Jody Allen

[RiverDog]

It's been a rough week. We're 1-2 and if the team isn't about to implode, the fan base is. Across social media and the other forum I frequent, there are tons of comments about firing Norton, firing Pete, trading Russell, and so on. But one thing that none of us really know much about is the person (actually persons) that would be called upon to make such a decision.

I came across this video, timely in that it was made this past Tuesday, that gives a little bit of an insight to Ms. Allen and the Seahawk management, talks about other ownership styles, gives examples of other teams that were/are in the same predicament that we find ourselves in, etc. It's 22 minutes long, but definitely worth the time.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jo ... ORM=WRVORC

[tarlhawk]

This video was good for identifying just who our upper management is but uses only reasonable speculation for Carroll being allowed to continue. Anyone who understands football knows luck is not a heavy factor for NFL success. So what has Carroll and Schneider done since their arrival? On a basic sense they instilled confidence throughout the organization. Our team before they came here was a mixed hope of lowered expectations with a jilted feeling upon finally getting to a Super Bowl only to see no fullfillment of those dreams. Winners of games hardly mention bad calls by the refs...emotions run high because football is a game of passionate emotions should one make that committment.

From 2010 till last years NFC championship winning record of 12-4, our team has won 10+ games eight times (2012-2016 and 2018-2020). Was that luck? Our first draft under Carroll and Schneider netted us high value in our two first round picks (Earl Thomas and Russell Okung). Our Legion-of-Boom was drafted under PC/JS. Has the game truly passed them by? How many times have we heard from new arrivals/free agents that they love the culture that exists here because of Pete trying to keep the love of football separate from the business it has become (whenever Big Money is at play). Hmmm our other conference rivals have been getting great drafts. Is this really a fault of management or the reality of an NFL organization dedicated to stopping the existence of Dynasties and pushing the "bottom dwellers" out of mediocrity? Games decided before the first snap is even played are a killer to TV ratings...team parity is a must! How have we avoided the NFL's stacked rules of "fair" play? An excellent coach...a shrewd GM...and a sudden appearance of an elite QB not taken in a first round. (New England somehow found these same "keys")

Our other conference opponents? Cards 2010 (5-11) 2012 (5-11) 2016 (7-8-1) 2018 (3-13) 2019 (5-10-1) Do we accept "being like them"?
How about those 49'ers? 2010 (6-10) 2015 (5-11) 2016 (2-14) 2017 (6-10) 2018 (4-12) 2020 (6-10)...or hey the Rams have had some great drafts? 2010 (7-9) 2011 (2-14) 2012 (7-8-1) 2013 (7-9) 2014 (6-10) 2015 (7-9) and 2016 (4-12). We still have all three keys to our consistent winning ways but now we want to turn on them?? Pete (too old) John S. (forgot how to draft good players) and even Russell (Selfish and petulant)?? Really??

[RiverDog]

I started the thread w/ the video more as a FYI thing as there's been a lot of speculation, in here and elsewhere, about just what kind of a person our owner is. A lot of folks are saying that she doesn't care, much less know a lot about football, that she doesn't have the courage to make the kinds of tough decisions that NFL owners are called upon to make, and the video does a good job of outlining some of the pros and cons to having an active vs. passive owner and give some relevant examples. It also talks some about other franchises experiences with parting ways or sticking with coaches that win more games than they lose, ie the Packers and Steelers.

However, I'm more than happy to give you my take on the subject. After the conclusion of last season, which ended in a very embarrassing wild card playoff to the Rams, a team we had beaten just a few weeks ago, by a quarterback with a broken hand that they quickly dispatched in the offseason and in which our QB had one of the worst games of his career, I concluded that if we didn't show some type of progress towards becoming a serious SB contender, that I was off the bandwagon, meaning that I would be open to firing Pete and trading Russell.

