Deflation - Doh!

[Hawktawk]

RD airing up the footballs in a hot humid environment(such as near a whirlpool or a sauna) is a very plausible scenario for what happened.That would also be "in or very near the locker room" And It was Billacheat that brought it up by denying it. I thought it was curious at best.I wonder if it was a coded message to the persons currently being interviewed to STFU. I'm convinced thats what they did now and its genius in a way. They can truthfully say they aired the balls up to the right pressure before inspection and did not tamper with them afterwards. However they knew the balls would universally deflate by a significant amount in time for Tommy Boy to have his Nerf ball to play with, clearly tampering with the rules.And again it wasn't the first allegation of it by an opponent so they probably had it pretty well perfected. Its the Patriot way and the asterisk will never go away.
I still think someone is going to get hit hard with penalties before its all said and done.

[Seahawks4Ever]

" I just don't understand why it was so important that Brady rub up and play with his own balls"- Probably 'cause he can't lick them his pet dog...

[RiverDog]

RD airing up the footballs in a hot humid environment(such as near a whirlpool or a sauna) is a very plausible scenario for what happened.That would also be "in or very near the locker room" And It was Billacheat that brought it up by denying it. I thought it was curious at best.I wonder if it was a coded message to the persons currently being interviewed to STFU. I'm convinced thats what they did now and its genius in a way. They can truthfully say they aired the balls up to the right pressure before inspection and did not tamper with them afterwards. However they knew the balls would universally deflate by a significant amount in time for Tommy Boy to have his Nerf ball to play with, clearly tampering with the rules.And again it wasn't the first allegation of it by an opponent so they probably had it pretty well perfected. Its the Patriot way and the asterisk will never go away.
I still think someone is going to get hit hard with penalties before its all said and done.

Footballs are not 'aired up' in a locker room and teams don't get them when they are completely flat. They are aired up at the factory during manufacture and teams get them relatively close to their desired PSI. They may have topped them off by giving them a pump or two in warm, humid conditions, but that little bit of air isn't going to change the result of the pressure check by 15%. Besides, even if they were aired up in the manner you state, we have to get back to the fact that the Colts balls would have been 'aired up' with the same air as the Pats and subject to the same loss of pressure.

[jshawaii22]

I just don't see this moving toward a conclusion like Bountygate. As much as we (as 'other' teams' fans) would love to see Brady bounced for 4+ games and the Coach suspended for year, don't bet on it. Deliberately hurting your opponent ranks just a little above this... like 10 vs 1 on a scale of 10.

js

[Hawktawk]

Footballs are not 'aired up' in a locker room and teams don't get them when they are completely flat. They are aired up at the factory during manufacture and teams get them relatively close to their desired PSI. They may have topped them off by giving them a pump or two in warm, humid conditions, but that little bit of air isn't going to change the result of the pressure check by 15%. Besides, even if they were aired up in the manner you state, we have to get back to the fact that the Colts balls would have been 'aired up' with the same air as the Pats and subject to the same loss of pressure.[/quote]

I've said it many times. If I ever go to trial I want you as the foreman of my jury RD. Billacheat himself said the balls were "aired up either in our locker room or very near there" which contradicts what you believe about this. The Colts equipment manager dealt with their footballs separately and had no issues. There is nothing to say the equipment managers didn't stick the needle in the balls and deflate them before refilling them before they were ever submitted to the officials for inspection. 50 interviews and no discussions with Billacheat or Brady tells me the league already doesn't believe them and that this is going to be an exhaustive investigation.
I saw Brady interviewing on NFL network last night. His scruffy beard and his fiery personality were gone. He looked meek, like the kid in the principals office. I've never really seen him that way.
They are busted and its going to cost them.

[Hawktown]

regardless how the balls got deflated, it is on management just like every other issue people want to throw management under the bus for. They were flattened, period! The whole team needs to pay a penalty of some sort, along with the people at the top who are ultimately responsible for their team/organization. If Sean Peyton knew nothing, he sure paid the price for it, well, because he is responsible. Same with Bill. I wouldn't mind Brady being made an example of and get suspended for a year along with Bill. I know that won't happen though. We will be lucky to see them miss a game.

