Gruden

[Hawktawk]

Anyone else following this ? Gruden was caught on tape in 2011 saying NFLPA rep Demaurice Smith has “lips the size of Goodyear tires” there are calls for him to resign or be fired and Mark Davis didn’t sound too amused or supportive . Gruden apologized and tried to infer he was talking about smiths honesty during the lockout but it just don’t pass the smell test . My guess is if he were 1 and 3 instead of 3-1 it would be a bigger problem for him but it will be Intersting to see how his team responds .

[c_hawkbob]

My wife has said the same of Angelina Jolie. Not saying there was not a racist component to what he said but sometimes an observation is just an observation.

[Hawktawk]

Cmon buddy . I’ve laughed at the appearance of women who seem to think pumping so much Botox their lips look like bratwurst is pretty Z referring to a black mans lips as black tires is not ok for anyone especially a coach .

[c_hawkbob]

I agree, but less so as a spontaneous aside to a friend that someone captured than in a presser or lockerroom speech or something. He's apologized, I'm good with that.

[NorthHawk]

Gruden should have said something like "I would have said the same thing if Mick Jagger was in that position".

[Hawktawk]

It’s gonna blow over unless there’s a bunch more stuff like it . I assure the PC police are sleuthing

[RiverDog]

I agree, but less so as a spontaneous aside to a friend that someone captured than in a presser or lockerroom speech or something. He's apologized, I'm good with that.

I'm with Cbob on this one. It's never acceptable to make fun of an uncontrollable, physical attribute whether it be a stutterer, a cleft lip, or an Asian's eyes. If there were other evidence that Gruden is prone to making these types of insensitive comments and had done so more recently, then it might be different. But it happened 10 years ago, Gruden admitted it was wrong, and has since apologized. Time to move on.

[Hawktawk]

So far what I’ve gathered is he is likely looking at a large fine and diversity training as opposed to suspension. That is assuming no more damaging statements are discovered. It was uncovered as part of the league initiated wide ranging investigation of racial bias within the sport . Gruden was an analyst at the time which is also a factor as opposed to an employee . With this revelation it there are other closet racists who are on the record they are probably sweating bullets .

[tarlhawk]

One racial comment made is not indicative of a racist. Racists strongly believe in their comments and would not back down if called out. People say careless things often in company who are silently offended...but people will often apologize if their comment caused unintended hurt...unless they are racist at heart and intended hate or ridicule. Most people change as culture changes unless they hold personal beliefs which run deeper. An opinion made 10 years ago is not indicative that they feel the same now. Vegan humor made at their expense is not race dependent so somehow its more acceptable. Its just as careless to judge a person without making the effort to understand the individual and not just his stereotype. Racists as I've encountered them are not "closet racists" but have a strong hatred motivating their aim to hurt/ridicule..."closet racists" is a stereotype term.

[RiverDog]

So far what I’ve gathered is he is likely looking at a large fine and diversity training as opposed to suspension. That is assuming no more damaging statements are discovered. It was uncovered as part of the league initiated wide ranging investigation of racial bias within the sport . Gruden was an analyst at the time which is also a factor as opposed to an employee . With this revelation it there are other closet racists who are on the record they are probably sweating bullets .

The comment wasn't part of a league wide investigation. It was discovered when they were looking into Dan Snyder's WFT:

The league reportedly became aware of the email during its investigation of the Washington Football Team. Gruden was communicating with former Washington CEO Bruce Allen, who worked with Gruden in Tampa and Oakland. In 2011, Gruden worked as the main analyst for Monday Night Football.

The WFT investigation resulted in a review of, per the report, more than 650,000 emails. Earlier this week, a summary of that review was presented to Commissioner Roger Goodell. The league said it will be sharing emails regarding Gruden to the Raiders.

https://heavy.com/sports/las-vegas-raid ... -reaction/

There's no way that the league can get away with fining Gruden if he wasn't an employee at the time and thus not subject to their code of conduct policy. Gruden might want to accept a fine if they levied one just as a way to put the matter to rest, but there isn't a court in the land that would let an employer discipline an employee over a perfectly legal action when he wasn't even employed by them at the time, not to mention the amount of time that has elapsed since. Hell, most crimes have a statute of limitations of 7 years.

