Re-make, Re-model

[c_hawkbob]

Never seen so many edits in one thread ...

[RiverDog]

Never seen so many edits in one thread ...

I'm not sure what your point is, but I'll plead guilty to your observation. Sometimes when I read things back after I see it posted I pick out spelling or grammar errors, other times I think of a better way to say the same thing. Think of it as instant replay reviews: I want to get it right.

[savvyman]

Yep, but only if there's an available upgrade, with tread left, and isn't going to eat all of the available cap space. Unfortunately for Seattle, there isn't going to BE any tackle upgrades wandering the streets, regardless of how much we need or want them, seems to be a major sticking point or a point of confusion for many, year after year after year.

Best we can hope for is a team up against the cap being dumb enough to release one ( fat chance) or trading up for a high draft pick ( unlikely to part with the bulk of our draft for a single rookie line prospect) or keep drafting them repeatedly, how our injured players come back fully healthy, and pray that one of them blows up the odds and excels far greater than expected, and learn a little patience allowing them to fully develop.

There really is no realistic alternatives, barring pipe dreams like trading for Thomas or something which is highly unlikely and doubtful at best.

Thanks for introducing reality to all of these comments EVERYWHERE about why hasn't the Seahawks spent more on the Offensive Line? I have never seen so many idiots questioning such wonderful expertise in my life. Every other 12th man is now bashing the front office for failing to spend more on the Offensive line. Excuse me - these average people\seahawk fans are going to second guess John & Pete's personnel decisions? They have done the best possible with the hand that they have been dealt with for six years now. As you keep reminding people - good offensive lineman do not make it to free agency. There seahawks drafted so well that they ended up with several ELITE players at their positions - especially at defense and they signed them all before they hit free agency where they would have been much more expensive. Then they had to pay Russell. Can all of these critics of John & Pete do one thing:

1. Tell us exactly where over the past four seasons what offensive lineman was available and where would the money (cap space) come from to pay for the Offensive lineman?

[savvyman]

RT, DL, OLB to play Irvin's role, RB, and CB are what I see as areas to address.
The OL should be a lot more consistent with a full off season and TC behind them, but I hope there isn't the wholesale change like this year or we will see more of the same.

RB is, to me an unknown as neither Rawls or Prosise has been able to stay healthy. This draft has a number of possible backs, so I expect an addition.

Yes Bruce Irvin - Something that I became more cognizant over the past few games is how much this team missed Irvin. But this is not a criticism of the Front Office - there was not the money available to pay him.

[Hawktawk]

I have never been so confident about a game. It was based on Atlantas problems stopping the run and our front 7 getting after Ryan. Instead it was a case of us unilaterally surrendering the run in a one score game and our overall inability to even slow the run or get pressure consistently . Russ was in a off at critical moments.I expected Atlanta to crack under the pressure and instead they gutted Seattle surgically. We let carrolls replacement get away. We will be paying a long time .pundits all over are beating their chest. Atlanta is described as the new Seattle. It felt like a changing of the guard where jerky jerky play through a game isn't going to be nearly enough.
All I got right was Hester

[RiverDog]

Thanks for introducing reality to all of these comments EVERYWHERE about why hasn't the Seahawks spent more on the Offensive Line? I have never seen so many idiots questioning such wonderful expertise in my life. Every other 12th man is now bashing the front office for failing to spend more on the Offensive line. Excuse me - these average people\seahawk fans are going to second guess John & Pete's personnel decisions? They have done the best possible with the hand that they have been dealt with for six years now. As you keep reminding people - good offensive lineman do not make it to free agency. There seahawks drafted so well that they ended up with several ELITE players at their positions - especially at defense and they signed them all before they hit free agency where they would have been much more expensive. Then they had to pay Russell. Can all of these critics of John & Pete do one thing:

1. Tell us exactly where over the past four seasons what offensive lineman was available and where would the money (cap space) come from to pay for the Offensive lineman?

This isn't about second guessing decisions made by Pete and John. They've done an incredible job, gave us one Lombardi and took us within a yard and a few seconds of another, and I'll be eternally grateful to both of them.

