Interesting quotes over the last couple days....

[Hawktawk]

We were beat much worse than the score would indicate. We were beat at the LoS on both sides by a
better talented and better coached team. It was pathetic and embarrassing to see how far we have fallen
and we added very little in the off season.

Yeah this here^^^^^The QB was 11-29 with a pick 6 minus Aaron Donald half the game while we were being beaten by Wofford and broken thumb Goff who McVeigh couldn't wait to unload. We couldn't stop the run or run ourselves. It was another non competitive playoff loss like 4 others since the worst pass call in super bowl history. This brutal non competitive loss with the score differential only 10 due to garbage time scores by Seattle was when my check engine light came on regarding the potential ceiling for this franchise right now.

I rationalized being down 31-0 to Carolina at the half, yeah we gave it an effort second half. Atlanta was harder to take, Russ was off, distracted. Just a bad game by almost everyone. 2018 vs Dallas..yeah if we had thrown the ball sooner than maybe but still its a broken record. Fall way behind, especially in the playoffs, come back late and pad some stats but the scoreboard is the only stat that matters. Green Bay in the divisional in 2019 same deal. Shut out in the first half and come roaring back. Carroll chose to punt on 4th and 11 near midfield late and Arod never gave it back and I'm sitting on my couch saying go for it, we will never get it back. But in reality it was possession from being a competitive game, probably our most competitive divisional game since SB 49.
Then last year. I had a bad feeling about this year after that game, the QB, the roster, the coaching. It was a prediction. not a winning formula right now.

[tarlhawk]

We were pushed around all game long and the score flattered us.
And this at home! You know, the place where we almost never lost?
It showed clearly how much poorer this team was than the championship teams of the past.
And Pete thinks a few bandaids will get us back to that level. We see that by the squandering of draft picks
for short term players as opposed to drafting and developing talent over a few years.

Being out of the playoffs for the first time since our 2017 season (where we finished 9-7) may do wonders for motivation...our losing season now gives "everyone" a "chip on their shoulder". I don't get so spun up over losing to a better team...or how we lost...we lost and hopefully learn from the bitter experience but losing is part of NFL parity...key injuries/a pandemic/questionable refs/bad weather/turnovers...many variables can overcome an NFL team in a given game.

Losing is not something our team is used to...especially our 2021 season. You can point out how other teams have a better "core of talent" as if calling ours garbage. Our team doesn't quit and has embarrassed many a talented team...if our talent is SO POOR and the talent in our own division is so rich (from having losing seasons)...it must be pretty embarrassing for the 49ers to be swept in both of our games when our talent level embarrasses our own "fans".

The last three drafts alone (yes that includes our 3 - pick 2021 draft) have yet to demonstrate that our GM has lost his touch...Some fans point at bad trades...but good trades/acquisitions?? How about Duane Brown/Gabe Jackson/Jacob Hollister/Quandre Diggs/DJ Reed (off waivers)/Justin Coleman/Brad McDougald. Some fans point out 1 yr rentals...J. Clowney (2019) we gave up a 3rd Rd pick/B.Mingo/Jacob Martin for his services...when we tried to negotiate another deal he wanted 20 Million (our highest offer was 18.5 and quickly dropped to 17 million as our GM held firm) Ziggy Ansah (2019) was a 9 million FA pick-up but plagued by injuries. And "another" trade often pointed at...
Jets trade Sheldon Richardson to Seattle Seahawks
Published: Sep 01, 2017 at 08:07 AM
Headshot_Author_Kevin-Patra_2020
Kevin Patra

Around the NFL Writer

The Seattle Seahawks' terrifying defense just hit the upgrade button.

The Seahawks acquired defensive lineman Sheldon Richardson from the New York Jets in exchange for receiver Jermaine Kearse and a 2018 second-round pick, both teams announced. The teams also swapped seventh-round selections in the deal.

With a lockdown secondary, rangy linebackers and relentless rushers off the edge, the Seahawks were already among the most devastating defenses in the NFL. If there was one minor weakness, it was on the interior of the defensive line, which lacked depth and a penetrating difference maker. The addition of Richardson fills the gap and then some.

