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It looks like we slid backwards from 2020 as we were ranked 14th last season:

25. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (DOWN 1)
LT Duane Brown | 72.0
LG Damien Lewis | 57.7
C Ethan Pocic | 68.0
RG Gabe Jackson | 63.6
RT Brandon Shell | 67.6

Seattle’s offensive line just can’t find a way to get out of its rut, and if anything is going to convince quarterback Russell Wilson that maybe the grass is greener somewhere else, it may be that. Duane Brown has been the unit's best player since the team traded for him in 2017, but he just posted his lowest PFF grade (72.0) since he was a rookie. Wilson was under pressure on 37.0% of his dropbacks this season, one of the higher marks in the league.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021 ... e-rankings

Here's last season's OL grades, although they don't include individual starters:

14. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS
The Seahawks’ offensive line ranked 16th as a unit in pass-blocking grade this season. That may not appear all that impressive on the surface, but it’s the highest they’ve ranked in that area since Russell Wilson has been in Seattle.

That improvement is due in part to several members along the line taking steps toward the production Duane Brown has been able to put forth each year since joining the team in 2017.

Brown remains the leader of that group up front at 35 years old, fresh off his highest PFF grade (87.3) since 2011. He has been a model of consistency in pass protection over the years, with pass-blocking grades of 77.0 or higher in every season since 2011 on at least 400 pass-blocking snaps. The 2020 season was just another chapter in what has been an underrated career for the 2008 first-round pick.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

Not real good evidence if you have adapted the position that our team is getting better.

I'm surprised at that low a score for Gabe, he eyeballed better than that, at least late in the season.

c_hawkbob wrote:I'm surprised at that low a score for Gabe, he eyeballed better than that, at least late in the season.

Yeah, and Lewis was a disappointment, too, although some of that may be due to his moving to the left side to make room for Jackson.

It's also worth noting Creed Humphrey's grade, one of the players we passed over when we took Dee Eskridge as our first selection in the draft last season.

I think you have to take these types of rankings with a grain of salt.
Apparently Mark Glowinski out performed Quentin Nelson on the Colts. That's kind of hard to believe.

These reflect the whole season when Kyle Fuller "played center" and Damien was adapting to Left Guard...Duane Brown also got better as the season wore on...in the Cardinals game you can see him "man handle" Chandler Jones. The Chandler strip sack came from the strong side of the field as if Jones was untouched.

The O-Line transformed itself with the emergence of Penny...there is a website I frequent called http://www.fieldgulls.com ...Sams Film Room: Rashaad Penny looked dominant against the Cardinals by SamuelRGold...he breaks down players across the NFL and uses film clips to analyze/show what is occurring and why.

Of a separate matter Phil Haynes injury subbed in for Damien Lewis at Left Guard then for Gabe Jackson at right guard against the Cards...looking very good "like he belonged as a starter"...he had some major blocks that sprung Penny on some of Penny's longest gains. Our interior O-Line played very well those last few games and began to get better from the point where Ethan Pocic took over Center from K. Fuller.

NorthHawk wrote:I think you have to take these types of rankings with a grain of salt. Apparently Mark Glowinski out performed Quentin Nelson on the Colts. That's kind of hard to believe.

There's always going to be some questionable judgements in these types of evaluations as there's a lot of subjectivity involved, especially with the offensive line as unlike most other positions, there aren't quantifiable statistics that can be referenced. But PFF is widely accepted as the gold standard in its field and is used by most football analysts.

RiverDog wrote:It's also worth noting Creed Humphrey's grade, one of the players we passed over when we took Dee Eskridge as our first selection in the draft last season.

Continuing to note the regret of not having drafted Creed Humphrey is like forever agonizing the loss of Max Unger in the Jimmy Grahm trade...it serves no healthy purpose...can our team go back in time?

Fans always have their own opinion of "what is needed" yet these fans are not highly paid scouts...let alone rise to the level of being well paid and trusted as a GM. Its supposed to be fun "2nd guessing" draft selections but some turn it into a witch hunt to justify their animosity toward management. Its almost like sports politics as seeds of doubt and suspicion are sowed...spurring others in their trappings of doom and gloom.

