I mentioned. I trust him, Wilson trusts him to make plays when it matters. The guy is just clutch.
He's not, however, super fast, or super big or super...whatever. He IS a really good slot receiver though, and I think you may be understating that a bit.
As a #1 or #2 receiver, he's run of the mill, but as a slot receiver, he's one of the NFL's best, and I can back that up with stats!
He's our Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, etc... and as such, he give the Seahawwks a distinct advantage over other teams defenses.
Remember how valuable Bobby Engram was to us years back? This guy is every bit as good with more speed.
For that reason I'd like to see them lock him up to a longer REASONABLE contract.

Great discussion so far. I would say everyone agrees DB89 is a guy that the 'Hawks have to keep. But at what price and term?

With so many others that have contracts coming up and you know there will be some big $$ thrown their way, where does DB89 fit in. So unusual for the 'Hawks to have these problems, but this is hopefully just the beginning of these types of cases.

Players will go (Tate, Bennett??) as more money will be elsewhere, and finding their replacements will be no easy task. This is where Pete and John will show their true talent, you have to wrestle with the cap and the importance of the player to the team and how easily said player could be replaced if you decide to let him go or give him what he deems an insulting offer.

I think in DB89's case, the 2nd round tender was perfect. Someone mentioned playing a dangerous game by not giving him a 1st round tender, but let's be honest, he is not anywhere near a 1st round tender. I would say the 2nd round tender is a little above what teams would pay, so I think they showed DB89 respect with that designation. He was freakin undrafted!

I mean, he's no Cris Carter.....right?

I don't know, Jeron Johson received the same 2nd round tender, and while I do appreciate the depth, and the special teams play he provides, I think it would be hard to say they have contributed on equal platforms. Baldwin would have made an extra 300 thousand or so for the first round tender vs the 2nd ( at least according to Clayton) and IMHO 300,000 isn't a bad idea to lock him up for this coming season, and IF someone out there gets froggy with the money with him, you receive a 1st as compensation. IMHO that is worth every penny of it.

We know what we have in Baldwin, he's only 25, and he isn't going to break the bank on his next deal.

The kid is a gamer, has a chip on his shoulder mentality that I really like. I don't think money will change his approach. He primary focus is team first. I like the move we did on him today.

I also agree with the 'reasonable' crowd in terms of throwing money at the WR position, since we already did that with Percy.

Baldwin being 'run of the mill' is unadulterated hogwash. Facts:

Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement (DYAR): Baldwin 273 - #13 in the NFL
Defense-adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA): Baldwin 33.1% - #2 in the NFL
Catch Rate: Baldwin 68% - tied for #5 in the NFL

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

Baldwin being 'run of the mill' is unadulterated hogwash. Facts:

Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement (DYAR): Baldwin 273 - #13 in the NFL
Defense-adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA): Baldwin 33.1% - #2 in the NFL
Catch Rate: Baldwin 68% - tied for #5 in the NFL

Haw anyone can bag on Dougie is BEYOND me. This guy is everything the Seahawks represent on the field. WTF are you guys smoking? If there's anything this regime has showed you in the past few years, it's the fact that an organization can take an under appreciated player & turn him into a producing, contributing, essential part of a championship squad. Doug Baldwin is, & should continue to be, a SEAHAWK!

Vegaseahawk wrote: Doug Baldwin is, & should continue to be, a SEAHAWK!

Not counting Harvin who is insanely talented, but needs to stay healthy, I think he's our best and most consistent receiver, even if we keep Tate. Baldwin is the guy Wilson throws to when all else breaks down. That tells you everything you need to know about his importance to the team. Wilson trusts him to make big plays...what more needs to be said than that?

Am I the only one who sees a bit of Largent in Baldwin? [And calm down, I said "a bit." ]

He's not the fastest, the biggest, or the most athletic. He just produces. His routes are crisp, and his footwork enables him to create space where there shouldn't be. He is shifty at the LOS and that also enables him to get space quickly. He has great hands and and straight OWNS the sideline. I'm always amazed at how good he is at getting open just 15-20 yards downfield on fade routes. Those are the routes that nobody completes on Sherman, because every CB knows to run the WR to the sideline. But even without elite speed or size, Baldwin uses a little stutter step to get the CB on his heels, and then gets just a step behind him to catch the over-the-shoulder pass from Wilson. It seems with a short QB and shortish WR, those passes wouldn't work so well, but Wilson and Baldwin are just dialed in on those plays. Which is great, because the chemistry to make that play work is insane.

He also has great awareness, and excels and tracking back and getting open when the play breaks down, again showing that chemistry. After Bennett, I think Baldwin should be the next priority.