What this is about is a discussion about what we can do to improve this team, and the most glaring need is to upgrade the offensive line. When they decided that they needed to give Russell more weapons, they traded not once, but twice, the first time when they traded draft picks for Percy Harvin and the second time when they traded picks and a Pro Bowl center for Jimmy Graham. Additionally, other teams, including us, have traded up in the draft when a player we really like is within reach. It's a viable option that should be, and most likely is, on the table. Plus we are not in that bad of a cap space situation to where we couldn't afford a FA like Whitworth if we think he's the answer to our problems. We currently have $35M, slightly below the middle of the pack compared to other teams, with no major pieces that we have to re-sign this season.

I'm not necessarily advocating exercising any of those options. The point is that we shouldn't just throw our hands up in despair and say that there's no way we can ever improve our current situation and that like it or not, we're stuck with the players we have. To do so would be to ask us to accept mediocrity, which is what this team currently is. We're not going to get better by sitting still and hoping our problems will fix themselves.

[Hawk Sista]

Maybe this is precisely the place for such disagreement??? But continually bringing up things said in week 6 is getting old. I was interested in this thread only to scroll past 1/2 of it. Smart people can disagree and have a discussion about it that we can ALL engage in. As it is, 2 of you are having a public conversation. Let's leave the personal attacks and snark for trolls.

Signed, NotYourMamma

[Hawk Sista]

There will be off season changes. Some will surprise us and others will make us happy. I don't advocate for trading Sherm, but it is a fair question. We saw selfish Sherm this year. I think it was a response to him playing w/o Kam and Earl for big chunks of the season. Both of those absences made clear the importance of each of the LOB members to the other. Sherm'S absence would be felt by the others, too. Remember that.

The only way Sherm leaves is if he cannot find his way back to the TEAM and goes all Harvin. His Jim Moore melt down felt like he could be capable of that, though I hadn't seen much of that from him so I will assume the best.

I agree with the sentiment that we have a solid core. We need some tweaks @ obvious positions and improved depth + a HUGE hope for improved health.

[RiverDog]

Maybe this is precisely the place for such disagreement??? But continually bringing up things said in week 6 is getting old. I was interested in this thread only to scroll past 1/2 of it. Smart people can disagree and have a discussion about it that we can ALL engage in. As it is, 2 of you are having a public conversation. Let's leave the personal attacks and snark for trolls.

Signed, NotYourMamma

Understood, Sis, and I'm sorry for my part in this. I know that the others don't like to witness this stuff, but then again, I'm not the type to back down if I feel I'm being attacked. It's not like I'm constantly picking fights with other posters, so hopefully you can forgive me for my lack of restraint on this one occasion.

[Hawk Sista]

But of course, good sir. I'm certainly above any of it myself. It's a damned disappointing weekend.

[RiverDog]

But of course, good sir. I'm certainly above any of it myself. It's a damned disappointing weekend.

I guess I'm not as disappointed as others in here, not because I'm any less of a fan, but because I halfway expected it. I went to the Niners game two weeks ago, and it was apparent that something was missing when we let a team as dysfunctional as they are hang around. I was sick to my stomach after SB 49 because I felt we had the best team in the league and failed to take advantage of a golden opportunity, but these last two years, I didn't feel anywhere close to how I felt in the prior 3 seasons. It was like fool's gold. You see a great performance against a team like the Panthers and you think wow, we've turned the corner now, then we go out and lay a turd like we did in Green Bay. We're just not that good anymore.

So like the thread title so aptly points out, it's time to re-think this thing. I don't think we need to hit ctrl-alt-del, but we do need a shake up. I encourage Pete and John to be bold in their approach, and leave no stone unturned. Simply standing pat and hoping that the problems will fix themselves isn't going to cut it in a league where the watch word is parity.

[burrrton]

Atlanta is described as the new Seattle.

He's had an MVP season, but I'll need to see it more than 1 season, or at least more than 2-3x a decade- their defense still isn't championship caliber (we'll see if their offensive prowess can cover for it, and/or if they suddenly get hot against someone other than our schizophrenic unit).

I don't really know what we are right now, or whether we'll get "it" back next year, but ATL isn't close to what we've been the last 4-5 years.

[savvyman]

Signed, NotYourMamma

LOL.

Message boards without disagreement and conflict are pretty boring......

