Re-make, Re-model

[Hawktawk]

I agree with that approach Rd. The real turd in the punchbowl is Gilliam. He and sowell = half a tackle. For all the criticism of Fant the guy took his first snaps of his life as a left tackle in the big show. He never played the game. Yet he had some periods of great play. As the smoke clears from the flameout in Atlanta it's easy to see his upside. He needs reps and muscle. .Britt and glow are fine. Moving Ifedi to Rt is intriguing.

[obiken]

I think we can all agree that Britt has found his home at center.

[RiverDog]

I think we can all agree that Britt has found his home at center.

I think that's safe to say, obi. But no one on the OL has performed well enough to be considered untouchable.

[Hawktawk]

Britt is untouchable .
For all the pining for oft injured unger I remember bill Polian after 48 saying "he has a big name "
as pot roast abused him for 4 quarters . Britt is far nastier and stronger.Glow would also be tough to replace.

We can say nobody is untouchable all day long but fine, who's the replacement?

The Hawks made this deal with the devil to pay everyone but the line and they are stuck with it.
Reps and continuity instead of recycling different mediocre guys in and out seems the most prudent course at this time unless a tremendous draft prospect or can't miss free agent emerges.

[NorthHawk]

I agree with RT.
I said earlier that it was the key for improvement and think we should try to get a road grader or at least someone like Breno who also brings the nasty.
His attitude set the tone for being "bullies" like Schneider called them.

[Socalhawk]

The oline must be a priority this year. They need at least 2 guys. Fant looks more like a RT and they need to move him and draft Lamp for LT in the 1st. Hopefully Dorian Johnson is available in the 2nd as he can play RG and backup at RT. With Fant at RT it's easier to support him with a TE.

There are a couple of vet free agents coming off their rookie contracts they should go after for LG. Building an offense starts with the oline. It's been neglected for too long. Wilson deserves better.

[NorthHawk]

The knock on Lamp for T is his short arms. I doubt we would see him as a candidate because they use measureables to determine value.
My personal opinion is productivity. Give a player a chance to compete at LT and show he's not a liability, but I really think Fant is the equivalent of a 1st round pick as of today.
He showed some games he can play at the NFL level, but his lack of experience meant he was very inconsistent and taken advantage of by seasoned veterans. That's the hallmark of a rookie in the NFL outside of Walter Jones or Orlando Pace type of prospects.
We want size and power at RT, but Fant is less than 300lbs. He is more athletic than powerful which is better for LT. We might be able to find a RT that could fit the profile in FA or the draft or maybe another big Guard and as others have said, move Ifedi to the outside. The coaches have said Ifedi is staying put, so it would seem an addition of a RT would be what's in the cards. Especially so considering they couldn't settle on Gilliam or Sowell there.

[Hawktawk]

Fant will pump iron and get stronger. He was playing basketball a year ago for crying out loud.
At least give him a shot. He was better than Gilliam or sowell without ever taking a snap in a football game ever!!!!
It's worth giving him a chance. Gil Brandt said on NFL network he thought it was a brilliant move that will pay off in spades long term.

[NorthHawk]

But keep Fant at LT. He's got the build and feet of a LT and he's not a bruiser as we need at RT.
Why did we cut Evans if we need a veteran Guard? I still don't get that move...

[obiken]

But keep Fant at LT. He's got the build and feet of a LT and he's not a bruiser as we need at RT.
Why did we cut Evans if we need a veteran Guard? I still don't get that move...

Oh because its illegal for us to have a decent Offensive Lineman, might make the rest of them look as bad as they are. They got beat so many times it was just puke.

[Socalhawk]

I've seen many OTs with ideal physical attributes who can't pass block worth crap. Pass blocking is all about technique and feet. Arm length is about range and keeping the defender off your body. That one inch of arm length can be compensated by good hand technique and quick feet. In terms of technique Lamp is ahead of most of the higher rated prospects. Lamp played well against Alabama and LSUs defensive fronts.

