HawkShack.com

http://mynorthwest.com/422/2465210/Quinn-says-Irvin-is-really-in-the-right-spot
Interesting.
I agree that he certainly can grow into the role, and we need to keep in mind that he missed four games serving his suspension, and so has had less than a full season to adjust to the new position.
I think he makes a lot of sense at strong side linebacker, when they drafted him, I thought that was the position that made most sense for him, and would be where he ends up; but then Pete said he was drafted to be the spinner, which also makes a ton of sense, and with Clem likely gone...well it just seemed so obvious he would move back.

We'll see how this all turns out, but I wouldn't bet against Irvin or against Quinn making the right decision, and if worse comes to worst, he can always be moved back to his that spinner role.
I think this will be one of the more interesting things to watch next year, (along with Percy Harvin) his progression as a linebacker.

While not all of Irvin's contributions show up in the box score, I'm just not sold on the guy, generally speaking. I think his spot could - ad should - be challenged this offseason. I mean, if the guy wasn't a total reach being drafted in the 1st round, his production so far certainly isn't living up to where he was selected.

One tends to forget that guy doesn't have much time in the NFL, and with PC's situational defense, does not as many opportunities as other backs. But OL for him?
Seems like a natural fit. Next year has to be his break out year for sure.

monkey wrote:http://mynorthwest.com/422/2465210/Quinn-says-Irvin-is-really-in-the-right-spot
Interesting.
I agree that he certainly can grow into the role, and we need to keep in mind that he missed four games serving his suspension, and so has had less than a full season to adjust to the new position.
I think he makes a lot of sense at strong side linebacker, when they drafted him, I thought that was the position that made most sense for him, and would be where he ends up; but then Pete said he was drafted to be the spinner, which also makes a ton of sense, and with Clem likely gone...well it just seemed so obvious he would move back.

We'll see how this all turns out, but I wouldn't bet against Irvin or against Quinn making the right decision, and if worse comes to worst, he can always be moved back to his that spinner role.
I think this will be one of the more interesting things to watch next year, (along with Percy Harvin) his progression as a linebacker.

Pete never said a word about Irvin being drafted to be a "spinner" until last summer. He drafted Irvin as a Leo, and at least for now, they've appeared to have abandoned those plans even though they have an opportunity with Clemons apparently on the way out. The "spinner" position is what Quinn and Pete came up with last summer to get more pass rushers on the field, and Irvin was supposed to be playing it this season. But it looked more like a conventional OLB with him coming out on 3rd downs. It's hard for me to believe that Quinn is satisfied with Irvin's performance. His words are belied by his actions as by the end of the season, Irvin's playing time had decreased significantly. Sounds more like some of Pete's coach speak than an objective assessment.

It's true that Irvin did lose an opportunity for more experience due to his self inflicted suspension, but when you take into account the Hawk's 3 playoff games and over a month's more practices than nearly 2/3 of the league, Irvin has had as much or more time to adjust to his new position than most of the players in the league that change positions. So let's dispense with that excuse. The suspension was 100% his fault anyway. It doesn't earn him a Mulligan.

I don't find Quinn's comments to be very reassuring. The proof will be in the pudding. Nor am I accepting the excuses that some are offering for Irvin's failure (so far) to live up to the expectations one has of a player drafted in the top half of the first round.

This will be Year 3 for Irvin. Time to put up or shut up.

Keep in mind how our FO drafts.
They don't always draft a guy with a specific purpose in mind.
I suspect Pete envisioned Irvin to replace Clemons - and that's what he talked about, but maybe they were wrong and now see him in a different role.
It doesn't mean they made a mistake selecting him, rather they are finding a way to use his special skills.

I keep thinking of the statement last year on the PI forum referencing an article about how they draft and the scout basically said they look for a special quality in a player then change the scheme to fit that talent.
So I suspect they drafted that skill/talent/quality and now are trying him out in various roles.
It would have been great if he had the pass rushing ability of Clemons right from the start, but it hasn't worked out that he is Clemons with an extra gear.
It doesn't mean they don't like what he has but rather the experiment isn't yet finished.

NorthHawk wrote:Keep in mind how our FO drafts.
They don't always draft a guy with a specific purpose in mind.
I suspect Pete envisioned Irvin to replace Clemons - and that's what he talked about, but maybe they were wrong and now see him in a different role.
It doesn't mean they made a mistake selecting him, rather they are finding a way to use his special skills.