[Futureite]

I have a lot of questions about this. Admittedly, I have not followed the entire story, because it is flat out (no pun intended) to silly to waste time on. So I may be unaware of certain facts. With that in mind, these some questions which I feel are relevant;

(1) The NFL allows for an acceptable variance of inflation for the footballs ranging from 11-12.5 PSI. I heard on ESPN Radio that Andrew Luck prefers his balls inflated on the high end and Brady prefers his on the low end. The balls may deflate by 1 PSI or more with a drop in temperature. Therefore, Any change in temperature could therefore result in near full under inflation of all Pats balls and acceptable inflation of all Colts' balls.

(2) Are the balls handled separately at halftime by each respective team? If so, the manner in which the balls are stored, treated, and prepped could effect the PSI for each respective ball.

(3) How much ratable advantage does an under inflated ball provide? Can this be quantified or at least estimated? Of course, most tactical advantages cannot be estimated. But I listened to the Pats' beat writer state in an interview that minimizing the Pats potential advantage because of the point differential in their victory is akin to stating that a baseball player who hit 3 home runs with PEDs would have still hit 2 without them. He believes all cheating is the same. I do not see it that way.

PEDs create a clear advantage. They enhance athletic performance. You can actually measure the increase in athletic performance with and without PEDs. For a baseball player, they increase bat speed, reaction time and power (force X speed). I have not heard anyone offer a credible explanation for how an under inflated football creates a ratable competitive advantage. Purportedly, an under inflated ball is easier to grip. This in turn effects throwing and catching. But how much does it effect either? Can anyone really say with any level of confidence that it creates an unfair advantage?

The whole thing appears to be a bit corny to me. On the one hand, I want the Pats punished if they did cheat. And they have a history of cheating. On the other hand, as a fan, I'd rather hear about football. I don't really care about deflated footballs.

[kalibane]

1. The balls were 2 psi under the minimum inflation level. I heard it would require an 80 degree difference in temperature to account for the difference between the PSI when they were checked pregame and when they were checked at half time.

2. Both teams supply an equal number of balls they are checked by the refs and then given to the custody of the NFL ball boys/men and rotated in and out of the game.

3. The advantage of an underinflated ball is it's easier to grip. Troy Aikman for instance is on record of having significantly more trouble dealing with a wet ball in the elements. The implication being that if they were worried about Brady's ability to get velocity on the ball, the ability to catch the ball and to maintain control of it, then deflating the ball gives you an advantage they shouldn't have had.

It's a marginal advantage at best but I think the real issue is that organizationally they have shown themselves to be willing to break rules to get a competitive advantage and this isn't the first time they've been caught.

[monkey]

1. The balls were 2 psi under the minimum inflation level. I heard it would require an 80 degree difference in temperature to account for the difference between the PSI when they were checked pregame and when they were checked at half time.

2. Both teams supply an equal number of balls they are checked by the refs and then given to the custody of the NFL ball boys/men and rotated in and out of the game.

3. The advantage of an underinflated ball is it's easier to grip. Troy Aikman for instance is on record of having significantly more trouble dealing with a wet ball in the elements. The implication being that if they were worried about Brady's ability to get velocity on the ball, the ability to catch the ball and to maintain control of it, then deflating the ball gives you an advantage they shouldn't have had.

It's a marginal advantage at best but I think the real issue is that organizationally they have shown themselves to be willing to break rules to get a competitive advantage and this isn't the first time they've been caught.

Nailed it.

[HumanCockroach]

Several advantages, it severely limits the occurence of fumbles ( did the Pats run the ball a lot in that last game? ) as well as limiting the time in the air on tips. An Espn radio guy pointed out that NE fumbled the ball like 30 times on the road, losing something like 24 while only fumbling 2 at home the entire season. Something seems pretty fishy there. Would be interested to see a multiple season breakdown in that regard.

I don't think anyone rationale is claiming it cost the Colts the game, the issue is with cheating, and doing so with knowledge that you are indeed doing it. Someone knew what was going on, on some level in that organization, and most definitely Brady knew at some point early in that game, regardless of what he professes, simply no way did he not know he was using deflated footballs.

[NorthHawk]

It looks like they might have found their Patsy (sorry, I had to use that term) with a locker room attendant:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... attendant/

There's no doubt in my mind he was not acting on his own volition.