Sure Fant has the build but there still is the question if he can ever become a good LT. What bothers me is that I didn't see the progressive development during the season. If all he needed was experience he should have finished the season better. Pass protection is the hardest thing for the online men to develop. Many simply never do. Lamp is already at a level that Fant may never reach. How many hits does Wilson have to take before a change is made. Let Fant prove hes a starter before he is.

Enough of these OJT type of oline starters. The team deserves better.

[Hawk Sista]

I love the "idea" of Fant working out great and he still may. I cannot imagine facing the experienced defenders he faced all year. He was out of his league Saturday, that was pretty clear.

But replacing inexperience with more inexperience seems like we may just be kicking the can down the road. If George can get stronger in the offseason, great. My boyfriend Garry has to go. I like the potential of the interior line as it is. So, I'm for finding an RT in FA, if there is one & drafting competition and depth elsewhere.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I think everyone is on the same page with the O-line. Interior looks promising. Hang on to Fant and Gilliam. Fant is worth keeping just to see what a real offseason will do for him. He may not pan out, but way too early to dump him. Let him compete for a spot. Gilliam is underwhelming, but he is experienced in the system, so let him compete, too, and he'll likely just be a back up. As for what they can find in the draft and FA, that's anybody's guess.

[Hawktawk]

I love the "idea" of Fant working out great and he still may. I cannot imagine facing the experienced defenders he faced all year. He was out of his league Saturday, that was pretty clear.

But replacing inexperience with more inexperience seems like we may just be kicking the can down the road. If George can get stronger in the offseason, great. My boyfriend Garry has to go. I like the potential of the interior line as it is. So, I'm for finding an RT in FA, if there is one & drafting competition and depth elsewhere.

Ya Sis Fant was out of his league but lots more experienced tackles were out of their league against Vic Beasley as his season showed. We will see how Green Bay handles him as a yardstick.

[NorthHawk]

David Bahktiari is having one of his best years at LT being named as a 2nd team All Pro, and he's played 62 regular season games in his 4 year career.
If Beasley dominates, then all we can say is he's a monster. We might not be able to say very much if it's a stalemate as Fant in comparison is so green.

[RiverDog]

I've seen many OTs with ideal physical attributes who can't pass block worth crap. Pass blocking is all about technique and feet. Arm length is about range and keeping the defender off your body. That one inch of arm length can be compensated by good hand technique and quick feet. In terms of technique Lamp is ahead of most of the higher rated prospects. Lamp played well against Alabama and LSUs defensive fronts.

Sure Fant has the build but there still is the question if he can ever become a good LT. What bothers me is that I didn't see the progressive development during the season. If all he needed was experience he should have finished the season better. Pass protection is the hardest thing for the online men to develop. Many simply never do. Lamp is already at a level that Fant may never reach. How many hits does Wilson have to take before a change is made. Let Fant prove hes a starter before he is.

Enough of these OJT type of oline starters. The team deserves better.

I love your contributions, socal. I hope you stick around.

[Socalhawk]

Right now the Hawks look to play more zone blocking with occasional man mixed in when they run the ball. Each scheme requires a different skill set. Zone needs linemen who emphasize power over mobility to move the D front horizontally. Then you need a RB that most call a one cut and go with good field vision to see the holes created as the D front 7 moves. The RB then must have the agility to adjust and the acceleration to exploit the hole. Normally a smaller RB can be used well in this scheme.

In a power run scheme you need oline men with quickness and mobility to pull and make second level blocks, i. e. more athletic line men. In this scheme you need a RB with quickness and agility but most of all power to break tackles. Rawls can play in both schemes but would thrive in a power run attack. This is what Norv Turner used and why with the right RB and oline backs like Tomlinson, and Michael Turner ran wild.

Bevel and Carroll need to decide on a style and just stick with it. This is how you simplify the offense for a young new oline. Normally with young oline in a new unit you play a zone scheme as that unlike the Dawgs most schools run zone so its what they know.

The Hawks passing game should be predicated by how they run. They want a deep strike vertical passing game? Then they need to be a man blocked power run attack with their deep strike coming off play action. Or if they want a quicker shorter pass attack run zone blocked scheme with the pass coming off more of an option look. The passing will be short to medium ranges with big plays coming off of YAC.