[RiverDog]

One racial comment made is not indicative of a racist. Racists strongly believe in their comments and would not back down if called out. People say careless things often in company who are silently offended...but people will often apologize if their comment caused unintended hurt...unless they are racist at heart and intended hate or ridicule. Most people change as culture changes unless they hold personal beliefs which run deeper. An opinion made 10 years ago is not indicative that they feel the same now. Vegan humor made at their expense is not race dependent so somehow its more acceptable. Its just as careless to judge a person without making the effort to understand the individual and not just his stereotype. Racists as I've encountered them are not "closet racists" but have a strong hatred motivating their aim to hurt/ridicule..."closet racists" is a stereotype term.

I agree. A true racist would never work in an environment where 70% of the players and a good percentage of coaches are black. True, there are people that harbor more benign, sometimes unconscious racism, and Gruden may, indeed, be one of these types. But I wouldn't characterize them as "closet" racists, which suggests a consciousness of guilt.

[trents]

My wife has said the same of Angelina Jolie. Not saying there was not a racist component to what he said but sometimes an observation is just an observation.

Agreed. If he had made that same remark about a white person, no one would have bat an eye. But it is automatically assumed to be a racist comment when it is made about someone who happens to be African American.

[RiverDog]

My wife has said the same of Angelina Jolie. Not saying there was not a racist component to what he said but sometimes an observation is just an observation.

Agreed. If he had made that same remark about a white person, no one would have bat an eye. But it is automatically assumed to be a racist comment when it is made about someone who happens to be African American.

But there's a difference. It's not a trope used to describe a characteristic of white folks, but it is for blacks. It's similar to calling a black "watermelon" or "boy". It was an insensitive, hurtful comment that Gruden made and would have earned him a knuckle sandwich if he'd been in a different crowd. But it happened a long time ago, he recognized it was wrong, and apologized.

[obiken]

Its stupid and 0 excuse the facts are: 1. it was 10 years ago. 2. He has given a heartfelt apology. 3. Its a matter of how much the league sanctions him. 4. Will it have an effect going forward on the black players in the locker room.

[RiverDog]

Its stupid and 0 excuse the facts are: 1. it was 10 years ago. 2. He has given a heartfelt apology. 3. Its a matter of how much the league sanctions him. 4. Will it have an effect going forward on the black players in the locker room.

The "going forward" all depends on how successful the team is. If they win, then all is forgotten. Lose and every molehill becomes a mountain.

[obiken]

The "going forward" all depends on how successful the team is. If they win, then all is forgotten. Lose and every molehill becomes a mountain.

Thats the truth. Here's a question for you Riv, would it be a good excuse for the Raiders to get out from under his contract? He hasnt IMHO, done all that well for how much he is paid.

[RiverDog]

The "going forward" all depends on how successful the team is. If they win, then all is forgotten. Lose and every molehill becomes a mountain.

Thats the truth. Here's a question for you Riv, would it be a good excuse for the Raiders to get out from under his contract? He hasnt IMHO, done all that well for how much he is paid.

No. The emails all occurred while Gruden was an analyst on ESPN and not an employee of the Raiders. It's the same reason why the league is going to have a tough time disciplining him, because he wasn't covered under their personal conduct policy. If the Raiders choose to terminate him, they'll have to honor the terms in his contract.

I agree with you that hiring Gruden was an unwise decision. Mark Davis was reacting to a certain segment of the Raider fan base that wanted to re-live their glory days as Gruden was the last coach to take them to the Super Bowl. He was hired do to politics, not because he was the best man for the job. I don't think any other team would have hired him, at least not for the amount of money the Raiders are paying him.

As a side note, during the extended halftime due to the thunderstorm in KC last night, two black men, Mike Tirico, whom had worked with Gruden for years and said that he saw no evidence whatsoever of racism in Gruden's personality, and Tony Dungy noted that Gruden had apologize and encouraged people to accept that apology and move on.

[Stream Hawk]

I understand your rationale, River. However, in the real world if one were found to have done or said very rude/racist comments under a previous employer, isn’t it up to current employer’s discretion to let them go? For instance, I work for a tribe, wouldn’t my current position/career be at risk if I were to have emailed Native American derogatory slurs toward a Native American leader 10 years back?