Oly wrote:Am I the only one who sees a bit of Largent in Baldwin? [And calm down, I said "a bit." ]

He's not the fastest, the biggest, or the most athletic. He just produces. His routes are crisp, and his footwork enables him to create space where there shouldn't be. He is shifty at the LOS and that also enables him to get space quickly. He has great hands and and straight OWNS the sideline. I'm always amazed at how good he is at getting open just 15-20 yards downfield on fade routes. Those are the routes that nobody completes on Sherman, because every CB knows to run the WR to the sideline. But even without elite speed or size, Baldwin uses a little stutter step to get the CB on his heels, and then gets just a step behind him to catch the over-the-shoulder pass from Wilson. It seems with a short QB and shortish WR, those passes wouldn't work so well, but Wilson and Baldwin are just dialed in on those plays. Which is great, because the chemistry to make that play work is insane.

He also has great awareness, and excels and tracking back and getting open when the play breaks down, again showing that chemistry. After Bennett, I think Baldwin should be the next priority.

I'm sure his work with Steve Largent had something to do with that....

"How anyone can bag on Dougie is BEYOND me. This guy is everything the Seahawks represent on the field. WTF are you guys smoking? If there's anything this regime has showed you in the past few years, it's the fact that an organization can take an under appreciated player & turn him into a producing, contributing, essential part of a championship squad. Doug Baldwin is, & should continue to be, a SEAHAWK!"


+ a MILLION. Thank you. And I know, River, that you are not doggin on Doug as much as you are making a point about the value of a receiver. That's a fair position and I am not doggin on you. Just wanted to be clear.

I just HATE the "feeling" of the lack of loyalty that crops up this time of year in particular. In this instance, perhaps it is not there and we are having a reasonable discussion about the value of position groups and how to structure payroll in a way that nets the best possible team. Perhaps it's just my sentimental side that comes creepin' out this time of year. I can't help but lament the loss of our FAs.... CC was an amazing part of our team - He gave us his best and I loved him. Same with Big Red and GT. Gone, they are......and many people are glad. I've admitted before that I would make the worlds crappiest GM ever for sentimentality reasons alone. But can we at least all just respect what Dougie gave to us - as fans. Would we have won the Super Bowl without him? without CC? Big Red? GT? There is a point where the answer switches to no - we would not have.

OK - I'm done.

Baldwin stepped into the role of the guy who could make the precision catches on the side lines, tapping toes, dragging feet etc. that Rice, despite under performing on his contract, was so professional that he could make. The catch that really stands out to me was in that Bears game that turned the season last year. Kearse and Tate just don't make that catch. It is absolutely vital to have a guy like that. When Rice tore his ACL that was what I was worried about the most. I actually liked Kearse better but he was so much more raw than Rice, that he couldn't be trusted to make those types of catches that extend drives.

Engram was that guy on the 2005, the only problem is when you start to overvalue that and think he can play outside full time. Keeping Doug is the absolute right thing to do. Plus I love the chip on his shoulder.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel about Doug as well Kal.
I like Tate, and I think he's going to become a fantasy stud next year opposite Megatron, (man that is going to be an AWESOME 1-2 punch for the Lions!!!) but IMO he's just not as important to this team as Doug is.
Doug is THE guy that Wilson trusts most when things get tight. Doug is the guy who makes toe tapping catches on the sideline that keep drives alive when we are down in the fourth quarter, allowing us to come back and win. Doug is the guy who, on third down, somehow gets himself open deep in the middle of the field with Wilson scrambling around desperately, then adjusts and makes the big play.
Doug is consistent. Doug makes plays. Doug is just clutch.

As has been echoed several times but bears repeating, he's a faster Bobby Engram.
The funny thing is that, while Doug's value is just not replaceable the way that Tate's is to the Seahawks, to the Lions, Tate has way more value.
I realize that sounds ridiculous, but when you think about it, you quickly realize it's absolutely not.

I really just want to clarify, because some posters on here I think have mistaken a great value discussion for some of us saying DB89 is very replaceable (Hawk Sista said it best, and just wanted to be clear on that point), that I am in no way saying otherwise.

I think the worst thing said on here is Riv's comment about him being "run of the mill". And I don't think he wholeheartedly meant it in that way.

I think we are both just saying with so many contracts coming up to other key guys, they should not over pay in money or term for DB89. He is going to get a nice fat raise for what he was making coming in as a UDFA, and it is well deserved. He is most certainly a keg cog in the offence, especially on 3rd downs. Having a reliable chain mover and security for RW3 is important.

But we are seeing already that the FA's brought in and the ones we keep are going to have to be signed to reasonable contracts (and the draft picks are going to have to continue to pan out) if the team is going to remain competitive year in and year out.

