Wags unsure what his future is with the Hawks

[trents]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/329 ... ord-season

I got the impression from his remarks he is expecting to be on another team's roster next season and is expecting big personnel changes in Seattle during the off season because of how this season has transpired.

[obiken]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32959713/seattle-seahawks-bobby-wagner-admits-future-team-uncertain-record-season

I got the impression from his remarks he is expecting to be on another team's roster next season and is expecting big personnel changes in Seattle during the off season because of how this season has transpired.

Cant really blame him.

[Aseahawkfan]

Bobby isn't worth 18 million a year any more. If he wants to take less to stay, maybe he stays. If he wants to try to make another team for less, I guess up to him.

[trents]

Bobby isn't worth 18 million a year any more. If he wants to take less to stay, maybe he stays. If he wants to try to make another team for less, I guess up to him.

That's debatable. According to the article linked above, he's still playing at a very high level:

"The uncertainty over his future comes as he winds down his eighth straight Pro Bowl season, which is tied for the second-most overall Pro Bowls in franchise history. He has been named a first-team All-Pro six times over his first nine seasons and could be on his way to earning that honor for a seventh time, given how productive he has been this year.

Wagner leads the NFL with 170 tackles, which tops his own franchise record that he set in 2016."

But at 31 years of age, I certainly wouldn't try to sign him to a long term contract.

[Hawktawk]

Wags has earned a pretty bad grade from PFF a few times lately . He was unable to subdue a receiver laying on his back allowing him to get up and get a first down on the bears first TD drive . He’s regularly losing leverage on the edge and running people down long after they get the first down . A bunch of tackles downfield is as useful as late touchdowns that look good on the stat line in a loss . I love Bobby . Total class , negotiated his own deals , a ball of fame linebacker . But if we are gonna get value he’s gotta go this off-season . Belichick would have traded him last year . Russell too.

[I-5]

I love Bobby almost as much as I love Kam...but it doesn't make sense to pay him that amount next year. He definitely has earned whatever he can get, though. It's a similar (not exactly the same) as KJ last year. A combination of money and freeing up playing time for a younger player to develop. In this case, though, we don't have anyone as talented as Brooks pushing him.

[tarlhawk]

I love Bobby almost as much as I love Kam...but it doesn't make sense to pay him that amount next year. He definitely has earned whatever he can get, though. It's a similar (not exactly the same) as KJ last year. A combination of money and freeing up playing time for a younger player to develop. In this case, though, we don't have anyone as talented as Brooks pushing him.

B. Wagner is like a skilled surgeon whose hand has started to shake...his mind knows the next action demanded but his hand (in Bobby's case...his body) won't do what the mind is demanding. He still holds value as a placeholder till we can replace his "library" of play recognition...he is like having a Def Coordinator on the field...helping Jordyn Brooks reach his full potential. I think he'll be asked to play with a renegotiated contract perhaps with front loaded bonus. He missed KJ this year...especially on opponents screens but lately even screens are beginning to be diagnosed properly by Jordyn Brooks. We need Bobby at least one more year because our 2022 draft needs to prioritize other team needs. If he can't accept...money will have to be spent to keep MLB from being a liability.

[RiverDog]

This is one of the reasons I said that a decision needs to be made on Pete's future ASAP. With all these rumors swirling around, guys like Bobby don't know what their ultimate fate is. It's frustrating to know that your fate on this team is something that is strictly beyond your control. It's bad enough that the league by nature is a here today, gone tomorrow occupation without the complication of uncertainty over the head coach.

[tarlhawk]

This is one of the reasons I said that a decision needs to be made on Pete's future ASAP. With all these rumors swirling around, guys like Bobby don't know what their ultimate fate is. It's frustrating to know that your fate on this team is something that is strictly beyond your control. It's bad enough that the league by nature is a here today, gone tomorrow occupation without the complication of uncertainty over the head coach.