Our GM offered 4-5 million but Richardson got the Browns to up the ante to 8 million so he was allowed to "walk"

[NorthHawk]

So are the Seahawks a better team now than they were even 5 years ago? Other than blind faith, what makes you think they are going to change when Pete is
in his last few years before retirement?
The answer is no, they are not better, not even close, they are markedly worse and the talent level has severely declined.
That's all on the FO (meaning JS and PC), who have presided over this decline. We simply aren't good enough to compete at the highest levels in the NFL. We are
slightly above average with Wilson, but less so without him.
We need a new regime with a fresh look at the roster and a long term plan to improve both the on field talent and coaching staff. Otherwise we will still be here
having the same discussion 5 years from now.

[tarlhawk]

So are the Seahawks a better team now than they were even 5 years ago? Other than blind faith, what makes you think they are going to change when Pete is
in his last few years before retirement?
The answer is no, they are not better, not even close, they are markedly worse and the talent level has severely declined.
That's all on the FO (meaning JS and PC), who have presided over this decline. We simply aren't good enough to compete at the highest levels in the NFL. We are
slightly above average with Wilson, but less so without him.
We need a new regime with a fresh look at the roster and a long term plan to improve both the on field talent and coaching staff. Otherwise we will still be here
having the same discussion 5 years from now.

I respectfully agree to disagree with your assessment...the "end of the season Hawks" have shown a reason for my optimism. Of course my own thoughts of what will likely occur will be opposing to your depressing "we are doomed" but there it is...my insight contrary to your own.
Pete has already made compromises on what he has proposed before. He knows the NFL has adopted rule changes that keep a consistent smothering defense from existing in modern times...teams continue to try...Bears...Packers...Ravens...Steelers even the Bucs and Cowboys.

The Key in modern times to stop the NFL emphasis of an explosive offense is the PASS RUSH...you have to disrupt the QB's comfort level (rush his pass or make him flee the pocket to create sacks or turnovers). Your pass rush disruption must also come with the ability to shut down the run. Your back seven must be very disciplined to "blanket" the opponents receiving targets for at least the first 3 sec of a play...to make the QB hesitate and force him to check down. Your def line has become more complicated which is why you see more hybrid linemen...the ability to play edge or slide to the interior...the speed of an edge with the punishing force of a DT. This type of hybrid is hard to find (outside of the higher 1rst rd draft selections) so you still need a rotational mix of pure edge DE's and pure punishing DT's.

Your LB quality has to also be elevated with athleticism and high football IQ not just tackling brutes. The ability to quickly diagnose when your opponent is setting up a screen while also being alert to play action forcing you to quickly commit to underneath coverage. Pete Carrol refers to this recognition ability as "Go" Your LB needs to quickly diagnose then GO...flow in the direction of your assessment/commitment.

Your secondary needs to switch from zone coverage to man with equal strengths to help cause that QB hesitation that enables your pass rush to deliver. The more you can understand what Pete Carrol is trying to accomplish with his defense the more you become appreciative.
Our GM tries to deliver on both sides...but under the restraint of Cap room and consistent poor draft positioning. Some of you like to point out that a few teams seem to pull it off with apparent ease but you don't know whats behind their selections. Perhaps their "skill" is more related to having OFF schemes/ DEF schemes less complicated for a desired "fit" so they can narrow their search while still having many targets to choose from. A simple example (the reality being more complicated) if your team is focused on speed from your LB corps your focus is easier than a GM looking for an excellent blend of speed and IQ.

[NorthHawk]

Our Pass Rush had declined the last 5 years. Our LB's aren't anywhere as good as the last 5 years, our secondary is worse than it was
5 years ago, and this from a Defensive minded HC. Sure, Pete may have changed a little but only because of rule changes, not because
it works better.

The fact is teams know what Defense they are going to see and can prepare for it for 6 full days. There is nothing new
under Pete's sun and even if they are forced to blitz more because the front 4 can't get it done, it's telegraphed and teams are ready for it.