[kalibane]

Saw that and if they are staying it stops there what a joke. Brady just went over how particular he was about not wanting balls messed with after they are how he likes him.

Sal Palantonio also made an interesting point the other day. Tom Brady (and Manning) was the guy responsible for making sure road teams could use their own balls because he was so particular. Tom Brady is on record as saying he wants the balls exactly at 12.5 psi (the minimum allowable) because it's "perfect". He also is on record as saying he prefers under inflated balls.

Now you mean to tell me some rogue equipment manager took it upon himself to further deflate the balls when Tom Brady just made it crystal clear that once he signs off he would be furious if someone started monkeying with them? Please.

At this point it's not even about the inflation of the balls, or even the blatant attempt to commit a jaywalking level cheating offense. Now you're just lying and insulting my intelligence.

[PasadenaHawk]

I loved the comments on the article.

[mykc14]

Yeah, I hope the guy throws them all under the bus. I wonder how much Brady would offer the guy to take the fall. "You know those balls I asked you to take down a few psi? Well it turns out my legacy is going to be ruined if somebody doesn't take the fall, and... how much is it going to cost me for you to be that guy? "

[c_hawkbob]

The balls are delivered to the team 3 hours before the game inflated to 12.5 Psi. I just heard Dean Blandino on the Rich Eisen show explaining the process on my way back to the plant from a meeting at the main office so I know this to be an accurate statement.

The only thing that could have happened to account for the decrease in ball pressure from that delivery time to the when the balls were checked at halftime would be having air removed from them.

The temperature difference is a non starter because only the Patriots balls were under spec.

In that game it doesn't matter a single bit, the pat's would have won that game throwing pillows or rocks just as easily (besides, all the real scoring was done in the second have, with legit balls) so I won't comment on balls or air pressure any more.

But I will say that the pattern of the Patriots' willingness to skirt the rules this further demonstrates should be dealt with during the offseason.

[mykc14]

In that game it doesn't matter a single bit, the pat's would have won that game throwing pillows or rocks just as easily (besides, all the real scoring was done in the second have, with legit balls) so I won't comment on balls or air pressure any more.

There is not doubt about that but it stands to reason that this was not the first game this had happened. The Ravens game might have ended much differently had they been using regulation pressure (if they were using deflated balls).

[c_hawkbob]

There is not doubt about that but it stands to reason that this was not the first game this had happened. The Ravens game might have ended much differently had they been using regulation pressure (if they were using deflated balls).

But there's no proof of anything in that or any other game like there is in this one, which is why the demonstrated pattern is what needs to be addressed, not the single incident.

[mykc14]

But there's no proof of anything in that or any other game like there is in this one, which is why the demonstrated pattern is what needs to be addressed, not the single incident.

I know that this doesn't really count as evidence but I heard from a friend that knows a guy who once watched a football game that featured a young Tom Brady throwing a TD pass to Deon Branch who threw the ball into the stands and a guy caught it and said it was underinflated. No, just joking, but seriously I have read 'blurbs' about the NFL being alerted to this after earlier games this season, including the aforementioned Ravens game. Alas, I agree it doesn't count as 'proof' so no demonstrated pattern exists, at least on yet.

[RiverDog]

12.5 PSI is the minimum allowable. The range is 12.5 to 13.5. Reports are that 11 of the 12 Patriots balls were as much as 2 psi under the standard when tested at halftime.

Kal's estimate of an 80 degree delta T needed to account for a 2 psi loss sounds more reasonable than the 20-40 degree difference that was present that evening, but even that does not take into account the amount of time required for the temperature inside the ball to lose 80 degrees. The time needed to experience such loss would be measured in hours, not the 90-100 minutes in which they were outside prior to being tested again. Some of these explanations, including Belichick's in his press conference, are laughable.

IMO the most likely explanation is that an equipment manager or some other employee of the Pats with access to the footballs acted on Brady's preference for under inflated footballs and knowing he would have a wink and a nod from Brady, took a needle to them and let some air out. This may excuse Brady but it does not excuse the Pats or Belichick, who as HC, is responsible for everything on the field. If the team is granted custody of the footballs, it is their responsibility to maintain them at the league mandated pressure.