[savvyman]

There will be off season changes. Some will surprise us and others will make us happy. I don't advocate for trading Sherm, but it is a fair question. We saw selfish Sherm this year. I think it was a response to him playing w/o Kam and Earl for big chunks of the season. Both of those absences made clear the importance of each of the LOB members to the other. Sherm'S absence would be felt by the others, too. Remember that.

The only way Sherm leaves is if he cannot find his way back to the TEAM and goes all Harvin. His Jim Moore melt down felt like he could be capable of that, though I hadn't seen much of that from him so I will assume the best.

I agree with the sentiment that we have a solid core. We need some tweaks @ obvious positions and improved depth + a HUGE hope for improved health.

No we did not see the selfish Sherman - we saw the angry Sherman - Angry because he sees there are players on the roster who are not putting in the Championship preparation and effort and he is angry about it. Richard Sherman deserves nothing but love from the 12th man because he is a hell of a player who has NEVER taken a play off.

[savvyman]

People who point to the Trade for Jimmy Graham as an opportunity cost for funds that could have been used elsewhere like offensive line forget that in the Seahawks final two games that year - Green Bay and New England - we could literally not complete a pass for most of those final two games because the league had figured out how to stop our passing game. That trade for Jimmy Graham was a great trade both in foresight and in hindsight.

Now have we used Jimmy most effectively since the trade? No.

[c_hawkbob]

No we did not see the selfish Sherman - we saw the angry Sherman - Angry because he sees there are players on the roster who are not putting in the Championship preparation and effort and he is angry about it. Richard Sherman deserves nothing but love from the 12th man because he is a hell of a player who has NEVER taken a play off.

QFT

[obiken]

River improving this team is not going to be enough. Dallas, KC, Raiders, GB, etc etc are going to get way better. Baring injuries, Dallas and Oakland are the odds on faves next year, and nothing we do is going to stop that. Just one guys opinion. Oh I forgot Carolina, and TB.

[Anthony]

River improving this team is not going to be enough. Dallas, KC, Raiders, GB, etc etc are going to get way better. Baring injuries, Dallas and Oakland are the odds on faves next year, and nothing we do is going to stop that. Just one guys opinion. Oh I forgot Carolina, and TB.

well ai guess we should just give up. I mean if us getting better is not enough than why bother.

[obiken]

well ai guess we should just give up. I mean if us getting better is not enough than why bother.

I'm not saying that bubba, I'm just saying that were are going to have to get way better.
We were a Lombardi team when we won the SB; we ran the ball, and stopped the run. Now we can't do either, especially against the good teams. We lost an Pro bowl caliber Center and Left Tackle, and a boat load on defense. We are not the same team anymore. We got killed in GB, yesterday was just a formality.

[mykc14]

River improving this team is not going to be enough. Dallas, KC, Raiders, GB, etc etc are going to get way better. Baring injuries, Dallas and Oakland are the odds on faves next year, and nothing we do is going to stop that. Just one guys opinion. Oh I forgot Carolina, and TB.

OBI, you can't worry about what other teams are doing because everything is in flux. You are a fan of one of the only consistently good teams over the past 5 years. 5 straight years in the divisional round or better just doesn't happen in today's NFL. I have discussed this before but I have to ask: why worry about any AFC team? The only meaningful game against them would be the Super Bowl and if we are in that game than we obviously are a good team. As far as the other NFC teams their are always going to be other good teams to worry about but you have to look past this year. Dallas had a good year but they are in salary cap hell next year and have key guys they need to resign. GB is clearly playing well and has some cap space next offseason (the same as us) but have to resign 7 starters. Carolina? Tampa Bay? They might be good next year but they are just as likely to be bad and I don't see either being as good as us. The falcons are playing really well and have a lot of cap space and have a lot of their guys signed next year. They are going to be good for awhile but haven't been consistently good like we have.

[Hawktawk]

If we are heathy it's another ballgame. We were anything but this season .

[NorthHawk]

This draft is said to be deep on Defense and an Edge rusher might be an early pick for us as we know Pete loves pressuring the QB and places a high priority on it. There might be a couple of players at 26 who can fill the role that Irvin played like Tim Williams from Alabama. Some comments suggest he's the best pure Edge rusher in the draft and one said he's a more polished Bruce Irvin which is ironic considering we need to fill that hole. He has some baggage so he might fall to us if we are interested.

CB is also deep so maybe a Corner who can play well in our system.

