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I realize this is not about the Hawks or even NFL football but there's just not a lot to talk about from those two arenas right now.

Do you think the way MLB and the Astros handled that was appropriate?

It bothers me that some Astros management/coaches got canned but no sanctions were levied against the players who actually carried out the sign stealing operation.

And what complicates the matter is it's difficult to ferret out all those who were involved to various degrees. That, and the fact that players from other teams have indicated that the Astros are not the only ones who have done this in the last several years.

It seems to me it may have been more appropriate to sanction the whole Astros organization through the luxury tax tool or the draft rather than can a couple of managers/coaches.

trents wrote:I realize this is not about the Hawks or even NFL football but there's just not a lot to talk about from those two arenas right now.

Do you think the way MLB and the Astros handled that was appropriate?

It bothers me that some Astros management/coaches got canned but no sanctions were levied against the players who actually carried out the sign stealing operation.

And what complicates the matter is it's difficult to ferret out all those who were involved to various degrees. That, and the fact that players from other teams have indicated that the Astros are not the only ones who have done this in the last several years.

It seems to me it may have been more appropriate to sanction the whole Astros organization through the luxury tax tool or the draft rather than can a couple of managers/coaches.

I can't speak for the mods, but I don't mind the distraction. Not only is it the offseason, it's the slowest part of the offseason.

Don't forget that the Red Sox were involved in the scandal, too.

Teams have been stealing signs ever since the days of Babe Ruth. The difference here is that they utilized modern tools, specifically video recording. It's not a lot different than the steroids scandal. I don't think it justifies stripping teams of World Series championships anymore than stripping Barry Bonds of his home run titles, but it's a story that should be told, along with all the other scandals that have plagued the sport, in places like the Hall of Fame.

Pete Rose has been trying to use this scandal to leverage his way into the HOF, which I think is absurd. I've always maintained that Rose should not be admitted to the HOF until they admit Shoeless Joe Jackson, the best player banned from the sport as a result of the 1919 Black Sox scandal. I see no relationship between the sign stealing scandal and Rose's suspension for gambling. It's a case of "two wrongs don't make a right".

Ask the Patriots, it's right outa their playbook ... It's cheating. I wish the NFL would take it as seriously a MLB.

There. Now it's about football.

c_hawkbob wrote:Ask the Patriots, it's right outa their playbook ... It's cheating. I wish the NFL would take it as seriously a MLB.

There. Now it's about football.

Hehe. Good job making the topic legit.

The NFL hasn't had the popularity decline like baseball has had to endure, so they may not be as on edge as their MLB counterparts. The other difference is that the individual MLB teams are the ones that took aggressive action in response to the sign stealing scandal as it was the Astros that fired their manager and GM and the Red Sox and Mets "parting ways" with their managers Joey Cora and Carlos Beltran. That's seldom been the case in the NFL as they almost always leave it up to the league to take the lead.

Just wait for the lawsuits to start. Opposing pitchers can sue as some of their losses were based on another team cheating. Salary arbitration is based (partly) on a pitchers record, so they have a gripe and could turn that into lawsuits and depositions from players, coaches, owners, clubhouse workers, etc all who would be under oath.

The teams, like the Mariners, that play them something like 20 times a year should be able to sue them, too.

It won't happen, but I think MLB should take the WS away from them. This is at that level. Certainly was worse then, say, Reggie Bush at U.S.C. and they took away their entire season, including the NCAA championship.

While the managers are ultimately responsible for cheating being done by their teams, the players are all adults (well, mostly) and somehow should be held accountable as well. The NFL has jettisoned some players for repeated doping violations, hasn't it? That's a form of cheating in that it gives an unfair physical advantage.

Cheating in baseball has always gone on its how MLB has dealt with it.

jshawaii22 wrote:Just wait for the lawsuits to start. Opposing pitchers can sue as some of their losses were based on another team cheating. Salary arbitration is based (partly) on a pitchers record, so they have a gripe and could turn that into lawsuits and depositions from players, coaches, owners, clubhouse workers, etc all who would be under oath.

The teams, like the Mariners, that play them something like 20 times a year should be able to sue them, too.

It won't happen, but I think MLB should take the WS away from them. This is at that level. Certainly was worse then, say, Reggie Bush at U.S.C. and they took away their entire season, including the NCAA championship.

It's already happening, and not only could it involve pitchers and other players, it could involve opposing fans claiming that they were unlawfully deceived when they purchased tickets and incurred other expenses. MLB has stepped in a huge mess.

Even though I'm not a USC fan, I disagreed with the stripping of their NC title and would disagree with stripping the Astros and/or Red Sox of any championships. As Roger Maris and his fans can attest, an undignified asterisk is just as damaging as it indicates a tainted achievement. I don't like revisionist history and would rather the story be told with all the gory details than the record be sanitized. Stripping titles punishes many more completely innocent people, including fans as well as other coaches and players, than it does the offenders.

And trents, the MLB made a conscious decision to give the players immunity as not doing so would have made the investigation more difficult and lengthy. Although out of fairness I would have preferred that the participating players been punished along with managers and GM's, I can understand why they felt that expediency was more important than being completely fair and even handed.

Sign stealing has always been part of the game but electronics have made it more invasive.

I would say make it totally legal and teams will juts have to figure counter measures

Uppercut wrote:Sign stealing has always been part of the game but electronics have made it more invasive.

I would say make it totally legal and teams will juts have to figure counter measures

So you wouldn't mind a batter wearing a communication device in his helmet and being in contact with their guy in the centerfield bleachers? Because that's what's next if you make this legal.

They need to come out with a very strong rule, as they did following the 1919 Black Sox scandal, that sends a clear message to players, coaches, managers, owners, and any other paid employees of MLB, that anyone caught using or even having knowledge and failing to report the unauthorized use of electronic equipment to gain advantage during a game is subject to being permanently banned from baseball.

To me stealing signs has gone on for ages. Technology has been introduced to the game in a variety of ways. It's baseball so I don't really care either way but if the game stays with the times and uses tech then you have no leg to stand on when admonishing the players from using it

idhawkman wrote:To me stealing signs has gone on for ages. Technology has been introduced to the game in a variety of ways. It's baseball so I don't really care either way but if the game stays with the times and uses tech then you have no leg to stand on when admonishing the players from using it

Players in MLB and the NFL were "juicing" since the 60's, but that's no reason to allow PED's to continue to promulgate professional sports 40 years later when they finally started to crack down on it.

Stealing signs from the base path is extremely hard to do. For one, you have to have a runner on 2nd, and secondly, the pitcher/catcher can easily change their system once a runner is in that position. It did happen, but those occasions were very rare, much more rare than using a center field camera to steal them as was the case with the Astros.

They'd be heading down a slippery slope if they were to allow for the use of electronic measures to steal signs. There's all sorts of ways teams could use modern technology to cheat. They could eavesdrop into a conversation at the mound between the pitcher and catcher, zoom into a manager's face in the dugout and read his lips, and so on.

This isn't a crisis equal to the 1919 Black Sox scandal or even the PED scandal 15 or so years ago, but they need to put a stop to it and come out with a very harsh statement to prevent something similar from occurring somewhere down the road.

RD's right, the solution is technology. Take away the catcher having to use fingers. Put the Manager on a headset with a mic. Put the Catcher, Pitcher and 2nd Base (or shortstop) on a communications system that only receives, like they use in football. Give the coach 15 seconds after each pitch to call the next pitch. Now, you don't have pitchers signs being stolen. Digital Technology is simple and secure.