But even my scenario can't be proven and seems unlikely. Based on an interview I heard, the team does not have more than a few minutes from the time the refs give them the footballs and the time the game starts, not enough time to inconspicuously tamper with 11 footballs. Brady will get a pass. No way will the union sit still for any discipline to one of their members based entirely on circumstantial evidence. Any discipline will be overturned on appeal to an arbitrator. Based on past history and that they are not covered by the CBA as Brady is, Belichick and/or the Pats may receive some form of discipline, but my guess that unless more is discovered than we know now, this story stops here.

IMO what should happen going forward is that the league abolish the rule allowing teams/quarterbacks to pre-handle game balls. Let the refs maintain custody from start to finish, including during the game.

[HumanCockroach]

According to the manufacturer, the PSI drop do to weather is a complete and utter, flat out lie, with no merit what so ever. The balls are specifically made to hold their PSI in all weather conditions, and baring putting them in a freezer, the excuse of the drop in temp is "complete BS".

Add in this video of the Pats equipment guy taking the balls out of the refs custody, and to another room, and there is some serious questions that need to be asked of the ENTIRE organization. Simply no way does this guy take it upon himself to do this on his own volition, none, no matter what the league says, Bellichick says, Brady says or Kraft says.....

If the league tries to float this as an excuse, they will be setting a horrid example for every single team in the league, the players and insulting each and every fan, including the Pats fans.

[Futureite]

1. The balls were 2 psi under the minimum inflation level. I heard it would require an 80 degree difference in temperature to account for the difference between the PSI when they were checked pregame and when they were checked at half time.

2. Both teams supply an equal number of balls they are checked by the refs and then given to the custody of the NFL ball boys/men and rotated in and out of the game.

3. The advantage of an underinflated ball is it's easier to grip. Troy Aikman for instance is on record of having significantly more trouble dealing with a wet ball in the elements. The implication being that if they were worried about Brady's ability to get velocity on the ball, the ability to catch the ball and to maintain control of it, then deflating the ball gives you an advantage they shouldn't have had.

It's a marginal advantage at best but I think the real issue is that organizationally they have shown themselves to be willing to break rules to get a competitive advantage and this isn't the first time they've been caught.

Those are all good points about the Deflatriots. I think your last sentence is what this is really all about. Otherwise, we've already seen Brady play incredibly well in inclement weather throughout his career (Tuck game, for example), and it is hard to believe that the PSI was altered in each instance. But, he is older and may be experiencing the initial stages of arthritis in his hands, etc. So maybe it helps him more now than we know.

I know that when I played QB, an under inflated ball died quick. Especially in cold air. In terms of velocity, I preferred more inflation. But I also had small hands, and they'd tighten up especially quick in cold weather to the point that I could barely hold the ball. So if the ball was too inflated I could barely hold it if was cold that day. So, maybe the most accurate way to state this is that the deflation helped to mitigate problems that otherwise would have prevented him from playing his normal brand of ball, rather than to enhance his performance. I still feel as though this a lot about nothing.

But, I am no fan of the Patriots. So whatever they get is fine by me . I think this is an epic SB - one of the best in years - and I hope we get to hear more about the match ups etc in the following days instead of deflated footballs.

[Futureite]

This may shed some light on things:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/2 ... lp00000592

[RiverDog]

According to the manufacturer, the PSI drop do to weather is a complete and utter, flat out lie, with no merit what so ever. The balls are specifically made to hold their PSI in all weather conditions, and baring putting them in a freezer, the excuse of the drop in temp is "complete BS".

Yep. And a lot of us called B.S. the second it was proposed as an explanation. Anyone that has monitored their car tire air pressure in cold weather knows roughly how much of a temperature change and for what length of time is required for it to change in order to have a significant effect on the air pressure to the tune of a 15% difference.

It was an insult to my intelligence, as was Belichick's theory of rubbing footballs having something to do with the pressure. If Belichick actually believes what he said in his presser, then I'm shocked to learn that overall intelligence of a HOF head football coach is that low so as to believe such rubbish. Are they all that stupid? If some technician at work came to me with excuses like Belichick gave, I'd fire him for incompetence.

