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I think Bobby Wagner should be a leading candidate to get The NFL Defensive MVP this year. He has had a monster season and there haven't been any JJ Watt crazy sack numbers this year (Vic Beasley had 15.5). He has been a very consistent leader on the NFLs best defense over the past 5 years. Also his numbers this year are at least as good as Luke Kuechley's the year he won it (Wags this year: 167 takles, 4.5 sacks, 1 INT; Kuechley in 2013: 156, 2, 4). What do you guys think? Does he have a shot? Has there been a defensive stud out there that I'm not thinking of?

He should certainly be in the discussion, but I think we have such a good Defense as a whole, he might get overlooked by those thinking he's a product of others around him.
It's unfair because he deserves it.

Watching from 35 rows up yesterday, he really looked impressive. But as I said with Russell, except as it relates to us winning football games, I could care less if he gets the defensive MVP or wins a free pizza from Papa John's.

I disagree Rd. Man you are a downer today. I'm proud to root for a team with studs who earn hardware. What's wrong with that? Based on 6 playoff teams all with a win at least and a lmbardi it's clear our guys aren't show horses. Give them their due.

I hope hs is and he gets it, he deserves it

I disagree Rd. Man you are a downer today. I'm proud to root for a team with studs who earn hardware. What's wrong with that?

Is it better for the team if he gets the DPOY/MVP or doesn't?

Like RD, I want to have a team full of players playing at MVP level that are perpetually passed over. The only hardware that matters to me is a team award called the Lombardi.

This doesn't mean I wouldn't have a heated (but friendly) debate in a bar defending my players' performance in deciding who deserved the award more, but when the rubber hits the road, my team's players being dissed for such things makes them hungrier and less expensive.

[edit- and for the record, he damn well should be on the short list of 2-3 players for that award this year- I dare anyone to name someone that's clearly played better than Wags has]

Hawktawk wrote:I disagree Rd. Man you are a downer today. I'm proud to root for a team with studs who earn hardware. What's wrong with that? Based on 6 playoff teams all with a win at least and a lmbardi it's clear our guys aren't show horses. Give them their due.

I've been very consistent with my sentiments towards professional sports. For example, I have not and will not buy a jersey with someone else's number/name on it. Professional athletes and coaches are no better and no worse than you, me, or anyone else. I do not place them on a pedestal or worship them as if they were some sort of God. They are not my heroes, at least not due to their on field performances. Sure, I have my favorite players like anyone else, but I honestly care very little about their individual careers except as it relates to my team and treat individual awards and achievements as incidental to the overall objective of what is undeniably a team sport.

Yes you are consistent. It's just kind of a weird quirk for such a big fan not to care about individual players or wear their number etc. Different strokes for different folks.

Hawktawk wrote:Yes you are consistent. It's just kind of a weird quirk for such a big fan not to care about individual players or wear their number etc. Different strokes for different folks.

I wouldn't say that I don't care. I love Russell Wilson and what he's done not only for what he's done for our team but for all the work he's done at Children's. He has my utmost respect. It's just that I don't treat him or any other professional athlete any differently than I would treat you or any of my other friends or family members. Don't think of it in terms of not giving due respect to athletes, rather think of it in terms of the degree of respect I accord my friends and family that I would elevate them to at least as high a status as I do my favorite football players. There's better human idols out there than professional athletes if one needs someone to worship.

The statement that someone is "worshipping" an athlete for wearing a jersey seems like an enormous exaggeration. I don't view them as above myself, friends or family either, and yet I own a ton of jerseys, paraphernalia and go to games regularly, at least two a year ( whether they succeed, or are 2-14)...

Using that kind of exaggeration, one could claim that going to a game is akin to going to "church" and worshipping ALL of the players..... It's entertainment, that's what it's for, no different buying a jersey than the DVD of the newest movie released with a person's favorite actress or actor, none what so ever.

Nor is it any different to root and be happy one of your entertainers wins a personal award, any more than an academy award for same said entertainers.

Wagner belongs in that discussion, but he still doesn't get his due enough publicly. We'll see. For some reason, it'd surprise me if he actually wins it.

Regardless, he's have a great year. The D has legit gripes, but they'll need to step it up considerably after what we've seen these last 2 games as well.

Detroit up next on a shorter week.