How does Pete enter into this? Bobby W. is a highly paid NFL star and has been paid appropriately...but any player has to realize that a salary that commands a lot of salary cap % makes you "vulnerable" to not see the length of your contract...The NFL is a business venture where the team ownership profits and entrusts a GM to distribute the contracts and money for attaining/retaining players accordingly. Saavy vets like Duane Brown know how to negotiate with give and take...I'll agree to a 1 Year deal with guaranteed money up front since you have told me the 3 Year deal I really want isn't on the table ...but my agreement with this keeps the "door open" for a "talk" later.

[Hawktawk]

Heard a quote from Bobby yesterday talking about how he’s well aware of the cap situation and hopes he will be a part of the changes . I’m attempting a loose quote “ I’m a pretty good businessman and I have a lot of respect here so I’m going to go into businessman mode and work something out . As many are aware Wags acts as his own agent .

As much as I respected and loved Bobby before I feel even more gratitude and respect . And even knowing he’s likely trade bait he’s rehabbing to get out on the field vs AZ in a meaningless game . The guy is humble , classy , highly intelligent . Hes let his play do the talking . I hope we can keep him around on a restructured deal for a couple more years .

[NorthHawk]

People always talk about some player that they think isn't worth what their contract stipulates.
What many don't consider is if the team has another player that can play at that level or whether that position will take a performance hit if they leave.
If Wags wants to stay, they can surely work out some type of deal to extend that both can be satisfied with.

[Old but Slow]

It is a tough problem. Wags is already making $18 mill, I understand, and there has been speculation that he wants to go to $20 M. At that level, I am saying let him go, with a trade if possible, but probably cut him. I love the guy, and he is a favorite, but too much is too much (deep).

The upcoming draft is rather weak, so the team will need to get into the free agent market, but with better sense than they have shown. Trading for Jackson to play RG, is a good example. He was cut by the Raiders, but then reinstated in order to trade him to the Seahawks. They then kept him at his preferred position, RG, and moved the promising rookie RG to LG, where he struggled and regressed. The result was a downgrade at both positions.

Currently, the team has over $40 M in free cap space, and if they cut Wags, they will have more free agent spending money than all but one team.

I normally want the team to focus on the draft, but this time, with a weak draft and available spending money, they need to focus on bringing in some quality, not cast offs like Jackson.

If Wagner is willing to take a lesser contract, then he should stay, but not at $20 M.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's debatable. According to the article linked above, he's still playing at a very high level:

"The uncertainty over his future comes as he winds down his eighth straight Pro Bowl season, which is tied for the second-most overall Pro Bowls in franchise history. He has been named a first-team All-Pro six times over his first nine seasons and could be on his way to earning that honor for a seventh time, given how productive he has been this year.

Wagner leads the NFL with 170 tackles, which tops his own franchise record that he set in 2016."

But at 31 years of age, I certainly wouldn't try to sign him to a long term contract.

Tackles when you're on the field as much as Bobby was don't mean a whole lot to me. We lost ToP in nearly every game this year. Lots of time to rack up tackles.

He and Jamal Adams are both making 18 mil a year now? Are they both worth it? When you compare what Bobby did to what Jamal did to earn their money, Bobby probably deserves 25 mil a year. But that Jamal contract is just bad and is going to cause us trouble in signing new players and our own players back. Nobody wants to hear Jamal is getting paid for his potential while he's rehabbing for the second year.

[RiverDog]

Tackles when you're on the field as much as Bobby was don't mean a whole lot to me. We lost ToP in nearly every game this year. Lots of time to rack up tackles.

No kidding. I find it an embarrassment that two of the top 3 tacklers in the league are Seahawks, and it's a direct correlation to our league worst time of possession stat. Indeed, the top 5 tacklers in the league are all from teams with losing records and out of the playoff hunt, the other 3 coming from the Falcons, Jets, and Bears. It's sort of like bragging about your punter having the most total yardage.

[tarlhawk]

But that Jamal contract is just bad and is going to cause us trouble in signing new players and our own players back. Nobody wants to hear Jamal is getting paid for his potential while he's rehabbing for the second year.

In 2022 Jamal is a 9 million Cap hit not 18 million...in 2023 he will be an 18 million cap hit so his cap impact this upcoming year is similar to Ziggy Ansah when he was acquired. Last year when Jamal signed his extension he was a 5 Million cap hit.

