The Draft

[obiken]

Roster construction has very, very little to do with the value of a given NFL franchise. Market size, branding and stadium value are the biggest factors.

No question, Dallas could lose 10 games a year and still sell more jerseys and crap than anyone else!

[NorthHawk]

There's no question that the value of the franchises is increasing yearly, but teams are also money making machines for the owners, too and that's what drives the value up (not to mention the ego boost for
people with way more money than I could ever dream about).

Getting back to the Draft, I've always maintained it's all about selecting potential. This class of ours could all wash out or end up being Pro Bowlers. We don't really know what we have, yet. One of the UFA's
that I've been trying to find out about is RB BJ Emmons from FAU. He's from a relatively small school but transferred from Alabama after 2016. He's 6'0 and 220lbs but what caught my eye is how he's described
as a downhill runner who is aggressive and breaks tackles. From some of the descriptions he sounds a lot like Chris Carson unfortunately even in being injured often. However, if he is a lot like Carson, maybe
we can get 17 or 18 games combined out of the 2 RBs without losing the hard running attitude. The interior OL might have a surprise from the UFA crop as well with Jared Hocker from Texas A&M and Pier-Olivier Lestage
from Montreal. Both are Guards but are training to also play Center and Lestage has a video out where he snaps the ball with either hand depending on whether the DT lines up on the left or right side of him. There
aren't many good videos of Lestage, but what there is shows a guy who has a real nasty streak which is an attitude we could use right now but he will probably take a year or two on the PS to develop. Hocker has a
better pedigree playing on one of the better OL's in college last year and he looks like a strong candidate as a backup his first year. Maybe in a year or two our Center position will be one of strength not concern with
quality backups at Guard.

[c_hawkbob]

This year's draft was a complete one off. There has never been, and likely won't be again in our lifetimes a draft like this one. There were players that took a year off due to covid and didn't have a combine so teams were depending on "virtual" senior bowl workouts and pro days. There were player projected in the 6th round that went day one and two and players rated first or second that fell to the late rounds.

We knew this would happen going in and there were two schools of thought: 1) load up on draft picks and look at them like lottery cards, you can hit the jackpot in any round and 2) play it close to the vest and get the sure thing while you can. J&P made the decision last year to go with option 2 and traded away this year's draft capitol for players we knew the value of. And IMO, if you calculate in those trades this year's draft looks like this:

Round 1, round 3 and next years #1: S Jamal Adams. Superb value as already demonstrated. The only way this pick goes sour is if we fail to sign him. We won't.
Round 2, No. 56 overall: D’Wayne Eskridge. Decent pick, filled a need but I would have gone interior O-line here.
Round 4, No. 137 overall: Tre Brown. another decent pick (speed is the common denominator here between these last two picks)
Round 5: G Gabe Jackson.
Round 6: No. 208 overall: Stone Forsythe, OT, Florida, best value pick of the day, rated a third on most boards and as high as a second!
Round 7: DE Carlos Dunlap II.

This not not nearly as bad as y'all are making it out to be. I actually like it.

[obiken]

From CBS Sports:

Seattle Seahawks: D
Best pick: Sixth-round tackle Stone Forsythe is a good player with outstanding size at 6-8, 315 pounds. On a team that needs line help, he might play earlier than expected.

Worst pick: With the offensive line a mess, why not use their second-round pick on that or an offensive lineman, rather than receiver D'Wayne Eskridge?

The skinny: They didn't have a lot of picks because of trades — their first- and third-round picks went to the Jets in the Jamal Adams trade — but I didn't love what they did with the three picks they had. It was just OK.

[c_hawkbob]

From CBS Sports:

Seattle Seahawks: D
Best pick: Sixth-round tackle Stone Forsythe is a good player with outstanding size at 6-8, 315 pounds. On a team that needs line help, he might play earlier than expected.

Worst pick: With the offensive line a mess, why not use their second-round pick on that or an offensive lineman, rather than receiver D'Wayne Eskridge?

The skinny: They didn't have a lot of picks because of trades — their first- and third-round picks went to the Jets in the Jamal Adams trade — but I didn't love what they did with the three picks they had. It was just OK.

Right, that's what it looks like not counting the prior trades with this year's draft grade. Which way do you see as more accurate?

[NorthHawk]

This year's draft was a complete one off. There has never been, and likely won't be again in our lifetimes a draft like this one. There were players that took a year off due to covid and didn't have a combine so teams were depending on "virtual" senior bowl workouts and pro days. There were player projected in the 6th round that went day one and two and players rated first or second that fell to the late rounds.

We knew this would happen going in and there were two schools of thought: 1) load up on draft picks and look at them like lottery cards, you can hit the jackpot in any round and 2) play it close to the vest and get the sure thing while you can. J&P made the decision last year to go with option 2 and traded away this year's draft capitol for players we knew the value of. And IMO, if you calculate in those trades this year's draft looks like this:

Round 1, round 3 and next years #1: S Jamal Adams. Superb value as already demonstrated. The only way this pick goes sour is if we fail to sign him. We won't.
Round 2, No. 56 overall: D’Wayne Eskridge. Decent pick, filled a need but I would have gone interior O-line here.
Round 4, No. 137 overall: Tre Brown. another decent pick (speed is the common denominator here between these last two picks)
Round 5: G Gabe Jackson.
Round 6: No. 208 overall: Stone Forsythe, OT, Florida, best value pick of the day, rated a third on most boards and as high as a second!
Round 7: DE Carlos Dunlap II.

This not not nearly as bad as y'all are making it out to be. I actually like it.

With the Adams trade, you have to consider they also gave up a starting S in Bradley McDougald who wasn't a bad player in our system. So the evaluation is more of is Adams that much better than
McDougald + missing out on a stud OL, or RB, or maybe DT, not to mention the 3rd round pick this year AND next years 1st round pick? I don't think he's that much better. A 1st and a 3rd is probably
the most we should have given up because he's not the best S in the league and he is going to be a huge hit to the Cap next year. This giving up of picks to patch holes is becoming a strain on the Cap
as drafting good players is the best way to keep the Cap manageable.

