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Pete Carroll said in an interview earlier this week that he wished Russell had taken a check down pass to an open receiver rather than going for a deeper shot downfield on a first and 10 from their own 13 in sudden death overtime:

Star quarterback Russell Wilson was 18 for 22 passing at one point, but after that he went 4 for 9 and didn’t find the end zone. Carroll said Wilson played well and “took advantage of the game” until Seattle’s lone drive in overtime.

“We had a play-action pass and I wish we could have controlled the ball and checked the ball down there, but he took a shot to Tyler (Lockett that was incomplete) and then we went to DK (Metcalf) on second down (that was incomplete), and then our opportunity escapes us there and they get the ball inside the 40,” Carroll said. “That sequence was the one I wish Russ could have helped us there and made completions. We just needed to move the ball there and change the field position at least in overtime because you’re playing for a field goal right there.”

https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1510317/ ... vs-titans/

When asked about whether or not he agreed with his head coach's assessment of his play during the overtime period, here's what Russell had to say:

“I think what I agree with is, find a way to win the game, whatever that is,” Wilson said Thursday, via Bob Condotta of the Seattle Times. “I think that ultimately the game happens so fast. You try to get the ball to Tyler [Lockett]. … He’s a pretty good player. But at the same time, the game happens fast. You know, you make a decision. We were backed up. Didn’t want to get hit on the first play, get sacked on it. So it’s one of those things, we were probably 3-4 inches off from completing it. One of those beautiful toe taps.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/se ... uxbndlbing

IMO saying that what he and coach Carroll agree on is to "find a way to win the game" is a pretty stupid, lame answer to a direct question about the wisdom of two specific plays. Of course, they both want to find a way to win. Who doesn't? All that answer amounts to is ducking the question and not saying what is obviously on his mind, ie that he disagrees and that he feels his "way to win the game" was a better option than his head coach's. It would have been better had he said something like "I'd rather not get into that here" or "That's something that we've all talked about."

Whether or not you agree with Pete or Russell on this question, this dust up has to be concerning, that Russell is openly disagreeing with his coach on a critical series that went very badly for the Hawks, ultimately cost us the game, and of which Russell bears a high degree of responsibility for but is apparently not admitting to his mistakes, at least not publicly. IMO Russell took two ill advised deep shots, essentially 50/50 balls, from our own 13 and in sudden death where a FG by either team ends the game instead of opting for a safer check down that apparently was open (or else Carroll wouldn't have been so critical) then defending it by saying they were just "3"-4" off"

Comments?

Thoughts of mountains and molehills. As usual I think too many are making too much of too little.

I was as disappointed in that drive as anyone, and while I'd have to check the all 22 to see if the underneath option was open enough to prompt Pete to call Russ out publicly over it (isn't he the one always talking about keeping stuff "in house"?), but I also agree with Russ that when the game is on the line you want to get the ball in the hands of your best players. That's why it was Jordan making that three pointer on Bryon Russel's face and not Steve Kerr to win that 97 championship.

They've both got points, I wish both had made those points in Pete's office rather than in front of the press but I don't think it's anywhere nearly as big a deal as people want it to be. It's week 3, we need to be focused on the Vikes.

c_hawkbob wrote:Thoughts of mountains and molehills. As usual I think too many are making too much of too little.

I was as disappointed in that drive as anyone, and while I'd have to check the all 22 to see if the underneath option was open enough to prompt Pete to call Russ out publicly over it (isn't he the one always talking about keeping stuff "in house"?), but I also agree with Russ that when the game is on the line you want to get the ball in the hands of your best players. That's why it was Jordan making that three pointer on Bryon Russel's face and not Steve Kerr to win that 97 championship.

They've both got points, I wish both had made those points in Pete's office rather than in front of the press but I don't think it's anywhere nearly as big a deal as people want it to be. It's week 3, we need to be focused on the Vikes.

Well, I for one, don't "want" it to be a big deal. I'm a Seahawk fan, and no true Hawks fan should be happy or even amused about a rift between their starting QB and HC as it's a direct result of our losing football games. But I agree with you that they're both to blame for airing dirty laundry. It was a discussion/question that both should have deflected and had behind closed doors.

That aside, I come down firmly on Pete's side on this particular argument, assuming that there were open check down receivers. Like I said in the OP, I find it hard to believe that there weren't given that Pete said that he should have checked down, so I think it's pretty obvious that Pete saw it on film. We were backed up on our own 13, so the object should have been to get at least one first down to get us "out of jail" if we have to punt the ball back. If he forgoes an open receiver in that situation for a target further downfield, he'd better be damn sure he connects. It wasn't the first quarter with plenty of time to make up for a mistake or misfire. It was sudden death.