HumanCockroach wrote:The statement that someone is "worshipping" an athlete for wearing a jersey seems like an enormous exaggeration. I don't view them as above myself, friends or family either, and yet I own a ton of jerseys, paraphernalia and go to games regularly, at least two a year ( whether they succeed, or are 2-14)...

Using that kind of exaggeration, one could claim that going to a game is akin to going to "church" and worshipping ALL of the players..... It's entertainment, that's what it's for, no different buying a jersey than the DVD of the newest movie released with a person's favorite actress or actor, none what so ever.

Nor is it any different to root and be happy one of your entertainers wins a personal award, any more than an academy award for same said entertainers.

That's your opinion, and I respect it. But don't tell me that my opinion is an "enormous exaggeration" simply because you don't happen to share it.

I suppose, except when "your opinion" cast me( and millions of others) in an unfavorable light, or claims I do something I don't, simply because I choose to spend my disposable income differently than you. Basically, you just said, my way is right, and this is what anyone who doesn't do it my way is.

You can be upset with me having my OWN opinion, or you can stop slapping that judgement brush so wide, or you can accept that saying someone else spending their money on entertainment the way they want, isn't worship, but their right, just like your choice to travel to games, or buy a certain brand of vehicle, or eat at a favorite restaurant, etc. but being angry with me for saying spending that money on the entertainment that the person who earned it wants to isn't worshipping a player or owner, that that is an exaggeration, seems like yet another overreaction.

No one is telling you to spend YOUR money on something you don't want to or insulting you for not doing so, I wonder, why is it you feel it necessary to label those that do spend theirs?

HumanCockroach wrote:I suppose, except when "your opinion" cast me( and millions of others) in an unfavorable light, or claims I do something I don't, simply because I choose to spend my disposable income differently than you. Basically, you just said, my way is right, and this is what anyone who doesn't do it my way is.

You can be upset with me having my OWN opinion, or you can stop slapping that judgement brush so wide, or you can accept that saying someone else spending their money on entertainment the way they want, isn't worship, but their right, just like your choice to travel to games, or buy a certain brand of vehicle, or eat at a favorite restaurant, etc. but being angry with me for saying spending that money on the entertainment that the person who earned it wants to isn't worshipping a player or owner, that that is an exaggeration, seems like yet another overreaction.

No one is telling you to spend YOUR money on something you don't want to or insulting you for not doing so, I wonder, why is it you feel it necessary to label those that do spend theirs?

I am not casting you or anyone else's opinion in a bad light. I am simply explaining my own point of view and said nothing about other people wasting their money on jerseys or anything else. If I did feel that way, I'd have damn few friends as I fully recognize that my opinion is a minority POV. But one advantage I can claim with my choice of jerseys over the majority of my friends selections (I have a home blue #12 personalized with "River Dog" printed on the back) is that they can't trade him and he can't hold out.

I was not angry with you. All I was doing was asking you to accept my opinion at face value.

RiverDog wrote:I wouldn't say that I don't care. I love Russell Wilson and what he's done not only for what he's done for our team but for all the work he's done at Children's. He has my utmost respect. It's just that I don't treat him or any other professional athlete any differently than I would treat you or any of my other friends or family members. Don't think of it in terms of not giving due respect to athletes, rather think of it in terms of the degree of respect I accord my friends and family that I would elevate them to at least as high a status as I do my favorite football players. There's better human idols out there than professional athletes if one needs someone to worship.

I don't have a jersey for similar reasons as you, but then again I don't wear any shirt that advertises anything so perhaps my reasons are a bit broader than yours. My only exception is the Seahawks flag flying outside my house.

But on the individual awards thing, here is my take. I, like you, don't look to athletes as role models and wouldn't treat them any different than my friends. And because I'd root for my friends to get recognition at their jobs and I share in their happiness when they get it, I root for individual Seahawks to get recognition in their jobs and share in their happiness when they do.

Oly wrote:I don't have a jersey for similar reasons as you, but then again I don't wear any shirt that advertises anything so perhaps my reasons are a bit broader than yours. My only exception is the Seahawks flag flying outside my house.

But on the individual awards thing, here is my take. I, like you, don't look to athletes as role models and wouldn't treat them any different than my friends. And because I'd root for my friends to get recognition at their jobs and I share in their happiness when they get it, I root for individual Seahawks to get recognition in their jobs and share in their happiness when they do.