I didn't put a tangible goal, such as NFCCG or bust, rather it's a subjective feeling, similar to what I had when we lost to Atlanta in the playoffs following the 2011 season, that this team is on the cusp of another Lombardi. We seem to have hit a plateau, playing just well enough to make the playoffs but not well enough to advance very far. My expectations bar has been raised. Simply making the playoffs is no longer good enough.



I fully realize the consequences, that we could be horrible for a number of years and turn into the west coast version of the Lions or Jets, with a revolving door in the head coaches office. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

[tarlhawk]

I didn't put a tangible goal, such as NFCCG or bust, rather it's a subjective feeling, similar to what I had when we lost to Atlanta in the playoffs following the 2011 season, that this team is on the cusp of another Lombardi. We seem to have hit a plateau, playing just well enough to make the playoffs but not well enough to advance very far. My expectations bar has been raised. Simply making the playoffs is no longer good enough.

I fully realize the consequences, that we could be horrible for a number of years and turn into the west coast version of the Lions or Jets, with a revolving door in the head coaches office. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

The records of our opponents is meant to be sobering so sound reasoning replaces the frustration of emotions unmet. You are willing to accept the highest peaks (SB appearance) with the lowest lows (2-4) wins maybe. Trust is hard to win continually with a teams fan base...but seriously...show me a team (not named the Patriots) who has blessed their fans with continued winning success?? Why do we draft offensive linemen much later than fans would like? (exceptions exist...ie Ifedi) because the trend in College is a spread offense...very few true Pass Pro teams exist in college now. Current College play doesn't require sustaining blocks like it used to so if all you need is run blockers...take that chance! Instead you look for athleticism and decent football IQ knowing their first two years will need good coaching. This recognition of what colleges are putting out lie behind trading draft capital for more proven veterans.

With the NFL salary cap you have to choose where to ease up on money...and pay difference makers...and sometimes the luxury of keeping a fan favorite around (Wilson/Wagner/Lockett) Free agency and existing contracts often forces the hands of a GM. Some teams really don't want to help us in drafting/trading. So why trade Witherspoon when it implies Tre Flowers and DJ Reed emerge instead? One main reason...Flowers and DJ Reed will crash into an opponents rush...they both tackle well and are aggressive. Witherspoon like a lot of other good corners are about coverage and not about "getting dirty".

[RiverDog]

The records of our opponents is meant to be sobering so sound reasoning replaces the frustration of emotions unmet. You are willing to accept the highest peaks (SB appearance) with the lowest lows (2-4) wins maybe. Trust is hard to win continually with a teams fan base...but seriously...show me a team (not named the Patriots) who has blessed their fans with continued winning success??

The author of the video gave two examples: The Packers and Steelers. In the past 28 seasons dating back to 1992, the Packers have had just 4 losing seasons. Over the same period of time, the Steelers have had just two losing seasons. We are at a similar juncture. Over the past 15 years, we've had an excellent W/L record and we absolutely own the NFC West. But in my opinion, that's no longer enough. The bar has been raised. I want more.

Why do we draft offensive linemen much later than fans would like? (exceptions exist...ie Ifedi) because the trend in College is a spread offense...very few true Pass Pro teams exist in college now. Current College play doesn't require sustaining blocks like it used to so if all you need is run blockers...take that chance! Instead you look for athleticism and decent football IQ knowing their first two years will need good coaching. This recognition of what colleges are putting out lie behind trading draft capital for more proven veterans.

With the NFL salary cap you have to choose where to ease up on money...and pay difference makers...and sometimes the luxury of keeping a fan favorite around (Wilson/Wagner/Lockett) Free agency and existing contracts often forces the hands of a GM. Some teams really don't want to help us in drafting/trading. So why trade Witherspoon when it implies Tre Flowers and DJ Reed emerge instead? One main reason...Flowers and DJ Reed will crash into an opponents rush...they both tackle well and are aggressive. Witherspoon like a lot of other good corners are about coverage and not about "getting dirty".