[obiken]

OBI, you can't worry about what other teams are doing because everything is in flux. You are a fan of one of the only consistently good teams over the past 5 years. 5 straight years in the divisional round or better just doesn't happen in today's NFL. I have discussed this before but I have to ask: why worry about any AFC team? The only meaningful game against them would be the Super Bowl and if we are in that game than we obviously are a good team. As far as the other NFC teams their are always going to be other good teams to worry about but you have to look past this year. Dallas had a good year but they are in salary cap hell next year and have key guys they need to resign. GB is clearly playing well and has some cap space next offseason (the same as us) but have to resign 7 starters. Carolina? Tampa Bay? They might be good next year but they are just as likely to be bad and I don't see either being as good as us. The falcons are playing really well and have a lot of cap space and have a lot of their guys signed next year. They are going to be good for awhile but haven't been consistently good like we have.

Great points NY really great points.

[Zorn76]

It's been a long season.

My operative word has been glimpse (or glimpses), because (IMO) it aptly describes what we saw all season long, including the playoffs.

Some good games, some good halves (usually the 2nd), and a few spectacular plays that ultimately served as only a tease to 12's. All things considered, it was a good season. But once we saw how things were going offensively, particularly the OL, while also witnessing some very uncharacteristic lapses defensively (on full display in Atlanta as well), bowing out in the divisional round again sounds about right for this group. We were not good on the road all year, and being a road team in the 2nd rd of the playoffs is always going to be difficult.

Keep in mind, too, that we also saw today the two Home teams losing. Dallas (Thank God) won't be advancing & are joined by a very disappointed bunch in KC (local radio here has now branded Reid as Schottenheimer 2.0:)

And could you imagine this forum if we had hosted the CCG and lost to GB? lol, ah, man, Yoder and Mak would have to call in reserves to put the fires out in here. Kidding. Still, we woulda all loved to have hosted it. So in that regard, a road loss certainly makes more sense than letting down a home crowd like the 'boys and Chiefs did. Their opponents were tough, but you gotta take care of business in your house.

As for this off season...prior experience has me cautiously optimistic at best that we may Finally break through with some better (OL) picks/FA prospects. It's just...boggles me how things have worked out up front over the last 5 yrs. Odds alone should've dictated better at this point. I do like Britt, Glow, and Infedi as decent candidates to hold their positions, but the cattle call has got to happen yet again. Also, can we Please stop spending anytime on (raw) projects when it comes to offensive lineman. No more converting DL, no more working with people who have never played LT at any level (or so little it's negligible), no more of one year starters in the NCAA for that position. The scouting is long overdue to improve there.

Bottom line: The window is still open for us. IMO, we '17 and '18 to win another SB with this core group. Beyond that, I think it gets dicey...unless we draft Really well:)

[obiken]

What you say may be true HS, but when is PC going to get the drill, you cannot use Basketball players with 0 experience on our OL. Our performance has slipped, and it has slipped every year since we won the SB. You have to find the hole in the boat to fix it. We are not sinking but we are not speeding either. You cannot take a bunch of projects and coach them up and hope they come together. 5 guys??!!
Now I agree you can you save money doing it with some but not all of them. Injuries hurt us, but everyone has injuries. Its a lot a luck winning the SB. If You have a bunch skinny little guys like Richy and Lockett, you are going to take hits, nature of the beast. We need more depth. Look at the 2013 team and it was the depth that was killer. Not getting key people injured is the name of the game. Brady goes down they are done in NE. Look at the Raiders snap, and its over.
I am sick Sherm and Bennett's victimization, its is getting a little old. Makes great interviews for ESPN, but they have to start getting on the same page. You have to run the ball, and stop the run, we have stopped doing either.
I think they will plug the holes folks, but like HS says we may say bye bye to some fan favorites.

[NorthHawk]

A good OL is usually built from the inside out.
I believe that the C/G positions are in relatively good shape and should be better with a full year under their belt.
Fant, with a year of experience should be better than any draft pick we could get because the NFL isn't as much of a new experience and he can now just learn the areas he has to improve.
He has the athleticism that a LT needs, but it was and still is a big learning curve that any rookie would have but he looks like he has a lot of upside. The only LTs in FA are pretty expensive which would mean they might have to sacrifice Britt if it came down to it. Moving up in the draft would mean sacrificing the future. We don't have a 4th or 5th outside of comp picks this year, so it would mean a 1st or 2nd or maybe multiples of that for an unknown. How many high LT draft picks have panned out the last few years? Not as many as it requires to be confident that a trade would be worth it.