[tarlhawk]

No kidding. I find it an embarrassment that two of the top 3 tacklers in the league are Seahawks, and it's a direct correlation to our league worst time of possession stat.

Stats alone are seldom indicators of impact...and yes they are inflated this year due to an imbalance of TOP but it still reflects that both are playing quite well and very active when you factor in our Def against the run and our low opponents Points Against. Our avg opponent has twice as much time (and plays) to score against us yet we stay active in stopping them ...hardly an embarassment.

[RiverDog]

No kidding. I find it an embarrassment that two of the top 3 tacklers in the league are Seahawks, and it's a direct correlation to our league worst time of possession stat.

Stats alone are seldom indicators of impact...and yes they are inflated this year due to an imbalance of TOP but it still reflects that both are playing quite well and very active when you factor in our Def against the run and our low opponents Points Against. Our avg opponent has twice as much time (and plays) to score against us yet we stay active in stopping them ...hardly an embarassment.

I can remember back in the 70's when a friend of mine, a die hard Coug fan, was bragging about a punter for WSU by the name of Gavin Hendrick leading the nation in average yards per punt. My trash talking comment was "he also gets more in game practice so it makes sense that he'd be the best"

Our TOP this season is 25:21, the worst in the league. The next highest is Jacksonville at 26:59, or over a minute and a half greater than ours (being below the Jags alone is embarrassment enough). That means that our defense is on the field for a lot more plays than other teams. Having two of the top three of the league's leading tacklers is a direct result of our league worst TOP and represents one of if not the major problem with our team, ie the defense can't get off the field and/or the offense can't stay on it.

On the basis of one season, total tackles is a phony stat that gives players on a bad team an advantage. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're better tacklers/defenders, just that the get more opportunities. Career tackles is a different story as longevity starts to figure into the equation. So yeah, it's an embarrassment.

[tarlhawk]

It doesn't necessarily mean that they're better tacklers/defenders, just that the get more opportunities. Career tackles is a different story. So yeah, it's an embarrassment.

More opportunities only reflect a commensurate glaring impact on totals but its a team effort and early in the season when our secondary was in a state of flux/confusion...it became a necessity. Good tacklers are consistent throughout their career and poor tacklers aren't going to pad their stats no matter how many chances you give them which is why I also consider Points Against...by your estimation that their tackling is merely the result of the heavy imbalance of TOP...then that logic should imply that opponents should have scored on us twice as often...what stopped them? Did our opponents tire out having so many more plays to use?

[NorthHawk]

There are 2 bad things going on with this team.
One is an Offense that can't sustain drives and the other is a Defense that can't get off the field.
The Defense has held the scoring down, but so much time on the field leaves them gassed at the ends of games.
So again, we get back to Offensive and Defensive lines.

[Hawktawk]

There are 2 bad things going on with this team.
One is an Offense that can't sustain drives and the other is a Defense that can't get off the field.
The Defense has held the scoring down, but so much time on the field leaves them gassed at the ends of games.
So again, we get back to Offensive and Defensive lines.

This team has had 5 3 and outs in a row twice this year ( no other team has one ) on one of those days they followed it up with a 4 and out . Our 35 million a year QB has a 46 % completion rate on 3rd down . That is the worst in the league and his average per completion is about 2 yards . It’s why we convert 33% on 3rd down . That’s been the biggest issue with TOP. Yeah the d gives up long drives sometimes but moving the ball consistency instead of chunk or punt and mostly punt they have no chance . IMO the defense is far less of the problem than offensive inconsistency moving chains . The biggest reason is our Qb play on 3rd down as great as he is on every other down . And it started last year .

[RiverDog]

It doesn't necessarily mean that they're better tacklers/defenders, just that the get more opportunities. Career tackles is a different story. So yeah, it's an embarrassment.

More opportunities only reflect a commensurate glaring impact on totals but its a team effort and early in the season when our secondary was in a state of flux/confusion...it became a necessity. Good tacklers are consistent throughout their career and poor tacklers aren't going to pad their stats no matter how many chances you give them which is why I also consider Points Against...by your estimation that their tackling is merely the result of the heavy imbalance of TOP...then that logic should imply that opponents should have scored on us twice as often...what stopped them? Did our opponents tire out having so many more plays to use?