See the Patriots and the Steelers, as teams who have had to make the tough choice to let guys go who you know they really wanted to keep, but did so, in order to remain balanced in all positions.

But again, I hope they lock up DB89 for at least 3 years for an amount both sides are happy with. And as I stated earlier, would not be surprised to see a 2 year deal, keep that chip on his shoulder.

HumanCockroach wrote:

Oly wrote:Am I the only one who sees a bit of Largent in Baldwin? [And calm down, I said "a bit." ]

He's not the fastest, the biggest, or the most athletic. He just produces. His routes are crisp, and his footwork enables him to create space where there shouldn't be. He is shifty at the LOS and that also enables him to get space quickly. He has great hands and and straight OWNS the sideline. I'm always amazed at how good he is at getting open just 15-20 yards downfield on fade routes. Those are the routes that nobody completes on Sherman, because every CB knows to run the WR to the sideline. But even without elite speed or size, Baldwin uses a little stutter step to get the CB on his heels, and then gets just a step behind him to catch the over-the-shoulder pass from Wilson. It seems with a short QB and shortish WR, those passes wouldn't work so well, but Wilson and Baldwin are just dialed in on those plays. Which is great, because the chemistry to make that play work is insane.

He also has great awareness, and excels and tracking back and getting open when the play breaks down, again showing that chemistry. After Bennett, I think Baldwin should be the next priority.

I'm sure his work with Steve Largent had something to do with that....

How did I not know this?! I feel like my fandom just took a hit.

Yah, when did he work with Largent?
I don't remember anything about that, either - but his routes are pretty crisp and his hands are above average so there are some parallels to Largent's game.

During training camp last season, though maybe the word "work" is a little strong I guess.... he sought him out and picked his brain.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=2398938

Agent 86 wrote:I really just want to clarify, because some posters on here I think have mistaken a great value discussion for some of us saying DB89 is very replaceable (Hawk Sista said it best, and just wanted to be clear on that point), that I am in no way saying otherwise.

I think the worst thing said on here is Riv's comment about him being "run of the mill". And I don't think he wholeheartedly meant it in that way.

I think we are both just saying with so many contracts coming up to other key guys, they should not over pay in money or term for DB89. He is going to get a nice fat raise for what he was making coming in as a UDFA, and it is well deserved. He is most certainly a keg cog in the offence, especially on 3rd downs. Having a reliable chain mover and security for RW3 is important.

But we are seeing already that the FA's brought in and the ones we keep are going to have to be signed to reasonable contracts (and the draft picks are going to have to continue to pan out) if the team is going to remain competitive year in and year out.

See the Patriots and the Steelers, as teams who have had to make the tough choice to let guys go who you know they really wanted to keep, but did so, in order to remain balanced in all positions.

But again, I hope they lock up DB89 for at least 3 years for an amount both sides are happy with. And as I stated earlier, would not be surprised to see a 2 year deal, keep that chip on his shoulder.

You're right, I didn't mean it to be interpreted as a derogatory term. Doug Baldwin is a solid contributor, and I very much appreciate his efforts. I don't know how else to express my sentiment in that he's an average or perhaps slightly above average NFL receiver. Kinda like being a B student, it's not going to get you hired into a 6 figure salary, but certainly nothing in a B that would disqualify you from landing a pretty good paying job.

But after losing Tate, it increases Baldwin's value to our team, and changes my outlook on the urgency to resign him. Not doing so would leave us a huge gap as we'd be depending heavily on a completely healthy, highly motivated Percy Harvin to carry the bulk of the load at WR, something I'm not at all comfortable with.

monkey wrote:As has been echoed several times but bears repeating, he's a faster Bobby Engram.
The funny thing is that, while Doug's value is just not replaceable the way that Tate's is to the Seahawks, to the Lions, Tate has way more value.
I realize that sounds ridiculous, but when you think about it, you quickly realize it's absolutely not.

Not to get off topic, but while I agree that Tate is probably of more value to the Lions than to us ( although we now need a real #1 receiver) I don't think Stafford is the right guy to lead the Lions, or any team for that matter. Stafford is a fine QB athlete but I don't think he has the leadership abilities that the position requires. Sort of the way I view Romo, he doesn't have that winners distinctive quality. For that reason I don't think Tate will flourish as much as others seem to feel. Personality wise I think there might be the potential for Megatron and Tate to not be a complimentary tandem and that Stafford lacks the skill to reign their egos in. Baldwin and Kearse seem to me to be more of the lunch-pail type guys. They can work well with the sort of Prima Donna attitudes that come with #1 receivers (which incidentally isn't a bad trait for a #1 receiver). I think Tate considers himself a #1 no matter who else is on the team.