I think the RT is the key for success up front. We need a big road grader, and there should be some in either the draft or FA as they aren't as coveted, but a guy like Breno really set the tone in our Lombardi year. We need to get that identity back where we could grind out a win. We also need a bigger RB that can take the punishment. I'm not convinced Rawls can be the answer for a full year with the way he runs and Prosise looks suspect for health, too.
It all works together with OL/RB production. The OL needs to know how to block for the RBs, and the RBs need to know how to read the blocks the OL are making.

[Socalhawk]

Hi fellow fans! I'm new to this board but not to my love for the Hawks and Dawgs. It hasn't been easy to follow either where I live but it hasn't dimmed my enthusiasm.

Looking at this team it's clear their first priority should be Oline and the secondary. IMO the best OT in this draft isn't even listed as an OT by most services. He's come from a small program but has outstanding athleticism and skills. He's played very well against top tier competition. Forrest Lamp would be my choice at #26. Trust me this kid could end up being the best OT in this draft. My friends laughed at me when a few years ago I touted Terron Armstead as the best OT in that draft. He turned out to be just that kind of player. IMO Lamp is better than Armstead and can start as a rookie.

Or they can grab Budda Baker or Sidney Jones for the secondary which is a bit thin.

Bottom line is I don't see any reason they can't fill a lot of holes this year with a very focused draft and free agent signings. All teams need to reload at times as they lose guys via age and free agent attrition. This past season highlighted some of the areas they need to improve this off season. I have every faith that Carroll & the SeaHawk front office can and will get it done. This team has a outstanding core of players. They need to improve the oline and build some quality depth with rotational players who can keep the starters fresh and eventually become the starters.

[c_hawkbob]

Welcome aboard Socal! I know you're not the same person but that's a name we've been missing in this forum since the PI days, just feels right having a Socal posting again.

[Hawktawk]

I had the same thought Bob.
Welcome aboard socal!!!!

[NorthHawk]

Keep posting, Socalhawk. Good first post.

Forrest Lamp looks like he's accomplished quite a lot at a smaller school.

2016 Preseason All-C-USA
2016 Outland Trophy Watch List
2016 Wuerffel Trophy Watch List
2016 Preseason All-C-USA First Team (Athlon)
2015 Team Captain
2015 Second Team All American (Pro Football Focus)
2015 First Team All-Conference USA
2015 First Team All-Conference USA (Phil Steele)
2015 Rotary Lombardi Award Watch List
2014 Third Team All-Conference USA (Phil Steele)
2014 Honorable Mention All-Conference USA
2013 Honorable Mention All-Sun Belt Conference

[Hawk Sista]

Hey hey, SoCal. I'm a central Cali girl myself and understand it ain't easy being a Hawks fan in CA. But, the Internet, sites like this, being able to follow the Times and Seattle radio bring us in to the fold. Welcome, here!!

"No we did not see the selfish Sherman - we saw the angry Sherman - Angry because he sees there are players on the roster who are not putting in the Championship preparation and effort and he is angry about it. Richard Sherman deserves nothing but love from the 12th man because he is a hell of a player who has NEVER taken a play off."

You make some good points. He's been a warrior. As I've said - I love Richard and understand (as much as I can from here) his frustration. Now we hear that he's been quietly playing his ass off w/ an MCL injury. His comments, however, have felt more mean spirited of late. Threatening Jim for doing his job a week or so after yelling at the coaching staff in public only to go full Cam Newton in the ensuing presser has been a significant distraction.

I am not advocating a Sherman trade AT ALL!! The opposite is more true. But it is a fair question. Sherm and others on the team want a better o-line. That comes at a cost.

[RiverDog]

Hi, Socal! Welcome to the Jungle!

[Hawktawk]

PCs comments today indicate he isn't planning on a major shakeup of the line.
Of course the draft and FA might change his mind but for now it looks like he has confidence in the group to improve this offseason.

[Hawkstar]

PCs comments today indicate he isn't planning on a major shakeup of the line.
Of course the draft and FA might change his mind but for now it looks like he has confidence in the group to improve this offseason.