[Futureite]

I've heard a lot of angry engineers calling into local and national sports radio to express their opinion that the common person has no basis to begin analyzing anything related to PSI. This is science. I have no basis to say what could and could not happen, and I doubt that anybody here does either. I know that my car tires use to regularly lose 1-2 PSI overnight in cold weather of less than 40 degrees. If I am not mistaken, the footballs I use to throw in sub 30 degree weather would deflate somewhat as well. It's pointless for anyone without an extensive background in science to explain what is and is not reasonable. If the NFL has video of that equipment manager doctoring the balls, then there is some legitimate evidence. Reports are that they may in fact have that.

[HumanCockroach]

Something tells me those irate engineers are Patriots fans than, because both scientist AND the Manufacturer of the balls, has said it is complete BS. Not a scientist, but a I do know a drop from 70 to 50 degrees isn't going to cause your tires to deflate that much, and the fact that you are using your tires overnight in cold weather as an example is weird. NE temps never dropped below 48 degrees prior to half time ( which is when they took all of the Pats footballs) you are talking about overnight, and 1 1/2 hours, not remotely the same, and a severe drop in temp, over what was experienced. Dismissing that the Colts footballs didn't react in any way similiarly to the Patriots ( meaning though the temps were the same, both where inflated AND where used) you have somehow come to the conclusion, that this is a viable reason..

HOW you came to that reason is beyond me and the fact that irate engineers said the same is just one more reason for me to feel unsafe in whatever engineers like that happen to be working on. The Manufacturer of the footballs, said it was " complete and utter BS" as well as numerous scientists, so I'm sticking with them, considering I also played a lot of games in cold weather, and understand completely what happens with footballs ( not nearly as drastic as you are saying they were) and the manufacturer specifically said the balls were made specifically to be used in all weather conditions, I'm going with BS, it was NOT the weather.

IF the balls were slightly below the required PSI I could almost believe it, but that wasn't the case, they weren't "slightly" under, they were DRASTICALLY under. According to Wilson, UNLESS the balls went from a sauna, and then immediately placed in a freezer for a couple hours, the lost PSI would be negligible, and certainly when moving them from 70 to 50 degrees.

[Clem7]

The ball boy wrinkle.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/pat ... ar-AA8CEwY

[c_hawkbob]

This has gotta be him!



* probably no, but well, you know

[burrrton]

I've heard a lot of angry engineers calling into local and national sports radio to express their opinion that the common person has no basis to begin analyzing anything related to PSI. This is science.

*sigh*

I couldn't give a solitary sht about this nonsense, but stow the "THIS IS SCIENCE™" baloney.

Any actual engineer in any hard science knows:

1. This requires nothing beyond freshman physics to calculate to the degree of precision in play, so is well within the grasp of anyone with a high school diploma.
2. "Science" makes no distinctions based on credentials, so demands just the opposite of what you imply.

And for the record, I haven't run the numbers (see first sentence), but I don't have a problem with BB's explanation.

[RiverDog]

I've heard a lot of angry engineers calling into local and national sports radio to express their opinion that the common person has no basis to begin analyzing anything related to PSI. This is science. I have no basis to say what could and could not happen, and I doubt that anybody here does either. I know that my car tires use to regularly lose 1-2 PSI overnight in cold weather of less than 40 degrees. If I am not mistaken, the footballs I use to throw in sub 30 degree weather would deflate somewhat as well. It's pointless for anyone without an extensive background in science to explain what is and is not reasonable. If the NFL has video of that equipment manager doctoring the balls, then there is some legitimate evidence. Reports are that they may in fact have that.

Come on, man! It doesn't take an engineer or a mathematician to figure it out. This isn't rocket science. It's information that is readily available to anyone smart enough to do a google and smart enough to perform grade school arithmetic (apparently this doesn't include Bill Belichick).

The rule of thumb is for every 10° Fahrenheit change in air temperature, tire pressures will change about 2% (up with higher temperatures and down with lower)

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/ ... ?techid=73

We know that the footballs were originally tested to be at 12.5-13.5 psi minutes before the game and reported to have changed by 2 psi when measured a little less than 2 hours at halftime. Using those known facts, we can figure out how much the temperature would have had to have changed in order to suffice as a reasonable explanation for the deflation to have occured:

2 psi loss divided by 13 psi equals .1538, or 15 percent loss of psi. That's how much air pressure, expressed in a percentage, that was lost between measurements.
15% loss of pressure divided by 2% psi (amount of psi lost when temperature changes 10 degrees) is 7.5.
7.5 times 10 degrees (temperature change required to reduce pressure by 2%) equals 75 degrees F.