Before this year that short to medium zone scheme was the best fit for Wilson. But this year he proved he is a good pocket passer with excellent escapability. Moving to a man blocked scheme now makes sense as it will open up the entire field in the pass attack making it harder to defend. Also it is easier on the oline in pass protection.

So why am I talking about this? Because when you draft oline scheme fit is paramount. A perfect example are the Chargers. They are trying to use a man scheme when they drafted a zone scheme RB in Gordon. Their oline are all zone blocker types who lack the ability to play a power scheme. Then they wonder why their run game struggles?

Carroll and Bevel must decide on a scheme and simply stick to it to simplify things on offense.

[Hawktawk]

You should be the O coordinator socal. I bow at your knowledge of the intricacies of NFL offensive strategies and your ability to break it down. I have personally never liked the ZB concept.
What do you think of Darrell bevels body of work here and his game management? PC says his critics don't know what they are talking about. You know what you are talking about. What's your take?

[NorthHawk]

I said pretty much the same thing a few weeks ago, but not so eloquently.
Why, if these guys are so young and (according to Cable) unprepared to play a the NFL level is he teaching them a complicated scheme? It seems to me that it introduces a level of complexity that can hinder their development or at least steepen the learning curve. As well, they have drafted and signed OL who were very strong and have a high level of explosion. It would seem that drive blocking would be a better fit and as well, the ZBS with it's lateral requirements can impact that explosion factor. Combine that with young Running Backs and there can be some problems with the necessary timing required for a successful run play or run game.

[Socalhawk]

Here is an example.

A power running attack is largely between the tackles with or without a FB. In this case the opposing D is in their base or better yet in a nickel. Most defenses give you a 4 man line look on 1st down, even the 3-4 schemes as most run a 3-4 hybrid. The hybrid aligns the same as a 4-3 but one of the "ends" is an OLB. It's a 1 gap scheme just like the 4-3. In this scenario Rawls does his thing and as we have seen so many times he gets 7 or 8 yds.

On 2nd down the Hawks show run, with with 2 wide outs, TE on the end of the line, a FB or Hback in the back field with Rawls. Wilson is under center. Russ' read is the alignment of the safeties. If one cheats up then he knows hes got single coverage on one side, so he will play action and look off the single deep safety before taking the shot to the other side. If both safeties stay back in a 2 deep look then its a straight hand off audible. If Wilson gets quick pressure, the outlets are the RB in the short middle, and the TE who goes to the flats after his chip block. This gives Russ a run option and 3 pass options and he can always pull it down if nothing is there and get the first himself. Most of the time that deep sideline shot will be there. Also the route option for the Z WR would be to break inside to draw the safety with him.

Thats one variation of what I'm talking about. Force the D to defend the whole field.

The reason I bring up the 3-4 hybid is because its what the Rams will switch to under Wade Phillips.

[Socalhawk]

I just heard that the Chargers fired DC John Pagano. He's an outstanding DC who was mentored for years under Wade Phillips. He also runs a hybrid 3-4, which aligns like a 4-3, so the Hawks already have the players. His game plans have often been called brilliant. He doesn't just line up in the same predictable cover 2 scheme. The oline doesn't know if its a 3,4 or 5 man rush or even who's coming and who isn't. The QB has a very hard time reading the secondary...is it man / cover 1 or zone or man outside and zone under.

The Hawk D is too simplistic and predictable making it much easier for an elite QB to make his reads quickly. The majority 3-4 teams run the hybrid which gives them the advantages of a 3-4 and 4-3 both. Its what the Ravens used during their defensive hay days.

The Legion of Boom was great but the scheme was predicated on perfect execution. So when starters are out for what ever reason it begins to break down. IMO it's time to move on from its simplistic predictability. I've watched games where the D never showed the same look twice pre-snap during the entire game.

The game is constantly evolving, so must the Hawks to not keep pace but to get out ahead of the curve again both on offense and defense.