Cap Room? We had somewhere around $55M last year before FA and the Defense didn't improve and they stood pat on the Pass rush. What
they did do with that is sign a bunch of backup players who contributed next to nothing towards improving the team. This year they have
a similar amount. Given the history, it would be foolish to expect things to be different. They haven't learned how to build an OL, they
seem to have lost how to build a DL, and the team lacks talent overall. Things have got to change.

[Hawktawk]

The pass rush seemed to improve later in the season didn’t it. Taylor’s a stud . It’s not the LOB but it’s not the worst by any means . I’ve had too much time on my hands and have watched pretty much every game over without beer goggles . This team isn’t the sum of its parts . That reflects on coaches , scheme , enthusiasm and effort . And it’s been off a whisker this year. We’ve been dominated 3 times . Vikes , Pack , Rams second game . Other than that we lost to 3 backups in one score games . Blew a 15 point lead vs the Titans . Even the Pack game was 3-0 in the 4th quarter . The Hawks offense has actually outscored its opponents by 12 points on a 6-10 team . By comparison the Raiders have been outscored by 70 points or something and with a win they will be in the playoffs . This team isn’t the sum of its parts . The execution is far worse than the roster .

[RiverDog]

The pass rush seemed to improve later in the season didn’t it. Taylor’s a stud . It’s not the LOB but it’s not the worst by any means . I’ve had too much time on my hands and have watched pretty much every game over without beer goggles . This team isn’t the sum of its parts . That reflects on coaches , scheme , enthusiasm and effort . And it’s been off a whisker this year. We’ve been dominated 3 times . Vikes , Pack , Rams second game . Other than that we lost to 3 backups in one score games . Blew a 15 point lead vs the Titans . Even the Pack game was 3-0 in the 4th quarter . The Hawks offense has actually outscored its opponents by 12 points on a 6-10 team . By comparison the Raiders have been outscored by 70 points or something and with a win they will be in the playoffs . This team isn’t the sum of its parts . The execution is far worse than the roster .

The "we lost a lot of close ones" logic is one of those fool's gold beliefs that perpetuates mediocrity. First of all, you can't expect every close game to break in our favor. We lost more than our fair share of close games this season, won more than our fair share last season. We're a little better than a 6-10 team this season, not as good as our 12-4 record might have indicated last season. It isn't one of those "you are what your record says you are" type of things. That's why I'm advocating major changes, including changes to our roster.

[Hawktawk]

Oh I get it . It’s a field goal league so the same can be said for most teams . We agree on last year . This may be a better roster than last year in some ways . The bounces haven’t gone our way this year and the overall QB play hasn’t been the same . I can’t remember the last game winning drive nor can I remember the last game winning stop . Not clutch . We need some roster tweaking but not a complete overhaul . It’s the leadership and the fate of Russ I question .

[tarlhawk]

Our Pass Rush had declined the last 5 years. ... they
seem to have lost how to build a DL, and the team lacks talent overall. Things have got to change.

Hmm biting edict...but is it true? Lets go all the way back to Pete's arrival in 2010 and see where our 5 year decline in pass rush has occurred
I'll define pass rush using two simple stats...Sacks and QB Hits. 2010 (37/79) 2011 (33/73) 2012 (36/84) 2013 (44/99) 2014 (37/85)
2015 (37/104) 2016 (42/104) 2017 (39/111) 2018 (43/109) 2019 (28/68) *hmm lost F.Clark and Clowney/Ziggy unable to replace*
2020 (46/109) 2021 (29/85) *only 1 game left a bad year for sure...so 2 bad years...where's the "steady" decline over past 5 years?? Our future line...Darrel Taylor and Rasheem Green/Carlos Dunlap as edges and Poona Ford/Bryan Mone/Myles Adams as DT's "lost how to build a Def Line" Are you on a bandwagon or just say stuff?

[tarlhawk]

. Our LB's aren't anywhere as good as the last 5 years, our secondary is worse than it was
5 years ago, and this from a Defensive minded HC.