I agree about your take on offensive linemen not being NFL ready when they come out of college. Due to the type of offense they typically run, it's more difficult to identify talent. But I don't know if that justifies not spending money or draft picks on the OL. We seldom pursue sign able free agent OL's.

I also agree with you regarding your take on GM's having their hands forced in keeping fan favorites. IMO the Shaun Alexander signing was a good example. He was our first and only league MVP and not resigning him wasn't an option for Tim Ruskell. But why should that justify keeping Pete or John?

[tarlhawk]

I agree about your take on offensive linemen not being NFL ready when they come out of college. Due to the type of offense they typically run, it's more difficult to identify talent. But I don't know if that justifies not spending money or draft picks on the OL. We seldom pursue sign able free agent OL's.

I also agree with you regarding your take on GM's having their hands forced in keeping fan favorites. IMO the Shaun Alexander signing was a good example. He was our first and only league MVP and not resigning him wasn't an option for Tim Ruskell. But why should that justify keeping Pete or John?

Did Duane Brown/Gabe Jackson...not represent money/draft picks well spent?? Does Damien Lewis represent a saavy draft investment?? Justin Britt more so than Pocic but still..Ifedi I already identified as a casualty of the modern trend of TE to quick release into their route...Left tackles are your best Pass Pro linemen while Right tackles are mainly run blockers first with a good TE buddy to help block ...then slip out into a check down option route. Jimmy G. was an exaggeration of a modern quick release TE who barely threw in a token elbow to "help" . If you represent an opponents best pass rusher and you study film showing Ifedi (alone with the TE always gone) you begin salivating as game day arrives. Left one on one with the other teams best pass rusher you either "pancake" (knock him to the ground) or you try to desquise your holding hoping the play called doesn't take long to develop.

Asking Kyle Fuller to recognize the defensive line alignment and set the entire line when pass pro is called for...is asking a lot. A center is like a scaled-down QB at calling out pass pro...so instead you see Russell making "adjustments" of his own as he comes under center. You "justify" keeping Pete and JS around and together because you trust they are doing a myriad of little things "behind the scenes" to keep our success intact. This video speaks highly of Paul Allen as a trustworthy owner...and up until he passed away he also showed trust in Pete and John. The business bottom line is continued success while odds are "stacked" to keep you from becoming a dynasty. A fans bottom line is winning a super bowl. A successful GM has to wait till 3/4 of his GM colleagues make selections off a waiver wire and also off a draft board.

[RiverDog]

I agree about your take on offensive linemen not being NFL ready when they come out of college. Due to the type of offense they typically run, it's more difficult to identify talent. But I don't know if that justifies not spending money or draft picks on the OL. We seldom pursue sign able free agent OL's.

I also agree with you regarding your take on GM's having their hands forced in keeping fan favorites. IMO the Shaun Alexander signing was a good example. He was our first and only league MVP and not resigning him wasn't an option for Tim Ruskell. But why should that justify keeping Pete or John?

Did Duane Brown/Gabe Jackson...not represent money/draft picks well spent?? Does Damien Lewis represent a saavy draft investment?? Justin Britt more so than Pocic but still..Ifedi I already identified as a casualty of the modern trend of TE to quick release into their route...Left tackles are your best Pass Pro linemen while Right tackles are mainly run blockers first with a good TE buddy to help block ...then slip out into a check down option route. Jimmy G. was an exaggeration of a modern quick release TE who barely threw in a token elbow to "help" . If you represent an opponents best pass rusher and you study film showing Ifedi (alone with the TE always gone) you begin salivating as game day arrives. Left one on one with the other teams best pass rusher you either "pancake" (knock him to the ground) or you try to desquise your holding hoping the play called doesn't take long to develop.