[NorthHawk]

If I may add, the NFL is all about protecting its brand, so Stream Hawk might have a good point.
As well, aren't the broadcasters considered to have an affiliation with the NFL, in the sense that the NFL sets rules of conduct regarding their product?
If so, and he violated such an agreement they might be able to discipline him in some manner.

[RiverDog]

I understand your rationale, River. However, in the real world if one were found to have done or said very rude/racist comments under a previous employer, isn’t it up to current employer’s discretion to let them go? For instance, I work for a tribe, wouldn’t my current position/career be at risk if I were to have emailed Native American derogatory slurs toward a Native American leader 10 years back?

In my opinion, if what you said or wrote was legal, and a racial trope, although insensitive as hell, is still protected by the 1st Amendment that guarantees free speech, if it did not occur while you were employed, or if you were employed but what you said/wrote did not violate any written tribal policy that you had read and acknowledged, then the tribe would be subject to an unjust termination charge should they fire you.

[RiverDog]

If I may add, the NFL is all about protecting its brand, so Stream Hawk might have a good point. As well, aren't the broadcasters considered to have an affiliation with the NFL, in the sense that the NFL sets rules of conduct regarding their product? If so, and he violated such an agreement they might be able to discipline him in some manner.

The difference between the NFL and other employers is their personal conduct policy. Most do not have a clause like the first paragraph which reads:

It is a privilege to be part of the National Football League. Everyone who is part of the league must refrain from “conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in” the NFL. This includes owners, coaches, players, other team employees, game officials, and employees of the league office, NFL Films, NFL Network, or any other NFL business.

The NFL can get away with it due to what you said, that they have a brand that they have to protect, in other words, a business necessity. It's quite possible that other employers could have similar clauses, but they would have to show that their policy is a business necessity. It would be pretty hard to argue that a person whose job was stocking shelves at WalMart was endangering their company's brand by sending out an email to an individual that used a racial trope.

The answer to your question can be found in the last sentence in the opening paragraph of the league's personal conduct policy, which reads This includes owners, coaches, players, other team employees, game officials, and employees of the league office, NFL Films, NFL Network, or any other NFL business.

Is ESPN an "NFL business"? I don't think so. They are a vendor.

[NorthHawk]

or any other NFL business.

I think ESPN could be considered a contractor hired by the NFL to promote its business.
In that light, there may be a path to discipline, but I'm in no way a lawyer however so I'm just offering an uninformed opinion.

[RiverDog]

or any other NFL business.

I think ESPN could be considered a contractor hired by the NFL to promote its business. In that light, there may be a path to discipline, but I'm in no way a lawyer however so I'm just offering an uninformed opinion.

I'm not a lawyer, either. But I have seen other, similar policies, such as safety related stuff like lock out/tag out, hearing/eye protection, fall restraint, etc. They are worded "all contractors, sub contractors, vendors, visitors"...etc. if it is meant to apply to non employees. It's my opinion that a court would rule that an ESPN employee would not be subject to the league's personal conduct policy.

I'm sure that this debate, ie what to do about Gruden, is going on as we speak. They may take a non disciplinary path, such as requiring him to attend sensitivity training, which they can require of any employee at any time and for any reason, or a paid suspension that would bar him from participating in games but not penalize him financially, pay him to sit at home. They could also negotiate a fine with Gruden, one that he would agree not to appeal and that the league would agree to donate to a charity.

Edit: Another comment about the application of the personal conduct policy. As an employer/supervisor that has been involved in termination cases held in front of administrative judges/arbitrators, we had to produce signed documentation that the employee had read and agreed to comply with stated policies, show that they were posted in conspicuous places, etc. In some cases, the judge would actually ask the employee if they were aware of it, "is that your signature?" I doubt that the NFL made all of the broadcasters at ESPN and other networks not associated with the league sign documents saying that they agreed to comply with the NFL's personal conduct policy.

[NorthHawk]

Trudgen has apparently informed his staff he will resign according to PFT.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... ll-resign/

[RiverDog]

Well, that settles that!

[Aseahawkfan]

They really went in hard on Gruden.