Having Wagner and Brooks in the top 3 tacklers doesn't necessarily mean that they don't deserve to be ranked that high. To the contrary, they wouldn't have so many tackles if they were lesser athletes. But as you said, more opportunities has a direct result on the totals, which is why I'm saying that it's a phony stat. If you play on a top 5 defense, you're not going to get near the opportunities like you would playing on a sucky team like ours.

The top 5 defenses in terms of yards allowed are, in order, the Bills, Panthers, Patriots, Niners, and Bears. Not a single player from any of those teams appear in the top 10 tacklers and only one, Fred Warner of the Niners, appears in the top 25.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_ ... s/dir/desc

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... me/dir/asc

Career totals are a different matter entirely. It isn't every season that Wagner gets as many opportunities as he's had this year. Career totals are a much larger sample size which tends to wash out the effect of an anomaly like he's had this season and his years of service enters into the equation.

BTW, I see where Bobby has been ruled out for tomorrow's game, so it's possible that we've seen the last of him as a Seahawk. What a shame if that's the case, that he couldn't go out with a little more fanfare.

[NorthHawk]

This team has had 5 3 and outs in a row twice this year ( no other team has one ) on one of those days they followed it up with a 4 and out . Our 35 million a year QB has a 46 % completion rate on 3rd down . That is the worst in the league and his average per completion is about 2 yards . It’s why we convert 33% on 3rd down . That’s been the biggest issue with TOP. Yeah the d gives up long drives sometimes but moving the ball consistency instead of chunk or punt and mostly punt they have no chance . IMO the defense is far less of the problem than offensive inconsistency moving chains . The biggest reason is our Qb play on 3rd down as great as he is on every other down . And it started last year .

Yah, I think there's an argument to be made for the issue being the Offense not sustaining drives. Some of us have been saying for years that the Offense hasn't been able to grind out a series on a
regular basis to take time off the clock and give the D time to rest, but we've continually had a problem on 3rd down where teams seem to find a way to convert on 3rd and long. It even happened
during the LoB years so that suggests it might be a weakness in the Defense Pete runs.

But in general, it's two sides of the same coin. Both Lines of Scrimmage need to be upgraded to improve the pass rush and to be able on Offense to control the LoS and impose our will on the other teams DL.

[RiverDog]

But in general, it's two sides of the same coin. Both Lines of Scrimmage need to be upgraded to improve the pass rush and to be able on Offense to control the LoS and impose our will on the other teams DL.

I started a thread a few months ago that argued that very same thing, at least as it applies to the OL. Our drafting of offensive linemen over the past 4 years has been in stark contrast to what it was in the prior 4 years. Our first pick in last year's draft is a prime example. We pass over the best center on the board for a player that at best, was going to be a #3 wide receiver. You can't even make an argument that he was the BPA as projections had him going in the late 2nd or early 3rd rounds.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

[NorthHawk]

It seems to be that we haven't taken care of the foundation but have added window dressing.
I've said before and continue to say the OL is the engine of the Offense and if you don't have the horse power you can't pull the wagon.
I wouldn't have minded the Eskridge pick much as I can see what they want to do, but him being hurt enough this year to miss so many
games doesn't give us a view of what he can really do. However, they passed by a critical foundational piece by not getting one of the
better Centers that were available and with us still running mostly the same Offense we have been for the last 10 years, it doesn't make
as much sense taking a WR over a much more needed position.

[tarlhawk]

It seems to be that we haven't taken care of the foundation but have added window dressing.
I've said before and continue to say the OL is the engine of the Offense and if you don't have the horse power you can't pull the wagon.
I wouldn't have minded the Eskridge pick much as I can see what they want to do, but him being hurt enough this year to miss so many
games doesn't give us a view of what he can really do. However, they passed by a critical foundational piece by not getting one of the
better Centers that were available and with us still running mostly the same Offense we have been for the last 10 years, it doesn't make
as much sense taking a WR over a much more needed position.

The OL can be the engine...I think part of their success was hidden early in the season when Kyle Fuller was forced to step up at center...he's adequate at guard but your center needs experience to help communicate along the line and for the running game at least he needs to kick out to the next level and block a LB.