Asking Kyle Fuller to recognize the defensive line alignment and set the entire line when pass pro is called for...is asking a lot. A center is like a scaled-down QB at calling out pass pro...so instead you see Russell making "adjustments" of his own as he comes under center. You "justify" keeping Pete and JS around and together because you trust they are doing a myriad of little things "behind the scenes" to keep our success intact. This video speaks highly of Paul Allen as a trustworthy owner...and up until he passed away he also showed trust in Pete and John. The business bottom line is continued success while odds are "stacked" to keep you from becoming a dynasty. A fans bottom line is winning a super bowl. A successful GM has to wait till 3/4 of his GM colleagues make selections off a waiver wire and also off a draft board.

Those are all fair points, but given that OL's represent nearly a quarter of starting positions, the odds alone say that you're going to dedicate some resources to them. It's undeniable that we don't dedicate near the resources for offensive linemen as we do for defensive/skill position players. Indeed, we've traded future #1 draft picks (Harvin, Graham, Adams), moved up in the draft, and in the case of one of them, traded a Pro Bowl OL in Max Unger w/o a viable replacement on the roster, for those types of positions. We've never done anything close to that in order to obtain an offensive linemen. And how many consecutive years was it that we didn't resign an OL to a 2nd contract? They have never been a priority for Pete. I'm not necessarily saying that it's a bad strategy, at least it wasn't in the first few years of his regime as was very successful. But it's an undeniable fact that the priority exists.

When Pete pushed all his chips to the center of the table in the Adams trade then compounded it by signing him to the most expensive contract in the league for his position, I said to myself that this is it. This deal of his better work out because if it doesn't, we'll be paying for it for years. It reinforced my sentiment that if this season isn't more successful than the past 7, if I don't get that feeling as I did in 2011 that this team was going somewhere vs. the end of last season where I felt the type of embarrassment one experiences when they forget to zip up their fly, that I was off the bandwagon.

We've kicked around the subject of Pete Carroll's possible departure in the forum for months. I fully understand the logic behind those that defend his performance over the past 7 seasons and that have a higher tolerance threshold than I do. I simply don't agree with that position.

[tarlhawk]

Those are all fair points, but given that OL's represent nearly a quarter of starting positions, the odds alone say that you're going to dedicate some resources to them. It's undeniable that we don't dedicate near the resources for offensive linemen as we do for defensive/skill position players. Indeed, we've traded future #1 draft picks (Harvin, Graham, Adams), moved up in the draft, and in the case of one of them, traded a Pro Bowl OL in Max Unger w/o a viable replacement on the roster, for those types of positions. We've never done anything close to that in order to obtain an offensive linemen. And how many consecutive years was it that we didn't resign an OL to a 2nd contract? They have never been a priority for Pete. I'm not necessarily saying that it's a bad strategy, at least it wasn't in the first few years of his regime as was very successful. But it's an undeniable fact that the priority exists.

When Pete pushed all his chips to the center of the table in the Adams trade then compounded it by signing him to the most expensive contract in the league for his position, I said to myself that this is it. This deal of his better work out because if it doesn't, we'll be paying for it for years. It reinforced my sentiment that if this season isn't more successful than the past 7, if I don't get that feeling as I did in 2011 that this team was going somewhere vs. the end of last season where I felt the type of embarrassment one experiences when they forget to zip up their fly, that I was off the bandwagon.

We've kicked around the subject of Pete Carroll's possible departure in the forum for months. I fully understand the logic behind those that defend his performance over the past 7 seasons and that have a higher tolerance threshold than I do. I simply don't agree with that position.

Differ a bit with your opinion on what we spend on our offensive line by comparing it to the (3-0) Rams. Our offensive line cost as a unit about 23 million while the Rams have about 17 Million invested. 2nd contracts for the OL not so much but I bet Damien has a shot and LT Duane as well ...both under different circumstances! A very real reason fans and management don't view things the same way is that JS has been operating our draft strategy knowing full well where our winning ways continually put us in the draft cellar. Most fans who follow the draft know about the top 10-15 available selections...by the time we pick our fans are used to hearing someone not on the fans radar and if a draft pundit chips in confirming our pick as "questionable" we are quick to second guess. If you listen closely you'll hear most pundits acknowledge that JS "somehow" gets it right...without their "help"...

