LOL Robert Kraft

[Uppercut]

Must be recruiting

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26055197/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-solicitation-prostitution

[c_hawkbob]

You'd think a guy with his money could make more discrete arrangements ...

[RiverDog]

First Jerry Jones, then Jerry Richardson, and now Bob Kraft. Talk about a pack of dirty old men. It sort of puts a damper on the league's attempt to be more female/family friendly.

I wonder how this squares with the league's personal conduct policy?

[Uppercut]

Now it says a bigger name is involved!

[RiverDog]

Social media is going nuts with this topic: "Viagra-gate is the most appropriate name as Kraft is always seeking ways for his paid associates to get a better grip on his..."

[idhawkman]

I bet they don't swarm his house with swat teams and tactical gear an hour before dawn. Says they sent his attorney a letter about an arrest warrant.

Without getting too political, I posted on this in the off topic area since this was a result of a human trafficking investigation that Kraft got caught up in.

[RiverDog]

I bet they don't swarm his house with swat teams and tactical gear an hour before dawn. Says they sent his attorney a letter about an arrest warrant.

Without getting too political, I posted on this in the off topic area since this was a result of a human trafficking investigation that Kraft got caught up in.

Kraft was charged with misdemeanor solicitation of prostitution, so let's not get carried away and start comparing his pending arrest to that of Roger Stone's arrest on criminal charges. And at this point, nothing has been said about Kraft having knowledge that that the business he supposedly patronized was a front for human trafficking.

As you noted, your agenda is more appropriate for the OT forum than it is in here.

[Aseahawkfan]

I won the Super Bowl, not I want to get laid. Prostitution should be legal any way. Dumb that it is still illegal.

[RiverDog]

Kraft is finished as an owner in the NFL. It's a first time misdemeanor solicitation charge, meaning that even if he's found guilty, he'll just have to pay a fine and do some community service, so the legal part is trivial. But the NFL's personal conduct policy specifically states that it is not good enough to simply to be found not guilty of a crime, that they have to uphold themselves to a higher bar. Even if he settles out of court or if they drop the charges, Kraft's reputation has been irreparably damaged.

I've heard some say that the Patriots should be penalized with the forfeiture of draft choices, which is preposterous. This is clearly a personal conduct issue not related to the team so they should not be going after innocent parties. But Kraft will undoubtedly have to sell the team. Heck, they just got through enduring the Jerry Richardson scandal which resulted in his selling of his team, and that scandal was lame compared to what Kraft is being accused of.

This will shake the NFL to its core. Robert Kraft is well liked amongst his peers and a personal friend of the commissioner's. He is one of the most visible owners in the league, and certainly the most successful. The whole NFL community grieved when his wife passed away. Now his reputation is trash, a dirty old man that pays a couple hundred bucks to get rolled by young, perhaps teenaged women, and is the butt of jokes in bars, clubs, and spread across the world on the internet.

It's truly a sad saga to see a fall from grace like this, especially a man of his age in the sunset of his life.

[idhawkman]

Kraft is finished as an owner in the NFL. It's a first time misdemeanor solicitation charge, meaning that even if he's found guilty, he'll just have to pay a fine and do some community service, so the legal part is trivial. But the NFL's personal conduct policy specifically states that it is not good enough to simply to be found not guilty of a crime, that they have to uphold themselves to a higher bar. Even if he settles out of court or if they drop the charges, Kraft's reputation has been irreparably damaged.

I've heard some say that the Patriots should be penalized with the forfeiture of draft choices, which is preposterous. This is clearly a personal conduct issue not related to the team so they should not be going after innocent parties. But Kraft will undoubtedly have to sell the team. Heck, they just got through enduring the Jerry Richardson scandal which resulted in his selling of his team, and that scandal was lame compared to what Kraft is being accused of.

This will shake the NFL to its core. Robert Kraft is well liked amongst his peers and a personal friend of the commissioner's. He is one of the most visible owners in the league, and certainly the most successful. The whole NFL community grieved when his wife passed away. Now his reputation is trash, a dirty old man that pays a couple hundred bucks to get rolled by young, perhaps teenaged women, and is the butt of jokes in bars, clubs, and spread across the world on the internet.

It's truly a sad saga to see a fall from grace like this, especially a man of his age in the sunset of his life.

Before we fry him in public court like a couple of recent news stories have in Washington DC and Chicago, maybe we should wait to see if it is actually him. I'm not excusing him, I'm just saying, let's be sure it is him (not a close match look alike) that is on tape.