I keep thinking of the statement last year on the PI forum referencing an article about how they draft and the scout basically said they look for a special quality in a player then change the scheme to fit that talent.
So I suspect they drafted that skill/talent/quality and now are trying him out in various roles.
It would have been great if he had the pass rushing ability of Clemons right from the start, but it hasn't worked out that he is Clemons with an extra gear.
It doesn't mean they don't like what he has but rather the experiment isn't yet finished.

They'll never admit to that, but I suspect that's one of the major reasons they gave up on the Leo experiment so quickly (one game vs. Atlanta in the playoffs) and why they moved him into this "spinner" role. What confuses me is how they were using him. We hardly ever saw him darting in and out of the LOS between tackles and guards like I had assumed a "spinner" would play. He's either off the field entirely in passing situations or if he is in there, he's dropping back in coverage. He was almost a total non factor in our pass rush.

I understand that our FO marches to a different drummer when it comes to drafting philosophy and they've certainly proven themselves as very insightful in most circumstances, particularly in the later rounds. But that's not the point. Who ever they pick and for what ever their reasoning, the player has to perform, and so far, Irvin hasn't performed. I'm not saying that he won't, just that he hasn't to date.

There's always the possibility he washes out, but it won't be for lack of trying.
As well, with the Defense playing so well last year there wasn't much opportunity to experiment - and probably no incentive to do so.

NorthHawk wrote:There's always the possibility he washes out, but it won't be for lack of trying.
As well, with the Defense playing so well last year there wasn't much opportunity to experiment - and probably no incentive to do so.

That's true. The Seahawk defense, almost by definition, has to be the toughest defense to break into the starting lineup on, and the fact that Irvin is starting for the #1 defense in football and arguably the #1 defense of the past 10 years does say something on his behalf. Nevertheless, it still doesn't exempt him from criticism.

I agree that it's interesting that they'll keep him at OLB, even if I don't find it very reassuring. He was drafted for one reason--to get at the QB--and now it seems like he'll be playing a position where he isn't asked to do that very much. The article says he played SAM against the Rams (and my memory is that this is where he plays), but on the always-crappy depth chart on .com he's listed at the WILL. I can't imagine him taking over Wright's duties as the SAM, because Wright has been a stud at covering TEs and has held up well in the run game. That leaves the WILL, which on most teams would be where you'd put the blitzer, but the Hawks don't blitz enough to really utilize his talent.

I think Irvin can still be a good player, but if he's not playing the LEO, it's hard for me to see a position on this defense that really fits his abilities. That said, Pete is great at maximizing player's unique abilities, so we'll see if this spinner idea pans out.

With Red gone, maybe there will be some changes where Irvin will get more playing time.
Who really knows what they have in mind with the Defense. Maybe they think opponents were starting to figure out how to attack when Red was in and now they want to change it up to keep the advantage.
I just hope they don't outsmart themselves.

Have to learn to walk before you can run fella's and whether people insist it is an "excuse" or otherwise, Irvin showed enough flashes of real dominant LB play last season, to be afforded to LEARN the position, before judging him a failure at the position. The truth of the matter is Seattle does NOT blitz much from the LB spot, they just don't, Smith didn't Wagner didn't Wright didn't hell Avril and Clemmons didn't in their rare opportunities either, there is a HELL of a lot more to playing LB than sack and tackle stats. Irvin has the ability to own that position, whether or not he puts in the work, will be the determining factor, not ability.

They didn't have to blitz the LBs because the front 4 were getting enough pressure.
If this years player changes mean a drop off in pressure, they might blitz more.

NorthHawk wrote:They didn't have to blitz the LBs because the front 4 were getting enough pressure.
If this years player changes mean a drop off in pressure, they might blitz more.

If we don't need Irvin at LB to rush the passer, then we might as well put him back at a situational DE. He's very weak against the run and Malcolm Smith is a better pass defender.

But we'll just have to wait and see what the demands are, if guys like Bennett and Clemons come back, who we might pick up in FA and the draft, etc. I see some flashes of brilliance out of Irvin, like in the Rams game, but looking at the larger picture, I don't see an obvious, natural home for him. One thing's for sure: Next season is going to be critical. We're running out of excuses. Three years is more than enough time to see if a player is going to be a solid contributor. How long until it became apparent that Curry wasn't going to make it?

It amazes me the critical inspection on this. If Irvin was poor against the run, he wouldn't have been on the field or starting. Smith had his shot to take that position early in the season and didn't, obviously there was something Irvin did well, or he wouldn't have started every game he was available minus the SB, and nothing anyone says convinces me that had Seattle played anyone other than the pass happy Broncos that he wouldn't have started that game as well.