[RiverDog]

It will be interesting to see if there was some type of monetary settlement, if the Raiders agreed to pay off at least part of his remaining contract in exchange for his resignation. IMO there was no way they could have fired him and had it stand up in court or in arbitration.

[obiken]

It will be interesting to see if there was some type of monetary settlement, if the Raiders agreed to pay off at least part of his remaining contract in exchange for his resignation. IMO there was no way they could have fired him and had it stand up in court or in arbitration.

He resigned! Wow, thats unbelievable. The Homo stuff was way more damaging.

[RiverDog]

Here's what I don't get. According to reports, Gruden "casually and frequently unleashed misogynistic and homophobic language" to denigrate NFL peers from 2010 all the way to 2018, when he rejoined the Raiders." If that's true, then why did the Raiders hire him in the first place? Why didn't the league share this information with the Raiders before he signed on the dotted line?

[Stream Hawk]

Not to say I told you so, but I kind a can here. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. I think this is a case of way too many skeletons in the public information closet. He deserves to go.

[RiverDog]

Not to say I told you so, but I kind a can here. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. I think this is a case of way too many skeletons in the public information closet. He deserves to go.

Not sure where it was in this forum that you said that he would or should be fired or that Gruden had skeletons in the closet, but I agree with you that he deserves to go.

Up until a couple of hours ago, all we had to go on was one email, sent ten years ago and when Gruden was not an employee of the NFL, to base our opinions on. This new information changes everything.

[Hawktawk]

See ya. No sympathy . He’s like Meyer , a jack wagon that has survived and thrived but times up. People say stupid stuff sometimes but it was a frame of mind for him. What an intolerant idiot . His career in anything is over

[obiken]

See ya. No sympathy . He’s like Meyer , a jack wagon that has survived and thrived but times up. People say stupid stuff sometimes but it was a frame of mind for him. What an intolerant idiot . His career in anything is over

No, Meyer is a jerk and Gruden is a character, thats a vast difference. Gruden was not doing well as a coach the 2nd time around. Like River said this was nothing till now. Why now? This has been out there for years; stuff gets released when somebody wants it released this story is not over.

[trents]

Gruden will not be making any Corona beer commercials anymore. His value as a spokesman, analyst, commentator, endorser, etc. is zippo now. I hope he's been wise with his money.

[obiken]

Gruden will not be making any Corona beer commercials anymore. His value as a spokesman, analyst, commentator, endorser, etc. is zippo now. I hope he's been wise with his money.

I agree, I like Jon but the Q word for gays is out, and there was other stuff. He is done. On the money Trents if he hasnt he is stupid! Sorry I have zero sympathy for guys that poop off millions while the rest of chickens scratch the earth for a living. That goes for Actors, players, coaches, CEO's ETC.

[Stream Hawk]

Not sure where it was in this forum that you said that he would or should be fired or that Gruden had skeletons in the closet, but I agree with you that he deserves to go.

Up until a couple of hours ago, all we had to go on was one email, sent ten years ago and when Gruden was not an employee of the NFL, to base our opinions on. This new information changes everything.[/quote]

No worries, River. I was probably more thinking it than stating it. My point was that if there was some (extremely) damaging statements about your current employer, then it shouldn’t matter when it was said. Gruden really is/or was a POS.

[Hawk Sista]

Here's what I don't get. According to reports, Gruden "casually and frequently unleashed misogynistic and homophobic language" to denigrate NFL peers from 2010 all the way to 2018, when he rejoined the Raiders." If that's true, then why did the Raiders hire him in the first place? Why didn't the league share this information with the Raiders before he signed on the dotted line?

Because they protect their own.

Sorry to be preachy… but Real world alert (& no offense to you guys who are likely white, straight, and/or male). As a gay, female, higher-level leader of 100s of employees… I heard Gruden-like $h!++y ass comments my entire career. I have been pinned to a wall and kissed. I have been groped. There have been numerous gestures, eye rolls, chiding jokes in meetings, derogatory comments, and even insinuations I was romantically vying for affairs w/ younger female employees (even though I’ve been a faithful spouse for a quarter decade), weight jokes, “give me a bj and show em you ain’t a dyke” comments etc. from 1983 to my retirement date in early summer (which was such a freeing time because I finally didn’t have to pretend that $h1+ is ok anymore to save my job.) It got better in the 2010s for a bit until Trump made bigotry/misogyny great again.