Last 5 yrs for LB's ? 2017 (Wilhoite/Wags/KJ) *Wags and KJ in their prime* 2018-2020 (Wags/KJ with Mingo/Mayowa/Brooks sprinkled in from year to year...*the exception was Mychal Kendricks in 2019 when Seattle stayed in a 3 LB base* > I'm assuming your despair is B.Wagner is 5 yrs older and Jordyn Brooks still doesn't make us forget KJ?

Our secondary is worse...duh but not as a whole ...Corners DJ Reed and Tre Brown/Sidney Jones backed up by FS Quandre Diggs/SS Jamal Adams...and comparing it to the end of the Legion of Boom in 2017... LCB R.Sherman and SS Kam Chancellor went down...leaving FS Earl Thomas and RCB Jeremy Lane going forward. So your point is the Legion of Boom has yet to be replaced...the new modern era would've punished our LOB with flags left and right...Richard Sherman constantly complained of how the NFL punishes the Defense to let WR's run amok up until he left...

[NorthHawk]

Hmm biting edict...but is it true? Lets go all the way back to Pete's arrival in 2010 and see where our 5 year decline in pass rush has occurred
I'll define pass rush using two simple stats...Sacks and QB Hits. 2010 (37/79) 2011 (33/73) 2012 (36/84) 2013 (44/99) 2014 (37/85)
2015 (37/104) 2016 (42/104) 2017 (39/111) 2018 (43/109) 2019 (28/68) *hmm lost F.Clark and Clowney/Ziggy unable to replace*
2020 (46/109) 2021 (29/85) *only 1 game left a bad year for sure...so 2 bad years...where's the "steady" decline over past 5 years?? Our future line...Darrel Taylor and Rasheem Green/Carlos Dunlap as edges and Poona Ford/Bryan Mone/Myles Adams as DT's "lost how to build a Def Line" Are you on a bandwagon or just say stuff?

Are you trying to suggest the Pass Rush has stayed steady? How about the talent on the DL, is it getting better or staying steady?
If so, we might as well discontinue this conversation because you don't know what you are talking about.

Have you factored out the blitzes in your stats? We actually went into a season with Benson Mayowa and Bruce Irvin as our pass rushing DE's.
Seriously. We did that.
They are high effort guys, but they are rotational players at best and not starters. We had to start sending
Wagner on blitzes and traded for Adams who we then had to have blitz as well - all to get some sort of pressure on the QB. It finally
started to turn around a little when we traded for Dunlap, but curiously this year he only played about 30-40% of the plays.

What did we do to try to help our pass rush in the last 5 year?
We traded a 2nd for Richardson - then didn't re-sign him.
We traded a 3rd for Clowney - then didn't re-sign him.
We cut, not traded Jarran Reed who was our best interior DL. We didn't even try to get something for him which is stunning in its negligence.
We traded Frank Clark and still haven't found a replacement.

Nobody knows how Taylor and others will do. They may have reached their ceiling, we just don't know so to look to him as some type of savior is at this point just wishful thinking.
I hope Taylor turns out to be a stud, but after only seeing him for a year it's premature to make any projections. Green might end up being a journeyman rotational player and I
don't know what happened to Alton Robinson this year but he seems to have regressed. Dunlap although effective wasn't used much this year and Mone/Ford/Woods are mostly
run stoppers, not pressure up the middle pass rushers. They are steady players but generally not impact players in the pass rush.

There really isn't anyone on our DL that opposing teams have to look out for or game plan against.
There used to be Avril, Bennett, and Clemons but now who are the guys that can be depended upon to bring pressure? Maybe Dunlap and maybe Taylor, but nobody who other teams
have to point to and say we have to stop this guy. Good teams have those types of players and we used to as well but now we don't.
And it all falls to the feet of Pete and John as they have presided over this decline in talent. And it's a shame.