Although I don't have a replay available, my recollection is that the passes to both Lockett and Metcalf were relatively well covered and that they were basically 50/50 balls. Defending his decision by saying that they were "3 or 4 inches away" is simply unacceptable. I can give Russell a break by acknowledging that hindsight is 20/20 and that we are typical Monday morning quarterbacks, but it would have been nice if he had shown a little humility and accepted some responsibility for the failure of that last series. If he had, I wouldn't be coming down so hard on him.

This was our first loss of the year, it's Week 2 of a 17 game season, and we already have a dust up between the two men. As Condetta said in his last paragraph..Comments like the ones made by both Carroll and Wilson will definitely spark the flames of the trade reports that circulated throughout the offseason.

I think a head coach who is a defensive specialist who has not had a top 10 defense in going on 6 years has more to worry about than the high performing QB. Fact is Pete's risky trades and attempts to rebuild the defense are not working and he needs to take a look in the mirror as far who is failing to build us into a contender.
30 points should always be enough to win at home. When it isn't, you don't have a problem with the offense no matter how many people claim it so. If your defense is getting run over, giving up 559 yards and 33 points at home then your defense is bad.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I think a head coach who is a defensive specialist who has not had a top 10 defense in going on 6 years has more to worry about than the high performing QB. Fact is Pete's risky trades and attempts to rebuild the defense are not working and he needs to take a look in the mirror as far who is failing to build us into a contender.
30 points should always be enough to win at home. When it isn't, you don't have a problem with the offense no matter how many people claim it so. If your defense is getting run over, giving up 559 yards and 33 points at home then your defense is bad.

Still giving the offense a pass. Oh, well....

Aseahawkfan wrote:I think a head coach who is a defensive specialist who has not had a top 10 defense in going on 6 years has more to worry about than the high performing QB. Fact is Pete's risky trades and attempts to rebuild the defense are not working and he needs to take a look in the mirror as far who is failing to build us into a contender.
30 points should always be enough to win at home. When it isn't, you don't have a problem with the offense no matter how many people claim it so. If your defense is getting run over, giving up 559 yards and 33 points at home then your defense is bad.

RiverDog wrote:Still giving the offense a pass. Oh, well....

No more than you seem to be giving the defense a pass.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I think a head coach who is a defensive specialist who has not had a top 10 defense in going on 6 years has more to worry about than the high performing QB. Fact is Pete's risky trades and attempts to rebuild the defense are not working and he needs to take a look in the mirror as far who is failing to build us into a contender.

30 points should always be enough to win at home. When it isn't, you don't have a problem with the offense no matter how many people claim it so. If your defense is getting run over, giving up 559 yards and 33 points at home then your defense is bad.

RiverDog wrote:Still giving the offense a pass. Oh, well....

c_hawkbob wrote:No more than you seem to be giving the defense a pass.

I beg your pardon! From my posts the Titan's game thread:

4th quarter and OT was a complete and total collapse on both offense and defense. No way should we have lost a game we were leading by 14 points with 12 minutes to go in the game.

Lots of places to lay blame on this one. The defense had a 14 point lead in the 4th quarter. They gave up over 500 yards in total offense. They had a number of bone head personal foul penalties (Brooks' late hit, Reed's taunting, Adams roughing the QB). The Titans were down two starters on the OL for all of the 2nd half yet they treated our defense like a rag doll. Adams never got home, got caught inside on one blitz and let Henry run past him for a 60 yard TD allowing Flowers to take a horrible angle and ran himself out of the play. Adams was a non factor last week and a liability this week. He has yet to justify the trade or the contract. We gave the Titans 6 first downs via penalty. As a team, we had 10 penalties for 100 yards.

The defense gave up over 500 yards in total offense and couldn't hold a two touchdown lead in the 4th quarter, so they deserve their fair share of the blame, too.

Show me one quote that ASF has made that gives an equivalent amount of criticism on the offense.

RiverDog wrote:Still giving the offense a pass. Oh, well....

I'll ask just because. How many points is the offense supposed to put up to win? 30 points is usually a very high score. That's 4 touchdowns and a safety. 3 TDs and 3 FGs. How many points is enough for the offense to get a win?

You can dance around looking at key game moments like the offense not having ToP or moving the ball much in the 3rd quarter. Or any way you want to look at it instead of looking at what each side did.

The offense put up 30 points. Russ passed for 343 yards and 2 TDs with a 128.8 QB rating. He had no turnovers. Rushing game put up 77 yards. Total of 420 yards of offense.