I'm intrigued by Tre Brown and how Pete has changed his philosophy on measurables from long and lankey types at CB to players that can just play ball. I hope that ability to see the light filters into
the Offense and what they do.

Gabe Jackson should be an upgrade to Iupati if only because he doesn't have a chronic back problem, but is also a very good G. I wonder if Lewis has ever played LG before and if not if it's a good
idea to switch him there after settling in at RG last year. We will see I guess.

[c_hawkbob]

I disagree with your determination that Adams isn't that much better than McDougal. He absolutely is IMO!, and if you going to say "+ missing out on a stud OL, or RB, or maybe DT" you have also got to acknowledge the chances, enhanced this year as compared to others for reasons already stated, of completely whiffing on those early picks as Pete and John seem to do too often in the early rounds and getting nothing at all out of them.

[govandals]

From CBS Sports:

Seattle Seahawks: D
Best pick: Sixth-round tackle Stone Forsythe is a good player with outstanding size at 6-8, 315 pounds. On a team that needs line help, he might play earlier than expected.

Worst pick: With the offensive line a mess, why not use their second-round pick on that or an offensive lineman, rather than receiver D'Wayne Eskridge?

The skinny: They didn't have a lot of picks because of trades — their first- and third-round picks went to the Jets in the Jamal Adams trade — but I didn't love what they did with the three picks they had. It was just OK.

The national narrative that the O line is a mess is just lazy. I would say it was average or slightly above average last year. What pick at 56 would make the line markedly better? What pick at at 56 would displace Brown, Jackson, Shell or Lewis as starters? None. Mienerz, Josh Meyers or Kendrick Green would push Pocic for sure. The addition of one of those guys would've been nice, but I don't see the addition of any of them as a giant leap forward, at least in year one, anyway.

[mykc14]

The national narrative that the O line is a mess is just lazy. I would say it was average or slightly above average last year. What pick at 56 would make the line markedly better? What pick at at 56 would displace Brown, Jackson, Shell or Lewis as starters? None. Mienerz, Josh Meyers or Kendrick Green would push Pocic for sure. The addition of one of those guys would've been nice, but I don't see the addition of any of them as a giant leap forward, at least in year one, anyway.

I agree with this completely. There is no doubt that Eskridge is going to have more of an impact than any OL pick would have had THIS YEAR. I would have been happy with a Center, but the reality is you are set at RG,LG, and LT for the time being. Any LT you would have drafted at 56 probably would have been comparable to who we ended up getting at 208. By all accounts he is already NFL caliber at Pass Pro and now he has time to develop his Run Blocking. I actually like our draft overall and think that the three players we got, as a whole look pretty good and, like Bob noted, when you add Adams, Jackson, and Dunlap to the mix it looks really good.

[NorthHawk]

I disagree with your determination that Adams isn't that much better than McDougal. He absolutely is IMO!, and if you going to say "+ missing out on a stud OL, or RB, or maybe DT" you have also got to acknowledge the chances, enhanced this year as compared to others for reasons already stated, of completely whiffing on those early picks as Pete and John seem to do too often in the early rounds and getting nothing at all out of them.

They should be able to hit on at least 1 of the 3 early picks. This year we could have had Javonte Williams. Follow him this year and see how he does.
He's the perfect fit for what Pete wants to do - a big power back that breaks tackles and can catch out of the backfield.

Regarding Adams, I read that PFF had him ranked pretty low last year. That being said I don't think we have seen how Pete really wants to use him as he was forced to put him in the blitzing role far too often.
The PFF rankings for last year (an anomaly, I know but still not good for such draft capital) he had a grade of 64.2. That's got to improve this year if we want to see any value at all from this trade. In our system
McDougald rated as the 4th best cover Safety and rated 85.4 in his 2 years here.
Again, let's see how they use Adams this year to get a better handle on his fit - if we even re-sign him given our Cap space and use. Next year we have to re-sign or replace Duane Brown, Shell, Diggs, and of course Adams
plus others like Michael Dickson, Gerald Everett, DJ Reed, Penny etc. will have to be decided on.

[mykc14]

They should be able to hit on at least 1 of the 3 early picks. This year we could have had Javonte Williams. Follow him this year and see how he does.
He's the perfect fit for what Pete wants to do - a big power back that breaks tackles and can catch out of the backfield.

Regarding Adams, I read that PFF had him ranked pretty low last year. That being said I don't think we have seen how Pete really wants to use him as he was forced to put him in the blitzing role far too often.
The PFF rankings for last year (an anomaly, I know but still not good for such draft capital) he had a grade of 64.2. That's got to improve this year if we want to see any value at all from this trade. In our system
McDougald rated as the 4th best cover Safety and rated 85.4 in his 2 years here.
Again, let's see how they use Adams this year to get a better handle on his fit - if we even re-sign him given our Cap space and use. Next year we have to re-sign or replace Duane Brown, Shell, Diggs, and of course Adams
plus others like Michael Dickson, Gerald Everett, DJ Reed, Penny etc. will have to be decided on.

There are lots of guys we *could* have had each year. I agree I think Javonte Williams is a really good fit for us, but that doesn't mean we would have drafted him (remember we drafted Penny instead of Nick Chubb who also is a perfect fit for us). I think the Hawks really did a good job of assessing what was going to be available to them in the draft and addressing other needs through Free Agency. They didn't do anything to improve their WR room in Free Agency and it was a deep draft, they knew they could get a playmaker there with their first pick.