[NorthHawk]

Not gonna happen.
Pete has his Defense and it's predicated on being simple, but executing correctly as well as having player ability fit the scheme.
Part of our problem is we've lost a lot of talent within our system the last few years and adding the Offensive woes to it has caused some stress fractures.
It's not broken by any means, but add some support from the Offense and an OLB to play the Irvin role along with a CB that can play somewhere near Maxwell's standard and we will be fine.

[Hawktawk]

I just heard that the Chargers fired DC John Pagano. He's an outstanding DC who was mentored for years under Wade Phillips. He also runs a hybrid 3-4, which aligns like a 4-3, so the Hawks already have the players. His game plans have often been called brilliant. He doesn't just line up in the same predictable cover 2 scheme. The oline doesn't know if its a 3,4 or 5 man rush or even who's coming and who isn't. The QB has a very hard time reading the secondary...is it man / cover 1 or zone or man outside and zone under.

The Hawk D is too simplistic and predictable making it much easier for an elite QB to make his reads quickly. The majority 3-4 teams run the hybrid which gives them the advantages of a 3-4 and 4-3 both. Its what the Ravens used during their defensive hay days.

The Legion of Boom was great but the scheme was predicated on perfect execution. So when starters are out for what ever reason it begins to break down. IMO it's time to move on from its simplistic predictability. I've watched games where the D never showed the same look twice pre-snap during the entire game.

The game is constantly evolving, so must the Hawks to not keep pace but to get out ahead of the curve again both on offense and defense.

Socal
I'm with you 100% on this one^^^^
The Hawks defensive strategy of absolute simplicity, lining up the same and not moving has become increasingly ineffective as the LOB ages and gets injured.
In 2015 when Kam held out and the disastrous FA signing Kerry Williams was toasted over and over the team surrendered 2 17 point 4th quarter leads early in the season. That was following a 14 point 4th quarter that was the difference in SB 49 with the defense the walking wounded.2015 was also was the year that tight ends began gashing the defense exploiting the weaknesses in the strategy, something they havent corrected.

This year the loss of Thomas as well as the undisclosed injury to Sherman caused the wheels to come off completely. The defensive strategy down the stretch this season reminded me of Mike Holmgren's 4-12 swan song in 2008.
Every receiver was injured but he refused to adjust his strategy to compensate for the personnel on the field leading to the worst season in many years.

Like Knox used to say "play the hand you are dealt" Great players make great coaches regardless of the scheme. If there are weak links you better have a plan B to avoid giving up 36 points in the divisional round.
That said Richard will be back and I liked some of the things he did.
Its up to teflon PC to get it though his head that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a better result.

[Socalhawk]

Thats my point. It impossible to just plug new players into this system without serious dropoffs. Look at what happened at the safety. Over the long haul it isn't sustainable.

Look at the Patriots a model of consistency. Beli-cheat's system in complicated but its almost plug and play. Why? Because his players aren't all around all pros, but they are role players that are good within their roles. His system is tweaked to play to his guys strengths instead of trying to expect players to play beyond their heads.

there is a measurement used by defensive coaches for measuring drives against them. The Hawks are in the bottom 3rd. What it indicates is an inability to get off the field quickly...i. e. 3 and outs. That in turn limits the number of possessions the offense will have. The team is an integrated system where what happens to one half affects the other.

This is why I feel they need to move to a deep strike offense and a far more aggressive attacking defense. They already have the players, it a schematic and philosophical change.

[NorthHawk]

So you want to change the #1 scoring Defense the previous 4 years in a row and top 5 this year after all the injuries?
Good move. It's like doing a complete change of the OL within a championship window.

Are you actually a Rams fan in stealth mode?

[Hawktawk]

It was # 1 before the injuries. To be # 5 means it was a disaster in the second half against good offenses. Green Bay, Az and then Atlanta sandblasted them for 30 plus . Games vs the woeful rams and 9ers helped it from being statistically much worse.even the Detroit game was artificially impressive due to at least 4 drops by wide open Detroit receivers and a clear pass interference by shead in field goal range .

SoCal is exactly on it. It's the staunch defenders of the status quo that are whistling in the graveyard . Maybe getting a road rash in the divisional two years in a row is ok with them. Pc is great but he's not belichick for damn sure.