Pocic is not the answer but he supplied an immediate upgrade...yet the O-Line was hampered by an injured Russ and a handicapped running attack since Russ wasn't lining up under center. Both of those disadvantages have been cleared and now we are getting a better picture of what our O-Line is capable of.

A healthy Phil Haynes is showing why he was drafted...and with a healthy Gabe Jackson and Damien Lewis we can see that a good Center and promising Tackle...perhaps with a 3rd and one of the 4th rd picks...or at least a 4th and a 5th Rd pick...is possible...or a FA acquisition from a team getting rid of cap space.

Our losing season also entitles us to a higher "pecking order" on claiming players waived as cap casualties. We don't want too many FA signings or you'll lose any potential comp picks from your own released players.

[Aseahawkfan]

If we don't upgrade the D-line, we're going to be staying on the field. It's the defensive line that accelerates offensive play as they shorten the amount of time an opponent's offense has to execute plays. If they can sit back there all day without much pressure, they're going to eat you alive and just keep driving down the field. If the RB can blast through your D-line and run over your LBs, then they'll keep on grinding you down. The D-line has eroded to the point we don't have much on that unit. Building the D-line back up should be the focus of the offseason. It's completely unacceptable to have a D-line this weak. It makes opponent offenses look better than they are.

[RiverDog]

If we don't upgrade the D-line, we're going to be staying on the field. It's the defensive line that accelerates offensive play as they shorten the amount of time an opponent's offense has to execute plays. If they can sit back there all day without much pressure, they're going to eat you alive and just keep driving down the field. If the RB can blast through your D-line and run over your LBs, then they'll keep on grinding you down. The D-line has eroded to the point we don't have much on that unit. Building the D-line back up should be the focus of the offseason. It's completely unacceptable to have a D-line this weak. It makes opponent offenses look better than they are.

They have played better in the past few games, but it's difficult to tell whether that's a result of our players doing something differently or whether they happen to be drawing better individual matchups. They obviously haven't played consistently well and are a major weakness on our team.

[Aseahawkfan]

They have played better in the past few games, but it's difficult to tell whether that's a result of our players doing something differently or whether they happen to be drawing better individual matchups. They obviously haven't played consistently well and are a major weakness on our team.

The last few games of the season against garbage teams don't mean a whole lot to me.

We're back to the point we need better DEs and definitely need to upgrade the DT position. We really need to be able to control the LoS with the D-line against quality teams.

[RiverDog]

They have played better in the past few games, but it's difficult to tell whether that's a result of our players doing something differently or whether they happen to be drawing better individual matchups. They obviously haven't played consistently well and are a major weakness on our team.

The last few games of the season against garbage teams don't mean a whole lot to me.

We're back to the point we need better DEs and definitely need to upgrade the DT position. We really need to be able to control the LoS with the D-line against quality teams.

The Rams weren't a garbage team as they have a top 10 offense. Our D played well enough to win, racking up 4 sacks and holding them to 10 points going into the 4th quarter. Our offense let us down in that game, going 3-12 on 3rd/4th down including four 3-and-outs, leading to a 10-minute difference in TOP.

But I do agree that we need to invest in the DL. They are not a strong group.

[Hawktawk]

The Rams weren't a garbage team as they have a top 10 offense. Our D played well enough to win, racking up 4 sacks and holding them to 10 points going into the 4th quarter. Our offense let us down in that game, going 3-12 on 3rd/4th down including four 3-and-outs, leading to a 10-minute difference in TOP.

But I do agree that we need to invest in the DL. They are not a strong group.

Our Defense played well enough to beat the 9ers twice. They played well enough to win a lot of games had the offense and the QB in particular played normally. Russ scored a total of 17 points on the Rams on 7 quarters with 1 TD pass and 2 picks. The offense averaged 9 points his first 3 games back from injury. Our defense has played well enough to keep us competitive in every divisional game so far this year. Let's see what happens today as the Cardinals will be playing for seeding.