I think we gave up a ton for Adams. 2 firsts and a 3rd for a S is a lot. Obviously PC/JS feel like he is more than a safety, but they have to view him as a legitimate POY candidate (which he looked like during that Falcons game. I hadn't seen a safety play like that since Polamalu. The Hawks D was a mess most of the first part of the season and part of that had to be trying to figure out how to use #33. I'm holding off judgment until he has a full off-season to work with. It also will be important to see what happens with his contract. Even if we somehow don't resign him I would think that we could get at least a 1st rounder in a trade with somebody for him at some point. I don't think there is anyway we let him go into Free Agency, even if that means Franchise Tagging him twice (next year that projects to 13 million, the year after would be less than 15, and the year after that would be about 22 mil.). If it got to that point I am sure that Adams would be a huge headache for the Hawks, but the reality is, if the Hawks really wanted to play hardball they actually do have some leverage simply because the F-Tag for a Safety is so low compared to other positions. The same scenario for a WR would be like 20 mil, then 24 mil and then 34 mil...

As far a McDougal goes his impact on the game isn't even comparable to Adams. Yes, he was a fine player for us, but if you want to look at last year's grade he was a 41 at PFF.

[govandals]

I am very OK with this draft. Probably just low expectations with our lack of capitol, though.

I like the Eskridge pick. As long as we know how to use him. He was discussed as a good fit on a few other websites, so I think most fans are happy with the pick as there is some name recognition there. Rumor is the Rams wanted him a 57. I'll take him over Tutu Atwell any day. We need a WR3, but i would have preferred Mienerz, Josh Meyers or Kendrick Green for competition with Pocic and get a WR later as this draft was loaded with WRs.

The Tre Brown pick certainly surprised us all. So much for the 32" arm threshold. Pete says he will compete outside and he is not a nickel back. Crazy talk! lol He is feisty and plays with an attitude. We need that. Great ST player as well. I heard during the pre-draft process, he said he wanted to challenge DK Metcalf to a 40 yd dash. I love the enthusiasm but don't bite off more than you can chew, kid.

Stone Forsythe seems like a great value at a position of need. Lots of length, good pass pro. Teach him well Duane Brown!!

Cade Johnson was 112 on a big board somewhere. Can't remember where I saw that. Rob Staton over on SBD compared him to Tyler Lockett. I see more Doug Baldwin in his play. Or maybe it was the 15 jersey. lol I bet he makes the 53 man roster

Tamorrion Terry is probably better athlete than WR at this point. 6'4 ", 210 lbs and ran a 4.4 sec 40 at his pro day. Practice squad this year. Who knows next year, his ceiling is high.

Jared Hocker is a big Solari type guard. He should push Phil Haynes and maybe Jordan Simmons.

I gotta check out B.J. Emmons. Haven't researched him yet. Never heard of him before.

[NorthHawk]

There are lots of guys we *could* have had each year. I agree I think Javonte Williams is a really good fit for us, but that doesn't mean we would have drafted him (remember we drafted Penny instead of Nick Chubb who also is a perfect fit for us). I think the Hawks really did a good job of assessing what was going to be available to them in the draft and addressing other needs through Free Agency. They didn't do anything to improve their WR room in Free Agency and it was a deep draft, they knew they could get a playmaker there with their first pick.

I think we gave up a ton for Adams. 2 firsts and a 3rd for a S is a lot. Obviously PC/JS feel like he is more than a safety, but they have to view him as a legitimate POY candidate (which he looked like during that Falcons game. I hadn't seen a safety play like that since Polamalu. The Hawks D was a mess most of the first part of the season and part of that had to be trying to figure out how to use #33. I'm holding off judgment until he has a full off-season to work with. It also will be important to see what happens with his contract. Even if we somehow don't resign him I would think that we could get at least a 1st rounder in a trade with somebody for him at some point. I don't think there is anyway we let him go into Free Agency, even if that means Franchise Tagging him twice (next year that projects to 13 million, the year after would be less than 15, and the year after that would be about 22 mil.). If it got to that point I am sure that Adams would be a huge headache for the Hawks, but the reality is, if the Hawks really wanted to play hardball they actually do have some leverage simply because the F-Tag for a Safety is so low compared to other positions. The same scenario for a WR would be like 20 mil, then 24 mil and then 34 mil...

As far a McDougal goes his impact on the game isn't even comparable to Adams. Yes, he was a fine player for us, but if you want to look at last year's grade he was a 41 at PFF.

There was a comment from Pete or JS where they had lamented not taking Chubb when they had the chance. I hope that they learned something from that and would have taken Williams.
Regarding McDougald, it's a lot about the system fit. McDougald was what our system asks for and he did well here. Adams did well in Greg Williams system so there is no guarantee he will do well in ours.
However, he's a better athlete than McDougald and has a higher upside. We'll see how they really intend to use him this year, I would think as our pass rush should be better out of the gate.
I'm not sure tagging would be effective. He could just say no, I'm not playing for that amount of money and we would be stuck with no player, 3 high draft choices, and a starting Safety being traded.
We traded for him knowing full well he wants to set the market for Safeties so it's possible he might be looking at just short of Jalen Ramsay money. After all, we did give up a similar haul of draft capital.
Could we trade him? If other teams know we can't re-sign him we might not get even a 1st round pick. We will certainly be lowballed by offers and some teams may just think we will have to cut him and
wait until we do to bid for his services. Trading for a player without extending or re-signing them quickly can lead to real headaches down the road.

[obiken]

Cbob, River, ASHF, and everyone else, here is a minor rant, as I dont do major rants anymore. You guys love the Hawks as much as I do, no doubt about that, but we were barely a Playoff team last year, we the softest schedule in years, we lost some games we should not have lost and were lucky to win some that we should not have won. The Ram and Pats games to name a few. Where most of you and I will have to agree to disagree, is how good is our Oline? I think it is C+/B- at best. We got a good LT who is long in the tooth, Lewis who next year will be good not great, and the other guard was an upgrade but come on, the rest are Steve August types at best. Cards just got a killer Center, as did the Niners, the Rams, nuff said there. Everett was a big grab but we got him for one year. Our Running game is adequate at best IF Chris Carson stays healthy. Russ will be 33 in Nov, we have seen the best football out of RW, he is not going to disappear of course, but come on he is not as quick as he used to be, and he is not TB, RW cannot play till he is 40 without major upgrades. The Chargers attacked their Oline needs, the Chiefs added an All-pro Center and an All-Pro Left Tackle, and none of the Brady Bunch left for new jobs yet. So to say that we are even close to a Championship class team is a joke. Moreover, as I said before our window is closing and I stand by that. Moreover, do you want me to address the holes on defense, naw didnt think so. AS always I hope I am wrong but I dont think I am. Next year I am off PC completely. Love you guys!

