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Goodby Mr. Ali. I was never a big boxing fan, but he transcended the world. My first thought of him was lighting the Olympic Flame in the LA Coliseum and his turn with the WWF. He was a class act considering what the US did to him for his stance against serving in the US Military.

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oopps double post

Wow - Float Like a Butterfly.... Sting Like a Bee.

Truly an Icon. What a terrific Man. The World is not as good as it was yesterday. Some holes can never be filled. Ali was really the greatest.

RIP Champ.

Best ever and a personal hero. What a loss.

RIP Champ.

I didn't like him at all in the 60's and 70's as I felt that he was unsportsmanlike and unpatriotic, my opinion definitely being influenced by my dad, of whom I had an enormous amount of respect for.

But as I grew older, and as Ali faded from the scene, I began to realize that he was right about a lot of things, and ahead of his times as I struggled to catch up with the times. I feel badly that his life was shortened due in part to his sport, as I understand that they've attributed his Parkinson's disease to repeated blows to his head.

It's too bad that he didn't live longer (he's essentially been dead for a decade or longer) as I think he could have done a service to a lot of us in understanding life from the point of view he experienced it from.

The Vietnam war ended the year I was supposed to be drafted. Nixon "nixed" the draft. I didn't even have to go the PO and fill out the form.
Ali's refusal to serve wasn't really discussed negatively, if anything, in my limited household (my Mom and I).

River, that show's how families are different. I didn't know it until years' later, but my Mom had already set me up to go live with her Sister on Vancouver island if I was drafted. Her Sister told me that at my Mom's funeral. Nobody asked my opinion.

She was very anti-Vietnam, but considered herself very Patriotic and a Republican.

1. Rip Champ! You were great in and out of the Ring.
2. The kids today owe the fact that they don't have to be drafted to Ali.
3. The Draft was illegal as it was applied to Vietnam. You could only use the Selective Service act for a War. We never declared War on the govt of North Vietnam.
4. The Draft was UN_Constitutional It violated the 13 Amendment against Slavery and involuntary servitude. Nixon ended the draft only due to the fact (IMHO) that the next step after winning the case Cassius Marsellus Clay, Jr. also known as Muhammad Ali v. United States was to take it back to the SCOTUS and have the draft finally declared Un_Constitutional. They can now bring it back and use it long enough for it to work its way back to the SC.
5. Ali and the left were right on Vietnam.
6. The Right was right on Communism.
7. River and I would have paid big money to see Marciano vs Ali in their primes!

jshawaii22 wrote:River, that show's how families are different. I didn't know it until years' later, but my Mom had already set me up to go live with her Sister on Vancouver island if I was drafted. Her Sister told me that at my Mom's funeral. Nobody asked my opinion.

She was very anti-Vietnam, but considered herself very Patriotic and a Republican.

I became eligible in 1972 when I turned 18, although by that time not only had we gone all volunteer, the war was already winding down. I still had to register and they actually assigned me a 'random sequence number' based on a lottery of birthdates, and my number was 004. It used to be that you had to carry that draft card on your person at all times. I once heard of an individual that was asked by a cop during a traffic stop to produce it.

Anyway, you're right about the differences in families. My dad, a WW2 vet, would have killed himself had I been drafted and refused to serve, so regardless of any personal feelings I had about the war, I would have served simply to do what was expected of me by my family.

I don't believe we'd gone all volunteer by 72, the draft ended the summer before my senior year (would have been in 74 as I graduated in 75), I remember it specifically because we had recruiters at our school and they were pitching the Navy pretty hard my junior year as a way to avoid being drafted and having to carry a rifle through the jungle ... then in my senior year they had to change their pitch because it was all volunteer by then.

My step dad hated Ali (would only refer to him as Cassius Clay), called him unpatriotic and a coward and all that, took a lot of arguing that refusing the draft on religious grounds was the kind of pure bravery he was always saying we needed to show in adherence to our religion. Ali could have sign up with fanfare and done the USO tour for 2 years ala Joe Lois and never seen battle and he knew it. Instead he stood up for his beliefs in the face of a government clearly in the wrong and for it was stripped of his title and his right to box for what should have been the best 3 1/2 years of his career. Yet he held his ground and eventually became the conscience of an America coming to grips with it's own morality. Dad never did give him his props, but at least he shut up about him.