So in order for a change in temperature to have accounted for a pressure drop of 15% it would have taken a 75 degree F change in the environment they were in when the second test was performed, and the game time temperature was reported to have been 51 degrees F, or about 20 degrees less than room temperature. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that the balls were outside for less than 2 hours when they were re-tested. There's no way for a change in air temperature to have accounted for the loss of air pressure that was reported to have occured.

Am I missing something?

There are other things that could account for the lower readings. Perhaps the instruments, ie pressure gauge, was not accurate enough to record a 2 psi drop and could have been mis read by who ever was testing them, or perhaps who ever was testing the Pats footballs inadvertantly let some air out before taking their reading. But please don't tell me that it was a change in air temperature.

[Zorn76]

I dunno.

Maybe Vince Wilfork was using the Pat's game balls as a beach chair just prior to them being put in play.

I'm just glad they're the ones with all the BS going on.

Robert Kraft's "science" reference was laughable, though, particularly since they already know that, under last Sunday's game/weather circumstances, there's no way they coulda lost 2 lbs psi naturally.

But, whatever.

It just makes for more motivation to kick their azz on the field, if our guys our looking for another added mental edge to begin with.

[burrrton]

RD, this is in *no way* meant to defend the Patriots on this, but I don't think it's as simple as taking the two gauge readings and subtracting & dividing to get the percentage drop- you have to take atmospheric pressure into account (absolute pressure), which isn't complicated but it makes it a much smaller % drop.

Add to that all the other potential factors that could have come into play that you mention/allude to and I just come to the conclusion that I really don't give a crp.

(all this being said, I won't be floored if they do find evidence of wrongdoing, either)

[edit]

I do acknowledge, though, how many sources are calling bullsht on the excuse, and I'll defer to them if they disagree with my take on it.

[Clem7]

Now it is the referees at fault.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/rep ... ar-AA8DMF1

[Distant Relative]

The rule of thumb is for every 10° Fahrenheit change in air temperature, tire pressures will change about 2% (up with higher temperatures and down with lower)

Answer me this. If you take a tire off of a vehicle that doesn't have 1 thousand pounds off weight on it will it loss as much pressure as the other 3 tires with the vehicle putting weight on them?

Strange comparison as a football isn't anywhere near a tire that has 1 thousand pound load on it.

[RiverDog]

Answer me this. If you take a tire off of a vehicle that doesn't have 1 thousand pounds off weight on it will it loss as much pressure as the other 3 tires with the vehicle putting weight on them?

Strange comparison as a football isn't anywhere near a tire that has 1 thousand pound load on it.

I'm using the car tire comparison because everyone else, from Futureite to Bill Belichick, seems to think it's applicable. If you don't think it's relevant, then show us how isn't.

I've loaded up my small utility trailer with a ton of rocks and seen the two 10" tires look flat, but I put a tire gauge on them and they haven't lost any air pressure. 35 psi works when it's empty, but with the added weight, I've had to air them up 50 psi in order for them to regain the same shape they had when the trailer is empty. The added weight affects the rigidity of the tire, causes it to change its shape, but it doesn't change the air pressure, at least not so one can notice it on a tire gauge. The weight of the trailer isn't evenly applied to the entire area of the tire, only on the part that's contacting the ground, so the air seeks the area of least resistance on the tire and changes the shape of the tire rather than increasing air pressure.

Besides, even if the weight of the car affected pressure, so long as the weight of the car didn't change, ie it's the same weight sitting inside your garage at 60 degrees as it is sitting in a parking lot when it's 10 below zero, the weight of the car would not be a factor in a decrease in air pressure.

Does answer your question?

[Hawktawk]

The reason the car tire theory doesn't work is the volume of air is so much greater hence a greater potential to expand or deflate. This is more true the larger the tire.If the football manufacturer says they wont fluctuate much without human intervention Ill believe him before Kraft or Billacheat.