[RiverDog]

Cbob, River, ASHF, and everyone else, here is a minor rant, as I dont do major rants anymore. You guys love the Hawks as much as I do, no doubt about that, but we were barely a Playoff team last year, we the softest schedule in years, we lost some games we should not have lost and were lucky to win some that we should not have won. The Ram and Pats games to name a few. Where most of you and I will have to agree to disagree, is how good is our Oline? I think it is C+/B- at best. We got a good LT who is long in the tooth, Lewis who next year will be good not great, and the other guard was an upgrade but come on, the rest are Steve August types at best. Cards just got a killer Center, as did the Niners, the Rams, nuff said there. Everett was a big grab but we got him for one year. Our Running game is adequate at best IF Chris Carson stays healthy. Russ will be 33 in Nov, we have seen the best football out of RW, he is not going to disappear of course, but come on he is not as quick as he used to be, and he is not TB, RW cannot play till he is 40 without major upgrades. The Chargers attacked their Oline needs, the Chiefs added an All-pro Center and an All-Pro Left Tackle, and none of the Brady Bunch left for new jobs yet. So to say that we are even close to a Championship class team is a joke. Moreover, as I said before our window is closing and I stand by that. Moreover, do you want me to address the holes on defense, naw didnt think so. AS always I hope I am wrong but I dont think I am. Next year I am off PC completely. Love you guys!

A couple of points: We weren't "barely" a playoff team. We had a 12-4 record, won our division, and finished with the 3rd seed, losing out on the 2nd seed by virtue of a tiebreaker. WFT won their division with a losing record and the Bears snuck in with a .500 record by virtue of an expanded playoff system. Those two teams could be accurately characterized as "barely" a playoff team, not the Hawks.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, our offensive line in 2020 wasn't that bad. PFF, the gold standard for objective, fact based rankings, had us as the 14th overall, 16th in pass protection. IMO Russell's complaints are overblown. A major part of the reason why he's getting sacked so much is due to his own style of play:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

Defense was our Achilles heal last year, or at least that was the perception early in the season and explains why Pete/JS burned some draft picks before the trading deadline by acquiring players like Adams, Diggs, and Dunlap. We were undefeated and at that point, we were considered legitimate SB contenders, so we pushed our chips to the center of the table in an effort to get us over the hump. It was a reasonable calculation that didn't work out.

I think we have a chance on improving the OL unit even though we didn't spend a lot of capital on it. Gabe Jackson is a legitimate starter and has the capability to improve the team. Duane Brown had his best season in his career last year and should be good for another couple seasons if he can stay healthy. If Lewis can clean up some aspects of the game, specifically his penalties, and adjust to the left side of the line, an easier move for a guard than it is for a tackle, he has the potential to play at a Pro Bowl level. We brought back Ethan Pocic, a veteran at a position where there's a premium placed on experience. At this point, I'm OK with the moves we made to improve the unit given the lack of resources.

[NorthHawk]

The team as a whole hasn't really improved.
Jackson replaces Iupati and is an upgrade. Lewis moving to LG might be cause for struggle early as he adapts. Brown is getting older and I haven't heard if he wants to play much longer than this contract, but
perhaps Forsythe can develop into a starting LT. The running backs are thin with Carson and Penny not showing the ability to stay healthy.
The DL has better outside pass rush, but if we can't get a push up the middle, the OL's will have an easier day just pushing our DE's to the outside and the QB free to step up in the pocket.
Currently the LBs are a downgrade unless they can re-sign KJ. DB's are a push at best.

Meanwhile the Rams have improved at QB and considering they beat us handily at home with a backup QB later replaced with the starter who had a broken thumb, they will be even tougher.
The 49ers will be healthy again and they've added some good players so we should expect them to really test us.
The Cards got better on both sides of the LoS and should also be harder to beat considering we always have trouble with them anyway.

From my perspective we are just treading water at this point and don't really have an identity while other teams in our division are improving.
The only thing we have is Russell Wilson who pretty much won the first bunch of games with his play.

Does anyone really think we are a near Super Bowl contender? I don't think we are anywhere close as we saw in the single playoff game we had last year we were out talented, out coached, and out physicaled by
our arch enemies. They mauled us on both sides of the LoS and we haven't done much of anything to improve it to the degree needed to win any games in the playoffs.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think we're a Super Bowl contender right now. Mainly because the league is weak right now. A 43 year old QB on his last couple of years won the Super Bowl in 2020 against a young Kansas City QB everyone thought was unstoppable. No one else was really that great. Even Aaron Rodgers in an MVP year is basically getting a few last hurrahs before he retires. Buffalo looks like an up and comer. The Rams do one thing well: compete against us. Otherwise they aren't that great. Frisco's Garrapolo experiment is coming to an end. Who knows how good Kyler Murray will be. He's getting the benefit of the doubt early on, but he's a few hard hits away from a wake up call.

So yeah, right now with the League in disarray, us having a top 5 QB, we're one good run away from being a Super Bowl contender. This isn't the NFL with a dominant Steelers, New England with Brady, the Colts with Peyton, or anything of the kind. This is a league looking for its next set of superstars looking to replace the ones retiring or leaving. Even Brees is gone. We have one of those superstars at QB.

