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I am having doubts about the effectiveness of JS to identify talent in the draft. I was an avid fan but lately there are more busts than success stories. Maybe they should bring on someone that knows that stuff.

Uppercut wrote:I am having doubts about the effectiveness of JS to identify talent in the draft. I was an avid fan but lately there are more busts than success stories. Maybe they should bring on someone that knows that stuff.

I think most GM's have a track record of more busts than success stories. Part of the problem is that his first 4 drafts were so good that the last few look bad in comparison. What you can't deny is the team's success over his time as our GM. 2 SB's and a small rebuild and with a strong off season we are basically SB contenders again. These next few months for the Hawks and JS are huge. If he were to somehow screw this up I would agree with you. If you look at last year if we stay healthy and avoid suspensions we are legitimate SB contenders. Imagine how we would have looked at the end of the year with Britt, Carson, Dissly, Woods, and a healthy Clowney.

The other thing about those first few drafts is that Pete was still very close to the college game with a lot of contacts across the country, particularly in the west, so Bobby Wagner (Utah State), Richard Sherman (Stanford), Doug Baldwin (Stanford) Brandon Browner (Oregon State), and although not drafted, Marshawn Lynch out of Cal were all players in Pete's neck of the woods.

The further Pete gets away from his college days, the worse his drafts.

I think the problem is not Schneider, but that they moved away from their original philosophy trying to trade for gold than mine for it. When John and Pete first got there, they left no stones unturned. They churned this roster and found talent like Clemons and Bennett off the radar. Now they keep trying to trade for gold that seemed to have started with Harvin onto Graham and the other line of mature folks. I think they are starting to get back to their original philosphy and if Pete can get the defense rebuilt, we can make a more serious run. So far it's looking like the run game is rebuilt. We need to add the defense and maintain what we have and we're back in it. With Brady and the Patriots looking done, it's a wide open field.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I think the problem is not Schneider, but that they moved away from their original philosophy trying to trade for gold than mine for it. When John and Pete first got there, they left no stones unturned. They churned this roster and found talent like Clemons and Bennett off the radar. Now they keep trying to trade for gold that seemed to have started with Harvin onto Graham and the other line of mature folks. I think they are starting to get back to their original philosphy and if Pete can get the defense rebuilt, we can make a more serious run. So far it's looking like the run game is rebuilt. We need to add the defense and maintain what we have and we're back in it. With Brady and the Patriots looking done, it's a wide open field.

Not a lot of player-for-picks trades seem to work out. Beast is one of the few for us, except for the Diggs trade, which wasn't really a trade, more like highway robbery. We've done well in the 2nd and 3rd tier of free agency. The high profile trades, Harvin and to a lesser degree Graham, have been flaming busts. But the trade for Brown seems to have worked out pretty well and hopefully the Clowney trade will bear fruit. We certainly didn't risk very much.

I thought that Schneider did a fantastic job this season, with the Clowney and Diggs trades, bringing in Hollister, and drafting Metcalf.

Graham a bust? Best TE ever to wear Seahawk uniform ain't enough huh?

c_hawkbob wrote:Graham a bust? Best TE ever to wear Seahawk uniform ain't enough huh?

IMO the best tight end to wear a Seahawk uniform was Zach Miller. I'd take him any day of the week and twice on Sundays vs. Graham.

'Bust' might be too a strong of a term, but he did not live up to expectations given what we gave up for him.

c_hawkbob wrote:Graham a bust? Best TE ever to wear Seahawk uniform ain't enough huh?

RiverDog wrote:IMO the best tight end to wear a Seahawk uniform was Zach Miller. I'd take him any day of the week and twice on Sundays vs. Graham.

'Bust' might be too a strong of a term, but he did not live up to expectations given what we gave up for him.

Zach: 102 receptions, 1,092 receiving yards, 8 touchdowns in 4 seasons.
Jimmy: 170 receptions, 2,048 receiving yards, 18 touchdowns in 3 seasons.

Even given that Zach was the better blocker those are pretty glaring stats. And if I were to give you Zach as #1, #2 is a long damn ways from a bust.

Y'all are just up in the night on this whole thread IMO. Bo Duke is the best GM we've ever had by far ... still!

You keep saying he was good for his first few years but using DVOA stats we've drafted 6 first round talents since 2015 while only drafting in the first round 3 times.

Go ahead and tell me who's doing better (whether you're successful or not, saying Scneider has lost it is just a load of crap).

c_hawkbob wrote:Y'all are just up in the night on this whole thread IMO. Bo Duke is the best GM we've ever had by far ... still!

You keep saying he was good for his first few years but using DVOA stats we've drafted 6 first round talents since 2015 while only drafting in the first round 3 times.

Go ahead and tell me who's doing better (whether you're successful or not, saying Scneider has lost it is just a load of crap).

I never said that JS has "lost it. To the contrary, I agree with you that Schneider is the best GM we've ever had. Don't interpret my pointing out of some of his mistakes and explanations for some of his failures as an overall displeasure with his work.