The defense gave up 33 points. Tannehill passed for 347 yards and 0 TDs. Rushing defense gave up 212 yards and 3 TDs. Total yards given up by the defense 559 yards.

So tell me, who did their job better? The offense or the defense?

I'm going by the numbers and not trying to cherry pick moments in the game. When I look at the above numbers, the offense did the job putting up 30 points to win. The defense did not do the job and performed poorly, probably one of the worst defensive performances in the league for the week.

I'll take those offensive numbers every week as 30 points a game makes you one of the best offenses in the league over a season.

But those defensive numbers make you one of the worst defenses in the league over a season.

You'll win a lot of games if the offense performs as well as it did last Sunday. You'll lose even more if the defense performs as badly as it did last Sunday.

So it doesn't much matter who I give a pass to or try to make excuses for. Bottom line is the defense has a much farther way to go to become a Super Bowl contending defense, while the offense could put those numbers up every week on a team with an even halfway decent defense and we'd be a contender.

But right now our defense is bad, really bad. As in one of the worst in the league. It's gonna kill us if they don't get better. I don't see any reason to pay a defensive coach big money for a crap defense. And you know I've been a huge Pete Carroll fan and supporter. But I'm sorry. You can't hide the decay in the defense. They are not a contending defense. They are bad. Real bad. Got whooped in the last playoff game by the Rams. Just got whooped by the Titans at home. If Carroll don't get this turned around quickly, then why is he even here?

Aseahawkfan wrote:I'll ask just because. How many points is the offense supposed to put up to win? 30 points is usually a very high score. That's 4 touchdowns and a safety. 3 TDs and 3 FGs. How many points is enough for the offense to get a win?

One more than the opponent scores. It's a team game.

Aseahawkfan wrote:You can dance around looking at key game moments like the offense not having ToP or moving the ball much in the 3rd quarter. Or any way you want to look at it instead of looking at what each side did.

The offense put up 30 points. Russ passed for 343 yards and 2 TDs with a 128.8 QB rating. He had no turnovers. Rushing game put up 77 yards. Total of 420 yards of offense.

The defense gave up 33 points. Tannehill passed for 347 yards and 0 TDs. Rushing defense gave up 212 yards and 3 TDs. Total yards given up by the defense 559 yards.

So tell me, who did their job better? The offense or the defense?

It doesn't matter who did their job better. We lost. Here's some quotes from an article that might help illustrate some of the offenses failings:

Versus Tennessee, Seattle ran on just 15 plays for a paltry 61 yards—a total which is inflated by Alex Collins’ 25-yard run in the second quarter. Removing Collins’ play puts the Seahawks at 14 runs for a rough 2.6 yards per carry. On the flip side of that, they called passes on 34 plays, despite being in a situation—a 14-point lead heading into the fourth quarter—where you would expect an offense to run more.

Removing the last play of the encounter (a quick throw to Tyler Lockett versus prevent defense) and Freddie Swain’s gift of a 68-yard touchdown versus broken coverage, the Seahawks ran 22 plays for a pathetic 55 yards. Seattle picked up only four "real" (discounting the end-of-game) first-downs in the second half.

There's liars, damn liars, and then there's statisticians. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Take a peek at the article I got those quotes from and you'll see a little more detailed analysis of what's wrong with our offense, including the "dust up" referred to in the OP:

https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/.amp/gm ... ssion=true

I am not disagreeing with your analysis of our defense one little bit. They suck. But the offense did next to nothing to help them out in the 2nd half/overtime. We're a boom or bust offense, which puts a lot of pressure on the defense because it's not predicated on 10+ play drives. Not unlike Chip Kelly's continuous hurry up offense, it burns up defenses. It's the exact opposite of the type of offenses that made Pete's defenses so successful. The defense isn't going to get better until the offense gets away from this boom or bust mentality and starts moving the chains.

RiverDog wrote:One more than the opponent scores. It's a team game.

Weak excuse. Put a number on it because if 30 points isn't enough, what is? If the offense puts up 50 and the defense gives up 53? Whose fault is it?

A quality defense should not be giving up 33 points at home. Period. The offense isn't on the field when the defense is, so they can't do much if the defense is getting destroyed. You know who can? A head coach and general manager who aren't trading first round picks for a safety who isn't very good in coverage or drafting defensive ends who can't do the job or end up with career ending head injuries from riding ATVs with no helmet.

It doesn't matter who did their job better. We lost.