I worked in the Parks industry, was largely respected by subordinates, peers, bosses, and the community….& yet the ish I had to endure even in “blue” California up to five months ago when I retired was constant. Shudder to think living out n middle Tennessee, or the NFL. All to say - in a macho, male-dominated industry made up of mostly white males - I know what we are reading about Chuckle’s comments & behavior pales in comparison to what he actually said/did/feels/believes. So all due respect, EFF him and good riddance.

[RiverDog]

Not sure where it was in this forum that you said that he would or should be fired or that Gruden had skeletons in the closet, but I agree with you that he deserves to go.

Up until a couple of hours ago, all we had to go on was one email, sent ten years ago and when Gruden was not an employee of the NFL, to base our opinions on. This new information changes everything.

No worries, River. I was probably more thinking it than stating it. My point was that if there was some (extremely) damaging statements about your current employer, then it shouldn’t matter when it was said. Gruden really is/or was a POS.

I was speaking from a legal perspective, not from a personal one. Legally there wasn't a lot that the Raiders or the NFL could have done unless some of those emails had been authored after he accepted the HC job in 2018. I suspect that's one of the reasons why Gruden resigned rather than the Raiders firing him.

Especially given that it was a sustained, lengthy string of slurs and not just a one time slip of the tongue uttered during a fit of rage like it had appeared earlier (not that it makes it right), I agree with the POS characterization.

[RiverDog]

Here's what I don't get. According to reports, Gruden "casually and frequently unleashed misogynistic and homophobic language" to denigrate NFL peers from 2010 all the way to 2018, when he rejoined the Raiders." If that's true, then why did the Raiders hire him in the first place? Why didn't the league share this information with the Raiders before he signed on the dotted line?

Because they protect their own.

Sorry to be preachy… but Real world alert (& no offense to you guys who are likely white, straight, and/or male). As a gay, female, higher-level leader of 100s of employees… I heard Gruden-like $h!++y ass comments my entire career. I have been pinned to a wall and kissed. I have been groped. There have been numerous gestures, eye rolls, chiding jokes in meetings, derogatory comments, and even insinuations I was romantically vying for affairs w/ younger female employees (even though I’ve been a faithful spouse for a quarter decade), weight jokes, “give me a bj and show em you ain’t a dyke” comments etc. from 1983 to my retirement date in early summer (which was such a freeing time because I finally didn’t have to pretend that $h1+ is ok anymore to save my job.) It got better in the 2010s for a bit until Trump made bigotry/misogyny great again.

I worked in the Parks industry, was largely respected by subordinates, peers, bosses, and the community….& yet the ish I had to endure even in “blue” California up to five months ago when I retired was constant. Shudder to think living out n middle Tennessee, or the NFL. All to say - in a macho, male-dominated industry made up of mostly white males - I know what we are reading about Chuckle’s comments & behavior pales in comparison to what he actually said/did/feels/believes. So all due respect, EFF him and good riddance.

Thanks for your comments, Sis. I'm truly sorry for what you've had to go through.

But I'm not sure that explains why the Raiders/NFL hired him. The NFL may be a good ole boys club, but that doesn't explain their ignorance of those emails. They had to have known, or should have known, that Gruden was one helluva risk to their brand name if he had sent out as many messages using that kind of language in them over what appears to be 7 years. Someone had to have been reading and forwarding them to their superiors. Why did it take an investigation into WFT for them to be revealed?

The other player in this saga that hasn't been mentioned is ESPN. Was Gruden sending the emails as an analyst over ESPN's domain? Did anyone with them know about it? Although what to do about Gruden has been resolved, there's still a lot of questions to be answered.

My point is that there are more villains in this story besides Gruden.

I never have liked Gruden even during his first stint as HC of the Raiders and hated him on MNF. He seemed to me to be arrogant, smug, and a kind of know-it-all. Although I'm surprised at his stupidity, I'm not surprised about his character.

[NorthHawk]

Apparently it was part of the NFL investigation of the WFT and all correspondence. This happened between Bruce Allen and Gruden
but it was archived as part of the WFT evidence. Had this been personal correspondence, it never would have been revealed.