As far as comparing Graham with Miller, you can't quantify blocking like you can receiving. Graham was a horribly weak blocker, a wide receiver posing as an inline tight end. There were times that I swore that Miller was a better blocker than our tackles, and when have a run first offense like ours, a blocking tight end is a must. Plus he made some incredibly tough catches and was Russell's security blanket when protection broke down, which during that period of time, happened more times than not.

Graham was a bad fit here and we should have never traded for him. I suspect the reason we did was because we felt an almost desperate need to get Russell some "weapons" and at the time, he was the only player within our reach that fit that description.

I don't think the problem with Graham was he was a bad fit, rather they tried to make him play
outside of his abilities. If they didn't try to make him into a blocker, he probably would have
done a lot better.
I don't understand why when we get players who succeed in other systems we don't also steal
their favorite plays from that team. After all, it's what made them as good as they are.

NorthHawk wrote:I don't think the problem with Graham was he was a bad fit, rather they tried to make him play outside of his abilities.

Isn't that a description of a bad fit, making him play outside his abilities? Round peg into a square hole?

PC does not use TE's like he should...

BTW what ever happened to your guy Mr. Jeramy Solo?

Isn't that a description of a bad fit, making him play outside his abilities? Round peg into a square hole?[/quote]

I don't look at it that way. He could have been much more productive if they just used him as a receiving TE, but
they were too stubborn to change their Offense slightly to take advantage of the skills that made him special. That
slight change could have made all the difference.

NorthHawk wrote:I don't look at it that way (being a bad fit). He could have been much more productive if they just used him as a receiving TE, but they were too stubborn to change their Offense slightly to take advantage of the skills that made him special. That
slight change could have made all the difference.

I don't know if making a 'slight' change in the offense could have made that big of a difference unless they used him in some other role than a 3 down, inline tight end in our run first offense, either as a 3rd down tight end or a traditional wide receiver. He was a liability in running situations or when we ran passing plays that required the tight end to block.

This discussion about Graham reminds me of an argument I got into recently with a friend of mine. I took the position that George Kittle is the best tight end in the game because he's such a ferocious blocker and although he doesn't put up the receiving numbers that a player like Travis Kelce does, it's due only to the differences in the two offenses as to their expectations of the tight end position, that Kittle is a very reliable receiver.

c_hawkbob wrote:Y'all are just up in the night on this whole thread IMO. Bo Duke is the best GM we've ever had by far ... still!

You keep saying he was good for his first few years but using DVOA stats we've drafted 6 first round talents since 2015 while only drafting in the first round 3 times.

Go ahead and tell me who's doing better (whether you're successful or not, saying Scneider has lost it is just a load of crap).

I tend to agree with c-bob on this one. I don't like the reach trades either, but overall Schneider and Pete have kept us competitive every year except for two years. Seattle fans seem to have really forgotten that we've had way more bad years under every other GM/Coach combo other than this one including Holmgren and Knox. And it's not even close.

RiverDog wrote:I never said that JS has "lost it. To the contrary, I agree with you that Schneider is the best GM we've ever had. Don't interpret my pointing out of some of his mistakes and explanations for some of his failures as an overall displeasure with his work.

As far as comparing Graham with Miller, you can't quantify blocking like you can receiving. Graham was a horribly weak blocker, a wide receiver posing as an inline tight end. There were times that I swore that Miller was a better blocker than our tackles, and when have a run first offense like ours, a blocking tight end is a must. Plus he made some incredibly tough catches and was Russell's security blanket when protection broke down, which during that period of time, happened more times than not.

Graham was a bad fit here and we should have never traded for him. I suspect the reason we did was because we felt an almost desperate need to get Russell some "weapons" and at the time, he was the only player within our reach that fit that description.

Miller fit what we do better. For all the stats Bob listed, Graham was not the impact player 'being the best TE in Seahawks history" connotes. It's more a testament to the fact Seattle hasn't had any great TEs. Graham had a couple of good years and set the record for TEs in Seattle. We need to get with the program and get better at using TEs. That's pretty terrible that Graham who only played in Seattle for 3 years is the best TE in Seattle history.

I don't think he was anywhere near the best TE but it depends on how you define
what a TE is. I believe that a TE is a complete player and Graham is not. He's
simply a huge WR playing at the TE position. They should have recognized that
and used him accordingly.

NorthHawk wrote:I don't think he was anywhere near the best TE but it depends on how you define
what a TE is. I believe that a TE is a complete player and Graham is not. He's
simply a huge WR playing at the TE position. They should have recognized that
and used him accordingly.

And for that performance, we gave up a 1st round draft pick, a 4th round pick, and a Pro Bowl center that subsequently went on to start in 63 of the Saints next 64 regular season games. Ugh.

Surprised no one has mentioned Scott McCloughan. He had his hands all over PCJS's first 4 drafts as Senior Personnel Executive. His well documented struggles with alcoholism cost him the 49ers GM gig in 2009. He was with the Hawks 2010-2014.

Regarding John Schneider, I think he is the best GM in the NFL.

Scott McCloughan used to have a company that provided
in depth scouting reports for teams. I think we used it’s
service a few years ago. But I don’t know if it’s still in business.