Until I see a few teams with talent turn that into dominance, then Seattle has as good a shot as anyone to put together a strong run if they can have things land right with injuries, performance, and coaching come playoff time. Pete needs to get his head out of his ass, find some of that magic he had and John had the first five years, and relax and get focused during playoff time, especially on defense. He can make a run.

[NorthHawk]

I see where you are coming from and the optimist in me agrees, but the "Spock" part of the brain doesn't agree.
The Bucs beat KC largely because KC didn't have either starting Tackle and the TB DE's had a field day. What did they do? The rebuilt their OL in one off season. We'll see how well they did this year.
We, on the other hand have solidified our OL to some degree - the interior certainly with a question mark at Center, but the interior of our DL is much weaker. I don't see a tandem of Woods and
Poona getting pressure up the middle that we need. Jarran Reed played very well when he had help on the outside, and could get 8 - 10 sacks should he be here with Hyder and Dunlap. That's going
to be difficult to patch over. Does it mean we have to continue to blitz to get interior pressure? I hope not because that weakens our Defense. I don't think the secondary is any better, either with
Adams being a wild card in that we will see him in a role that Pete envisioned without having to get him involved in the pass rush to the same exent.

We will have to disagree on the Rams. The addition of Stafford should make them instant contenders in every game they play. I think his game is really suited to McVey's Offense and strategy. The
49ers just by being healthy have a much better team than us. The Cards have upgraded both of their LoS. That's just our division.

For us the great unknown is the impact of Waldron on the Offense and whether or not Pete can keep his hands off of it enough to let it fully develop. When we run into a bad game on Offense, it will
answer that question pretty quickly. He has seemed to abandon the measurement requirement for DB's so maybe there's hope he can evolve on the Offensive side, too. It will be what determines
Wilson's future in Seattle.

[mykc14]

I see where you are coming from and the optimist in me agrees, but the "Spock" part of the brain doesn't agree.
The Bucs beat KC largely because KC didn't have either starting Tackle and the TB DE's had a field day. What did they do? The rebuilt their OL in one off season. We'll see how well they did this year.
We, on the other hand have solidified our OL to some degree - the interior certainly with a question mark at Center, but the interior of our DL is much weaker. I don't see a tandem of Woods and
Poona getting pressure up the middle that we need. Jarran Reed played very well when he had help on the outside, and could get 8 - 10 sacks should he be here with Hyder and Dunlap. That's going
to be difficult to patch over. Does it mean we have to continue to blitz to get interior pressure? I hope not because that weakens our Defense. I don't think the secondary is any better, either with
Adams being a wild card in that we will see him in a role that Pete envisioned without having to get him involved in the pass rush to the same exent.

We will have to disagree on the Rams. The addition of Stafford should make them instant contenders in every game they play. I think his game is really suited to McVey's Offense and strategy. The
49ers just by being healthy have a much better team than us. The Cards have upgraded both of their LoS. That's just our division.

For us the great unknown is the impact of Waldron on the Offense and whether or not Pete can keep his hands off of it enough to let it fully develop. When we run into a bad game on Offense, it will
answer that question pretty quickly. He has seemed to abandon the measurement requirement for DB's so maybe there's hope he can evolve on the Offensive side, too. It will be what determines
Wilson's future in Seattle.

The Chiefs were smart this off-season and fixed their only real hole, but you can't compare us to a team who is still paying their QB on a rookie contract. The Chiefs time is coming and its going to be tough for them as well next year. They 'only' have 7 mil in projected space but also only have 24 players signed to contract. They have to fill out over half of their roster with 7 million. It can't happen. They are going to have to begin making tough decisions very soon before they are in the exact same situation as us. You can't pay everybody. We won the division last year and had 12 wins. Yes, the niners are going to be better, the Cards should be better, and the Rams probably are a little better. We were 4-2 vs. those teams last year. I imagine we will probably be somewhere between 2-4 and 4-2 against them this year. It is a tough division no matter what. Based on how good our division is and the fact that only 1 team gets a first round bye the odds of getting that #1 seed is slim anyways. We will be competing for a playoff spot and we just need to stay healthy and be playing well at the end of the season.

As far as our OL goes, like River said we weren't bad last season as a unit. Iupati was bad. We made a huge upgrade with Jackson, even if he isn't the player he was a few years ago. Lewis will be better, even with a position change (an easy position change) just because it is his second year. Pocic should be a little bit better, after starting a full season at center, and I was pleasantly surprised by Brandon Shell. Combine that with an offense that moves the QB around and I think you will see our OL is fine.

Overall I don't agree with the assertion that our DL is going to be much weaker. Losing Reed hurts, but I think we are going to be way more flexible in what we can do with our DL packages. The idea of Dunlap, Hyder, Mayowa, and Tylor/Robinson/Green in passing situations puts us in a much better situation than we had last year. Our starting DL of Dunlap, Ford, Woods, and Hyder is better than Dunlap, Ford, Reed, and Mayowa, IMO. Overall we just have more depth. Reed had one good season and showed flashes of becoming a 10 + mill a year player but wasn't consistent and PFF had him at a 56 overall grade.

On defense the only real issue is replacing our RCB who played good, but not great. I do think whoever ends up starting there will be a downgrade, but I expect our pass rush to be better so it should off-set our issues at RCB. Also, the Hawks will have a full season + Offseason to fit Adams into our defense and finally decide how they want to use him.

Overall my reasons for optimism are that I believe our DL got better overall, especially our pass rush, and we should have a better idea of how to use one of the best defensive players in the league (Adams). I also think we improved at the RG/LG/TE/WR#3 positions. This combined with an offensive system that should better fit the style of our Franchise QB should make for a much better offense than we saw at the end of the season.

[RiverDog]

Does anyone really think we are a near Super Bowl contender? I don't think we are anywhere close as we saw in the single playoff game we had last year we were out talented, out coached, and out physicaled by our arch enemies. They mauled us on both sides of the LoS and we haven't done much of anything to improve it to the degree needed to win any games in the playoffs.