It sure does matter. I've been seeing this defensive decay for years now. It's why we're not a contender. As Super Bowl 48 proved, you can be the best offense on paper in history and you run into one of the best defenses you're gonna lose and lose bad. We've seen this over and over and over again. You don't have a defense in the NFL, you're not gonna be a real contender year in and year out. And Pete and John have failed miserably to rebuild this defense.

Versus Tennessee, Seattle ran on just 15 plays for a paltry 61 yards—a total which is inflated by Alex Collins’ 25-yard run in the second quarter. Removing Collins’ play puts the Seahawks at 14 runs for a rough 2.6 yards per carry. On the flip side of that, they called passes on 34 plays, despite being in a situation—a 14-point lead heading into the fourth quarter—where you would expect an offense to run more.

Because good run defense shuts down good run offense. So what do you do when you can't run? Your defense has to hold because you are always going to run into a defense that makes you one dimensional. If your defense can't do the same to them, then you're all done.

Removing the last play of the encounter (a quick throw to Tyler Lockett versus prevent defense) and Freddie Swain’s gift of a 68-yard touchdown versus broken coverage, the Seahawks ran 22 plays for a pathetic 55 yards. Seattle picked up only four "real" (discounting the end-of-game) first-downs in the second half.

Once again, outplayed on defense by the Titans. Titans defense did their job stopping us enough to win. If your defense can't do the same back, then you're all done.

All these stats show is one defense shut the offense down as they are supposed to do and the other got crushed.

There's liars, damn liars, and then there's statisticians. Numbers don't always tell the whole story.

Why do you keep using this quote? You're the one posting articles manipulating statistics. That quote applies to your article where someone is manipulating data to blame an offense that very much did their job putting up 30 points. 30 points is not a statistic. It's a score.

I could write all kinds of garbage such as, "If I take out the TD by Lockett and I remove the TD by Carson, then we only scored 16 points. And we lost by 17 and it was even more the offense's fault." That kind of argument is just rubbish.

I am not disagreeing with your analysis of our defense one little bit. They suck. But the offense did next to nothing to help them out in the 2nd half/overtime. We're a boom or bust offense, which puts a lot of pressure on the defense because it's not predicated on 10+ play drives. Not unlike Chip Kelly's continuous hurry up offense, it burns up defenses. It's the exact opposite of the type of offenses that made Pete's defenses so successful. The defense isn't going to get better until the offense gets away from this boom or bust mentality and starts moving the chains.

You're just making excuses for a defense that can no longer hold scores to anything reasonable against good teams. They've been this way for a while.

The defense is a group that cannot get it done even when given a high score to work with.

Bottom line, if this defense doesn't get turned around this year, Pete gotta go. He's had five years going on six to rebuild this defense. He's failing miserably.

It's wasting an offense that finally has some stud receivers with a QB in his prime able to score more than ever before if they get more opportunities from a shutdown defense. But right now we have a defense that can't compete against the big boys. Doesn't take the ball away much. And a defensive head coach who doesn't seem able to find talent to replace what he lost.

That's the main problem with this team. A non-competitive defense that can't keep things reasonable. If the offense has to always put up one more score than the other team when the defense is giving up 25 plus points a game, then we're in for a real bad season.

If this defense doesn't get turned around, I'm done with giving Pete a pass. He's a defensive head coach who isn't able to rebuild the defense. Bring in some new blood who has the vision and energy to rebuild a full team who can compete, not keep trading picks for shiny toys that don't make us better.

I swear, you're sounding more and more like Anthony every day, cherry picking stats that support your case and ignoring those that don't.

Time of possession, when it is as heavily skewed as it was vs. the Titans (42:33 vs 22:42), is a significant stat, especially as it applies to a weak defense like ours. The Titans had 33 first downs. Our offense produced just 17, and that's counting the meaningless first down at the end of regulation when Russell scrambled for a first down on our own 31 with 2 seconds and no timeouts. On 3rd down, we were just 4-12 , 33%, well below the league average (After 2 games, the Chargers are 1st with 60%, WFT is last with 30%). Back out the aforementioned garbage first down and it looks even worse.

4th quarter/OT offense, when the game is on the line, is significant, and our offense choked. It wasn't the defense that failed in OT. They stopped the Titans and got the ball back for us, giving Russell and the offense a chance to win with a FG. Do you remember the NFCCG in 2015 when Aaron Rodgers never got on the field in OT? Or our regular season win that same season when Peyton Manning never got on the field in OT? Despite how badly they played through most of the game, the defense gave the offense a chance to win.