[tarlhawk]

Are you trying to suggest the Pass Rush has stayed steady? How about the talent on the DL, is it getting better or staying steady?
If so, we might as well discontinue this conversation because you don't know what you are talking about.
Have you factored out the blitzes in your stats? We actually went into a season with Benson Mayowa and Bruce Irvin as our pass rushing DE's.
Seriously. We did that.
What did we do to try to help our pass rush in the last 5 year?
We traded a 2nd for Richardson - then didn't re-sign him.
We traded a 3rd for Clowney - then didn't re-sign him.
We cut, not traded Jarran Reed who was our best interior DL. We didn't even try to get something for him which is stunning in its negligence.
We traded Frank Clark and still haven't found a replacement.
I hope Taylor turns out to be a stud, but after only seeing him for a year it's premature to make any projections. Green might end up being a journeyman rotational player and I don't know what happened to Alton Robinson this year but he seems to have regressed. Dunlap although effective wasn't used much this year and Mone/Ford/Woods are mostly
run stoppers, not pressure up the middle pass rushers. They are steady players but generally not impact players in the pass rush.

And it all falls to the feet of Pete and John as they have presided over this decline in talent. And it's a shame.

You haven't proven your right...nor that my opinions "prove" I don't know what I'm talking about. Our Def ranks 12th in 3rd down % allowed and 6th in red zone TD % allowed...Is this accomplished with a "poor" pass rush effectiveness? Is that the Legion of Boom manning our secondary? I speculate that you don't know what you are talking about..."did I factor out blitzes" ?

Many NFL teams use an effective blitz to flush an opposing QB out of the pocket to generate sacks...or "rush" his pass for an interception. Sacks and QB hits is effective at showing a pass rush...the more you rotate the less development of individual sack leaders. S.Richardson and Clowney weren't "let go" they wanted more money than our GM wanted to pay...such is contract negotiations on the business end...are you saying we should just pay whatever a player demands?

J. Reed was a reluctant cap hit...do you have insider knowledge of how their "talks" broke down...when he left he wasn't able to be traded unless we assigned a "Franchise" tag first...that didn't work with F.Clark so why would it work with J. Reed? Jarran Reed was a pocket pushing DT because the year we drafted him was a deep year for Def Line types and grabbing him in the 2nd Rd was a bonus as he had 1rst Rd value. Of course he realized this so choices had to be made by our GM...we were hoping for a team friendly deal

Rasheem Green and LJ Collier are able to rotate inside when we try to ratchet up pressure from the interior. We don't have the luxury or the draft capital to have 4 such players so we have some guys straight edge type and some guys straight Run Stuffing DT's. By the time we picked 29th in the 1rst Rd the Def Line well had gone "dry" (only one DL taken in entire 2nd Rd) During the draft it was rumored we wanted Montez Sweat but Wash selected him with the 26th selection...so our typical late Rd selections cause us to miss out...so LJ Collier was seen as a blue collar type pick who might be able to slide to an interior position...I think LJ was a "healthy scratch" because we were actively trying to trade him (and you weren't going to attract any takers if the target gets injured)

Your comments on Dunlap are more related to effectiveness...he had a long streak of disappearing from the stat sheet...so he started losing def snaps but now he is making impact again.

[Hawktawk]

LJ was a bad draft pick period . He’s getting almost no snaps and doing nothing when he does . I agree on a lot of the other opinions but no defending that pick . Health isn’t an excuse . He’s a bum . I think we’ve gotten pressure on QBs , it’s not the players in general but LJ Collier was a terrible pick

[tarlhawk]

We actually went into a season with Benson Mayowa and Bruce Irvin as our pass rushing DE's.
Seriously. We did that. They are high effort guys, but they are rotational players at best and not starters.

These pre-draft scouting reports seem to bear out what we tried to do with B.Irvin...played him at Sam LB and brought him to the line to pass rush during passing downs.