Yet 3 weeks earlier, we beat that same Rams team by two scores. It's pretty hard to rate a team based on their performance in one game.

I'm neither optimistic or pessimistic. I honestly don't know what to expect. People have the tendency to evaluate our chances in a vacuum, in other words, without regard to the issues surrounding the teams around us. Will Aaron Rodgers return to the Packers? Will the Saints be able to replace Drew Brees? Will Mathew Stafford fit into the Rams offense? There's a lot of unknowns.

[NorthHawk]

I’m pretty comfortable saying Stafford is much better than Goff or whoever his backup was.
That those two QBs did so well against us shows how much better they can be. Now that they have
a legitimate QB who has seen it all and is cool under pressure, they should be even tougher to beat.

[mykc14]

I’m pretty comfortable saying Stafford is much better than Goff or whoever his backup was.
That those two QBs did so well against us shows how much better they can be. Now that they have
a legitimate QB who has seen it all and is cool under pressure, they should be even tougher to beat.

I think another thing we tend to do is look at what other teams have gained in FA and not look at what they lost. The Rams are a good example and they were in a tough cap situation. They lost many starters and major contributors in FA: C, DT, DT, CB, RB, TE, S, WR... all of those positions they lost played at least 40% of their snaps last year. The Hawks on the other hand only lost 3 players who played at least 40% of their possible snaps from last year: DT (Reed), WR (Moore), and CB (Griffen). There are 2 more LG and OLB but neither of those guys have signed elsewhere yet so they aren't "lost" yet. There is still a chance we bring back KJ and we didn't want to bring back Iupati anyways.

[Aseahawkfan]

I see where you are coming from and the optimist in me agrees, but the "Spock" part of the brain doesn't agree.
The Bucs beat KC largely because KC didn't have either starting Tackle and the TB DE's had a field day. What did they do? The rebuilt their OL in one off season. We'll see how well they did this year.
We, on the other hand have solidified our OL to some degree - the interior certainly with a question mark at Center, but the interior of our DL is much weaker. I don't see a tandem of Woods and
Poona getting pressure up the middle that we need. Jarran Reed played very well when he had help on the outside, and could get 8 - 10 sacks should he be here with Hyder and Dunlap. That's going
to be difficult to patch over. Does it mean we have to continue to blitz to get interior pressure? I hope not because that weakens our Defense. I don't think the secondary is any better, either with
Adams being a wild card in that we will see him in a role that Pete envisioned without having to get him involved in the pass rush to the same exent.

We will have to disagree on the Rams. The addition of Stafford should make them instant contenders in every game they play. I think his game is really suited to McVey's Offense and strategy. The
49ers just by being healthy have a much better team than us. The Cards have upgraded both of their LoS. That's just our division.

For us the great unknown is the impact of Waldron on the Offense and whether or not Pete can keep his hands off of it enough to let it fully develop. When we run into a bad game on Offense, it will
answer that question pretty quickly. He has seemed to abandon the measurement requirement for DB's so maybe there's hope he can evolve on the Offensive side, too. It will be what determines
Wilson's future in Seattle.

And that's the NFL and why Seattle has as good a chance as anyone. There is no fixing of issues. KC's tackles were great prior to the "fix." If they get injured again or the opposing defense plays lights out, then even the best QB can be made to look pedestrian. That's the NFL.

[RiverDog]

I’m pretty comfortable saying Stafford is much better than Goff or whoever his backup was. That those two QBs did so well against us shows how much better they can be. Now that they have a legitimate QB who has seen it all and is cool under pressure, they should be even tougher to beat.

Those two QB's were a combined 12-29 for 169 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's and a QBR of 48. I wouldn't call that "doing so well". The best that can be said of their performance is that they didn't lose the game and did a good job of managing it. It was the Rams defense and Akers running that beat us in that game.

I don't know what to expect out of Stafford. In his entire career, he's played in just 3 playoff games, losing all 3. To say that he's never won a big game is a gross understatement. Was it all on his team, that for all those years, he was surrounded by a bunch of stooges, or does he have some responsibility for those horrific results? Will his new teammates accept him? Will he meld seamlessly into McVay's system? IMO there's a lot of unknowns out there.

I'm not saying that Stafford will fizzle with the Rams, but likewise, I don't think you can be as confident that he's going to be a significant upgrade as you appear to be.

[Aseahawkfan]

Those two QB's were a combined 12-29 for 169 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's and a QBR of 48. I wouldn't call that "doing so well". The best that can be said of their performance is that they didn't lose the game and did a good job of managing it. It was the Rams defense and Akers running that beat us in that game.

I don't know what to expect out of Stafford. In his entire career, he's played in just 3 playoff games, losing all 3. To say that he's never won a big game is a gross understatement. Was it all on his team, that for all those years, he was surrounded by a bunch of stooges, or does he have some responsibility for those horrific results? Will his new teammates accept him? Will he meld seamlessly into McVay's system? IMO there's a lot of unknowns out there.

I'm not saying that Stafford will fizzle with the Rams, but likewise, I don't think you can be as confident that he's going to be a significant upgrade as you appear to be.

I don't get the fear of Stafford either. He doesn't worry me. Never won a playoff game. He crumbles like a sand castle during high tide when getting hit. He's an upgrade because Goff isn't great, but Stafford is hardly a world beater. Never has been. He's in this 12th year. He's a solid, above average QB in the NFL. That's about it. Russell is better than Stafford and is a proven winner.

[RiverDog]

I don't get the fear of Stafford either. He doesn't worry me. Never won a playoff game. He crumbles like a sand castle during high tide when getting hit. He's an upgrade because Goff isn't great, but Stafford is hardly a world beater. Never has been. He's in this 12th year. He's a solid, above average QB in the NFL. That's about it. Russell is better than Stafford and is a proven winner.