[RiverDog]

Before we fry him in public court like a couple of recent news stories have in Washington DC and Chicago, maybe we should wait to see if it is actually him. I'm not excusing him, I'm just saying, let's be sure it is him (not a close match look alike) that is on tape.

The two cases you are referring to are in no way comparable to this incident. The police weren't involved at all in your DC example and the one in Chicago was fishy from the get go and lacked statements of certainty from LE as those that we've seen in this case.

Additionally, we can assume that these weren't sketchy, amateurish outdoor security cameras that one might see at a private residence or a parking lot. These were cameras set up by the police in a sting operation in small, indoor rooms and were strategically placed by video experts for the purpose of identifying suspects. Especially since Kraft was reportedly recorded on two separate occasions, the likelihood that he is a victim of mistaken identity on both those occasions is pretty low.

So yea, I get waiting for all the facts, especially if a trial outcome is relevant, which according to the NFL's personal conduct policy, a simple innocent verdict does not necessarily let Kraft off the hook. Given what we already know, I feel pretty comfortable going out on a very thick limb in making my assumptions.

FYI, here's the afdidavid of probable cause filed by the Jupiter, FL police that lays out the evidence:

https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/74/ ... hua-pc.pdf

[NorthHawk]

I agree with idhawkman on this. It does look damning, though but money has a way of making things that
seem legally problematic to just disappear. He's going to have the best lawyers, too so we'll have to wait
to see how it all unfolds.

[RiverDog]

I agree with idhawkman on this. It does look damning, though but money has a way of making things that
seem legally problematic to just disappear. He's going to have the best lawyers, too so we'll have to wait
to see how it all unfolds.

I heard a legal analyst yesterday expressing his opinion that Kraft's case will never see the light of day inside a courtroom. His rationale was this is a misdeameanor charge that, considering this is Kraft's first offense, he likely wouldn't end up with jail time anyway. All the prosecution wants to do with the patrons they've charged is make it public and very visible in order to scare away other potential johns from soliciting prostitution and providing a demand for this type of activity. On Kraft's side of the courtroom, he likely would want to avoid having to testify on his own behalf, have young, female witnesses testify against him, have the videos made public, etc.

The analyst I saw thought that they'll either settle out of court or the prosecution drops the charges. Neither of those options is going to help Kraft. The only way he can restore his reputation is if he challenges this in court as a case of mistaken idenity and wins, and based on the evidence in the probable cause affidavit, that seems extremely unlikely.

I'm generally an advocate for letting things play out before passing judgment, but based on what we already know, I just don't see a positive outcome for Kraft. He'll be lucky to hold onto his franchise.

[NorthHawk]

He may have some short term problems, but I think he'll ride it out and then we'll mostly forget about it.
It's the scandal of the day and we are like a dog so when someone says SQUIRREL we all run off in another direction and forget about what we were doing before.

[RiverDog]

He may have some short term problems, but I think he'll ride it out and then we'll mostly forget about it.
It's the scandal of the day and we are like a dog so when someone says SQUIRREL we all run off in another direction and forget about what we were doing before.

Boy, I dunno, my friend. In this day and age of the #Metoo movement, the league's unwielding stance on women's issues, domestic violence, and overall Holier Than Thou image that Kraft himself helped shape?

And we may have seen just the tip of the iceberg. Although Kraft himself was probably not directly involved in human trafficking or money laundering, the sting was huge and far reaching. Kraft could find himself swept up in a tsunami of corruption by his alleged patronization of this business:

The investigation involved several law enforcement agencies and resulted in raids and arrests connected to nearly a dozen businesses in the region. At least one person was charged with human trafficking; others, including several women, are accused of racketeering and money laundering. More than two dozen customers, men ranging in age from their 30s to at least one in his 80s, have been arrested; hundreds have been charged, the police said.

A Florida Department of Health investigator inspected the business on behalf of the police and noticed several indications that women were living there, including beds, dressers with personal items and a refrigerator containing food and condiments.

Mr. Bompartito, who moved to South Florida from Philadelphia seven months ago, said that around the time of the purported bomb scare (the pretense used by the police to plant the cameras), he saw young women leave the massage parlor around lunchtime every day and walk around the mall, without talking to anyone or eating anything. He had worked next door to a day spa in Philadelphia that had been raided by the police and sensed something was wrong here, too.