I have to wonder how much of the writers personal opinions influence the ratings.
It's human nature when ranking things even if that person or people aren't aware of it.

[quote="tarlhawk"][quote="RiverDog"]
It's also worth noting Creed Humphrey's grade, one of the players we passed over when we took Dee Eskridge as our first selection in the draft last season.

Continuing to note the regret of not having drafted Creed Humphrey is like forever agonizing the loss of Max Unger in the Jimmy Grahm trade...it serves no healthy purpose...can our team go back in time?

Fans always have their own opinion of "what is needed" yet these fans are not highly paid scouts...let alone rise to the level of being well paid and trusted as a GM. Its supposed to be fun "2nd guessing" draft selections but some turn it into a witch hunt to justify their animosity toward management. Its almost like sports politics as seeds of doubt and suspicion are sowed...spurring others in their trappings of doom and gloom.

But when the FO/HC continue to state the needs then proceed to pass by those needs for other players, regret is going to happen.
It's odd that many fans would have made better selections than our FO who seem to want to show the NFL how smart they are by either trading past that need or taking one player that
is considered a long shot earlier than they should. It's a pattern that has done a disservice to our team over the course of the last 7 or 8 years.

tarlhawk wrote:These reflect the whole season when Kyle Fuller "played center" and Damien was adapting to Left Guard...Duane Brown also got better as the season wore on...in the Cardinals game you can see him "man handle" Chandler Jones. The Chandler strip sack came from the strong side of the field as if Jones was untouched.

PFF revises their rankings on a weekly basis, and you will note that we were down one spot from the Week 17 grades. Just taking some random weeks, in Week 16, we were ranked 14th:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-16-of ... kings-2021

Week 15 had us at #24:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-15-of ... kings-2021

Week 10 had us at #23:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-of ... kings-2021

I'm not sure if those rankings are for the individual weeks or for the season. I thought that they were done by season, but it doesn't seem right that we'd go from 24th in Week 15 to 14th in Week 16, a huge jump for one game so late in the season.

But whatever the case may be, you simply can't spin that evaluation to show that we've seen an improvement in our offensive line, especially when it corresponds with the team sinking from a 12-4 record to 7-10.

RiverDog wrote:It's also worth noting Creed Humphrey's grade, one of the players we passed over when we took Dee Eskridge as our first selection in the draft last season.

tarlhawk wrote:Continuing to note the regret of not having drafted Creed Humphrey is like forever agonizing the loss of Max Unger in the Jimmy Grahm trade...it serves no healthy purpose...can our team go back in time?

Serves no healthy purpose? Some kind of history advocate you are. Why even bother with a forum if we aren't going to revisit our past successes and failures? Besides, I offered no editorial comment other than saying that it was worth noting Humphrey's grade.

NorthHawk wrote:I have to wonder how much of the writers personal opinions influence the ratings. It's human nature when ranking things even if that person or people aren't aware of it.

I haven't a clue as to how PFF does their rankings. All I know is that it's widely used by people that know a helluva lot more about football than any of us in here, so it seems likely that it's as objective as one can devise. Do you have a source that you feel is more accurate?

RiverDog wrote:But whatever the case may be, you simply can't spin that evaluation to show that we've seen an improvement in our offensive line, especially when it corresponds with the team sinking from a 12-4 record to 7-10.

Its not really spin...its my own opinion from watching the improvements...I always wanted to pay for access to PFF's library of resources but haven't made that commitment. I did see a reference to PFF on a mid-90's grade on Phil Haynes game against the Lions. The O-Line is seldom mentioned in any NFL game unless its a penalty or allows an opponents sack...but some film breakdown by knowledgeable people sometimes gives insight that even the eye can't discern.

As far as seasons go the difference from last season is six games...We lost our elite QB for all intents and purposes for a six to seven game stretch...we had Kyle Fuller at C for a seven game stretch in the beginning...we lost 5 close games by a field goal or less. Pressure rate is a good stat to show QB duress but alone the stat doesn't account for times the QB hesitated or was trying to extend a play which Russell does alot.

RiverDog wrote:Why even bother with a forum if we aren't going to revisit our past successes and failures? Besides, I offered no editorial comment other than saying that it was worth noting Humphrey's grade.