I was disappointed to hear his comments on Bevell. He indicated those calling for him to be dismissed didn't know what they were talking about and he didn't plan any changes to the coaching staff unless someone leaves for another job. I guess the good news - PC is hearing from some source that there is some faction of the fan base that would love to see Bevell move on.

I'm firmly in the camp that would love to see Mr Bevell move on.

[Oly]

Welcome aboard, Socal!

[obiken]

After all this I think you still need a solid LT that you can depend on. The rest you can play around with. Fant IS NOT a legit starting LT and never has been.

[NorthHawk]

He's not yet a starting LT.
At this point he has as much potential as a high 1st round pick. Maybe more as we know he has the athleticism and is coachable enough to play at the NFL level. With draft picks, you never really know until they get into action.
I doubt he will ever be as good as Okung, but if he's a steady LT, it will do a lot for this OL. If they find someone in the draft, then it's great for competition, but I think it would be wrong to change him for change sake.
Also keep in mind both he and Glowinski were essentially rookies. With both on big learning curves, the mistakes are often magnified. If the LG was a seasoned veteran, it might have made his job easier.

[obiken]

He's not yet a starting LT.
At this point he has as much potential as a high 1st round pick. Maybe more as we know he has the athleticism and is coachable enough to play at the NFL level. With draft picks, you never really know until they get into action.
I doubt he will ever be as good as Okung, but if he's a steady LT, it will do a lot for this OL. If they find someone in the draft, then it's great for competition, but I think it would be wrong to change him for change sake.
Also keep in mind both he and Glowinski were essentially rookies. With both on big learning curves, the mistakes are often magnified. If the LG was a seasoned veteran, it might have made his job easier.

Do you really make it to the Super Bowl with these guys on the line NH?? Really?? Sorry we need a real lineman to build these guys around and for depth.

[NorthHawk]

The problem is we would have to start from scratch if we made wholesale changes. That would be another lost year.
The interior of the OL should be pretty good for the next couple of years (if they re-sign Britt).
Left Tackles have to have length, speed, footwork, and power. Fant has all of these characteristics plus he has a year under his belt so the game should slow down a little next year.
Glowinski is in the same boat. His first full year is invaluable and now those two can start to work together as they grow into being part of a functional unit.
We saw the start of it this past year, but with the inconsistencies that come from rookies all along the line, we had a lot of trouble.
However, there were times when they looked pretty good. Those times are what we can look forward to more and more.
Sure, draft a LT if one is available and falls to 26 or 58. Sign a FA for RT for competition or upgrade, but don't give up on players that show some real promise.

I'm just as disappointed as you that they let the OL slide into disaster territory during a championship window, but they've hit bottom and are now on their way up.
Don't pull the plug on them now.

[RiverDog]

The problem is we would have to start from scratch if we made wholesale changes. That would be another lost year.
The interior of the OL should be pretty good for the next couple of years (if they re-sign Britt).
Left Tackles have to have length, speed, footwork, and power. Fant has all of these characteristics plus he has a year under his belt so the game should slow down a little next year.
Glowinski is in the same boat. His first full year is invaluable and now those two can start to work together as they grow into being part of a functional unit.
We saw the start of it this past year, but with the inconsistencies that come from rookies all along the line, we had a lot of trouble.
However, there were times when they looked pretty good. Those times are what we can look forward to more and more.
Sure, draft a LT if one is available and falls to 26 or 58. Sign a FA for RT for competition or upgrade, but don't give up on players that show some real promise.

I'm just as disappointed as you that they let the OL slide into disaster territory during a championship window, but they've hit bottom and are now on their way up.
Don't pull the plug on them now.

The problem isn't as much Fant as is it is the combined performance of both OT's. Gilliam his horrible, and he doesn't have a rookie season to blame. He'll be heading into his 4th season with us next year, 3rd as a starter, and hasn't shown a lot of promise.

I would like to see them bring in at least one solid veteran player, and it doesn't have to be a tackle, either. They drafted Ifedi to play tackle, his college position, so why not pick up a veteran FA guard and move Ifedi outside to OT? Guards aren't as expensive as tackles, and there's a number of them on the market that appear like they'd fit the bill.

In any event, I just don't like sitting still and doing nothing and expecting everything to heal thyself.