I checked out your ref to the Packers sustained winning seasons (and for purposes of contrast) I use 2010 going forward to give relevance to PC/JS. We both won a SB in that time frame. We revisited...they didn't. They've knocked on the door 4 times...one of them was shut by us. Two of their losing seasons came in the last 4 years...true you had to go back to 2008 to find their last losing season. Pretty good!

Back to Pete and hand wringing over J. Adams...I shed a little light on how our draft strategy is forced to acknowledge our winning ways...which then gives us very low picks. So how do we get someone with Top-10 draft status...suffer thru a 3-14 losing record?? No you do a "business deal" equivalent. First you have to find a willing team...who wants to help the Seahawks?? ...few takers so look for someone looking to strip away cap space while accumulating draft capital (NY Jets). What is fair market value? Target's age? Young 20's ... Targets potential? Top 10 pick/high ceiling...potential realized? Demonstrated elite (all-pro consideration/actual All-Pro 2019) So youth and potential (one #1 pick) demonstrated elite (another #1 pick) We paid full-market value! Contract ?? We didn't have the luxury of drafting him and getting a full bargain rookie contract so we had a one year test of his abilities. The pass rushing ability reflected his nose for the ball and relentless pursuit. He contributed in that role to help our 2nd half of the season defensive turnaround. As he absorbs the playbook/acclimate to his team mates his value with become more evident-he helped us in a big way to win our NFC West Championship. PC and JS seen enough to commit long-term...does every good decision bear the best fruits right away...live life a little longer.

[RiverDog]

[I checked out your ref to the Packers sustained winning seasons (and for purposes of contrast) I use 2010 going forward to give relevance to PC/JS. We both won a SB in that time frame. We revisited...they didn't. They've knocked on the door 4 times...one of them was shut by us. Two of their losing seasons came in the last 4 years...true you had to go back to 2008 to find their last losing season. Pretty good!

McCarthy started in 2006 and got canned in 2018 so it's not exactly apples and oranges, but close. But my point wasn't to draw comparisons. You asked me to name a franchise besides the Pats that have had sustained success comparable to our own and I gave you the Packers and Steelers. Besides, I'm not looking at past accomplishments as much as I am what the future holds for us. What have you done for me lately?

Back to Pete and hand wringing over J. Adams...I shed a little light on how our draft strategy is forced to acknowledge our winning ways...which then gives us very low picks. So how do we get someone with Top-10 draft status...suffer thru a 3-14 losing record?? No you do a "business deal" equivalent. First you have to find a willing team...who wants to help the Seahawks?? ...few takers so look for someone looking to strip away cap space while accumulating draft capital (NY Jets). What is fair market value? Target's age? Young 20's ... Targets potential? Top 10 pick/high ceiling...potential realized? Demonstrated elite (all-pro consideration/actual All-Pro 2019) So youth and potential (one #1 pick) demonstrated elite (another #1 pick) We paid full-market value! Contract ?? We didn't have the luxury of drafting him and getting a full bargain rookie contract so we had a one year test of his abilities. The pass rushing ability reflected his nose for the ball and relentless pursuit. He contributed in that role to help our 2nd half of the season defensive turnaround. As he absorbs the playbook/acclimate to his team mates his value with become more evident-he helped us in a big way to win our NFC West Championship. PC and JS seen enough to commit long-term...does every good decision bear the best fruits right away...live life a little longer.

Yea, that's a decent strategy if your player evaluation is sound. Lately, it's been anything but.

We'll see how it goes. I'm not completely off the bandwagon yet. I have one foot on and one foot off. I've sworn that I'm going to wait and see where we stand at the end of the season. Winning records and playoff appearances do mean something when appraising a franchise, but they're not a carte blanc check. I know a lot of fans in both Pittsburgh and Green Bay that are thinking similar thoughts. They're not any happier with their lack of progress than we are with ours. Such is life in the NFL.