I wasn't advocating to ignor criticism of the team you root for...sometimes an idea seems very one sided till someone shares some insight that improves the knowledge of anyone caring to participate. My point was some speculation when often repeated seems to serve less and less purpose. We could have speculated when New England drafted Tom Brady in the 6th round...why didn't our own team draft him?

I don't see draft selections in such a simple manner as praise or scorn...we aren't privy to the information our team uses in making its draft selections. I felt the same way in how everyone was riveted on the tragic events concerning OJ Simpson...making strong opinions one side or the other when only the jury or few others have privileged information...the media toys with our emotions to illicit an opinion as fact...which makes light of a very tragic event where lives were lost.

Creed is playing in another teams system with a different style of QB under a different O-Line coach...many factors are at play in determining success or failure. Many QBs fall under the same scrutiny...teams as a whole often determine a rookie QB's effectiveness...a certain system might allow a QB to thrive while other systems could cause a rookie QB to fail often exposing them to undue criticism.

My point is...would Creed in our system thrive and actually be the source of some additional wins? ...we don't know/can't know because we don't have his services...would he be an upgrade over Pocic? ...highly likely...but that speculation can only take you so far. There are history buffs and there are those who study history with the intent of being revisionists.

Tari you say stuff I think but much more coherently . I know it’s one voice but Paul Moyer broke down the line and Russ after the tired of getting hit comments . He concluded Russ was totally or partly responsible for almost half his 2020
sacks . He reamed Russ for holding the ball on the strip sack for not noticing a rusher who was unaccounted for . He needed to audible a back or someone to chip the guy or unload the ball quick . He took the horrible sack vs the bears . 3 sack vs the Rams all 5 seconds after the snap . The line that got better as the year went on . The run game was insane . Russ threw 9 TD passes in the final 3 weeks . Phil Haynes who wasn’t listed was praised by Moyer . Yeah the line is better . The team was way better late . Fools good ? We will see . Any word on the meeting with Jodi?

I haven't a clue as to how PFF does their rankings. All I know is that it's widely used by people that know a helluva lot more about football than any of us in here, so it seems likely that it's as objective as one can devise. Do you have a source that you feel is more accurate?

I don't have a better source, but it is suspicious when the line mate of an All Pro is rated higher and isn't considered one of the better G's in the league.

The Jackson acquisition was another example of the team trying to fix the O-line on the cheap. He was cut by the Raiders, and then resigned so they could trade him to Seattle. He did not play in the final Arizona game. Lewis played better at RG than he did at LG, but the veteran Jackson could only play on the right? How is it an easier transition for a fairly successful rookie, than a veteran? When Haynes filled in for Lewis in the Detroit game he was the highest graded O-lineman for Seattle in the game; and then he subbed for Jackson and played well. Who is steering this ship? Coaching is more than teaching, it is also evaluating, and placing resources where they work best.

Personally, I favor getting an entirely different coaching staff, from the top down. Might give the OC a pass, because it is difficult to determine if he had any say at all. A coaching staff of sycophants is not a good thing.

Old but Slow wrote:The Jackson acquisition was another example of the team trying to fix the O-line on the cheap. He was cut by the Raiders, and then resigned so they could trade him to Seattle. He did not play in the final Arizona game. Lewis played better at RG than he did at LG, but the veteran Jackson could only play on the right? How is it an easier transition for a fairly successful rookie, than a veteran? When Haynes filled in for Lewis in the Detroit game he was the highest graded O-lineman for Seattle in the game; and then he subbed for Jackson and played well. Who is steering this ship? Coaching is more than teaching, it is also evaluating, and placing resources where they work best.

Personally, I favor getting an entirely different coaching staff, from the top down. Might give the OC a pass, because it is difficult to determine if he had any say at all. A coaching staff of sycophants is not a good thing.

Hmmm you have some good points that lack context. Phil Haynes when drafted was seen as a talented guard but like many of our better selections he had been hurt off and on causing him to miss opportunities. Now healthy he is showing why he was selected in the 4th rd. Gabe Jackson has played very well as a run blocker but was acquired for his pass pro...the run blocking has been a pleasant surprise. Why Gabe as RG? He started as a LG for the Raiders then switched to RG his final 5 seasons with them. Perhaps he was cut as a cap hit...perhaps in trade conversation he expressed to our GM he was more comfortable at RG...who knows? Maybe Damien Lewis is being groomed as a future C starter/back-up and the experience at both guard positions would give him some exp at how a C sometimes shares Blocking assignments with either guard position...the point is its all speculation until a reporter gets a story from our O-Line coach...at the time of the trade it wasn't known how Damien Lewis would adapt at LG. A fully healthy Phil Haynes is likely to claim one of the guard positions...but again I only speculate.