It's not that Stafford doesn't worry me. Every NFL quarterback worries me. We have this habit of making run of the mill, pedestrian quarterbacks look like HOF'ers, and Stafford could easily hang 80 in two games on us. It's just that I don't think that the addition of Stafford automatically makes the Rams a better team. This could be another Bret Favre to the Jets or Kurt Warner to the Giants proposition or it could propel them to the Super Bowl ala Nick Foles. It all depends on the team chemistry, if he fits the concept and fits the locker room.

[obiken]

I don't get the fear of Stafford either. He doesn't worry me. Never won a playoff game. He crumbles like a sand castle during high tide when getting hit. He's an upgrade because Goff isn't great, but Stafford is hardly a world beater. Never has been. He's in this 12th year. He's a solid, above average QB in the NFL. That's about it. Russell is better than Stafford and is a proven winner.

Come on guy, the ONLY QB I feared was Elway. However, he is a major upgrade to Goff. He has a lot more weapons and an Oline, add to that, he knows this is his last hurrah to be great. The Niners get all their people back, they were last years roving MASH unit. IF JG stays healthy, and yeah that is HUGE IF, he is more than capable of beating our defense. The Cards added pieces as well. Its going to be a tough year. 10-7 is what I predict.

[Aseahawkfan]

Come on guy, the ONLY QB I feared was Elway. However, he is a major upgrade to Goff. He has a lot more weapons and an Oline, add to that, he knows this is his last hurrah to be great. The Niners get all their people back, they were last years roving MASH unit. IF JG stays healthy, and yeah that is HUGE IF, he is more than capable of beating our defense. The Cards added pieces as well. Its going to be a tough year. 10-7 is what I predict.

All their guys back? Like who? Who are all these guys that are going to make us look so bad?

We have plenty of high quality guys too. I don't know why you overlook them. We have plenty of guys to make them look bad. And we do all the time.

People keep talking up these other teams like they are going to magically morph into something great. Why? Why are we worse than our record and they are better than their record? In my mind teams are what they are.

The 49ers the last five years:
2020: 6-10
2019: 13-3
2018: 4-12
2017: 6-10
2016: 2-14

49ers been a bunch of crap since Harbaugh left. Not sure why you think they are going to flame to life and take us out.

LA Rams
2020: 10-6
2019: 9-7
2018: 13-3
2017: 11-5
2016: 4-12

Rams are closer to contention, but their players may be falling off as well if ours are.

So why exactly are we somehow overperforming and they're what...underperforming? It's not logical. Teams are what they are. The fact is we have the better QB and the better coach. We can make a run as well. We're as good as any of those teams and our record shows as such.

So quit making excuses for enemy teams while trying to make it seem like we haven't had our share of injuries well like Chris Carson and all our RBs going down at the end of 2019. Or losing key defensive players during 2020 like Bruce Irvin or our rookie draft pick getting injured or Will Dissly and Greg Olsen getting hurt.

Not like we've gone into the postseason healthy either. If we had, we might make more of a run. We're as good or better than every team in the NFC save perhaps Tampa. We can make a run.

[jshawaii22]

49ers start with a lame duck QB in Grappalolo and a roll-of-the-dice in a newly drafted kid that started a full year in Div3 for exactly 1 year, 2 years ago. It would seem to me that if the QB position doesn't get better neither will the team, but on the other side they did have a outrageous number of season ending injuries and if Bosa and the others come back as they played in 2019 when they went 13-3, they could be very tough out no matter who their QB is.

[c_hawkbob]

I haven't chimed in a lot in this thread recently because it seems Asea has been pretty much making my points as I follow the conversation and I don't want to seem redundant.

[obiken]

All their guys back? Like who? Who are all these guys that are going to make us look so bad?

Come on they are going have Boza back, Kittle back, and I said IF JG stays healthy. WE barely beat them with major weapons out. You really think we are going to roll the niners with those guys in? No one was making excuse for them. We had a schedule last year that was as soft as butter, we will get the playoff schedule this year. We'll see ASHF.

[NorthHawk]

Here are the players they lost for large parts of the season:

OFFENSE:
QB Jimmy Garoppolo (ankle) TE George Kittle (foot) WR Deebo Samuel (hamstring) RB Raheem Mostert (ankle) RB Tevin Coleman (knee) RB Jeff Wilson (calf) C Weston Richburg (knee/shoulder)
C Ben Garland (calf) TE Jordan Reed (ankle/knee) WR Jalen Hurd (knee) WR Tavon Austin (knee) WR Dante Pettis

DEFENSE:
DE Nick Bosa (knee) DL Solomon Thomas (knee) DE Dee Ford (neck/back) LB Mark Nzeocha (quad) CB Richard Sherman (calf) S Jaquiski Tartt (groin) DL Ronald Blair (knee) DL Jullian Taylor (knee)
DL Ezekiel Ansah (bicep) LB Azeez Al-Shaair (hamstring)

Say what you will about Garoppolo, but there is some other serious talent not able to play on both sides that should be ready for this year.
Just by being healthy they will be much improved.

[obiken]

Thanks NH, I really appreciate it. I am not down on our team but come on, I am not a mindless cheerleader either. I am not saying he is either but for ASHF and I, its only a matter of degree.

[Aseahawkfan]

Come on they are going have Boza back, Kittle back, and I said IF JG stays healthy. WE barely beat them with major weapons out. You really think we are going to roll the niners with those guys in? No one was making excuse for them. We had a schedule last year that was as soft as butter, we will get the playoff schedule this year. We'll see ASHF.

We had a playoff schedule last year. It was only soft because those teams went soft. There's no reason to believe they will suddenly flair to life. I don't know why you think they will.

But as usual we'll see. A bunch of people been predicting no playoffs for Seattle the past 3 years plus and we just keep on making the playoffs and won the division last year.

Fact is obiken no matter how you want to spin it we have the best QB in the division and one of the best QBs in the league and that means a lot in the modern NFL. It's worth more than an Aaron Donald or a Nick Bosa. Until that changes, we always got a shot any year.