Is the theory that he was poor in every aspect at the position, yet they continued to play him, because A that is how the Carroll led team has been conducted ( you know don't play the best player, but the player with draft status or a larger contract) or B that even though it hurt the team Carroll has shown a willingness to continue to give players that don't earn time minutes on the field or C Carroll is unwilling to sit a first round pick ( ala Carpenter, and threatening Thomas with the same).

Irvin was the best player, insisting otherwise, IGNORES Carrolls ENTIRE history since taking over this team.

RiverDog wrote:

NorthHawk wrote:They didn't have to blitz the LBs because the front 4 were getting enough pressure.
If this years player changes mean a drop off in pressure, they might blitz more.

If we don't need Irvin at LB to rush the passer, then we might as well put him back at a situational DE. He's very weak against the run and Malcolm Smith is a better pass defender.

Have to admit this is sort of where my thinking is as well.
Look, this front office just hasn't made many mistakes, and obviously not enough mistakes to offset the big time successes they've had every step of the way...but they have screwed the pooch a few times, as every human does from time to time, and this might just be another one.

I don't WANT to see the Seahawks blitz more, QB's have by and large learned how, not just to pick up blitzes, but to actually anticipate and EXPLOIT blitzes. Our own Russel Wilson loves to pick apart blitzes, he seems to actually play better when teams blitz often, and he's not alone in that.
If we do blitz more, then I can certainly see his obvious value at the SAM spot, and I think the fans will just accept that he's a great rotational LBer and not worry about it..
If we're not going to blitz more though (and I hope we don't!), then I'd much rather see Smith get the majority of playing time as he's better in pass coverage.
It seems to me that, unless they move Irvin back to LEO, he's almost predestined to become a bust, because he's basically playing a position in a system that doesn't fit his skill set very well at all, IMO. Unless he got mad cover skills no one yet realizes...which is possible.

Now, Dan Quinn has essentially said that I am wrong about that, so until proven differently, I will accept that I just don't know what I am talking about...but I cannot quite convince myself of that.

monkey wrote:

RiverDog wrote:

NorthHawk wrote:They didn't have to blitz the LBs because the front 4 were getting enough pressure.
If this years player changes mean a drop off in pressure, they might blitz more.

If we don't need Irvin at LB to rush the passer, then we might as well put him back at a situational DE. He's very weak against the run and Malcolm Smith is a better pass defender.

Have to admit this is sort of where my thinking is as well.
Look, this front office just hasn't made many mistakes, and obviously not enough mistakes to offset the big time successes they've had every step of the way...but they have screwed the pooch a few times, as every human does from time to time, and this might just be another one.

I don't WANT to see the Seahawks blitz more, QB's have by and large learned how, not just to pick up blitzes, but to actually anticipate and EXPLOIT blitzes. Our own Russel Wilson loves to pick apart blitzes, he seems to actually play better when teams blitz often, and he's not alone in that.
If we do blitz more, then I can certainly see his obvious value at the SAM spot, and I think the fans will just accept that he's a great rotational LBer and not worry about it..
If we're not going to blitz more though (and I hope we don't!), then I'd much rather see Smith get the majority of playing time as he's better in pass coverage.
It seems to me that, unless they move Irvin back to LEO, he's almost predestined to become a bust, because he's basically playing a position in a system that doesn't fit his skill set very well at all, IMO. Unless he got mad cover skills no one yet realizes...which is possible.

Now, Dan Quinn has essentially said that I am wrong about that, so until proven differently, I will accept that I just don't know what I am talking about...but I cannot quite convince myself of that.

He's not strong enough against the run to play Leo. He has a hard time getting off blocks on plays that come right at him, and unless we come up with a run stopping replacement for Big Red, you can expect teams to run the ball on us more. IMO that's why we didn't see him at Leo this season even when we had a need with Clemons coming off major knee surgery. Something had to have changed Pete's mind, as Leo was the projected position for him when he was drafted.

And actually, I didn't think Irvin's pass coverage skills were all that bad. It's just that Malcolm is better at it.

If Irvin has a skill that he is good at but not useful for our team, then we ought to seek out some trade opportunities while he's still under contract. Otherwise, I think they should put him back to where he was as a rookie, ie a situational pass rusher. I don't think there's a 3 down position he can play on this team, keeping in mind that this is arguably the best defense in the past 10-15 years. There's not going to be too many places to fit a marginal player into. You almost have to have all pro talent to be a 3 down player on this defense, and I don't think anyone's going to argue that Irvin has that kind of talent.