Speculating is generally what we do here. Good post.

Old but Slow wrote:The Jackson acquisition was another example of the team trying to fix the O-line on the cheap. He was cut by the Raiders, and then resigned so they could trade him to Seattle. He did not play in the final Arizona game. Lewis played better at RG than he did at LG, but the veteran Jackson could only play on the right? How is it an easier transition for a fairly successful rookie, than a veteran? When Haynes filled in for Lewis in the Detroit game he was the highest graded O-lineman for Seattle in the game; and then he subbed for Jackson and played well. Who is steering this ship? Coaching is more than teaching, it is also evaluating, and placing resources where they work best.

Personally, I favor getting an entirely different coaching staff, from the top down. Might give the OC a pass, because it is difficult to determine if he had any say at all. A coaching staff of sycophants is not a good thing.

Screwing up the Offensive Line is par for the course with this regime. Moving Lewis to LG is just another example
of not letting young players along the OL to develop a level of comfort and consistency. Jackson did play LG early
in his career, but LV also cut their own LG, so they could have signed him instead and not disrupted Lewis. As well, they
could have signed Hudson at Center but of course that would have been an improvement and we can’t have that.
So we ended up sending a 5th to LV that we didn’t have to because we couldn’t wait to get an average Guard.

After 10 years it’s clearly obvious that Pete doesn’t know how to build an Offensive Line. Some of us knew it after
year 4, but it should be clear to even those who don’t want to see.

NorthHawk wrote:Screwing up the Offensive Line is par for the course with this regime.
After 10 years it’s clearly obvious that Pete doesn’t know how to build an Offensive Line. Some of us knew it after
year 4, but it should be clear to even those who don’t want to see.

Judgemental and dismissive...no surprise. You and those like you are very dismissive with your laser vision hindsight and quick assumptions. You act like the O-Lines of various NFL teams have interchangeable parts. O-lines reflect many variables based on offensive schemes...QB play style...O-Line Coaching preferences in techniques/hybrid power/zone blocking...even team chemistry with fellow line mates.
PFF grades use some "formula" to derive grades...but what is known on how they are derived? Are they computer driven? ..."graded by a panel?"...or by assigned individual(s). Do their analytics even take into account release times of QB play...or play style of offensive schemes? A QB who releases on avg 2-3 sec vice a QB waiting 4-5 sec for deeper routes to uncover...the O-Line of the quik release QB will see less pressures/sacks...even less QB hits.

If a team is heavy in zone blocking...then lighter more athletic personnel are ideal as when Tom Cable was our O-Line coach. Mike Solari as our current O-Line coach leans more to power blocking in a hybrid of zone blocking/power blocking...so size and hand use are ideal for the linemen you utilize. Some people simplify their view to make their point but in the end its opinion/speculation driven. I am guilty of speculating as well but I try to form my opinions based on the information I have gleaned from various resources...I love knowledgeable people who break down film study by revealing not only what is occurring but WHY... I see PFF as a basic way to compare NFL players and an easy tool to draw a quick conclusion...but not as a final resource to criticize or make a strong opinion on.

I see PFF as a basic way to compare NFL players and an easy tool to draw a quick conclusion...but not as a final resource to criticize or make a strong opinion on.

An attempt to quantify a subjective evaluation. Same as the QBR or Passer Rating. Limited in scope but not invalid. They actually do a fair job, you just have to take it for what it is. If you really want to know all their evaluation criteria it's available on their website.

c_hawkbob wrote:An attempt to quantify a subjective evaluation. Same as the QBR or Passer Rating. Limited in scope but not invalid. They actually do a fair job, you just have to take it for what it is. If you really want to know all their evaluation criteria it's available on their website.

Was unaware of that...thanks for the info...maybe I will "sign-up".