Discarding the meaningless first down with 2 seconds to go in regulation, we had just two first downs in the final 27 minutes of the game. Our offense finished the game with 4 consecutive 3 and outs (again, discounting the FD with 2 seconds in regulation). Our last drive of the game, in sudden death overtime, was 3 plays for -12 yards. Russell was supposed to be Mr. Clutch. For years, us fans kept trumpeting his 4th quarter comeback wins. Well, it didn't go so well last week now, did it? But you go right ahead and stick your head in the sand and blame it on the defense!

So go ahead and yell your personal insults at me, tell me how I hate Russell Wilson, how myself and the vast majority fans and pundits that can see the flaws that you choose to rationalize don't know the first thing about football, and ignore the facts I've mentioned above.

You're both right to a degree.
We need to play 60 minutes on both sides of the ball.
Last week, the Offense played 30 minutes and asked the Defense to hold on while they floundered.
The problem with the Offense is no ground game. It seems to be big plays or nothing. If we had
a solid ground game we could have won it with a couple of first downs. Taking time off the clock
was crucial in the 4th Q and we couldn't do it.

NorthHawk wrote:You're both right to a degree.
We need to play 60 minutes on both sides of the ball.
Last week, the Offense played 30 minutes and asked the Defense to hold on while they floundered.
The problem with the Offense is no ground game. It seems to be big plays or nothing. If we had
a solid ground game we could have won it with a couple of first downs. Taking time off the clock
was crucial in the 4th Q and we couldn't do it.

Yep. Boom or bust, Chip Kelly style of offense.

If I could compare a similar collapse, a far worse one on a huge stage Id bring up the Falcons and Pats in the big one a few years back. As we saw Atlanta raced to their huge lead fast. Only problem is it doesnt give the D a blow. Similar to Seattle the D was quite effective early even baiting Brady into a pick 6. When the TOP got lopsided enough NE climbed back in, also helped by inexplicable calls and errors by the Falcons. Seattle's defense in the first half against Henry was outstanding but it was all out run blitzes and selling out and swarming the ball wearing out the defense. Any time there's that disparity in TOP there's 2 or 3 phases to blame but the D ultimately suffers the worst. As has been said ad nauseum with the arm Russ has the team can score in one play and they basically did on almost every score last Sunday. That's hard on a defense playing a guy the size of a D lineman that runs like a deer and can go over you or around you. we saw that. The LOB wouldnt shut that guy down with that much time on the field. Not too many people do. How many points to win at home as Asea argues? 1 more than the opponent, thats how many. Its a team game.

The Seahawks offense had 2 first downs and a long bomb on 3rd and 12 (which people forget the down and distance) in the entire second half and overtime. Without that totally blown coverage the Titans may well have easily won in regulation.


As for Russ houston we have a problem...........Money man went 4-9 on his last 9 balls.One of them ,a completion to a back on a screen was into the ground causing a short gain on a play that appeared well set up

So much for #notimeforsleep#. He didn't watch that film of that last sequence before he popped off like that. His 3 to 4 inch miss to Lockett was 3 feet out of bounds and into double coverage. Lockett clearly pushed off to create separation and still there's no chance whatsoever to complete it. I focused on Lock when I replayed it but clearly with 2 guys smothering Lockett from the snap on and probably someone spying too there had to be options. Russ hardly got the snap whan he threw it, clearly deciding pre snap where to go. Russ has it totally wrong, wrong read, bad throw too.

The second play is worse, DK 1 on 1 with some midget in the left flat and he overthrew him by at least 3 feet without pressure on him. A horrible shockingly inaccurate throw kind of like the one in the first half over the receivers head in the end zone. a 4 point swing that everyone forgets in that hot first half.

But the last play was awful. With beer goggles firmly attached late last sunday I thought it was a bang bang sack with no option for Russ to unload the ball to a receiver. On sober replay he's got well over a second and most sickening has got Travis Homer about 3 yards from the sticks on the right sidelines on a little curl with nobody else even near him initially. There's a clear throwing lane but Russ is gonna get popped when he releases it if he stands in and delivers it. Didn't look to me like he even read that side of the field or even looked at Homer who was waving his hands wildly calling for the ball.My guess Homer easily moves the chains and 1 on 1 who knows. Certainly he would have changed field position 20 yards from where it wound up.Russ looked directly at that rusher and started running backwards.

THERE WAS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT SACK. Much like about half the sacks Russ takes these days.

"Im tired of getting hit so much". Truth. He is. he's seeing the rush, flinching, throwing off his back foot and spinning out of any type of potential contact to the point its affecting his accuracy at critical moments. In the second half especially late he was the guy from the Rams game. Hes hearing footsteps, seeing ghosts.

I don't want a word of this to be true but I'm afraid it is..It bears watching and I read anonymous quotes from Gms around the league who suggest the same thing.