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't believe we'd gone all volunteer by 72, the draft ended the summer before my senior year (would have been in 74 as I graduated in 75), I remember it specifically because we had recruiters at our school and they were pitching the Navy pretty hard my junior year as a way to avoid being drafted and having to carry a rifle through the jungle ... then in my senior year they had to change their pitch because it was all volunteer by then.

My step dad hated Ali (would only refer to him as Cassius Clay), called him unpatriotic and a coward and all that, took a lot of arguing that refusing the draft on religious grounds was the kind of pure bravery he was always saying we needed to show in adherence to our religion. Ali could have sign up with fanfare and done the USO tour for 2 years ala Joe Lois and never seen battle and he knew it. Instead he stood up for his beliefs in the face of a government clearly in the wrong and for it was stripped of his title and his right to box for what should have been the best 3 1/2 years of his career. Yet he held his ground and eventually became the conscience of an America coming to grips with it's own morality. Dad never did give him his props, but at least he shut up about him.

The draft ended on Jan. 27th, 1973, so technically, you're correct. I turned 18 in October of '72, graduated from high school in June of '73. Although they could legally do so, they weren't drafting 18 year olds, 19 was as young as they went although you could still volunteer at 18.

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/01/u ... 973-072085

It had been talked about for a long time. It was one of Nixon's campaign promises in '68 that he didn't keep, didn't want to go all volunteer until after the '72 election so as to draw as big of a distinction between him and anti war candidate George McGovern. As soon as Nixon was inaugurated for his 2nd term in January of '73, he ended the draft.

Really cool Photo - Maybe the two biggest Cultural Icons of the 20th Century?

savvyman wrote:Really cool Photo - Maybe the two biggest Cultural Icons of the 20th Century?

Icons.jpg

I remember that picture. My dad didn't like the Beatles any better than he liked Ali.

I'd limit the cultural icon time frame to the baby boomer generation, though.

I'll bet your Dad was a big John Wayne fan...

jshawaii22 wrote:I'll bet your Dad was a big John Wayne fan...

Of course, he was! But so was I, but to a lesser degree. I still like watching his old movies... The War Wagon, Cowboys, Sons of Katie Elder, et al.

I remember that picture. My dad didn't like the Beatles any better than he liked Ali.
I'd limit the cultural icon time frame to the baby boomer generation, though.

Hey, your one year older than me, exactly River. I was 18 in oct 73. Our dads were the same mold, although mine hated police actions, if drafted I would have gone, no question. However, I am functionally blind in one eye, so they would take me when I tried to volunteer in 2 years later. I cried when I couldn't go River, thinking my dad would be angry. Being a decorated vet of Hollandia, Biak, and Leyte, he came in said shut up, you don't know how lucky you are!! With my personality at 18, I would have just been cannon fodder, and I think he knew that.
My dad didn't love or hate Ali, he hated Jane Fonda.

obiken wrote:Hey, your one year older than me, exactly River. I was 18 in oct 73. Our dads were the same mold, although mine hated police actions, if drafted I would have gone, no question. However, I am functionally blind in one eye, so they would take me when I tried to volunteer in 2 years later. I cried when I couldn't go River, thinking my dad would be angry. Being a decorated vet of Hollandia, Biak, and Leyte, he came in said shut up, you don't know how lucky you are!! With my personality at 18, I would have just been cannon fodder, and I think he knew that.
My dad didn't love or hate Ali, he hated Jane Fonda.

Dad hated Jane Fonda, too. The old man was as patriotic as the 4th of July. I fly Old Glory in front of my house as much in memory for my dad as I do for the love of my country. I can feel him smiling down on me when I hoist it up the flagpole.

It sounds like we have a lot more in common besides being Seahawks fans.

I fly Old Glory in front of my house as much in memory for my dad as I do for the love of my country. I can feel him smiling down on me when I hoist it up the flagpole.

At what point are you going to take it down as we see our country spiral downward due to mismanagement & poor performance? Sorry River, no disrespect toward your Dad, but I couldn't resist.

My dad hated Ali and also refused to call him Ali, to him it was "Clay". But, he did eventually came around and before he died when he talked about Ali he called him Ali. A lot of people now discuss the war in Vietnam with a revisionists eye, you had to have lived during that era to understand just how divisive it really was, it tore the country apart. I still have no use for "chicken-hawks" and never will. We "collectively" treated the vets of that era like garbage and those scars are with us to this day, though there has been some effort at salving those wounds.