“They looked malnourished,” he said of the women from Orchids of Asia. “One I even offered a slice of pizza to. She wouldn’t even say hi, wouldn’t even say thank you. Just kept her head down.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/spor ... arrest.htm

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm already at the point where I don't care. Unless they find out he was buying an under-aged prostitute sex slave, then I'm about as far into the not caring department as you can go. I don't see this being all that bad for Kraft if he can handle the public image damage control. As far as losing his franchise, do you really think Goodel will do that? I'm skeptical. Jerry Jones has done some dumb things and he's been untouchable. Kraft is in that category.

[RiverDog]

I'm already at the point where I don't care. Unless they find out he was buying an under-aged prostitute sex slave, then I'm about as far into the not caring department as you can go. I don't see this being all that bad for Kraft if he can handle the public image damage control. As far as losing his franchise, do you really think Goodel will do that? I'm skeptical. Jerry Jones has done some dumb things and he's been untouchable. Kraft is in that category.

In the larger scheme of things, I agree, it's a trivial charge. So what, an old man pays to get rolled by some hookers. I can think of much more serious crimes.

Goodell isn't the one that would force Kraft out. Goodell works for the owners, and it would be pressure from them, or pressure from outside the NFL, that could cause Kraft to sell. Personally, I don't think that they would force Kraft to resign, but IMO there's a real possibility that there is enough bad publicity that he decides it would be better for him, the team, and the league to bow out.

But at the very least, the league is going to have to suspend him for a significant amount of time and issue a multi million dollar fine due by virtue of their Personal Conduct Policy as this is about as clear of a violation that exists.

[NorthHawk]

You might end up being right, RD.
There are many twists and turns to go before it's over, but the power of money has a lot of sway.
On the other hand, the NFL seemed to have a hand in Richardson selling, but I think I remember
there were rumblings of him considering selling before it hit the fan.
And like you said, in today's climate there may be more emphasis on removing what might be a
big stain on the NFL.

[Aseahawkfan]

In the larger scheme of things, I agree, it's a trivial charge. So what, an old man pays to get rolled by some hookers. I can think of much more serious crimes.

Goodell isn't the one that would force Kraft out. Goodell works for the owners, and it would be pressure from them, or pressure from outside the NFL, that could cause Kraft to sell. Personally, I don't think that they would force Kraft to resign, but IMO there's a real possibility that there is enough bad publicity that he decides it would be better for him, the team, and the league to bow out.

But at the very least, the league is going to have to suspend him for a significant amount of time and issue a multi million dollar fine due by virtue of their Personal Conduct Policy as this is about as clear of a violation that exists.

I think he will get some kind of suspension at worst. I don't see that many people being all that outraged.

[HawkDawg]

Social media is going nuts with this topic: "Viagra-gate is the most appropriate name as Kraft is always seeking ways for his paid associates to get a better grip on his..."

On his deflated balls? Sorry, had to go there!

[RiverDog]

I think he will get some kind of suspension at worst. I don't see that many people being all that outraged.

A couple things: This story has a lot of room to run. It's the offseason, we're a good 2 months from the draft, and it's at a time of year where all the other major sports are sort of in neutral: College BB's March Madness is a month away, the start of the baseball season still 6 weeks away, the NBA and NHL are months away from their playoffs. It can stay newsworthy for a long time.

And secondly, the investigation isn't done yet. There were several other prominent businessmen that were or will be arrested, the details behind the spa are very sorrid, including things like women living at the spa and not being allowed to leave, money laundering, etc. It happened in a very upscale area, well landscaped, near a gated community, etc. Given the types of clients this spa served and the areas they operated out of, it has the potential of being a much larger story.

Edit: Here's more on what I addressed above: Johnny DelPrete, the longtime boyfriend of LPGA star Jessica Korda, was arrested in Stuart, Florida, as part of a human trafficking investigation involving several spas...DelPrete, 29, was arrested at 3:23 a.m. Friday on a charge of soliciting prostitution,..The criminal probe spanned from Orlando through the Treasure Coast to Palm Beach County with dozens arrested. Jupiter police charged New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft with two counts of soliciting prostitution Friday....In Martin County, 35 clients were charged with soliciting prostitution, according to TCPalm. Chief Assistant State Attorney Tom Bakkedahl said it's unclear how many victims of human trafficking will be identified.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/j ... spartanntp

It depends on how much being an NFL owner means to Kraft and how much shame and remorse he feels over this incident. He hasn't spoken publically about it yet, allowing his lawyers to speak for him. Indeed, they're still denying that he did anything wrong.