[c_hawkbob]

If we were #1 the last 4 years and #1 this year before the injuries isn't it the very definition of reactionary to make fundamental changes based on post injury performance?

[mykc14]

If we were #1 the last 4 years and #1 this year before the injuries isn't it the very definition of reactionary to make fundamental changes based on post injury performance?

Not only that but we have dealt with injuries before and still ended the season as the #1 D. ET is a great player but he doesn't take us from the #1 D to the #30 D. Furthermore somebody playing our D scheme as made it to the NFCCG 3 out of the last 4 years and if Alt makes the SB somebody using our D scheme will represent the NFC in the SB. To call for a major change in D scheme seems premature to me.

[Hawktawk]

Did we or did we not give up 30+ to the last 3 high powered offenses we faced???????


And yes Earl Thomas is that good. He was missed that badly. With him out the team never recorded another pick the rest of the season , a stretch of 7 straight games .

If he comes back heathy it will be like it was the last couple of years. But the guy who never misses a game missed one (loss)then came back and got hurt immediately with a freak collision I was on hand to witness unfortunately .

He threatened retirement as we know. When that dude is gone it's going to change unless they find a replacement
To be fair to Richard he was more agressive with linebacker blitzes etc.

But short of cloning guys like Sherman chancellor and ET it's going to have to be done differently soon or the offense needs to score 35 a game or its championship quality team over.

[c_hawkbob]

Did we or did we not give up 30+ to the last 3 high powered offenses we faced???????

Was that or was that not post injuries?

And yes Earl Thomas is that good. He was missed that badly. With him out the team never recorded another pick the rest of the season , a stretch of 7 straight games .

I agree, I think Earl is that good too

If he comes back heathy it will be like it was the last couple of years. But the guy who never misses a game missed one (loss)then came back and got hurt immediately with a freak collision I was on hand to witness unfortunately .

It was a simple fracture of a non weight bearing bone, physically Earl will be fine.

He threatened retirement as we know.

So what. It was as reactionary as this thread is, he said it immediately after the injury when all guys are contemplating every possible path forward.

When that dude is gone it's going to change unless they find a replacement
To be fair to Richard he was more agressive with linebacker blitzes etc.
But short of cloning guys like Sherman chancellor and ET it's going to have to be done differently soon or the offense needs to score 35 a game or its championship quality team over.

While I agree that Earl and Sherm are going to be extremely hard to replace I think you're 5 years early with the doom and gloom: they are still in their 20's and will be this time next year.

We took some hits this year, but all we have to do is right the ship, not abandon the damn thing.

[mykc14]

Did we or did we not give up 30+ to the last 3 high powered offenses we faced???????


And yes Earl Thomas is that good. He was missed that badly. With him out the team never recorded another pick the rest of the season , a stretch of 7 straight games .

If he comes back heathy it will be like it was the last couple of years. But the guy who never misses a game missed one (loss)then came back and got hurt immediately with a freak collision I was on hand to witness unfortunately .

He threatened retirement as we know. When that dude is gone it's going to change unless they find a replacement
To be fair to Richard he was more agressive with linebacker blitzes etc.

But short of cloning guys like Sherman chancellor and ET it's going to have to be done differently soon or the offense needs to score 35 a game or its championship quality team over.

I am not disputing the fact that the D was not playing well the last half of the year, really after ETs injury. I still do not believe that, if he would have retired, we would be the #30 D next year. PCs D has been too good for too long. We might not be the #1 D without ET but we would still be a top half of the league D and probably top 10. Where as PC will go cheap on the OL he will not go cheap with his safety and he would break the bank to bring somebody in that can allow them to still run their D.

You looking at the last few games of this year and saying the D needs to be changed would be like somebody looking at the last few games last year and calling Bevell a genius. Our O was clicking at a historic rate. Did Bevell all of the sudden become a genius or were those few weeks outliers? I believe the last few weeks of this season were outliers for our D, given the previous 4.5 years they were #1 in the league. As for our O I believe it can be a top 10 O but it isn't a historically good offense.