[RiverDog]

The Rams weren't a garbage team as they have a top 10 offense. Our D played well enough to win, racking up 4 sacks and holding them to 10 points going into the 4th quarter. Our offense let us down in that game, going 3-12 on 3rd/4th down including four 3-and-outs, leading to a 10-minute difference in TOP.

But I do agree that we need to invest in the DL. They are not a strong group.

Our Defense played well enough to beat the 9ers twice. They played well enough to win a lot of games had the offense and the QB in particular played normally. Russ scored a total of 17 points on the Rams on 7 quarters with 1 TD pass and 2 picks. The offense averaged 9 points his first 3 games back from injury. Our defense has played well enough to keep us competitive in every divisional game so far this year. Let's see what happens today as the Cardinals will be playing for seeding.

Yet against the lowly Bears, ranked 27th in the league in total offense, we give up 26 first downs, allow them to convert 50% of their 3rd downs, then with the game on the line and needing a TD to win, let them drive 80 yards in less than 2 minutes, allowing them to make good on a 2 pt. conversion.

Sorry, man, but this defense doesn't play consistently well from one week to the next.

The Cards don't have a heck of a lot to play for today. They have no chance of getting HFA/first round bye, have to hope for the Rams to lose in order to get a home game, and can't finish any lower than their current #5 seed, so there's a good chance that they rest some of their starters.

[NorthHawk]

Inconsistency is often a sign of lack of talent or talent not fitting the team. For us I think it's the former as Pete Ball relies on having a huge
amount of talent to win. Even in his College days at USC, it was overwhelming talent that got him to the championships, not great schemes
or new ideas. Much like here in Seattle, they played one way, keeping it simple but using great talent. As we have seen it worked early when
we did have great talent, but it's fallen off as the talent declined.

[Hawktawk]

Yet against the lowly Bears, ranked 27th in the league in total offense, we give up 26 first downs, allow them to convert 50% of their 3rd downs, then with the game on the line and needing a TD to win, let them drive 80 yards in less than 2 minutes, allowing them to make good on a 2 pt. conversion.

Sorry, man, but this defense doesn't play consistently well from one week to the next.

The Cards don't have a heck of a lot to play for today. They have no chance of getting HFA/first round bye, have to hope for the Rams to lose in order to get a home game, and can't finish any lower than their current #5 seed, so there's a good chance that they rest some of their starters.

Nobody says the defense is consistently good or even average. I'm saying they played well enough to win had the other unit performed at all. And each unit can contribute to the other effectiveness tor lack thereof through TOP and field position etc., not just by scoring or stopping someone from scoring .

The D got beat by the same QB as Tom Brady and I called that pre game, Foles can really be trouble for anyone if hes on. His passing at will allowed their run game to gash our defense. Meanwhile our guy was throwing it to the tuba player IN KEY MOMENTS while somehow compiling a 110 passer rating with no picks and 2 TD passes. I've learned through film study of both Russel and Genos games that passer rating and stats are jack if you miss the critical pass or take a critical sack as both men did in losses this year.
Most analysts including me put Chicago on Russ due to so many missed throws to open receivers in critical situation leaving the defense out slipping around getting gassed until they folded. Then the sack that turned a 25 yard FG into 39 on a frozen windy snowy night, just incredibly poor situational awareness by a very smart player. And for all the defensive failures the QB had the ball in his hands with a minute and 2 timeouts needing 3 to win and didn't get a first down. Missed locket by 5 feet wide open on 4th down or he still might be running. The look on Locks face.......
All the people who have been saying for 10 years Russ has carried a bad roster on his back can't turn around and say its all the roster fault we're losing now without admitting hes not the same guy lots of Sundays now.

[Hawktawk]

Inconsistency is often a sign of lack of talent or talent not fitting the team. For us I think it's the former as Pete Ball relies on having a huge
amount of talent to win. Even in his College days at USC, it was overwhelming talent that got him to the championships, not great schemes
or new ideas. Much like here in Seattle, they played one way, keeping it simple but using great talent. As we have seen it worked early when
we did have great talent, but it's fallen off as the talent declined.

I agree. I still think its good talent with some great players but PC has never been the kind of x and o guy Belichick is, or even Knox for that matter. Hes a my way or the highway guy. Like Holmy.