[Hawktawk]

Richardson had to sell the panthers but that involved harassment of his staff. The better example would be Bob Irsay who was caught driving with a pocketful of pain meds in his system and more in his possession. he paid a big fine and was suspended from team operations for 6 games but I think he was in somewhat of a GM capacity. Kraft will not lose the team. I mean WTH they are the most hated dynasty of all time with the possible exception of the NY Yankees. So many scandals.. It's just making for funny memes on FB.

[RiverDog]

Richardson had to sell the panthers but that involved harassment of his staff. The better example would be Bob Irsay who was caught driving with a pocketful of pain meds in his system and more in his possession. he paid a big fine and was suspended from team operations for 6 games but I think he was in somewhat of a GM capacity. Kraft will not lose the team. I mean WTH they are the most hated dynasty of all time with the possible exception of the NY Yankees. So many scandals.. It's just making for funny memes on FB.

You're thinking Bob Irsay's son Jim Irsay, and he was/is the owner of the Indy Colts, and yes, he was charged with DUI along with possession of illegal drugs and was subsequently fined and suspended by the league. Unless Kraft is completely exonerated and can prove that he didn't go anywhere near the spa they say he frequented, he's going to be in direct violation of the personal conduct policy and will receive at least what Irsay got.

When you consider some of the sordid details that have been coming out of this story, it's far from a victimless crime.

[RiverDog]

More on the scandal, although this one is more gossipy than factual:

New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft mingled with a group of “hot” Asian women on the beach outside his swanky Florida condo in the days before Super Bowl LII, says a source who witnessed the gathering.

The frisky frolickers milled about with the 77-year-old billionaire on the sand as a young male worker carted out a collection of sporting goods for them: boogie boards, paddle boards and an umbrella for shade, the source said.

The hotties were “hanging around outside the house,” and Kraft was walking around with them, the source said.
Kraft then ducked inside his double unit, which is next to the famed Breakers resort in Palm Beach..It was unknown if the sun lovers had anything to do with the Orchids of Asia Day Spa, a massage parlor in nearby Jupiter where Kraft allegedly was caught on tape paying for sex acts.

Police say they secretly recorded johns at the joint from Jan. 18 to Jan. 22 — about the time the source saw Kraft on the beach — as part of a probe into human trafficking and prostitution at massage parlors.

Staff at the ritzy compound confirmed that curvy companions were Kraft’s preferred company. “I see him on occasion, usually surrounded by girls, living the life of the billionaire,” said a Breakers pool boy.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/24/robert-kr ... uper-bowl/

[obiken]

You'd think a guy with his money could make more discrete arrangements ...

THATS WHAT i SAID!! Get Gronk or Tommy to find a high priced call girl not some cheap hooker!!

[RiverDog]

You'd think a guy with his money could make more discrete arrangements ...

THATS WHAT i SAID!! Get Gronk or Tommy to find a high priced call girl not some cheap hooker!!

Obi;

I realize that you didn't mean it, but if you'll read some of the background on the story, the women weren't "hookers" as one would commonly think of the term. From the accounts I've read, they were virtual slaves that were coerced into this business by false promises of legitimate jobs. That's what makes this story so sordid and despicable and why I feel that Kraft's reputation is damaged beyond repair.

[NorthHawk]

I heard a comment on the radio that said he expects Kraft to give his team to his son and then fade into the background.
It gets the NFL off the hook, but he can still enjoy his team.

[RiverDog]

I heard a comment on the radio that said he expects Kraft to give his team to his son and then fade into the background.
It gets the NFL off the hook, but he can still enjoy his team.

It sure sounds like a viable proposition from Kraft's point of view. Jonathan Kraft is currently the team president so it would be a pretty seamless transition and he might have been considering moving into the background anyway. It would still have to go through league approval, but that shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure the NFL is anxious to wash their hands of this incident.

[obiken]

Obi;

I realize that you didn't mean it, but if you'll read some of the background on the story, the women weren't "hookers" as one would commonly think of the term. From the accounts I've read, they were virtual slaves that were coerced into this business by false promises of legitimate jobs. That's what makes this story so sordid and despicable and why I feel that Kraft's reputation is damaged beyond repair.

No I wasn't, and thanks. Minimally, If that is true, he is going to have to give up the team to his son and never be in the sky box again.

[RiverDog]

No I wasn't, and thanks. Minimally, If that is true, he is going to have to give up the team to his son and never be in the sky box again.

They've got him nailed pretty good as they have the license number of the limo that twice dropped him off and video evidence that is good enough quality to determine the face value of the bill ($100) he used to pay with. But we still haven't heard any statement or admission from Kraft himself, just his attorney saying that they deny the charge.