That the difference. Bobby Wagner and Russell Wilson are not close, personal friends of mine. If they were, then I could definitely get excited about individual awards they might win and I might even wear their number with their name on the back if they were worthy of my friendship. But I don't known anymore about them than I read or hear on the TV and they don't know me from Adam.

And I, too, fly a Seahawks sky blue 12 flag outside my home, and have plenty of Seahawks paraphernalia at home and on my vehicles, but that's all orientated towards the team, not to any specific individual.

RiverDog wrote:
I am not casting you or anyone else's opinion in a bad light. I am simply explaining my own point of view and said nothing about other people wasting their money on jerseys or anything else. If I did feel that way, I'd have damn few friends as I fully recognize that my opinion is a minority POV. But one advantage I can claim with my choice of jerseys over the majority of my friends selections (I have a home blue #12 personalized with "River Dog" printed on the back) is that they can't trade him and he can't hold out.

I was not angry with you. All I was doing was asking you to accept my opinion at face value.

I kinda feel like you do, whether intentionally or not because it's not just stating your opinion about it and being done with it, you tell us every single chance you get, to the point that it dominates conversations not even intended to be on that topic.

c_hawkbob wrote:I kinda feel like you do, whether intentionally or not because it's not just stating your opinion about it and being done with it, you tell us every single chance you get, to the point that it dominates conversations not even intended to be on that topic.

If you or anyone else wants me to "be done with it" and don't want it to dominate a topic, then don't respond. If you do respond and I don't happen to agree with how you characterize my opinion as HC characterized it, then you can expect a retort.

OK, so don't respond to anything you post, ignore all the little digs and judgements, accept that you've the right of it, and we are just wrong. Got it.

Should make for a wonderful experience for all.

I am not casting you or anyone else's opinion in a bad light. I am simply explaining my own point of view and said nothing about other people wasting their money on jerseys or anything else. If I did feel that way,

Absolutely, nothing says "positive" like telling someone they worship players or owners and are wasting their money... I mean I don't know how I missed it.

HumanCockroach wrote:OK, so don't respond to anything you post, ignore all the little digs and judgements, accept that you've the right of it, and we are just wrong. Got it.

Should make for a wonderful experience for all.

Absolutely, nothing says "positive" like telling someone they worship players or owners and are wasting their money... I mean I don't know how I missed it.

Where was it that I said you or anyone else was guilty of worshiping players? All I said was that I chose not to buy stuff because it made me feel as if I was worshiping a player. That does not imply that because someone else buys something that I think they're expressing some form of worship in doing so.

No, that certainly isn't how you expressed your opinion, and you then backed it up with the wasting money comment. Whether you do or don't is completely irrelevant, don't, do whatever, claiming someone is wasting their money, or placing a player on a pedestal or worshipping them because they buy a jersey isn't an opinion, but a judgement.

RiverDog wrote:Where was it that I said you or anyone else was guilty of worshiping players? All I said was that I chose not to buy stuff because it made me feel as if I was worshiping a player. That does not imply that because someone else buys something that I think they're expressing some form of worship in doing so.

RD, I think the difference between what you just said above and what you said earlier ("There's better human idols out there than professional athletes if one needs someone to worship.") is worth noting.

When you talk in the first person 'I', everyone knows you're just sharing something about yourself and how you go about things, but when you say the same thing in the third person, it does sound like you are painting others with your brush.

Is it simply semantics? Yes.
Does it make a meaningful difference? I think so.

I-5 wrote:RD, I think the difference between what you just said above and what you said earlier ("There's better human idols out there than professional athletes if one needs someone to worship.") is worth noting.

When you talk in the first person 'I', everyone knows you're just sharing something about yourself and how you go about things, but when you say the same thing in the third person, it does sound like you are painting others with your brush.

Is it simply semantics? Yes.
Does it make a meaningful difference? I think so.

Yes, it is semantics, and if you're looking for a "gotcha" in the way I worded things, then you probably caught me writing something that I did not intend to be interpreted as you or HC may have, and for that, I'll apologize. In the future, I'll try to do a better job of explaining myself.

So let me state this and I'll leave the subject: I do not buy or wear professional athletes names and/or numbers because it makes ME feel like I am worshiping them. I do not necessarily think that others believe they are worshiping said athletes because they buy/wear such apparel.

Better?

Absolutely, better. It isn't a "gotcha" moment if multiple people misunderstand your intent RD, it's a misunderstanding that could have been cleared up with your follow up post.