Bruce Irvin Scouting Report

Bruce Irvin, OLB, West Virginia
Height: 6’2″
Weight: 245

Strengths:

Explosive pass rusher
Huge potential and upside
Good hand use
Solid overall production
Best speed rush in the draft
No injury history
Playmaker who gives maximum effort
Extremely athletic, should test off the charts

Weaknesses:

Undersized
Character and intelligence concerns
Not stout at the point of attack and offers little in run defense
Stiff athlete, doesn’t project to be able to drop into coverage well
Struggles to disengage from blockers
Tweener that doesn’t have a true position
Plays with inconsistent leverage

NFL Comparison: Aaron Maybin

Bruce Irvin is a tough prospect to gauge. Irvin exploded onto the college football scene in 2010 as a junior JUCO transfer and had 14 sacks, second most in college football. He followed it up this year with half that many but his numbers are still respectable given he was seeing a lot more double and triple teams. Spent time in a juvenile detention center. Irvin dropped out of high school before getting his GED and moving on to the community college ranks. He also committed and de-committed to both Tennessee and Arizona State before finally going to West Virginia. Irvin is still very raw as a football player, with only two years at the major college level, and will need to be developed. Currently, he profiles best as a third down pass rusher for either a team that plays the wide nine scheme like the Lions or as an OLB on a team that doesn’t have big size requirements like the Jets.

Career Stats
Year Games Tackles TFL Sacks FF
2011 13 40 14.5 8 3
2010 13 21 14 14 2

Bruce Irvin Scouting Report, DE/OLB West Virginia Mountaineers
by Jesse Bartolis 10 years ago

Measurables:
Listed at 6’3 245 pounds, 33 3/8″ arms, 9 5/8″ hands
4.50 40 yard dash, 23 bench press reps, 33.5″ vert, 123″ broad jump, 6.70 3 cone drill, 4.03 20 yard shuttle

Stats:
2010 stats
Irvin was dominating in 2010. He had 14 sacks and 14 tackles for loss. He was often unblockable. He was not a full time player though. He added 10 pounds to his frame to play defensive end this year. He’ll be moved to OLB in the N.F.L
Good first step….great speed…extremely productive…good motor…no serious injury history…instinctive…good pass rushing arsenal…versatile could play 4-3 OLB in the N.F.L on certain teams…really uses his hands well to shed blocks…

Cons:
Started at JUCO and played as a specialist last year, lacks a ton of experience (not a huge deal)…Too small to play DE in the N.F.L….a little small for OLB in the N.F.L….Hasn’t shown enough yet in his run stopping abilities…can’t do that as a defensive end in the league…can he handle more attention vs other big time prospects? This remains to be seen…Isn’t great in zone coverage…can get too wide in his pass rush (that’s ok for certain schemes like the Eagles or Colts…not great for other teams)

Quick thoughts:
Irvin has tremendous value as a guy who can rush the passer and while I don’t see this advocated too often.I think he is a great candidate to play SAM linebacker in a 43 defense because he plays the well run despite his size and he can still rush the passer from that position.

Projected round:
2

Sayre’s initial Scouting report:

Bruce Irvin is one of the most underrated prospects in this year’s crop of players, and probably rightfully so. He had been in junior college up until last season, where he was an All-American defensive end/linebacker hybrid with 72 tackles, 16 sacks, and 21 tackles for loss. His prowess at junior college helped him wind up at West Virginia where he was strictly a third down pass rusher, so he didn’t see a ton of action as a starter, but he made the most of his limited opportunities. He finished the year with just 21 tackles, but he had 14 sacks and two forced fumbles. He is truly unstoppable as a pass rusher, and he is getting a chance to start this year as a defensive end for the Mountaineers, so we will have to see how he holds up as a full-time starter, but for now, I really like him as a prospect.

[tarlhawk]

LJ was a bad draft pick period . He’s getting almost no snaps and doing nothing when he does . I agree on a lot of the other opinions but no defending that pick . Health isn’t an excuse . He’s a bum . I think we’ve gotten pressure on QBs , it’s not the players in general but LJ Collier was a terrible pick

Yes he was but as I mentioned the well had gone dry when Wash took Montez Sweat...just 3 picks higher than us. We should have traded down for more selections much higher than our own...but perhaps we tried and had no takers...all one can do is speculate since draft plans/goals are tight lipped.

[Hawktawk]

Drafting for need instead of BPA was not good there .