[Aseahawkfan]

I realize that you didn't mean it, but if you'll read some of the background on the story, the women weren't "hookers" as one would commonly think of the term. From the accounts I've read, they were virtual slaves that were coerced into this business by false promises of legitimate jobs. That's what makes this story so sordid and despicable and why I feel that Kraft's reputation is damaged beyond repair.

If that is true, then he might be done. If Kraft is involved in a sex slavery ring, that would be grounds for ejection.

[RiverDog]

I realize that you didn't mean it, but if you'll read some of the background on the story, the women weren't "hookers" as one would commonly think of the term. From the accounts I've read, they were virtual slaves that were coerced into this business by false promises of legitimate jobs. That's what makes this story so sordid and despicable and why I feel that Kraft's reputation is damaged beyond repair.

If that is true, then he might be done. If Kraft is involved in a sex slavery ring, that would be grounds for ejection.

I don't think the league could ever legally force Kraft to sell his team. He's charged only with misdemeanor solicitation, and there is no evidence that he knew, nor would a person reasonably suspect, that the prostitutes were virtual sex slaves.

What I think might happen is what North Hawk said, that Kraft will step aside and let his son take over ownership of the team. It seems like that might have been the eventual plan anyway as he is the team president.

But one thing is for sure: This is a much bigger story than it seemed when it first broke.

[obiken]

You have to remember the relationship between Kraft and the Commish. They hate each other! I think he will voluntarily step down and just give it to the son.

[idhawkman]

The two cases you are referring to are in no way comparable to this incident. The police weren't involved at all in your DC example and the one in Chicago was fishy from the get go and lacked statements of certainty from LE as those that we've seen in this case.

My example was how the press jumped on the story without all the info. But hey, twist it to fit your narrative how ever you want. Its what you do.

Additionally, we can assume that these weren't sketchy, amateurish outdoor security cameras that one might see at a private residence or a parking lot. These were cameras set up by the police in a sting operation in small, indoor rooms and were strategically placed by video experts for the purpose of identifying suspects. Especially since Kraft was reportedly recorded on two separate occasions, the likelihood that he is a victim of mistaken identity on both those occasions is pretty low.

My business is selling high quality cameras and you are assuming too much. First, the cameras are hidden by under cover officers in the rooms so they are not high quality. Second, the lighting is going to be dim in those rooms which is probably going to be Infra Red (IR) so the videos will be in black and white. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions Riv, else you risk the same exposure as the media in the two examples I provided. We just need to let this simmer and play out. I despise the NE Patriots but in no way am I going to jump on this bandwagon with the allegations as they are. I do reserve the right to change this opinion upon further information but missing that additional information, it is just too quick to pass judgement that it is actually him.

So yea, I get waiting for all the facts, especially if a trial outcome is relevant, which according to the NFL's personal conduct policy, a simple innocent verdict does not necessarily let Kraft off the hook. Given what we already know, I feel pretty comfortable going out on a very thick limb in making my assumptions.

What exactly do you know? Have you seen the video of him? Are you taking other's opinion that it is actually him on the video?

[RiverDog]

My example was how the press jumped on the story without all the info. But hey, twist it to fit your narrative how ever you want. Its what you do.

Twist it to fit my narrative is what I do? Why are you picking a fight with me over this? It's a simple disagreement. No need to take things personal.

In the Chicago case, the press per se didn't "jump all over this". The accuser was a high profile individual that was making a claim of an outrageous crime, and they had an obligation to cover the story and tell what was known about it. All the networks I saw, and I intentionally get info from multiple sources, reporting on the story were very careful to say "allegedly" or "supposedly". Where they went off the rails was the individual talking heads, commentary, etc, along with those that had specific agendas that this accusation fit with. But in Kraft's case, the people making the accusations are the police. Big difference.

My business is selling high quality cameras and you are assuming too much. First, the cameras are hidden by under cover officers in the rooms so they are not high quality. Second, the lighting is going to be dim in those rooms which is probably going to be Infra Red (IR) so the videos will be in black and white. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions Riv, else you risk the same exposure as the media in the two examples I provided. We just need to let this simmer and play out. I despise the NE Patriots but in no way am I going to jump on this bandwagon with the allegations as they are. I do reserve the right to change this opinion upon further information but missing that additional information, it is just too quick to pass judgement that it is actually him.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but have you read all the information I've posted in this thread? The videos were of good enough quality to see the denomination of paper currency. I'll yield to your expertize if you say otherwise, but that seems to me to be good enough quality to identify a person within a pretty good degree of certainty. If you hold up a $100 bill and a $20 from 100 feet, I'd be challenged to tell the difference, but I could dang sure pick out a face in a lineup from 100'. Additionally, they recorded Kraft getting out of a car in broad daylight (1059 according to police reports) and in the lobby, where the lighting was obviously much better than those taken in the rooms. Multiple cameras, multiple angles.