[Aseahawkfan]

Here are the players they lost for large parts of the season:

OFFENSE:
QB Jimmy Garoppolo (ankle) TE George Kittle (foot) WR Deebo Samuel (hamstring) RB Raheem Mostert (ankle) RB Tevin Coleman (knee) RB Jeff Wilson (calf) C Weston Richburg (knee/shoulder)
C Ben Garland (calf) TE Jordan Reed (ankle/knee) WR Jalen Hurd (knee) WR Tavon Austin (knee) WR Dante Pettis

DEFENSE:
DE Nick Bosa (knee) DL Solomon Thomas (knee) DE Dee Ford (neck/back) LB Mark Nzeocha (quad) CB Richard Sherman (calf) S Jaquiski Tartt (groin) DL Ronald Blair (knee) DL Jullian Taylor (knee)
DL Ezekiel Ansah (bicep) LB Azeez Al-Shaair (hamstring)

Say what you will about Garoppolo, but there is some other serious talent not able to play on both sides that should be ready for this year.
Just by being healthy they will be much improved.

We'll see if they're healthy for one. And that's the NFL. We lost players for large parts of the season as well. We gutted it out and made the playoffs. Things happen every year to every team.

For some reason some Seattle fans make excuses for those other teams, but make it seem like Seattle was at full strength with everything perfect and we're just lambs waiting for these other teams to beat us. And we're not and never have been. We compete every year because we're a good team with a great QB. And that's going to give us a chance to make a run every year as long as Russ is here healthy.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2020_injuries.htm

Seattle Injuries
Bruce Irvin start of the season
Greg Olsen: 5 games
Quinton Dunbar
Marquise Blair
Tre Flowers
Lano Hill
Branden Jackson
Rashaad Penny
Rasheem Green: 6 games
Jamal Addams: 3 games

But hey, Seattle injuries don't matter. Just the injuries of other teams. I keep forgetting that's how the NFL works. Other teams get injured and become worse, but Seattle gets injured and its not relevant. My bad. I'll have to remember to always check the injuries of other teams, ignore Seattle's injuries, then do a magical calculation showing how much better the other teams will get while ignoring Seattle's injuries in that calculation then by magic every other team will end up beating us. Then I'll send a letter to Pete and Russ telling them they shouldn't even bother taking the field because these other teams healthy will just beat us and take the division.

I'm sorry. I don't think that's how it works. We still have the juice to make a run. I wouldn't count us out of anything.

[TriCitySam]

This is a good team, and 12-4 is REALLY hard for any team to accomplish. And to be in that zone consistently? REALLY, REALLY hard. You can't ask anymore of a front office than to keep their team competitive. Parcells used to say "1/3 of the league has it figured out, 1/3 are trying to figure it out, and 1/3 will never figure it out. PC and JS have it figured out....when they are gone and we get to be the bottom 1/3, then complain all you want. These are the "good old days"......ENJOY!

[obiken]

Fact is obiken no matter how you want to spin it we have the best QB in the division and one of the best QBs in the league and that means a lot in the modern NFL. It's worth more than an Aaron Donald or a Nick Bosa. Until that changes, we always got a shot any year.

Okay, I hope you and River are right, I really do.

[Hawktawk]

This is a good team, and 12-4 is REALLY hard for any team to accomplish. And to be in that zone consistently? REALLY, REALLY hard. You can't ask anymore of a front office than to keep their team competitive. Parcells used to say "1/3 of the league has it figured out, 1/3 are trying to figure it out, and 1/3 will never figure it out. PC and JS have it figured out....when they are gone and we get to be the bottom 1/3, then complain all you want. These are the "good old days"......ENJOY!

Yes I get all that. Still it was a tale of 2 seasons for the offense ending in a thud at home with Russ having his worst playoff performance ever, 11-29 with Donald on the pine and on a team facing a QB with a broken thumb who wasn't supposed to play. Bad bad bad.

Then Russ goes off whining to anyone who will listen about needing better protection. Its BEEN the good old days but they've not been as good lately. After a lombardi and back to back championship appearances the second of which pete and Darrell definitely DIDNT have it figured out it has just been fading away. I thought the 12-4 record was hollow last year and the rams proved it pronto. one and done 2 of the last 3 years and not a single divisional win since 2014.souffle defense . Its Holmgren redux circa 2006-2007.I think there's more question marks than any time since 2012, especially in the locker room. If they get back this year they really do have it figured out.

[RiverDog]

This is a good team, and 12-4 is REALLY hard for any team to accomplish. And to be in that zone consistently? REALLY, REALLY hard. You can't ask anymore of a front office than to keep their team competitive. Parcells used to say "1/3 of the league has it figured out, 1/3 are trying to figure it out, and 1/3 will never figure it out. PC and JS have it figured out....when they are gone and we get to be the bottom 1/3, then complain all you want. These are the "good old days"......ENJOY!

Yes I get all that. Still it was a tale of 2 seasons for the offense ending in a thud at home with Russ having his worst playoff performance ever, 11-29 with Donald on the pine and on a team facing a QB with a broken thumb who wasn't supposed to play. Bad bad bad.

Then Russ goes off whining to anyone who will listen about needing better protection. Its BEEN the good old days but they've not been as good lately. After a lombardi and back to back championship appearances the second of which pete and Darrell definitely DIDNT have it figured out it has just been fading away. I thought the 12-4 record was hollow last year and the rams proved it pronto. one and done 2 of the last 3 years and not a single divisional win since 2014.souffle defense . Its Holmgren redux circa 2006-2007.I think there's more question marks than any time since 2012, especially in the locker room. If they get back this year they really do have it figured out.

And there represents the dilemma, the glass half full vs. the glass half empty. Both sides have a very defensible POV's.

The further away we get from that Lombardi, the less satisfied I am with simply making the playoffs, winning our division, or posting a very respectable 12-4 regular season record. Thus for the past several years, I've been migrating more and more to the glass half empty argument.