So now today its the refs fault. The balls were under inflated but they approved them anyway. If that were truly the case WTF are we doing at this stage of the investigation!!!!! Between the Cheatriots and Goodell they are attacking the narrative of their obvious guilt more like a politician than a defendant or the subject of an investigation.
Follow the storyline folks. Remember how Brady couldn't answer yes or no when asked if he was a cheater? Remember Billacheat tossing him under the bus? Well the wagons are circled now and even Kraft is in on the act, daring to scold the media and other teams for not trusting his team and coach.He demanded an apology if there was not "conclusive" evidence, an interesting choice of words. He reportedly called Billacheat a "schmuck" after spy gate but now hes never trusted anyone more. MM-MM OK....Brady, who benefited from illegal film for 7 years and 3 SB wins had "hurt feelings" Its an amazing job of flipping the script.

Ive come to truly believe this will be swept under the rug by Goodell. Moreover I am really worrying about how Sundays game will be called by officials who work for a commissioner who is best buddies with Robert Kraft. It will bear watching. If they XL us I'm going to start practicing my golf game on Sundays in the fall. Honestly... don't go there.

[RiverDog]

The reason the car tire theory doesn't work is the volume of air is so much greater hence a greater potential to expand or deflate. This is more true the larger the tire.

Expansion and contraction of the tire or football isn't the question. What we are trying to determine is how temperature affects air pressure. As gasses cool, they contract, and if they stay within the same confinement, the pressure will decrease.

Perhaps the relationship between temperature and air pressure isn't a straight line function, that the rate of pressure loss or increase changes as it gets colder or warmer. But until someone shows me that the 2% change in air pressure for every 10 degrees change in temperature isn't valid, I'll stand by my remarks.

I heard that the ball boy theory fell apart, that the room he was going into was a bathroom, and he was in there for 90 seconds, not enough time to deflate 11 footballs. Now Bob Kraft is demanding an apology. He should demand an apology from his coach for going out there and offering up such stupid explanations.

[Distant Relative]

Does answer your question?[/quote]

Nope! Why the hell are we comparing footballs to tires again?

35 psi works when it's empty, but with the added weight, I've had to air them up 50 psi in order for them to regain the same shape they had when the trailer is empty.

I just find this comparison laughable. I'm done talking about this crap. My last post about deflated balls.

Go Hawks!

[Hawktawk]

Expansion and contraction of the tire or football isn't the question. What we are trying to determine is how temperature affects air pressure. As gasses cool, they contract, and if they stay within the same confinement, the pressure will decrease.

Perhaps the relationship between temperature and air pressure isn't a straight line function, that the rate of pressure loss or increase changes as it gets colder or warmer. But until someone shows me that the 2% change in air pressure for every 10 degrees change in temperature isn't valid, I'll stand by my remarks.

I meant pressure when I said expansion or deflation. But as you say if indeed 2% per 10 degrees doesn't account for 15% below after 2 hrs in those atmospheric conditions. Id be curious if there is any video of previous home games that would show if the ball boy was taking 24 balls in the bathroom with him every week for 90 seconds?Or is Goody only going to *investigate* that particular game?We keep hearing it was only approximately 90 seconds and that it would take 7.5 seconds to remove air mot counting time to remove and replace them in the bag. If this was a well rehearsed practice the time frame is sufficient, especially considering one of the balls was properly inflated.A better question is why did he take them in there? Obviously there was video evidence if anyone had tampered with them in the 90 seconds he was supposedly taking a leak. What a raft of sh1t!!The whole thing is ridiculous.I detest the Pats more than ever and I didn't much like them before.
Like ET said a few months ago to the refs in ST Lois"just let us dominate" Seattle can flatten Brady and Billacheats balls permanently.

[RiverDog]

Does answer your question?

Nope! Why the hell are we comparing footballs to tires again?

35 psi works when it's empty, but with the added weight, I've had to air them up 50 psi in order for them to regain the same shape they had when the trailer is empty.

I just find this comparison laughable. I'm done talking about this crap. My last post about deflated balls.

Go Hawks![/quote]

Good advice for someone that doesn't have anything substantive to offer to the discussion.

[Distant Relative]

Good advice for someone that doesn't have anything substantive to offer to the discussion.

Nice stab RD.

Do me a favor and read the first page of this thread and tell me again.

You are the man RD.