What exactly do you know? Have you seen the video of him? Are you taking other's opinion that it is actually him on the video?

Of course, I haven't seen the video. But I've read a lot of the evidence. Again, if you haven't done so, please go back in the thread and read the police reports and affidavit I've posted. They're very detailed.

If you want to hold off before passing judgment, that's fine, and yea, it's possible that it's a case of mistaken identity. Maybe Kraft was set-up for some unknown reason and, ala a certain somebody, it's all part of some vast right wing conspiracy to frame him. But I haven't heard anyone, including Kraft, give a reasonable explanation for the evidence that's been gathered to this point. Kraft hasn't given us an alibi or even a denial outside of some of his lawyers making a general statement on his behalf that seems designed more to deter further questions than it does to proclaim his innocence. If I were falsely accused of something, especially something like this, I'd be livid, and I'd be yelling and screaming my innocence. Wouldn't you?

[RiverDog]

I would have copied and pasted the police report, but it's a little too graphic for our family friendly forum, so I want to caution users as to the content of the article I'm linking:

https://www.businessinsider.com/robert- ... ame-2019-2

[idhawkman]

I don't understand how Kraft would be soliciting sex in Florida the day his team is playing in KC for a playoff game. That just doesn't make sense.

Here's the headline:

On Monday, probable cause affidavits made clear that one of the days Kraft allegedly visited the massage parlor in question was the morning of the AFC Championship between the Patriots and Chiefs.

But as I said, we'll wait and see the evidence before I pass judgement.

[RiverDog]

I don't understand how Kraft would be soliciting sex in Florida the day his team is playing in KC for a playoff game. That just doesn't make sense.

Here's the headline: On Monday, probable cause affidavits made clear that one of the days Kraft allegedly visited the massage parlor in question was the morning of the AFC Championship between the Patriots and Chiefs.

According to the police report, Kraft was out of the establishment in Jupiter, FL at 11:13am EST on 1/20. Gametime in KC was 6:40pm EST., so he had over 7 hours, and the flight time from Miami to Kansas City is 2 hours and 38 minutes. I would imagine that he flew on a private plane from somewhere near his home in West Palm Beach direct to KC. It's obviously very plausible for him to be in FL at 11:13am and in KC 6 or 7 hours later in time for kickoff.

It would be an easy story for police to check out if Kraft were on a plane or in KC during the times he was allegedly in Jupiter, and there's a very reasonable assumption to be made that Kraft would be screaming bloody murder in the event that he had a credible alibi.

But as I said, we'll wait and see the evidence before I pass judgement.

I'm not sure how much more evidence you need, but there's already a substantial amount, and until I hear him refute it by saying something like "that's not me in the video" or "I was never anywhere near the place" just a he hasn't done anything illegal" statement from a spokesman of his, I'm passing my judgment and saying he's as guilty as sin...pardon the pun.

[idhawkman]

I'm not sure how much more evidence you need, but there's already a substantial amount, and until I hear him refute it by saying something like "that's not me in the video" or "I was never anywhere near the place" just a he hasn't done anything illegal" statement from a spokesman of his, I'm passing my judgment and saying he's as guilty as sin...pardon the pun.

I always wait for the jury verdict in cases like this.

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure how much more evidence you need, but there's already a substantial amount, and until I hear him refute it by saying something like "that's not me in the video" or "I was never anywhere near the place" just a he hasn't done anything illegal" statement from a spokesman of his, I'm passing my judgment and saying he's as guilty as sin...pardon the pun.

I always wait for the jury verdict in cases like this.

Which may never come. As a matter of fact, I'd be very surprised if Kraft takes this to court as the evidence against him is overwhelming and he's yet to counter it with any evidence of his own. IMO they settle out of court, Kraft pays a fine and in lieu of community service, contributes a negotiated amount to a non profit that fights human trafficking.

I sincerely admire your steadfastness to wait until every single horse that might still be on the range comes home before you pass judgment, but at the same time, we'd be ignorant if we didn't at least recognize that the horses that are already in the stable look horrible.